I've been justifiably reamed here before -- I think by Sir Kraab -- for repeating this tried and true rule: don't discuss astrology with girls.
Do we need to have another thread mocking beliefs in stupid shit?
Sure. Look, maybe I don't really get this whole "astrology" thing, but at this point is there a reason everyone is still reading the astrology columns of the newspaper era? Most of the stuff they post is neither compellingly novel, nor well-researched, nor well-argued. Admittedly, I don't read those folx every day, mostly because, when I do see one of them linked here or somewhere else and I click through, it's this same mediocre, counter-factual wanking. Am I missing something?
Most of the stuff they post is neither compellingly novel, nor well-researched, nor well-argued. Admittedly, I don't read those folx every day, mostly because, when I do see one of them linked here or somewhere else and I click through, it's this same mediocre, counter-factual wanking.
Are you talking about the astrology column or the entire newspaper?
My current theory is that it works for everything, everywhere.
This is in effect doing the same thing as giving a class horoscopes, determining their acceptance of it, and then showing they all got the same one, but at a populational level.
I also reject the Babylonian astrological hegemony. Maybe those fuckers are the ones who had it wrong.
You know who's really pissed off? Himmler.
You know, I have never given any credence whatsoever to astrology, partly because it seemed logically so implausible, but also because the traits attributed to my sign were totally off. But I have to say! My new sign fits me exactly! Also, my horoscope for today was right on.
Google is now actively promoting philistinism. I typed in "himmler astrology" and it automatically searched for "hitler astrology" instead.
Oh no! What does this mean for Reagan's legacy?
10: I really hate how Google does that now. Even for words in quotes. I frequently find myself having to do explicitly exclude the words it thinks I really want in order to make it look for the thing I actually typed.
1: I don't think anyone should discuss astrology with anybody, regardless of gender.
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Some foolio just gunned onto our street and parked, immediately cutting off the car's lights. Shortly there followed a police cruiser, lights ablaze.
Trying to outrun the cops in a beat-up '98 Honda Civic: probably ill-advised.
Aaand now there's two more cop cars.
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Zodiacal redistricting is kind of like school redistricting, but without entitled assholes who come up all sorts of ideas why their precious children shouldn't go to a school with more poor kids when they're really just thinking about what it's going to do to their property values (yes, I just got back from a pitched battle in the class war redistricting meeting).
That said, maybe Sagittarians with substantial investments in Sagittarius charm bracelets or belt buckles or whatever will raise holy hell over being reassigned to that bullshit new made-up sign. But they probably won't, because they're good-natured and devoted to acquiring a deeper understanding of things.
Aaand now there's two more cop cars.
Felony stop? (cops stay back, use cars as cover, and have the occupants exit one at a time at gunpoint)
Felony stops are fun.
17: The lead cop ended up just issuing a ticket, it seems. No one but the police exited their respective vehicles. Our cops are (and I guess this is a good thing?) bored.
Hey, I've seen this mentioned recently.
This being the OP, not the cops shooting people outside Stanley's house.
The first-on-the-scene police did search up and down the street looking for something tossed out, so who knows what preceded the stop. I overheard the officer say something like "going sixty" which, if referring to speed, would meet the definition of reckless driving on any road within a mile of here.
19: See? heebie's mean. (Actually I didn't click that link earlier.)
21.2: We've shown she's meaner than you, at least.
Or they couldn't get in that car. '98 Honda races down a street and darks out quick, something's going on. Guy with warrants, dope, gun, stolen property, something. If they couldn't see it or reason to get in that car, my guess is drugs.
The real art is to get them to volunteer the search themselves. "We're not involved in anything like that, go ahead and search if you'd like".
23: "These aren't the drugs you're looking for."
would meet the definition of reckless driving on any road within a mile of here.
Here that's technically a misdemeanor rather than an infraction, as is not having your license in your possession, driving on a suspended DL, etc. Arrestable offense means that driver gets pulled out, cuffed, and searched. Impound gets you inside the car for inventory. Passenger search is trickier. Warrant, consent, maybe a Terry Frisk if they're flying gang colors or something.
Regardless, I'm sure that tonight's foolio being white, female, and did I mention white, had nothing to do with her treatment by the local Po-Po.
Good work, Star Tribune/Boston Globe/internet! Way to reprint a misinformed story without checking a damn thing. I had expected better from you, internet. No, wait, not better, exactly this.
What more do you need to know?
I'm sure that tonight's foolio being white, female, and did I mention white, had nothing to do with her treatment by the local Po-Po.
Stupid of them if they treated her differently. Chicks are given contraband and weapons to hold all the time on the belief that they're less likely to get searched.
9- I've never given astrology credence, but now! Now, my sign is represented by a dude with magical powers holding a gigantic serpent... laydeez.
Also, these new calculations still don't take into account the planet Rupert Eris. Or maybe they actually did; I skimmed the article.
I really hate how Google does that now. Even for words in quotes.
Ooh, that makes me mad. Hey, Google! You know what putting a search in quotes means? It means "search for this exact string". Not "search for the same fucking string you'd have searched for if I hadn't gone out of my way to put quotes around it".
re: 31
Ditto. Ebay does it too, which can be annoying if you are searching for, say, a fairly esoteric brand name that happens to be similar to a generic term. Also, iPhone auto-correction which is implemented in a stupid way, i.e. can't be turned off without turning off spell-checking altogether. No doubt someone'll claim that all this oppressive hand-holding improves the user experience for idiots who can't type, but it's fucking annoying all the same.
what percentage of people do not consent to searches? 5 percent?
Stanley, your peers are in their twenties. They are expected to like odd stuff. See previous G6 discussion.
Rob Brezny is outraged by the media's distortions about astrology. (Back when I used to read The Stranger in Seattle, I thought Brezny wasn't actually serious.)
don't discuss astrology with girls.
Because girls are mean. They'll go to their friends and say, "You know that guy over there? He wanted to talk about [whisper] astrology.
And their friends will all go, "Bleeeuurghhh!"
(I wish I were an Ophiuchan; just to annoy people.)
chris y: Me too. That would be so great. I can just imagine the conversations when your zodiac sign comes up. You could rant about how you use the sidereal zodiac, unlike those tropical charlatans.
Which reminds me that there's a great Supremes track denying astrology. A US B side, I think, and a big hit on the northern soul scene. No Matter What Sign You Are. Check out the fuzzbox guitar part. Basically, sex vs. astrology, sex wins.
(Tasting note: annoying radio DJ at the beginning. You may wish to skip ahead.)
With an 11-28 birthday, I would be right on the Scorprio-Ophiuchus cusp except I'm still pretty much a textbook Sagittarius, so. Brezsny is correct about the precession: this same article pops up every few years but never mentions that 1) this has been known for centuries and 2) the zodiac isn't determined by actual constellations, but by dividing the sky into 12 equal slices. The constellation names are merely shorthand and could just as easily be A through L.
I once wrote a precession calculator to convert the position of the metal pointers on astrolabes into a date calculated from the Ptolemaic Almagest. It was a cool hack, and surprisingly accurate on the four of five I initially tested it with. Then I passed it to my research colleague at the time to actually use, and it turned out it was wildly useless.
But yeah, the precession thing has been known since time immemorial.
38 is surprisingly sincere. Also the post title made me laugh.
Speaking of sex vs. astrology in popular song, one could take the post title to mean that there is no particular sign that the poster is more compatible with.
[D]on't discuss astrology with girls.
I knew a girl who wasn't devotedly into astrology but was friends with a fairly prominent astrologer and would occasionally run transatlantic errands for him, which on one occasion took us to a surprisingly cozy little occult bookstore in a rickety old sweatshop building in the Garment District. She also told fortunes with cards.
In unrelated news, she was extremely attractive.
I dated a guy who was devotedly into astrology. Also the gemetria Torah numerology stuff. Also he grew pot in Humboldt county. I feel like I learned a lot, but ultimately it was not meant to be. Then I broke up with him on Valentine's Day. He's a great guy, though.
But yeah, the precession thing has been known since time immemorial.
It is, in fact, the basis of the well-known work of scholarship, The Age of Aquarius.
Another very attractive woman I know is very into astrology but otherwise a sharp-minded financial-services professional.
