Oh, also: all my flights were on time, checking oversized luggage was a relative non-hassle, and air travel was generally pleasant. Nice job, airlines!
Some people like living in a bubble where everything is carefully tailored to their preferences, especially when they're on vacation and trying to leave "real life" behind.
I don't feel that way, of course, but I can see how other people might.
Some people like living in a bubble where everything is carefully tailored to their preferences
I call it "my apartment". I don't vacation there.
For reasons bewildering yet profitable
I'm going to have to assume you seduced, married, and murdered a wealthy widow.
I'm going to have to assume you seduced, married, and murdered a wealthy widow.
Something much easier to do in a sheltered resort (or on a cruise ship) than out in the real world.
I don't vacation there.
Maybe you should. You seem to spend most of your non-vacation time flying around the world, after all.
We found ourselves, bewilderingly, at one of those. It was impressively awful.
6: The voice of experience? Back in my day, we just lifted purses in the Howard Johnson lobby.
9: I had a mozzarella sandwich with a really good tomato on it. So there was that.
And there was Presidente beer, which beer I really like.
I'm finding it quite suspicious that both Stanley and Sifu are claiming to be bewildered at having ended up staying at resorts. Surely there was some element of agency involved in the process of events by which you guys ended up at these places?
I mean, couldn't you have just stayed at essear's apartment instead or something?
13: I went to play drums for an hour in exchange for an absurd amount of financial remuneration. I was figuring Sifu had a jetpack failure and emergency landed on the private beach.
It was impressively awful.
I did get to experience my first swim-up bar. That wasn't enough to carry me through several days, though.
16: You get your money for nothing and your mozzarella sandwich for free.
17: I always figured the immediate downside to the swim-up bar was that you had no way to pay. Do they even accept wet cash? "Room 834" will get you a drink, I guess. But how do they even know you're in that room?
I always figured the immediate downside to the swim-up bar was that you had no way to pay.
I can think of some other downsides.
18: That fucking sandwich was $10.45. But I had a per diem, so it was pretend money.
21: Would you be less upset if I had looked-up the guy from Dire Straights and put "opinionated" in front of his name?
22: Don't stress that iPod, Mobers. It's tender. Like me.
19: the place we went was all-inclusive (as well as being quite cheap, hence the horrible food) so that wasn't an issue.
Anyway, I heard that resort bars sometimes use pop-beads for drink vouchers. You can make a little bracelet of them or shove them in the pocket of your trunks. (2nd hand info. I vacation in Nebraska.)
It was impressively awful.
I've never actually stayed at one, but I've visited the giant Hilton (I think) in west Maui a couple of times. At least as the one I've been to, the beach is quite lovely, the drinks are good and not ridiculously overpriced, the food is tasty (particularly the breakfast buffet), and the spa is excellent. I expect staying in the hotel would drive me insane, though. (And you couldn't pay me enough to go to the luau there.)
Cruise ship has to be worse. No matter how cloistered and bubbly, the landed resort provides at least the possibility of getting away.
Like a lot of things, its that you get to pretend you're part of a somewhat richer demographic, and do whatever you think those people do
Chaos theory tells me that there's no knowing for certain.
30: Today, I pretended I was Dutch and didn't eat at Arby's.
Is it too late in the thread for me to say "Oh, I've been on a cruise" in the manner of "oh, I've been to Prague"? I actually already was offered the perfect opportunity to use that line once this evening* so it's just starting to feel like a theme.
I've been-on-a-cruise been on a cruise though. I liked it at the time. I'm not sure I would now. Frankly, at this point in January, though, I'd stay in the burnt ruins of a resort if it were sunny and warm.
*by means of the question "Have you been to Prague?"
I've been on a cruise. I haven't been to Prague, though.
33: Another couple of weeks of this cold, and I'll sign-up for the cruise where everyone gets the runs.
33: Frankly, at this point in January, though, I'd stay in the burnt ruins of a resort if it were sunny and warm.
Oh, piffle. I'm just getting acclimated to the cold weather. -16 Fahrenheit for a low tomorrow night. I'll be eating soup of course. But the real piblokto madness doesn't really set in until the third week of February, when it's bleak and cold and dark and you realize there is still more than a month of winter left. That's about the time you wonder if maybe Arizona isn't such a bad place to live after all.
Ah well, musn't grumble.
Third week of February with a month of winter left? I remember the upper Midwest better than that. You've got about two and a half months left, reckoning by any reasonable definition of winter!