I've never tried to talk an attractive woman out of anything a woman out of an interest in astrology, but I remember a surprisingly energetic argument about the extent of that "Crossing Over" douchebag's mountebanking chicanery.
I also once knew an extremely attractive girl who once cast my horoscope and wrote it up extremely professionally (it's probably still in a box in the attic).
The odd thing was, she was extremely grounded and rational, a religious agnostic, and didn't hold with any other new age bullshit. Just this one thing.
Yeah, my mum once had all of ours done. When it arrived I thought she'd gone potty -- my mum's always been a total religious non-believer, and has little truck for that sort of thing. Turned out someone at work did them, and my Mum sent it because she thought it was amusing and the humour stemmed, in part, from the fact that mine was forensically accurate. All of the other family member's were comically wrong, though.
I read my horoscope pretty much every day. When it's good, I'm a true believer. When it's crap, I knowingly chuckle at the silliness of such things. Also, if this insomnia bit is going to stick, it would be a big help if you guys could comment more in the middle of the night CST.
The odd thing was, she was extremely grounded and rational, a religious agnostic, and didn't hold with any other new age bullshit. Just this one thing.
Astrologers see themselves as the economists of new age bullshit. Which is of course exactly correct.
it would be a big help if you guys could comment more in the middle of the night CST.
Midnight CST is what GMT?
Astrologers see themselves as the economists of new age bullshit.
Purveyors of a pseudo-science based on the assumption that all hippies are rational actors? I don't see it taking off, meself.
[A] pseudo-science based on the assumption that all hippies are rational actors....
"First, you must assume an adequate supply of kombucha."
More like the strong belief that they are the rigorous, high-tech scientific ones surrounded by purveyors of ill-conceived nonsense.
I've never tried to talk an attractive woman out of anything
Let us assume the joke to have been made.
55: so, more commenting at six in the morning for the UK crew?
Again we feel the lack of a good Russian presence.
51: Between about 7 a.m. and 10 a.m.your time would be helpful. They don't even have to be interesting comments.
They don't even have to be interesting comments.
Fruit, low-hanging, discuss.
A friend of mine's mother went deeply potty in a new agey way. She hooked up with some past life recursion therapy charlatan, who determined that the whole family had in fact been a family before, in some ancient Chinese dynasty, and they didn't get on well then, either, but of course in a much more tragic and romantic fashion. (She blew tens of thousands of dollars on this shit.)
57. I'm quite often shouting into the void between 8:00 and 9:00. I didn't know you were around. Feel free to discuss any low hanging fruit that's around.
Again we feel the lack of a good Russian presence.
As Catherine the Great said to the horse.
Di, I had insomnia, too. Brought on by racing thoughts about upcoming travel. How does anyone enjoy travel? Travel is such an enormous drag. Anyway then I found 0.5 milligrams of Klonopin.
For a lot of people, astrology seems to function as a way to talk to other people about psychology and personality in a casual and nonthreatening way. To that extent I think it's mildly beneficial or at least basically harmless.
I kind of view it as similar to how traditional Chinese medicine developed all these crazy descriptions and terminology to describe medical conditions (e.g. wind in the channels, yin deficiency, etc.) due to a severe lack of knowledge of actual human anatomy owing to medical dissection being taboo. They may not have been accurately describing what was actually happening internally in a patient, but they often came up with effective remedies anyway based on lots of trial and error recorded over centuries.
So, not that I know much about astrology at all, but I wouldn't be surprised if many of the descriptions of personality types based on astrology actually correspond to personality traits that are commonly found clustered together in individuals.
there's a great Supremes track denying astrology. A US B side, I think
Well, they were definitely ahead of their time- I don't think there was any standard serial interface in the 60s.
Astrology is an entertaining parlor game, like theology or Parcheesi. Why it provokes such heated pro and con reactions in people remains mysterious to me.
Astrology is THE BEST! Uranus is my favorite!
there's a great Supremes track denying astrology. A US B side, I think
Well, they were definitely ahead of their time- I don't think there was any standard serial interface in the 60s.
"You Can't Hurry File Transfer"
66: You're totes wrong, apostropher. Parcheesi sucks.
More seriously, I only react strongly against it when I'm confronted with someone who is evangelical about it. But that's about an aversion to all true believers, not astrology specifically.
66: The only reason to get excited about it is that a surprising number of people seem to believe it's true, rather than a game, and that's worrisome. I've mentioned a law school friend who was bright, competent, and cynical, and whose judgment I'd generally rely on. Who was very serious about astrology and Tarot.
If I knew it was an elaborate put on, I wouldn't have worried about it at all. As it was, I had a hard time not picking at it: "What is she actually thinking, that she believes in that stuff?"
66: The only reason to get excited about it is that a surprising number of people seem to believe it's true, rather than a game, and that's worrisome.
Not as worrisome as religious belief; I'm not aware of wars fought over astrological opinions, at least.
I'm not aware of wars fought over astrological opinions, at least.
I think it was pretty common at one time for kings to consult astrologers over whether it was a good time to go to war, though. Which gives astrological opinions a veto on whether the war gets fought or not.
I kind of view it as similar to how traditional Chinese medicine developed all these crazy descriptions and terminology to describe medical conditions (e.g. wind in the channels, yin deficiency, etc.) due to a severe lack of knowledge of actual human anatomy owing to medical dissection being taboo.
Unlike, say, Galen?
seem to believe it's true, rather than a game
On that count, I don't see any difference between astrology and Christianity. And on preview, what 71 said.
72: "A great kingdom will be lost." Oh, the humanity
Or, say, modern psychopathology. [miaow]
70: True. I do get that "if they'll fall for that, what won't they fall for?" feeling when confronted with such people. Like I said it seems generally harmless, but you're right, it's hard to understand what they're thinking, and lessens my trust in their judgment.
I think it was pretty common at one time for kings to consult astrologers over whether it was a good time to go to war
Historians refer to this period as "The 1980s White House".
When you wish upon a staaaaaar...
Unlike, say, Galen?
You can't trust Galen. He was a Libra.
Astrology is an entertaining parlor game, like theology or Parcheesi.
Charades is a parlor game, like adultery in mid-century Anglo-American novels. Parcheesi is pretty fun if your Christmas dinner of turkey and Indian pudding hasn't make you feel quite white enough. Theology is more like an artistic discipline, like silverpoint.
81: My mother still has a . . . Father's Day (I think) card I made in nursery school that says something like, "I love my Daddy even though he can't play parcheesi with me because his knee hurts." "I can't; my knee hurts" has been a family joke ever since.
I think it was pretty common at one time for kings to consult astrologers over whether it was a good time to go to war, though.
The massacre of the Nepali royal family by the crown prince was, according to one version of the story, provoked by the royal prohibition of marriage to the prince's girlfriend, who was religiously and astrologically unsuitable.
78: October 25, 1983 - Aquarius:
You can afford to be more indulgent today. Things have not really been going well for you, but you have an opportunity to redeem yourself through bold action. (Hint: Choose an easy task you're sure you can succeed at.)
I don't see any difference between astrology and Christianity
Somebody is slacking so I will have to do it.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/12/24/
The government of Myanmar is supposed to be heavily into astrology, isn't it? To the extent that they built a new capital in the middle of the jungle on the chief astrologist's suggestion.
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Somehow this seems the appropriate place for this philosophy prof singing about Kant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHmPNB5cf5Y
In more important news: it's like a really WANT to have a crush on her, but can't quite manage it. It's odd.
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64
I wouldn't be surprised if many of the descriptions of personality types based on astrology actually correspond to personality traits that are commonly found clustered together in individuals.
Personality traits clustered together, sure, I can buy that. For example, the first Google hit for "leo personality" says that Leos are "ambitious, confident, independent, loyal and generous". I can buy that those personality traits generally appear together with each other, even if there's no apparent reason for it. However, astrology fans also apparently believe that (a) personality traits cluster together around certain birthdates, and (b) birthdates influence what is going to happen to you or what you should do during the day. That is less explicable.
66
Why it provokes such heated pro and con reactions in people remains mysterious to me.
Heated pro: mystifies me as well, but so does particularly strong religious belief, so I've never spent too much time wondering about it. Heated con: all the annoying parts of evangelicalanity without the barely-veiled threat of a mob with torches and pitchforks. Just as annoying but safe to mock. Also, the implied excuse of "oh, well, that must be the culture he grew up in" seems rarer with astrology.
86: I think it is now called Myanmar because of some astrologically bent dream revelation.
74: On that count, I don't see any difference between astrology and Christianity
A rather lazy and unhelpful statement when applied to the real world we live in.
Myanmar is beginning to seem more and more like the place you go when you have a bad trip.
However, astrology fans also apparently believe that (a) personality traits cluster together around certain birthdates, and (b) birthdates influence what is going to happen to you or what you should do during the day. That is less explicable.
Right, although there always seems to be a handy explanation for why someone doesn't match the personality their birthday says they should have: "yes, you're not much like a Leo, but that's because at the moment you were born Sagittarius was rising and Torres was in retrograde" (or whatever).
Now that you mention it, I'm mostly just fine with non-observant astrologarians, i.e. the kind who basically just use it to talk about personality, not the kind who use it to decide what to do on any given day.
93: My favorite bit about that is that the astrology-focused friend of mine from law school looked up the major components of my horoscope, and apparently I'm not just a Leo, I'm some kind of uber-Leo. Should be charismatic enough to power a small neighborhood. Given that I tend toward the diffidently mousy interpersonally, I find that entertaining.
A rather lazy and unhelpful statement when applied to the real world we live in.
Care to elaborate? I mean, I'll absolutely own up to being generally lazy and unhelpful. But even as absurd as its premise is, astrology is *still* more grounded in reality than anticipating the return of a two-millenia-dead itinerant Davidic preacher who raised the dead, walked on water, and cast demons into pigs.
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Argh. Buck is going to pick up Newt at school, as he may have broken his thumb. I told the boy to stop hustling the other kids at pool.
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1) It is interesting that so many moderns need a clear chain of causality in which to ground belief. Ancients didn't need so much to know how the nymph got into the tree. Astrology can just be taxonomy? Do we need to justify taxonomies?
2) Metaphors and symbols are useful! Deconstructing them detracts from their utility.
3) I passionately believe that one needs to recognize and accept, nay, celebrate the irrational within oneself and then fairly arbitrarily find a idiosyncratic symbol-system with which to organize and rank the instincts. We all do this, some are honest about it, and others think they are scientists.
The heaventree of stars hung with humid nightblue fruit. Ain't just poetry.
And I ain't changing my starsign and moonsign (I'm a double) just cause the earth wobbled.
Actually though, the best explanation of astrology I'm familiar with comes from a determined sceptic, Douglas Adams. (Hope the link works, it's to a Google book.)
The rules just kind of got there. They don't make any kind of sense except in terms of themselves. But when you start to exercise those rules, all sorts of processes start to happen and you start to find out all sorts of stuff about people. In astrology the rules happen to be about stars and planets, but they could be about ducks and drakes for all the difference it would make. It's just a way of thinking about a problem which lets the shape of that problem begin to emerge... astrology's nothing to do with astronomy. It's just to do with people thinking about people.
Today you might have to do a lot of communicating with friends. Perhaps you need to make phone calls or catch up on correspondence. You may be on the verge of attaining a goal. Consider giving it that last little spurt of energy to complete. This could involve a lot of time in the car or on the phone, Leo, but stick with it. You will be glad you did.
If the horoscope says "opportunity will knock today", it's stupid to believe that opportunity is more likely to knock for that 8.3 percent of the population born under that sign than it normally is for them, or more likely for them that day than it is for everyone else. It does, however, make people of that sign more alert to the potential knocks of opportunity.
Um, "Taurus".
Actually, it's a Mercury Sable, but same difference.
Not to disparage the rest of 101, which is very fine, but I like that Adams quote especially.
this philosophy prof singing about Kant:
He was a real pissant, and very rarely stable.
(Sorry)
The second part is good advice for anyone
Well, yes. That's kind of the point. Anti-astrologers might not mind so much if the astrology column was instead labelled as an advice column. Though, having said that: "Use a car or a telephone to complete a task today" is particularly vapid advice.
101: He had a similarily clever defense of feng shui, IIRC. The problem, is of course if you use this arbitrary framework as a starting point for discussion you often run into people like LB, so you have to start adding more and more personality epicycles.
re: 101.1
Yeah, similar things apply with things like Freudian psychology, too.
Ah, it is, near the bottom of this page. A short quote:
What I'm suggesting is that Feng Shui and an awful lot of other things are precisely of that kind of problem. There are all sorts of things we know how to do, but don't necessarily know what we do, we just do them.
Not to disparage the rest of 101, which is very fine, but I like that Adams quote especially.
Yeah, I liked that Adams quote, too. Thanks, Cyrus.
Feeling less flippant than when I wrote the OP, I'll mention that I really like quotations of the sort of quote-of-the-day nature. So maybe I'm just as guilty as the people who engage non-evangelically in astrology.
astrology's nothing to do with astronomy. It's just to do with people thinking about people.
I don't think this is adequate. I think, whatever crazy belief system you choose, you are commanded (!) to commit to it in a Soren K. kinda way in order for it to give you power. It must be a discipline.
Gotta believe in the stars. Why not? Or try Jung if you prefer a different style. Or neuro-cognitive stuff.
At some point it will get in your way, or get you in trouble. So what? You are likely to survive.
The fear terror modern man has of being wrong or being unrational, even for a moment, is quite remarkable. Night terrors of the Thirty-Years War?
Close your eyes, you won't fall down.
It is interesting that so many moderns need a clear chain of causality in which to ground belief. Ancients didn't need so much to know how the nymph got into the tree.
Yet moderns have, in prosperous countries, such as North America, perinatal mortality for mothers and children below one in a thousand and have effectively eliminated starvation. Whereas the ancients, in prosperous countries, such as Latium, had perinatal mortality around 5%, and the Emperor Julian wasn't able to relieve the great famine at Antioch when all that was needed was to bring food in from less than a hundred miles away.
Clear chain of causality that.
I think it is now called Myanmar because of some astrologically bent dream revelation.
I hadn't heard that - I think "Myanmar" is just the Burmese word for "Burma". But astrology and numerology are very popular there. IIRC Ne Win started to issue banknotes denominated in multiples of nine, rather than ten, because nine was his lucky number.
I think "Myanmar" is just the Burmese word for "Burma".
More complicated than that -- it's different dialects (entirely different languages?) with some political valence I don't remember and didn't understand properly when I did know what it was. But I don't think it's astrology.
106: actually, it seems to fit me particularly well today, or at least this week. I don't have a car, but I have been procrastinating on calling the HR manager at work to see about getting something in the mail I should have received already. And the "complete a project" thing too - I have had an Ikea cabinet sitting around in the box since last weekend that my girlfriend and I have not yet got around to assembling, and just 10 minutes ago I learned she's going away for the weekend, so if I don't want to do it all myself or leave it sitting there until well into next week then we'll have to do it tonight.
Hey, maybe there is something to this horoscope business!
(Well, not really. Information on the HR thing is at home, so I won't be calling them from right here at work, and they work a normal day so I'll have to wait until next week. And as for the cabinet, it'll be annoying building it myself but I have done it before with no problems. So I'm going to ignore my horoscope, but it does look like it fits me better today than it would a week ago or a week from now.)
"Use a car or a telephone to complete a task today" is particularly vapid advice.
I take it you don't read Amish horoscopes.
in prosperous countries, such as North America
YOU SEE?! I TOLD YOU THEY WERE GOING TO MAKE IT ONE COUNTRY!
97: If LB had read Newt's horoscope, she would have known to keep him home today.
Fortunately, his horoscope indicates that he will be ok anyway.
Do we need to justify taxonomies?
Yes.
I think "Myanmar" is just the Burmese word for "Burma".
It means, "Advertising spread across several sequential road signs."
I have had an Ikea cabinet sitting around in the box since last weekend that my girlfriend and I have not yet got around to assembling, and just 10 minutes ago I learned she's going away for the weekend, so if I don't want to do it all myself or leave it sitting there until well into next week then we'll have to do it tonight.
Trying to assemble IKEA furniture with a partner is the #1 cause of relationship conflict in our modern age. True fact.