I said more than a month of winter.
9 months of winter, 3 months of damn poor sledding.
I had lunch outside today. What a lovely sunny day.
Yeah, well, there was probably riff-raff around.
The idea of taking a long boat trip - say, passage across the Atlantic - appealed to me until a 10 (or so) hour ferry ride left me bored and restless.
42
Another supposedly fun thing I'll never do again? Maybe DFW's greatest non-fiction essay.
44: Agreed. Love it. It's the sort of thing that allows you to say, "Oh, I've been on a cruise" in the "Oh, I've been to Prague" manner of 33.
Wait, did I stumble upon a literary reference?
If you think being trapped in the all-inclusive resort is bad, try being trapped in the all inclusive resort on a law firm "retreat." You know how the ability to get lots and lots of alcohol seemed like the one saving grace of the resort? Psych! Now it's made everything worse! Why, it's just like the office, only warmer and with bonus vague unpleasant drunkeness and uncomfortable skin-baring and you can't leave.
in the manner of "oh, I've been to Prague"?
I love you so much, Mister Smearcase.
If you've read the DFW and are looking for further material on travel by boat, pick up William Langewische's The Outlaw Sea. The chapter on the sinking of the Estonia ferry is terrifying. Money quote: "Among married couples the strong were delayed by the weak. It is evident from the rarity of single spouses among the survivors that many couples decided consciously to die together." Magazine version here.
Why, it's just like the office, only warmer and with bonus vague unpleasant drunkeness and uncomfortable skin-baring and you can't leave
We call that "the Christmas party".
48: I am enjoying reading this, but am somewhat disturbed by the author's continual use of "winner" to mean "survivor."
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Argh fuckity fuckity fuck. That was the shittest hour of my life in a long long time. Argh. I hate dealing with fucking stupid landlords.
On the other hand, the $100 library fine I paid off let me get out Alston's Residential Tenancies, which helped get me $200 off rent, so yeah. Libraries: fucking awesome.
(Sorry. I just needed to vent after that, and what else are my internet friends for...)
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50: just reread that. Yes, it is indeed terrifying. I love that sort of detailed disaster reporting and Langewiesche does it well; look up his piece on Egyptair 990.
I've never been on a cruise. my brother got from NYC to london (no, wherever they land, I guess) on the qe2 and it sounded awesome. oh, they also went on a steamer up the nile, and it was fabulous with huge rooms and all the staff wearing fezzes and whatnot. I totally want to do that now. there's a resort which I love although it's isolated like that--there is just the one hotel in a large bay of phi phi island. possibly the best beach I have ever seen; the food is delicious; you can rent sea kayaks or go by boat to where they filmed the movie "the beach." there's nothing awful about it. you didn't go to phi phi island to look at temples. it's not ostentatiously all-included a la club med, there's just no where else to go to, much. there's 1 town, where you can get e, that's worth something I guess.
People who've done it tell me that if you want to be a total tourist, the Baltic cruises are the way to go. Because cities like Tallinn, Riga and Vilnius are awesome to visit, but too small to stay long and a faff to get to and from.
I had a nice time (twice!) in a all-inclusive scuba place in Cozumel, but (1) that's partly because the only real reason I was there was to dive, and (2) I'm pretty lazy, so morning/afternoon dives were a great excuse to basically laze around doing nothing for the rest of the day; it was nice not needing to leave.
An Apparently Profitable Thing Stanley Will Maybe Do Again (I totally thought of this before seeing 44).
If you've read the DFW and are looking for further material on travel by boat, pick up William Langewische's The Outlaw Sea.
And then Peter Mathiessen's Far Tortuga.
56.1: Not to mention The Sea-Wolf, which is a more natural progression.
I've often been puzzled as to why our international aid budget so frequently neglects those poor souls who find themselves, through no fault of their own, vacationing at a nice tropical resort. People too often forget the terrible rigors of such places. The practically mandatory exposure to dangerous UVA AND UVB radiation, the soul-tearing dilemma which one faces, day after day, between the pool and the beach, the insistence that one ingest drink after drink of cold, cold alcoholic concoctions that eat away one's liver and brain, and, worst of all, those gentle ocean breezes that seduce you to stare in false contemplation over the rolling sea as your hands reach instinctively for your trustworthy blackberry, which however, your unreasonable significant other having coerced you to abandon it in an air-conditioned suite, you fail to find, and in that moment of shocked clarity, you look around, and see, really see, for the first time, just how bad this can all get.