96: Care to elaborate? ... But even as absurd as its premise is, astrology is *still* more grounded in reality than anticipating the return of a two-millenia-dead itinerant Davidic preacher who raised the dead, walked on water, and cast demons into pigs.
Sure, I agree that a simple ahistoric comparison of many beliefs and tenets is not that different. But given the actual historical and continuing role of organized religion in our society the differences between the act and consequences of truly "believing" in one versus the other is quite significant.
I think astrology is like Jungian synchronicity. One's mind finds what it needs, and rationality/logic be damned.
When I was busy dynamiting my old life and moving to L.A. from Birmingham, I had some severe doubts about coping with what I imagined was a super-sophisticated city, where perfect was the norm.
I got to LAX and had to climb up a broken escalator. The gibbering monkey behind my eyes quieted down considerably. If that escalator wasn't broken I would have spotted a pothole, or a something else broken.
I mostly don't fight patterning, it serves me well and it doesn't get in my way most of the time.
114: What I recall reading was that the *decision* to change the name was made by the junta leader based on some astrological dream (but this was back when the name changed happened, and likely from someone like Hitchens, so who knows?).
The internet is confusing and contradictory on the meaning of Myanmar and Burma. Some sources say that it is as simple as formal (Myanmar) and informal (Burma) language, and others that Burma refers to a specific ethnicity, while Myanmar is more general. I haven't a fucking clue.
I mostly don't fight patterning
I bet you could take Brad Paisley.
I passionately believe that one needs to recognize and accept, nay, celebrate the irrational within oneself and then fairly arbitrarily find a idiosyncratic symbol-system with which to organize and rank the instincts.
You don't say!
Meanwhile, catch the Tunisian government resigning on tv: here
If you want to sort people using an elaborate typology because doing so creates a sense of practical understanding, why not use Myers-Briggs? At least some effort has been made to empirically validate that system.
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We're shuffling offices at work. The inheritors of my current space aren't taking seriously my warnings about the menace of stink bugs in this part of the building. Kinda makes me want to root for the bugs.
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(They cut back to a documentary on nuclear fusion. The streaming site has changed channels to the Al Arabiya feed)
59 sounds disturbingly like my ex-MIL. I forget exactly what the deal was in our past lives that led to such grave animosity, but it's okay because she spoke to my past-life spirit in a dream and now we're good.
|| So over the summer I mentioned that the older sister and father of a guy with whom I went to school K-12 had been arrested for murdering her ex-husband. This week, the mother (heretofore free) and the older sister were charged with soliciting the murder of some relative of the ex. The sister made her phone calls regarding this matter from jail and they are on tape. Charmed, I'm sure. So now the entire immediate family of this poor guy I once knew is in jail. |>
128: And yet: "Several studies have shown that when retested, even after intervals as short as five weeks, as many as 50 percent will be classified into a different type."
I think it is now called Myanmar because of some astrologically bent dream revelation.
No details, but this piece says so. 115 is right; Myanmar/Burma is complicated.
It means, "Advertising spread across several sequential road signs."
So what? You are likely to survive. The fear terror modern man has of being wrong or being unrational, even for a moment, is quite remarkable.
Certainement qui est en droit de vous rendre absurde est en droit de vous rendre injuste.
I take it you don't read Amish horoscopes.
Probably not a great Shabbat horoscope either.
96: Shorter 123: astrology believers aren't the ones who funded Proposition 8 or shoot up Unitarian churces.
128: Ah, well, I hate Myers-Briggs typology because I hate personality tests, except for the most frivolous of them. Maybe they come across to me as pass/fail tests, only you're being tested on who you are rather than what you know. I blame my mother; she was a guidance counselor, so it feels like I got a lot of those as a kid.
Some sources say that it is as simple as formal (Myanmar) and informal (Burma) language, and others that Burma refers to a specific ethnicity, while Myanmar is more general.
My understanding is that it's both. "Burma" and "Myanmar" are different-register Burmese pronunciations of the same word, but the usage and spelling have become very politicized so that in English (or other non-Burmese languages) the connotations of choosing one or the other are different.
Believing in astrology
Is kind of dumb
On the other hand
I have four fingers and a thumb
Myanmar
So now the entire immediate family of this poor guy I once knew is in jail.
But he's not? I would hate to have his life. Was he OK when you knew him?
I think this is my cue to tell everybody to take the enneagram sample test.
I'm a 7 with a 6 wing.
140: He was a perfectly pleasant laid back surfer dude. One really has to wonder now what kind of shit was going on in that house, though. Yikes.
141. So how does that work? I come out with equal scores (7) on 5 and 6, and equal second scores (5) on 1 and 9. But they don't seem to integrate very well. What's a wing?
143: In apo's case, I think 7 is either "infidel" or "heretic," I can't remember which. I'm a 4, which apparently is a "moody Dick Cheney" or worse. That's it, I'm going back to astrology.
What's a wing?
You know, that noise your Andwoid makes when somebody calls you.
And yet people complain about the puns.
If you want to sort people using an elaborate typology because doing so creates a sense of practical understanding, why not use Myers-Briggs? At least some effort has been made to empirically validate that system.
I think for many people the mushiness of astrology is a feature, not a bug. It makes talking about something as potentially fraught and controversial as your own or another's personality much easier if there's lots of wiggle room and it doesn't feel like a test.
Also, answering the Myers-Briggs questions feels a lot more invasive/personal than simply telling someone when and where you were born so they can work up your chart. And there's always some epicycle or motion or whatnot that can be used to explain deviance from what the chart predicts, whereas Myers-Briggs is often presented as Science, like an x-ray or blood test but for your personality.
The lack of standards and authority in astrology allows people to feel more comortable disagreeing with or qualifying its conclusions than many would with a test designed by PhDs.
The big thing I noticed about taking the Enneagram is how unflattering it is for a personality test. All the Meyers-Briggs types sound like wonderful people; with their own quirks, but just delightful. All the Enneagram types sound awful.
A wing is the dominant adjacent number to your high score. If your results aren't clear, read the descriptions of the ones you scored high on and see what fits. For extra fun, read the "unhealthy levels" descriptions:
[Point 5] Level 9: Seeking oblivion, they may commit suicide or have a psychotic break with reality. Deranged, explosively self-destructive, with schizophrenic overtones. Generally corresponds to the Schizoid Avoidant and Schizotypal personality disorders.
All the Meyers-Briggs types sound like wonderful people...
Even the vampires are some friendly dudes.
150: That's because the designer of the Enneagram was a Scorpio.
154: The next paragraph may even be better. Mr. Den Hollander refused to reveal his age because it might hurt his chances picking up younger women at bars. He said he looks younger than his true age and that "I want to continue to exploit the infinite capacity of females to delude themselves."
I think for many people the mushiness of astrology is a feature, not a bug. It makes talking about something as potentially fraught and controversial as your own or another's personality much easier if there's lots of wiggle room and it doesn't feel like a test
Maybe it's the circles I travel in, but I'd question "many". I'm far, far more likely to hear someone describe a personality in either psychological or just vulgar language than I am to hear someone say: "She's such an Aries". In fact, I'm pretty sure I haven't heard that sort of description outside of a joke or the media for years.
I couldn't get through that Enneagram sample test because the questions are driving me completely batty:
Are you someone who:
- has brown hair
- or is conflicted over your sense of pride?
Pick one!
156: My impression based on the times I've lived in the UK is that casual interest in and use of astrological language is much more prevalent in the States than there.
156: Also, by "many people" I meant "many people who lend some credence to astrology".
157: I can never get through personality tests. I'm just too fucking complex!!!!
We should write a personality test.
Are you someone who:
-drops it like it's hot
-feels fly like a G6
-be ackin like you dru-u-unk
Pick one!
I feel more fly like a Spruce Goose.
Where can you be found?
-in da club
-left of center, off of the strip
-in the back of a jacked up tailgate
True story: I once did a Myers-Briggs test when I was pretty drunk. It didn't even detect my lack of sobriety!
I'm sure glad to hear the news about J.P. Morgan. Let the good times roll.
How do you feel?
-fly like a G6
-like makin' love
-like you just got home
-like Jonah in the belly of da whale
162: I feel I can fly like Helen Hunt.
"Good news for the banks could translate into higher hopes for the broader economy."