Why on Earth does anyone stay at such places?
It's pretty simple, really. A large fraction of the world's nicest beaches are in close proximity to concentrated populations of poor dark-skinned people. The only way to make affluent guests feel comfortable in such a locale is to hide them away in an enclave. Not to mention, the easiest way to make such a labor-intensive service enterprise affordable to a mass market is to locate it in the midst of the poverty stricken abundant low-wage labor.
(Hawaii might seem an exception to both of these rules, but in fact the enclaves there are not nearly as insular as in Third World countries, and the prices much less affordable. Also, Hawaii is a bit of a special case inasmuch as it is simultaneously exotic and comfortably familiar to mainland Americans. Vacationers pay a premium for that.)
if you want to be a total tourist, the Baltic cruises are the way to go. Because cities like Tallinn, Riga and Vilnius are awesome to visit, but too small to stay long and a faff to get to and from.
Also, lodging and dining on shore in places like Stockholm and Helsinki is ruinously expensive.
Being a ginger, I don't really get the appeal of beaches. Too much sand. Too much salt. Too much wind. Most importantly, too much sun. I'd rather sit in a park.
re: 61
Yeah, ditto. I quite like nice weather, but I'd much rather be wandering about doing things, or sitting at a nice café table drinking a cold beer. I went on a beach holiday last year [not my choice] and spent 5 days trying to find ways to maximise shade above all else.
now I will not blow all of y'all's minds by telling you I love the sun and motionless contemplation of sand, and am currently nut-brown from tanning by my pool. our maid Malou finds it humorous that she and I should try to swap skin colors in the interest of feminine beauty. she's quite fair, really, one of the thousands of gorgeous filipinas who roam the earth and work in some strange place to support their far-off children and husband. I'm almost surprised she doesn't have a job that trades more directly on her beauty, but she's painfully shy, and a good catholic, so she probably wouldn't countenance being a waitress at a karaoke bar.
if you want to be a total tourist, the Baltic cruises are the way to go. Because cities like Tallinn, Riga and Vilnius are awesome to visit, but too small to stay long and a faff to get to and from.
Vilnius is closer to Minsk than it is to the Baltic coast. If you're stopping in Lithuania it'll be at Klaipeda (city) or Palanga (beach).
My grandparents went on one of these along with many other cruises. I think the cities were Copenhagen / Stockholm / Helsinki / Tallinn / Riga / Gdansk / Copenhagen. As well as a couple stopoffs at bucolic locations.
You probably still wouldn't like a crowded, all-inclusive Caribbean resort where enormous, lobster-colored mounds of American-ness plow through huge plates of all you can eat breakfast in order to rush out and claim alternately one of the couple dozen spots on the narrow strip of beach shared by the whole four-thousand-person hotel or a plum spot at the swim up bar so they can maximize their vacation dollar by drinking, motionless, for six straight hours. Or maybe you'd be the type to stroll the beach where you could be hustled by desperately poor locals who had taken a five-hour bus ride to come to the resort district and eke out a living among the stucco casino annexes. Or maybe, if your life circumstances had been different, you would. What do I know.
Do you demand the services of this woman as part of your rock-star treatment?
http://www.cynthiaplastercaster.com/html/longandshort.html
I was raised to avoid beach resorts and cruises. My dad's concept of a vacation was to have the round trip flight and maybe the first night booked at a hotel. From there, you wing it.
He can take it to the extreme. I had to talk him out of flying to Africa to see the gorillas for a day when we were in France.
A couple days ago, he suggested that we should try to see 30 Pacific Islands in 30 days. (There is no way I can vacation for 30 days sadly.)
I stayed at my first all-inclusive for my brother's wedding in Mexico. the food was admittedly crap and the drinks kinda weak, but still it was a good time. there's something to be said for a vacation that requires no thought after booking.
enormous, lobster-colored mounds of American-ness plow through huge plates of all you can eat breakfast in order to rush out and claim alternately one of the couple dozen spots on the narrow strip of beach shared by the whole four-thousand-person hotel
Ha ha ha. If you vait until after breakfast, you are already too late! Zat is MY towel there on the lounge!
A couple days ago, he suggested that we should try to see 30 Pacific Islands in 30 days.
BEEN THERE, DONE THAT.
I think you could probably spend 15 days seeing 2 Pacific islands and have a better holiday (and, probably, have more aggregate island-appreciating time).