That's a quote directly from the NYT article, not a quote from a banker being quoted in the NYT article.
The Enneagram treated me right.
Forced-choice tasks make heebie [CRY | TRAVEL]
Sorry, 166 and 169 seem to be veering OT.
166: Loosely related, if wikipedia's to be believed, the bank Aaron Burr founded was later folded into what became JPMorgan Chase. So, that's, I dunno, interesting or something.
Which answer best describes your swagger?
-noone on the corner has anything like it
-it's a lot like Mick Jagger's
-I jacked it from Cam'Ron
As a Scorpio who is hostile towards astrology because of adherents' hostility towards Scorpios, I am all in favor of creating confusion with a reordering of the signs. Hey, I'm now a Libra!
172: Back when bankers actually competed ... with guns. (Hamilton was Bank of New York).
What do you believe?
-that children are our future
-in a thing called love
-I can fly!
-for every drop of rain that falls a flower grows
169: "Good news for the banks could translate into higher hopes for the broader economy."
If we're good little boys and girls.
What will you do?
-survive
-follow
-always loooooooo-o-oo-o-ooooooo-ooo-oooovvvee yooooo-oooo-oouuuuu-uuuuuuuuu
I don't think you people are getting into the spirit of writing this personality test.
Urgh, why do I even look at stuff like the enneagram test? My response to nearly every question on that kind of thing is "it depends."
180: see 161.
Maybe, we're a new personality type -- the TFCs.
Same thing happens to me. And as a result, I often get results that show I'm equally a 2 and a 6, with 9 and 4 wings. What it should reveal is that I'm indecisive and random.
Which best corresponds to the true you?
-- A leaf riding on a breeze
-- Microsoft Visual Basic
-- Paraguay
-- 3 medium-sized rocks
What do you want?
-you to want me
-it that way
-to ride my bicycle
Do you want...
- To know a secret?
- To date my avatar?
- To allow the following program?
(Google is perfect for writing these questions.)
In what way are you bad?
- to the bone
- really really bad (you know)
- nationwide
What do they call you?
-Ishmael
-the space cowboy
-Dr. Love
-Ray, or Jay, or Johnny, or Sonny, or Junie, or Ray J, or RJ, or RJJ, or RJJ Jr.
-a cab
Oh, good. I'd been kind of stewing since last night, but without internet access, so I'm glad to see that discussion opened up some. I'm on team apo-M/lls: I don't believe in astrology as such, but I find it and systems like it (I Ching, Tarot) to be very useful ways of asking oneself and others questions.
Even so, it seems supremely arrogant not helpful to dismiss out of hand the beliefs of a great many people in this world as meaningless delusions (which make them less serious people and somehow bad), rather than at least attempting to understand it. And really, are you a steely eyed secular rationalist all the time with no superstion or arbitrary sentiment? Also, while I'm for the scientific method as much as the next modern, Western science has certainly had its share of complexly elaborated but ultimately false beliefs and worse than useless practices. Scientific medicine, for example, produced worse results for a long time before it started producing better ones.
Whew. Got that out of my system.
In what way are you bad?
Just drawn that way.
What don't you want?
-To miss a thing
-No scrubs
-A pickle
And really, are you a steely eyed secular rationalist all the time with no superstion or arbitrary sentiment?
Yes. Next question?
To the whole thing, sure, Western rationalism doesn't have the perfect answer to everything, and being polite to people even when they're silly is good. But that doesn't mean there's anything valuable to 'understand' about astrology.
I can't believe I missed "like Jesse James" in 188.
Describe your father.
-a rolling stone
-a rodeo
-a bankrobber, but he never hurt nobody.
-a cop, on the east side of Chicago.
In times long past, this planet was the home of a mighty, noble race of beings who called themselves the Krell. Ethically and technologically they were a million years ahead of humankind, for in unlocking the meaning of nature they had conquered even their baser selves, and when in the course of eons they had abolished sickness and insanity, crime and all injustice, they turned, still in high benevolence, upwards towards space. Then, having reached the heights, this all-but-divine race disappeared in a single night, and nothing was preserved above ground.
Who did you kiss?
- A girl and I liked it.
- The sky, and excuse me.
- My chances goodbye.
- An angel tonight
What do you got?
- chills (they're multiplyin)
- a man
- a feeling
- a brand new pair of roller skates
- you babe
You don't?
-own me
-know how it feels
-know me at all
-know what love is
Do you feel lke
- a rolling stone
- making love
- a number
- starting over
Why are you standing up?
-for my rights
-because I'm the real Slim Shady
-I'm not sure. Ludacris told me to.
Fill in the blank: My love is _____.
-Your drug
-Dude, Ke$ha kinda sucks
I don't?
-wanna be a pinhead
-wanna go down to the basement
-wanna live this life
-wanna grow up
-wanna walk around with you
What don't you want?
To bump with no big fat woman.
Why do?
-I love you
-You love me
-Birds suddenly appear
Don't you
-wish your girlfriend was hot like me?
-want me baby?
-want somebody to love?
-forget about me
What's my name?
-Snoop Doggy-Dogg
-Ooh na na
-DMX and I be the best
-naaaame...naaaame....naaaame....
Did you come...
- here to play Jesus?
- from a land down under?
- here for a pie, sir?
- ???
- alone or did you bring all your friends?
207: You forgot Poland Luka (he lives on the second floor)!
209: That reminds me! For some reason I have it in my head that the narrator of My Name is Luka is a little boy whose parents abuse him, whereas Sir Kraab is convinced that the song is narrated by a woman who is battered by her partner. Was there a little boy in the video maybe? Or where did I (and you) get the idea that Luka is a child?
You wanna...
- be sedated
- zig a zig ah
- know
- be the guy
I thought Luka was an abused little girl.
193: I was going to go with "Really?", but I guess I'll leave it alone.
I'm not say there's anything you need to understand in the sense that if you did you could more correctly and profitably plan your life choices, but rather in the sense that you could understand what it is that people (both clerics and laity) are claiming to believe in.
Suppose a news article went around claiming "Muslims believe the Kaaba, the holiest site in Islam to be a giant cube of stone descended directly from heaven to mark the occasion of the Prophet Mohammed's birth, but recent studies show that is in fact a building created centuries before." A reasonable response might be "Actually, that doesn't contradict in any way Muslim beliefs about the Kaaba." If one were to respond to that response with, "Ah, whatever, it's all crap," I would think that was unreasonable.
HEEBIE IS TEH WRONGZ! It's like you guys never even *watched* MTV.
"I don't know," I said. "What do you think it's about?"
"Unless I am mistaken it seems to be from the point of view of a child who is abused."
"That's right. A 9-year-old boy named Luka."
http://measureformeasure.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/18/surviving-the-hits/
A reasonable response might be "Actually, that doesn't contradict in any way Muslim beliefs about the Kaaba."
But (assuming you've correctly represented the Muslim beliefs, which I don't remember offhand), it does contradict those beliefs. Meaning either the studies or the beliefs are wrong. I don't have any particular need to actively be a jerk about people's irrational or otherwise false beliefs, but there's no requirement of manners to say that false things are true, or that contradictory things aren't.
It's the description of the beliefs that is wrong, which is also the case in re astrology.
Even so, it seems supremely arrogant not helpful to dismiss out of hand the beliefs of a great many people in this world as meaningless delusions (which make them less serious people and somehow bad), rather than at least attempting to understand it. And really, are you a steely eyed secular rationalist all the time with no superstion or arbitrary sentiment? Also, while I'm for the scientific method as much as the next modern, Western science has certainly had its share of complexly elaborated but ultimately false beliefs and worse than useless practices. Scientific medicine, for example, produced worse results for a long time before it started producing better ones.
Yeah. I mostly am pretty much a steely-eyed rationalist. Most superstitions have never had even passing emotional appeal for me, and I'm completely comfortable with a cold, meaningless universe devoid of any purpose but that with which we imbue it. Never had one iota of a religious impulse that I can remember.
But fuck yes, there's a certain crude scientism widely abroad that needs a good kicking. Lots of 'folk' beliefs, primitive or otherwise, codify all kinds of venerable and useful shit, and the world-view they represent can still be interesting or wise, even if their metaphysical foundations are clearly shaky or obviously wrong. Of course, astrology isn't really one of those, but lots of belief systems that don't stand up to scientific scrutiny are.
And, of course, wearing my philosopher of science hat, many people cheer-leading for scientific rationalism need a good dose of sociology of science up 'em.
[Vitriol not aimed at anyone in this thread.]
214: WOOT!
215: Actually, Kraab didn't watch MTV. Her knowledge of pop culture is woefully lacking.
wearing my philosopher of science hat
Those are the red-checked ones with ear flaps?
How do you walk?
-like a man
-like an Egyptian
-on sunshine
-I strut my stuff and I'm so strung out
Oh, if all you're saying is that if you want to understand people's motivations and interact with them successfully, it's useful to know and understand what they believe in, sure. Sometimes it's worth the effort, sometimes not, depending on how much you're going to have to interact with the belief-holders and how involved they are with their beliefs.
Whatcha doin?
-Cussin, cryin, and carryin on
-Growin up
-Talkin loud and sayin nothing
-Slip slidin away
-Foolin around
133, 137: I wasn't saying Myers-Briggs was accurate or super scientific, just that it was a step up from astrology.
In general, I'm not so much a steely eyed rationalist as a careless skeptic. Science is the best method we've found yet for creating knowledge, but even that doesn't do much.
225: Replace "successfully" with "respectfully" and then, yeah.
LB has an insanely dogmatic positivist/vulgar scientistism streak, but I've been trying to learn to respect it even if it is, at its core, fundamentally unsound.
229: True. No one has ever interacted with me successfully.
Describe your relationship to the Man.
-I used to work for him night and day, but I left that job, despite it being a good one.
-I have to work for him, but my biggest moneymaker's flaccid.
-It's a real real bitch to be working for him, but shit, I do it well, so what the fuck.
-I'm waiting for him. And no, I am not chasing all the women around. That's furthest from my mind.
231: Then how do you explain the offspring, Moby?
In a seminar last fall, the topic of secularization/disenchantment came up frequently, with us unscientifically coming to the conclusion that there are a lot of enchanted secularists out there. I have all sorts of strange magical thinking beliefs* (granted, compared to your average 16th century person, not so many) while otherwise considering myself to be a fairly secular person.
*My favorite - if you bring your umbrella, it's sure not to rain. If you leave it at home, it will pour.
if you bring your umbrella, it's sure not to rain. If you leave it at home, it will pour.
That is my sole superstition. Like, I've actually said the exact phrase "I've got exactly one superstition, and it's this:"
Speaking of magical thinking, NMM to Michael Steele's belief that he could win another term as RNC Chairman.
All this "no more masturbating" stuff is getting depressing. Why can't we celebrate the people, things, and ideas that we can still masturbate to? Like Sean Connery, this winter's snow, or free speech?
Extra points if you can hit the trifecta.
235: I have many such superstitions. But I wouldn't say I actually believe in them. I'm incapable of faith.
Yeah, if you pressed the point with me, I'd admit that of course I don't truly believe any such thing. But I figure at the point that it influences behavior, I have to fess up and realize I'm not so rational all the time.
Random low-hanging fruit from Wikipedia: Speaking with reference to the normal definition of the term screw machine, all screw machines are fully automated
So, like, Goldfinger Connery or Zardoz Connery?
244: Well that was fast. You must not have masturbated enough as a kid.
247: Surely there are opportunities for masturbation besides sleepovers.
235: While waiting for the El in Chicago, I have encouraged people to light cigarettes so I could be sure that the train would arrive quickly.
233: Still wasn't any fun for her.
compared to your average 16th century person, not so many
My otherwise thoroughly modern wife will turn the car around rather than cross the trail of a black cat. This has nearly resulted in an accident one time while I was driving the automobile. I don't even think that has a semi-rational basis for superstition, like not walking under a ladder.
In general, I'm not so much a steely eyed rationalist as a careless skeptic. Science is the best method we've found yet for creating knowledge, but even that doesn't do much.
I suppose I can go along with that, yeah. Maybe mix in a bit of moderate pluralism about sources of knowledge. Science can be amazing, and inspirational, but I get a bit annoyed at the whirly-eyed philistines sometimes. Even though I'm usually engaged in defending science in lots of other contexts, sometimes supporters of 'the scientific method' can be its own worst enemy.
252: Yeah, if scientists had a bit more humility and willingness to take outside critiques seriously, I'd be much less resistant to their claims of superiority.
253: Whatever, dude. I figured it out. We can stop working now.
rather than cross the trail of a black cat
I never understood that one, in terms of its operation. Clearly, you need to know how long "cat trailness" lasts. If is only lasts for as long as you can see the cat walk in front of you, then "cat trailness" depends on visibility, turning the corner, and the like. Which doesn't make much sense. If it doesn't depend on you seeing the cat, you might cross a cat trail without knowing it.
It seems to me that the best way to be sure you haven't crossed the path of a black cat is to hit it with the tire on the side from which the cat is approaching.
Which is twice as hard as my current plan for cats.
Clearly, you need to know how long "cat trailness" lasts.
This depends on what you've taken.
Replace "successfully" with "respectfully" and then, yeah.
It's funny, this bothers me because interacting with people with ill-founded beliefs an a polite way that will make them comfortable feels to me as though I'm being really disrespectful to them. Like, that law school friend of mine; she talked about astrology fairly often, and I mostly kind of went along with it, hemming and hawing enough to make it clear that astrology wasn't my thing, but engaging with her as though I thought it was a reasonable thing for a reasonable person to take seriously. And I still feel bad about doing that, because I was misrepresenting my beliefs about astrology (that it's a load of horseshit) in a patronizing way, because I thought she'd be happier and we'd get along better if she didn't know I thought astrology was a load of horseshit.
If the situation were flipped, I'd very much not want someone to do what I did; I'd want to have the argument, and I'd feel disrespected if I found out that someone had been treating my beliefs with false 'respect'.
253:
Yeah, out of all the types of people who claim to have an explanation for what goes on in the world, it is the scientists that are least humble and least willing to accept outside critiques. Definitely.
I never understood that one, in terms of its operation
It is my understanding that the offending feline must be observed in the act of crossing one's intended route. I usually put the kibosh on such shenanigans by claiming to have seen a white spot on the cat's foot. Wherein a discussion ensues as to the veracity of my claim, rendered moot by the continued forward motion of the vehicle.
I knock on wood when I'm speaking of something I don't want to happen. It's become pretty compulsive. It goes without saying I don't believe in it, but I can't quite not do it. Sometimes, to be cute, I'll say "keinahora" instead.
261: I knock on my own head, as I say, "knock on wood".
I'd want to have the argument
And yet you were attracted to the law. Such a paradox.
No, you're confusing "respectfully" with "politely deferrential" or "conflict avoiding." You can be respectful to someone and still be clear that your beliefs differ from theirs or even that you don't fully understand their beliefs, but feel pretty certain that they aren't for you. I don't think that honest disagreement neccessarily become arguement, though it can and still be respectful. What's not respectful is deciding that their beliefs are horseshit, with out engaging enough to understand what it is they actually believe.
259: It's not that they are the biggest problem. But it can be enraging to discuss "the scientific method" or something with someone who sees it as a universal law and fails to understand that it is the result of a very specific historical process. Or at least, it is enraging to me. More than a few things in science are taken on faith or the product of tradition; most recognize it, of course, but a surprising number don't, and they're often the truest believers in the power of science.
What's not respectful is deciding that their beliefs are horseshit, with out engaging enough to understand what it is they actually believe.
Here, we're getting into the "You don't have to eat a whole egg to know it's bad," issue. That is, it's unreasonable to expect anyone to become expert in astrology before deciding that it's horseshit, a fairly cursory acquaintance with it is really enough.
I can argue with nothing in 265. The biggest surprise of my life was to discover that some smart scientists rely entirely on faith and emotion instead of method and reason. I put them in the "right for the wrong reason" category and they can indeed be frustrating.
What's not respectful is deciding that their beliefs are horseshit, with out engaging enough to understand what it is they actually believe.
How granularly do you need to understand someone's believes before you're allowed to decide that they're horseshit? E.g., I'm pretty sure I don't understand all the beliefs of the Scientologists, but, based on what I know, I think they're horsehits.