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Any of the nerdier Unfoggedarians use GNOME-Do or Docky? I used to use the former, but awhile ago it apparently stopped working, and now I decided to look into it and it seems the two don't play nice together anymore, and it all seems very confusing and hopeless. I just want it all to be simple!
And nobody say "buy a Mac."
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And nobody say "buy a Mac."
I'll just think it.
71: You skipped most of the good ones.
70: My brother, at some resort in the DR, made it a quest of his to beat the German tourists to the beach cabanas. One day he got up at 5am only to find that towels and books (auf Deutsch) had been spread liberally over every chair and table of every cabana, and yet, still, there was no one in sight. He picked one and moved their stuff (controversial!). That sort of jockeying is enough to make me never, ever go to such a place.
70: My brother, at some resort in the DR, made it a quest of his to beat the German tourists to the beach cabanas. One day he got up at 5am only to find that towels and books (auf Deutsch) had been spread liberally over every chair and table of every cabana, and yet, still, there was no one in sight. He picked one and moved their stuff (controversial!). That sort of jockeying is enough to make me never, ever go to such a place.
Alternatively, you could try our three-month jungle trek holiday in New Guinea!
...Anyone?
76: I was about 20 before I first went on a holiday to a beach that had loungers, or for that matter Germans, or for that matter other people at all. Our family beach photos all consist of a small cluster of people standing in the middle of an immense, entirely empty stretch of white sand.
That Langewiesche piece is brilliant and horrific, especially if like me and most people in Britain, you used to travel at least every year on a big Ro-Ro ferry. The interior design of those ships is truly pathological if anything goes wrong (a mixture of big clear spaces and tiny cabins with heavy weatherproof doors everywhere), which is something he brings out clearly. I've always been amazed that it's even legal to have a lift aboard ship. Also, serving vast quantities of duty free booze probably isn't ideal.
Also, score another triumph for "Don't tell 'em anything in case they panic". I can't think of any emergency where this anti-pattern didn't cause far more damage than it prevented.
Also, am I imagining this or can you assess American writers by syllable count? Not much good for Kevin Drum, but Ellen Knickmeyer, Barbara Ehrenreich, Andrew Krepinevich, William Langewiesche and Spencer Ackerman surely beat Brooks, Broder, Goldberg, Reynolds etc hollow.
I can't think of any emergency where this anti-pattern didn't cause far more damage than it prevented.
Actually there were dozens, but we didn't tell you, in case you panicked.
82: the endpoint of that particular relationship is surely Tom Wolfe. I think you might be on to something there.
PG Wodehouse had a bit in the intro to one of his books about how you didn't stand a chance of selling to the Saturday Evening Post unless you had three impressive names, and so his career rather languished until, in a moment of inspiration, he submitted a story as "PELHAM GRENVILLE WODEHOUSE".
I only use GNOME-DO to play Dwarf Fortress, and vice versa.
I grew up taking all-inclusive hotel vacations -- as a flight attendant, Mom had some kind of in for weird discounts available to travel industry people, so they were very cheap for us. One advantage for people with older children/younger teenagers is that it's a controlled location where you can abandon your kids to wander around among the beach and the various pools, while you nap in a lounge chair. I remember all those vacations as dull and sunburny, but I think my parents liked them as a total abdication of responsibility.
And nobody say "buy a Mac."
They don't have to say it. If you peer into the eyes of mac people, there is a ticker whereon this phrase just loops for all eternity.
I read half of the ferry disaster article on the subway. One more mode of transportation surrendered to the realm of nightmares, I am now definitely never going overseas.
88: you probably shouldn't read "Underground" either, or you'll have to read the other half of the Langewiesche article on the bus.
re: 80
Scottish beaches? If so, yeah, I remember being on some on the west coast and in Fife that were both huge and empty. I've not spent much time in the Hebrides but I gather vast white beaches are ten a penny.
89: Oh dear. Yeah I'm going to skip that one.
As someone who is now using a Mac without having bought one, I can say that the lack of viruses is almost worth all the other inconvenieces such as browsers that constantly crash [including Safari], graphic programs that constantly crash [including ones designed specifically for the Mac], and the terrifyingly unreliable "trash can = eject button" convention. It's like I've moved to Europe and I have no hot water or clothes dryer but at least I have government health benefits.