It seems like if you understood enough of someone's belief to conclude that any truths their beliefs might contain are almost certainly going to be incidental to those beliefs (and obtainable through other means, likely more verifiably so), rather than being any sort of special knowledge obtained by virtue of those beliefs, then it seems like you're safe dismissing the beliefs as a whole as horsehits. And you can get to that point pretty quickly with, e.g., astrology.
So I'm only up to 193 in reading this thread, but I read:;
And really, are you a steely eyed secular rationalist all the time with no superstion or arbitrary sentiment?
And immediately thought that I should answer "Yes. Next question?" Then I read 193 and saw that LB had already taken care of it.
I think true believers of any kind just weird me out, regardless of what they're promoting - Christianity; science; wove, twue wove. I need people who have a healthy dose of cynicism.
268 preempted by 266. And it seems like my left ring finger is a little slow today.
If i have salt left over in my hand after using it in soup, I will throw it over my shoulder to ward off the devil. I don't believe in the devil, but I like to throw salt.
269.last: Although I was being overstated. I do have superstitious thoughts, I just recognize them as silly when I pay attention to them.
The problem is more with PZ Myers style "I have disproved transubstantiation because a chemical analysis of the communion wafer demonstrates that it is a cracker," to which the religious believer responds "you have completely missed the point."
274: I was gonna say......
(I've never met anyone who was truly always rational. Don't you basically have to have autism for this to be true? But of course, irrational due to emotions is not the same thing as irrational due to superstition.)
267: Oh, and while I'm over-commenting, I don't actually find there to be anything wrong with operating from faith and emotion. I'd just like people to recognize it.
I had the belief that Parenthetical was perfectly rational, which I now see was an irrational belief all along.
269.last: Although I was being overstated. I do have superstitious thoughts, I just recognize them as silly when I pay attention to them.
Well, right. Look, we're all just slightly-smarter apes, it's not like we're perfectly rational at all times. But I think I'm a lot more inclined to act irrational than to think irrationally. A recent moment comes to mind where someone said "wait, you chose to do [A] rather than [B]? does that make sense?" and the only answer I could give is "well, no, but I felt like doing [A]. *shrug*".
It's probably fair to say that I have at least an average amount of arbitrary sentiment, but that's quite different from having superstitions or religious beliefs.
The biggest surprise of my life was to discover that some smart scientists rely entirely on faith and emotion instead of method and reason
Individual scientists make decsisions with as much emotion as anyone else. That's part of why science is a group process that follows specific rules. No one has created special humans who are better decision makers. We have arranged people a way that filters out bias and subjectivity on the whole.
I should add that like ttaM I believe in a moderate epistemic pluralism. Moral knoweldge is possible, but not scientific.
I agree with 275.
In general in any discussion on the internet, the person who uses the phrase "empirical evidence" the most is the person who will never, ever, be convinced that he is mistaken about anything. Especially true in baseball discussions.
Show me empirical evidence that umpires are occasionally biased toward certain pitchers, or I'll continue to assume it's impossible. Show me empirical evidence that first base was more of a defensive position 8 years ago. Show me empirical evidence that a player would be more demoralized by losing after leading 4-1 in the ninth inning than they would be after leading 4-1 in the first inning. Show me empirical evidence that people who hate each other tend to not help each other succeed. Sure, this drug can help your strength, or your stamina, or your focus, but where's the empirical evidence that it helps you throw a ball past a hitter?
"8 years ago" s/b "80 years ago"
"wait, you chose to do [A] rather than [B]? does that make sense?"
Sometimes it's tempting to go for one of the special breads, rather than just sticking to the plain white kind, but it's a terrible idea. In fact, why were you eating at Subway at all?
283: *shrug*
279 might not have it right, but there is a real distinction to be made here, right? Everyone is sometimes mistaken and sometimes irrational. But this is different from having more or less clearly-defined beliefs about the world that rely on magical thinking.
There are plenty of religious people who I like and I wouldn't attack their beliefs to their faces, so I'm mildly uncomfortable saying things like this on this blog, because I don't mean to offend anyone. But religious beliefs almost universally rely on magical ideas about the way the world works that are just clearly wrong, just as astrology does.
(And now I pause to consider whether consistently voting for Democratics can be argued to be a religious ritual....)
Could someone please send out the Kotsko signal? Do we need to have this conversation every three months? Fucking scientists.
I'm quite drawn to polytheism due to the superiority of the user interface. You do business directly with the deity that specializes in your area of concern without any of this "thy will be done" rubbish. The god of the big monotheistic religions is a bit too much like Steve Jobs for my taste.
My sign is the same either way. Anybody want to guess? Keep in mind that cock-face is not an astrological sign.
You do business directly with the deity that specializes in your area of concern
True, but only the High Priest can tell the difference between Erato and Euterpe.
I might be drunk in my office a while from now, so I hope this place isn't going to be too dead this Friday night.
Astrology is popular because people want helpful hints about their day from somewhere, and nobody else is offering. So it doesn't matter if there's no basis. Hints! Also, the language of mathematics is incomplete.
Love is...
- a battlefield
- a social disease
- all you need
291: My date for the evening just got postponed until a later hour, so there's a good chance I'll be around to make stupid jokes.
How do you walk?
- right through that door
- like a man
- this way
- on the wild side
294: On the other hand, I just remembered that some friends of mine from high school are in a ska band that's playing in town tonight, which sounds like it could be either really, really fun or really, really terrible.
Why shouldn't you worry?
- every little thing will be all right
- there'll be sunshine after rain
- after all you'll be standing tall
OK Cupid thinks I should date someone with the (apparently completely non-ironic)username "Cosmogina."
Is it just me or this totally insane? Brings to mind either a horrific yeast infection or a too-devoted reading of a terrible magazine.
Won't you feel silly when you learn her name is simply Gina Cosmo, and that she's wonderful.
If you...
- see her, say hello.
- 're feeling sinister, go off and see a minister.
- don't cry, then you just don't feel it deep enough.
- can't see my mirrors...
- know what I mean, and I think you do.
298: OkCupid tells me she is 40% my enemy.
But hey, at least she's "scarcast/c"...
Hmmm. Only 24% my enemy. I wonder where Essear and I differ?
Oh god now I'm feeling bad about publicly mocking this person.
I wonder where Essear and I differ
Where it counts?
Yes, but do you got your flippy-floppies?
I'm picturing how 293 would be treated by that "Love is . . ." cartoon with the weird nude couple.
But back to the test:
What should you be given?
-shelter
-one good dose of thunder
-a man after midnight
-love, love, peace on Earth, light, life, freedom from birth, hope to help me cope with this heavy load
What else should you be given?
-weed, whites, and wine
-that Christian side hug
-one reason to stay here
-a home where the buffalo roam
Argh. Buck is going to pick up Newt at school, as he may have broken his thumb. I told the boy to stop hustling the other kids at pool.
He's been watching Leverage?
I looked through the Oxford Dictionary of Superstitions, and it didn't really clear up the black-cat issue. But apparently in some cases it's lucky to simply meet a black cat, as long as it doesn't cross your path - in particular you should let it in your house if it drops by, and it might be lucky to touch or possess.
I'm around, but I plan to be weeping in the bathtub (for privacy) in about thirty seconds, so I think I should stay away from commenting.
Gave you my jelly roll and he ain't give you none.
What else should you be given?
-Three steps
What do you see?
-a little silhouetto of a man
-just another lemon tree
-a red door that, if it were me, I would paint black
How would you describe your Poppa?
-didn't preach
-was a rolling stone
-had a brand new bag
311: Pop back in when you've had a good cry. This place is really comforting at such times. Hope everyone is okay.
311: Three-years olds are basically emotional abuse, at times. We're thinking of you.
311: I don't believe in it, but I'm still doing my best to send you good thoughts.
319: I didn't believe in Canada, but the I noticed that Heinz makes it's organic ketchup there.
I plan to be weeping in the bathtub (for privacy)
You mean like High School?
Hope that everyone's alright.
I plan to be weeping in the bathtub (for privacy)
If you want privacy in the bathtub, wouldn't it be easier just to lock the door? Or maybe get a doorstop, if your lock is broken.
Pop back in when you've had a good cry. This place is really comforting at such times.
I feel like such a failure.
This place is really comforting at such times.
Ogged-sprog is rolling over in his crib.
Also, Three-years olds children are basically emotional abuse, at times.
323: Try alcohol and lack of self-awareness.
Or Viagra, if what they say about bike seats is true.
Hope you're okay, Thorn.
I'm distinctly not-drunk in my office. Nothing but tea with tonight's dinner. Time to go home and open a bottle of something.
I'm drinking box wine from upstate New York.
Time to go home and open a bottle of something.
Bottles! Aren't we the fancy ones? Myself, I just open a can of whoop-ass like a real American.
Two more hours at the office until I drive to the airport. Then I can have a drink, board, and hopefully pass out. *twiddle thumbs*
Almost done with the train. Long since done with the beer.
Oh, ouch. Poor (Spr)Ogged. (Just noticing the pic.)
323, 324: Don't worry. You guys can be real pricks when the moment calls for it.
Olympic Circumstraint would make a great band name.
You guys can be real pricks
Not after spending time in the Olympic Circumstraint.
Oh, I'm fine, and the kid's asleep at last. I was able to undo her hairstyle while she dozed/watched the Michigan/Ferris State hockey game. Her other mother needs to learn to watch her mouth, though, and stop hurting my feelings when I've made dinner and a snack and chosen a movie and done most of the childcare while having a headache and ridiculous PMS stuff, because otherwise apparently I cry and then there are complaints about that even though I successfuly hid it from Mara.
Nothing major and nothing serious but I just get frustrated and exhaused. And then I apparently forget to put the butter away immediately while making popcorn (since I had to get it out after Goldilocks complained about first the inadequate buttering, though intervention led to then the way the butter made the popcorn soggy) and that must be a prime harbinger of the apocalypse given the level of sighing and complaint it caused.
Now that everyone else is asleep and the house is quiet, I can sit around and be maudlin and have a glass of wine before being ready for my 3 am wakeup call to snuggle the little one back to sleep. (She slept in own bed without interruption all night last night, but surely I can't count on that to continue.)
So yes, high school, where I'm moping around because my girlfriend is being selfish and hurting my feelings and everyone always expects me to do all the work and it's so terribly unfair. Boo hoo, poor me. But thanks, honestly. Unfogged does cheer me up.
Well, in case anyone cares, I went and saw that ska band with the high school dudes (actually, just dude now; the one dude left the band, it seems). It was very fun, and the singer recognized me and said "Hey, Stanley!" over the mic while he was doing a walk-through-the-crowd/rally-the-kids type thing, so I felt cool for half a second. I gather they're, like, legit now, as they have a wikipedia page and everything.
Your mom's got a Wikipedia page, Stanley.
258
It's funny, this bothers me because interacting with people with ill-founded beliefs an a polite way that will make them comfortable feels to me as though I'm being really disrespectful to them. ...
Um, I don't really agree with this.
342: Well, yeah, Bave. She's fucking legit.
339: So sorry, Thorn. Sounds like a crummy night. And, fwiw? Nothing wrong with Mara seeing you cry. Letting her see you handle challenging emotions in a healthy way is good for her.
343: That's an interesting and valuable perspective.
Listen to God, for your enemy is talking.
||
I didn't know Rahm Emanuel had a finger partially amputated after an accident while working at Arby's during high school.
|>
In-flight liveblogging: Tragically not asleep yet.
I've long harboured a romantic ideal in which being a lesbian means having a partner who would be as helpful and useful and right about everything as I am. But Thorn has ruined that for me. Does there always have to be a 'man' and a 'wife' in each couple?
On a lighter note. Someone once asked me what star sign I was. Told her I didn't believe in astrology. She said, "Oh, you must be a Scorpio, they're very skeptical." I don't remember whether I told her to fuck off or just thought it.
Asilon, I think if Lee were the one commenting here, she'd point out how much childcare she's doing now that I've gone back to work and that she's tired all the time but I make her put Mara to bed anyway and I take long baths but can't even tidy the living room or remember to get to the counseling appointment on time and bring the paper we needed filled out. And then you'd probably have the same response.
I've only finished my second week back to work and I think this new-parent thing is just a difficult balancing act for all couples. Or maybe heebie will report no problems dropping HoPo at daycare and working full-time and then I'll have to tell myself it's because she's done it before.
There have been some difficult discussions lately about how to deal with some of the more problematic parts of Mara's history and I think that on top of exhaustion has both of us more frayed than we'd usually be. The long weekend should help a lot.
Ah - sorry, I probably shouldn't have been joking about a somewhat painful situation. I'm not reading anything you write and thinking badly of Lee, I promise you. Nor of you either of course! New parenthood is really difficult.
It always surprises me how many couples split up when their children are babies or toddlers - I kind of think, look, everyone knows this bit is shit, it doesn't bring out the best in either of you, why not just wait a year until things have settled down a bit and see if you still hate each other then? I guess their answer to me would be something along the lines of, "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that."
Oh, I wasn't bothered at all, asilon. Plus you were probably just being a Scorpio! (I have no idea what that means.)
Mara is a Scorpio and when my aunt, who's also one, was trying to buy her a Christmas present, she ran across a really cute Scorpio t-shirt and decided against it because she didn't want to offend us if we were totally anti-astrology. I thought she was being very sensitive and I wouldn't have minded, since it's no sillier than any of the butterfly shirts Mara has. Instead she got a shirt with the name of my aunt's home borough, which is exciting for Mara because it has letters on it, so everyone's happy.
I love that a three year old gets excited about seeing letters on stuff.
I'm charmed that chris y loves that a three year old gets excited about seeing letters on stuff.
I'm enraged that JP Stormcrow is charmed that chris y loves that a three year old gets excited about seeing letters on stuff.
I'm rather bemused that Turgid Jacobian is engraved that JP Stormcrow is charmed that chris y loves that a three-year-old gets excited about seeing letters on stuff.
I'm sticking with "engraved", thank you, Apple.
feel better, thorn! things get easier.
alameida is right, thorn, it'll improve.
Should we do an "it gets better" series for raising toddlers?
363: funniest comment mcmanus ever did make?
What would you rather do?
-Listen to Coltrane than go through all that shit again.
-Be no other place on earth than on the street where I live.
-Rip your heart out of your ribcage with your bare hands and throw it on the floor and stomp on it and stomp on it until you die than spend one more minute with me.
-Be a forest than a street.
Probably everyone got violently sick of this meme 200 comments back but I suddenly felt like playing.
Well, it does get better (although a friend and I decided that the so-called "terrible twos" were nothing compared to the "fucking fours"), and then it gets worse again and then eventually they grow up and it gets better again. I don't want to delude anyone that it's just constant amelioration from here on.
I'll play with you, Smearcase!
Who are we?
--the world
--the sleepyheads
--the champions
--your friends
--who we are
--stardust; we are golden
--not what you think we are; we are golden
261: Same here. Or at least I say it.
350: but was she right about your sign?
So, befitting this conversation, I met my cousin's psychic fiance tonight. I've learned that my given name is very strong, but adding UNG's name thereto weakened it considerably. Also, my boyfriend should go to law school.
How many:
- More years have I go to let you dog me around?
- Seas must a white duck sail before she sleeps in the sand?
- Holes does it take to fill the Albert Hall?
- Miles to Babylon*
* Bonus question: Can I get there by candle light?
366. As somebody remarked to a friend when hers were about two, "Of course, you've still got to get them out of gaol when they're 25."
What is it gonna take?
- a lotta love
- a whole lotta precious time
- a miracle?
re: 366
A friend refers to his daughter as a threenager as she's in that oppositional-defiant phase. His daughter is also, afaict, hysterically funny and precocious so he has compensations.
Where will I be?
- watching you
- home for Christmas
- there
- back
I've learned that my given name is very strong, but adding UNG's name thereto weakened it considerably.
Now they tell you...
Who am I in love with?
- my best friend's girlfriend
- Jesse's girl
- the other woman
- my best friend
Do you wanna be:
- Evil?
- A billionaire?
- Bobby's girl?
- Sedated?
Do you:
-ever wake up lonely in the middle of the night
-hear what I hear
-feel like I do
-know the way to San Jose
375 - is she three or a teenager? Because that one would work in either direction.