OT: Can we talk Tunisia? (Maybe in a separate post?) Because it's pretty damn awesome.
re: 92
Heh. I generally massively prefer Macs [which I use at work] to PCs [which I use at home] but I share your pain re: the eject button.
My brother, at some resort in the DR, made it a quest of his to beat the German tourists to the beach cabanas.
I recall being in the U.K. during some round-number anniversary of the evacuation of Dunkirk, and someone on television remarked that it was an occasion worthy of commemoration because it was the last time the British beat the Germans to the beach.
"trash can = eject button"
Huh. I have always just used the right-click menu to eject stuff, so this has never even occurred to me before.
I get the occasional browser crash, but it's almost always Flash that brings it down. I had a lot more problems with crashing (and weird video display issues) several months ago, but forum-browsing revealed that it was a motherboard issue specific to iMacs made in a particular factory during a specific time period. Apple replaced the motherboard for me, and it's been much, much better ever since.
God bless the Germans, for establishing worldwide that there are worse tourists than Americans.
(See also "Israelis just finished with military service" in the "Youth, Backpacker" category.)
90: yes indeed. The main disadvantage of picking Hebridean beaches for holidays is that you'll normally be wearing plenty of warm clothing...
I've crossed from Talinn to Helsinki, but on one of those boats that does the route in less than 2 hours (or so). The ferry that bored me was Turku to Stockholm, a couple of days later. Occasionally the scenery was gorgeous enough to make up for having to sit on some damn boat all the time.
Elsewhere on that trip someone recommended DFW to me, but I've still not read anything he's written and that was almost ten years ago.
Greek ferries do a pretty good job of being unpleasant; I took one from Athens to Paros and had the exciting option of standing on the rear of the deck enveloped in diesel fumes or standing inside the cabin enveloped in much, much thicker cigarette smoke. The island was definitely worth it, though.
The only package resorts I've been to have been Club Med skiing ones. They're quite nice. There's no real issue with being cooped up in the resort since that's what happens anyways.
(See also "Israelis just finished with military service" in the "Youth, Backpacker" category.)
First you complain about the Israelis who harangue and physically intimidate people into buying fingernail-grooming products in suburban malls, and now this. Settle down, Adolf.
103: No, but seriously, backpacker Israelis are wonderful/awful. Everyone hates Americans, but they hate boorish packs of Israelis even more. They can make the ugliest American look suave and gracious.
ajay, who wrote the "Underground" piece? Do you have a link?
I'll add to the Langewiesche & disasters list. His piece on the Amazon Air Crash concludes that, in part, it was the accuracy of the navigation systems that caused the mid-air collision.
103: Nein, nein, that vas me.
I haven't taken the Cape May-Lewes ferry since I was a kid, but I suspect it remains the most pleasant way to travel between New Jersey and Delaware.
Actually, after hearing my (Jewish) friend's hilarious impression of stoned New Age Israeli backpackers trying to explain the universe on a beach in Goa, I've always been curious to meet one.
105: "Underground" is a book by Haruki Murakami about the sarin gas attack on the Tokyo Underground in 1995.
109: That doesn't sound nearly as fun as Kusturica's film of the same name.
The catamaran ferry that goes from Monmouth Co., NJ to Manhattan is really awesome. 45 minute trip, free wifi, bar. 1. Obtain g&t 2. Open laptop 3. Briefly noodle about 4. Disembark.
I just got back from a conference at a resorty hotel. I don't care for the controlled environment aspect. Many people getting their eating/drinking/lounging wants satisfied at once is offputting, in a different way than being part of a big crowd as an audience member or traveler, which are not offputting.
Leisure does not scale up for me, it's important that the kitchen/bar/beach be small, even if it's crowded. There's also the implicit lack of choice-- don't like this little place? Go to another, it's easy. Don't like the resort? Leaving is a production; you can do it, but it takes activation energy, and a definite alternate goal. Casual wandering that's likely to end well is a real pleasure, and very difficult at resorts.
Oh, also, I'd like to register my broad appreciation for hot, friendly, and clever postdocs the whole over.
58 made me laugh, and I kind of expected more "oh, you poor dear" type comments.
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Further to the conversation in a previous thread, it looks like you're keeping him after all.
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This (TAL) is about the most horrific sociopathic-boss story I've ever heard.
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116 is expected to be an adaptation of 117.
117: Without even looking, I'm going to guess it's the maintenance supervisor in the school district one.
Yep. I'm guessing I'm not the first here to link about it.
Greek ferries do a pretty good job of being unpleasant
Totally depends on when you go. Magpie and I took a number in early/mid-May a few years ago; they were on the whole quite pleasant. I'd imagine the high season is a completely different story though.
I was on a greek ferry that lost power completely, drifted for about 15 hours, and then had to be towed into a different island than its destination. That sucked.
I was on what I guess could have been called a cruise, but was not fancy enough to be so called, but rather simply a tourist boat ride through Norwegian fjords, where the boat's engines lost enough power that we were still able to make it to the final destination, but had to skip all intermediate stops after the first one to get there, and we were still late. This was fine for me since that's where I was heading, but not great for the people expecting to leave on a camping trip from one of the intermediate stops.
122: that's when I went; maybe I was on a popular route, or something.
We were invited to a wedding once at an all-inclusive resort. I pitched a fit and demanded that we stay at some hole-in-the-wall hotel in town, instead. Boy did the resort make me come to regret that decision, since we had to show up each day to see our friends, and buy daily pass bracelets, and they really do make it difficult to enter their compound.
I too appreciate 58. This Andrew person should comment more often.
121. Schmoozing usually means an evening with well-connected older people, or talking to potential hires. It was nice to spend one evening that was not like that; I'll leave it at that.
The only cruise I've ever been on is Disneyland's Jungle Cruise. But once, just after our intrepid guide shot a hippo, something deep in the boat hiccuped, and off the tracks we went, to float, lost amidst the cannibals for a whole twenty minutes. They had to bring out another boat and we crossed onto it, hopping over the perilous waters to safety and freedom.
And then they gave us each two "go to the head of the line" passes.
I got left behind at an amusement park once.
We were in groups of four, with a teenager chaperone, and he was having fun and just didn't realize he missed the bus home, so we got to play for an extra hour or two.
I got left behind at the state fair once.
Were it not for my father making one last pass around the midway, with my sister on his shoulders, I could be a carny right now.
I could be a carny right now.
Now now, Natilo. Don't fret. We all have our regrets about the road not taken.
Well, if I was a carny, I'd probably be in Sarasota right now. Not sure if that would be a feature or a bug. Probably a bug. Have you seen the size of the cockroaches they have down in those parts? Unbelievable.
Scheduling my vacation now. Y'all successfully guilted me into going picking the eco-ranch instead of the schmancy hotel w/ swim-up bar.
I'm happy to hate on the shmancy resorts as much as the next guy, but I still love a swim-up bar.
Were it not for my father making one last pass around the midway
Someone fails the Stochastic Processes midterm unfortunately. It was only his last pass around the midway because that was the one on which he found you. If he hadn't found you, he'd have made another trip.
Right. Lost things are always in the last place you look.
I thought I was so clever when I came up with this as a 12-year-old. luckily it's easy to blow my dad's mind because he's always incredibly stoned.
79: fuck off.
Maybe it depends on one's parenting style.
81
Also, score another triumph for "Don't tell 'em anything in case they panic". ...
It sounded like the ferry's crew was first oblivious to danger and then unable to cope with catastrophe rather than deliberately withholding information.
The ferries around the Bay of Naples are basically buses on jet skis. Nothing to love or hate about them, they're just mass transit.
And if you're lucky you find €5.00.
I read the ferry article and then couldn't fall asleep last night, just lay there in horror for way too long. Lee needs to learn how to swim this summer, period, not that I think we would have been among the "winners" in such a situation anyhow.
This is probably Shearer bait, but is there something to my impression that not knowing how to swim is a lot more common among African Americans than other ethnic groups? What's up with that? Is it still true after you control for rates of poverty and urbanization? Based on my anecdotal experience with middle class, non-urban Blacks, I'd guess there's something going on there beyond the most obvious sociological factors, but I have no idea what that might be.
139: I did! See you after the war!
Post-Dispatch Investigates: Why Can't Blacks Swim?
See you after the war!
Don't hold your breath, you diabolical Western son of a dog.
144: Apo hits on much of what I'd have said. Lee isn't the kind of woman who's deterred from swimming because she's afraid she'd mess up her hair, but she was adopted and raised by her grandparents, who grew up when swimming pools were off-limits to them. I don't know if they ever even thought of getting her swimming lessons as a kid, though I know she has some family members who do swim. By the time she tried to learn in college, she was a serious athlete and her lack of body fat kept her from floating, which didn't sit well with the fear of water she'd developed over her years as a non-swimmer.
I got her to learn to float a little bit a few years ago when we went on a family vacation where there was a pool, but that involved staying in water under 4 ft deep so she could put down her feet if she needed to. Even that was extremely scary for her, I know. She doesn't want Mara to go through the same thing, though, and so she's determined to get them into a parent-child swim class. I actually think that's a bad idea and that they'd be better off learning separately, but I guess we'll see what happens.
her lack of body fat kept her from floating
What I wouldn't give for *that* problem.
I went to summer camp with W/ndy W/ll/ams, whom I remember despite her being a fair whack older than me, because she was a star swimmer and diver.
I downloaded the dataset of a "Child Rearing Values and Practices" survey in Detroit, 1982. 72% of white parents said it was very important for their children to know how to swim, compared to 59% of black parents. That's actually not a very big disparity - I bet if I can do the proper regressions it will all be explainable by other factors.
Oh, oud, Lee will no longer say she doesn't understand why I hang out here once she hears it involves brushes with those who've had such brushes with greatness. She's a huge WW fan, which I am not. And apo, she's no longer in top shape or anything like that, and I can say with impunity that because I weigh even more than she does.
Based on my anecdotal experience with middle class, non-urban Blacks, I'd guess there's something going on there beyond the most obvious sociological factors, but I have no idea what that might be.
Selective pressure for fear of water in populations hailing from locales with crocodile infested waters?
I actually think that's a bad idea and that they'd be better off learning separately, but I guess we'll see what happens.
I would support you in this -- you really don't want someone nervous in the water teaching a kid to swim, because it's catching, and being nervous makes it much much harder to learn. If Lee's really psyched about the Mommy&Me swim class, could you talk her into taking an adult learn-to-swim class on her own first, so she's relaxed in the water before she makes Mara jumpy?
before she makes Mara jumpy
Whoa there, LB. It's probably too soon to bring diving boards into the equation.
154: How old do you think I am, apo?
Oh. She went to my high school, too. Heh.
136: It was only his last pass around the midway because that was the one on which he found you. If he hadn't found you, he'd have made another trip.
Nope, he was going to go home and break the news to my mother that I was lost. He'd already walked the entire fair a couple of times, stopped by the special Lost Children Booth (which I had not known existed, or I would certainly have gone there myself), and figured that if I was going to turn up, I would have already.
By contrast, in keeping with the instructions of EVERY SINGLE PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT about what to do if you find yourself lost as a child, I had stayed in the exact same place I had last seen him for an hour and a half, then made two trips around the Midway, and then planted myself back at the spot.
I would have asked an adult for help, except, you know, carnies.
In more recent excursions to the Fair, I've noticed that there seem to be a lot more cops than there were in those days. If I'd seen a cop, I probably would have asked to be located, although perhaps shame at being lost would have prevented me from doing so.
I just posted a long ATM in the Why Not? thread, if anyone wants to take a crack at it.
How old do you think I am, apo?
"despite her being a fair whack older than me"
Though I see the transsexual porn actress would be younger than you, and the punk rock singer would likely be older than your mother. Safe to say I didn't do any actual math before asking.
Also, I was until just now wholly unfamiliar with The Queen of All Media.
How old do you think I am, apo?
If only Natilo had spent more time with the carnies, he'd be able to guess this within a year, easy.
155: Yeah, I think it'll be harder to teach Lee than Mara for whoever's doing the teaching. I don't mind being the mom in Mara's classes, but I think Lee needs to get comfortable in the water herself before she even starts to think about how keep track of a child there.
Mara had a pool at her previous foster home and I know her class is going to do some water stuff this summer, so I suspect she'll like swimming and not classify it with washing her hair on the list of things she can't handle. I think she's excited about seeing the ocean next month, too.
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Somebody's parents believed in setting expectations high right from the get-go.
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i'm kinda surprised there are still lost children, given that you can get mobile phones for free.
i'm kinda surprised there are still lost children
I mean, they were on that island for quite some time. Some amount of boinking was pretty inevitable. And anyway, it was just a TV show.
Well, I'll be damned. Controlling for sex, age, income, educational attainment, and even religious denomination, in 1982 Detroit, black parents were still about 20% less likely than non-black parents that it was very important that their child swim. I guess you do need to look at non-socioeconomic factors.
168: I guess when you get a name like that, you keep it going for as many generations as possible.
I guess when you get a name like that, you keep it going for as many generations as possible.
Don't see why.