Personally I don't think public employees should have any right to form unions. A legitimate complaint about the Wisconsin proposal is that it exempts the relatively Republican public safety unions (e.g. police, firefighters) which typically have the most abusive contracts.
Everyone should change their twitter page to cheese to show solidarity.
it exempts the relatively Republican public safety unions (e.g. police, firefighters) which typically have the most abusive contracts.
Abusive how, James? I'm genuinely curious.
Personally I don't think public employees should have any right to form unions.
Towarzysz Shearer is of course correct, unlike those evil unions in the US and Western Europe who sought to undermine the People's Democracy by encouraging mass public sector illegal strikes aimed at destroying necessary austerity measures, and making little secret of the longer term aim of overthrowing the legitimate government and destroying the Republic's economic elites through a sustained campaign of misuse of the rights of free speech and public assembly, all inspired by the foreign enemies of the nation.
Violating the analogy ban is like a day without sunshine.
Abusive how, James? I'm genuinely curious.
By providing extremely generous pensions (and other benefits). See for this recent story in my local paper.
4
As I understand it the proposal in Wisconsin is what the people just voted for by electing a Republican governor and legislature. A bit different from protests against dictatorships.
7: James, if you can find a campaign statement indicating otherwise I'll concede the error, but I don't think Walker campaigned on ending public sector collective bargaining. Everyone seems pretty damn surprised. An indication: some of Walker's supporters are saying they regret supporting him now. E.g.
By the way, Egyptian labor advocates themselves have endorsed this particular analogy ban violation.
In Egypt they think Wisconsin's struggle is the same as theirs....
8
You may have a point in that it appears that Walker didn't campaign on this specific proposal. However it also seems it was fairly clear he would attempt to weaken the public employee unions.
8. Tia's e.g. has been, um, clarified. God bless excitable Tracy Fuller anyway.
And it is of course largely the same struggle, of the working classes against a corrupt political & business elite that managed to plunge the country into a deep economical crisis and is now using the same crisis to enrich itself further and destroy any resistance against it.
I don't know how much is shown about it in America, but the revolution in Egypt is far from over: Mubarak is gone, his government is gone, but the system is still in place. Now you get the struggle between the middle classes, happy to be rid of Mubarak but equally happy everything else is back to normal, and the working classes who want real change.
A bit different from protests against dictatorships.
Not all that different. By many accounts, a renewed Egyptian labor movement catalyzed the anti-Mubarak explosion. Consider:
In 2008 we saw the 100,000 strong April 6 Youth Movement emerge, leading a national general strike. And in 2008 and just in December 2010 we saw the first independent public sector unions emerge. Then just on 30 January 2011 clusters of unions from most major industrial towns gathered to form an Independent Trade Union Federation.
Emphasis mine; quotation found in this excellent piece by my friend Mark Engler, whose Democracy Uprising page is worth a Like on your FB.
the revolution in Egypt is far from over
This analogy has been getting a lot of play in various places, IIRC.
I am aware that the above comment is nearly contentless.
Rightbloggers Denounce the Wealthy, Treasonous Schoolteachers of Wisconsin
Naturally Shearer's going to point towards some unrelated shenanigans to bolster his case but what the hell, let's actually look at Wisconsin.
They post the formulas here.
http://etf.wi.gov/publications/et4107.pdf
The formula calculation is as follows: Final Average Monthly Earnings x Creditable Service x Formula Multiplier = monthly amount.(I left off the possible age reduction factor for simplicity as it doesn't always apply)
The multiplier for cops is .02 and for teachers it's .016. Let's assume a cop and a teacher each making 60k a year. At 35 years the teacher could retire at $33600 a year. Maybe the cop drinks more/burns out quicker and so at 25 years could retire at $30k.
Personally I don't think public employees should have any right to form unions.
Why stop there? Why not take away the vote? Why not deny them access to the courts? Why would they need free speech, if not to lobby for more taxes on the decent people? I mean, if they're not perfect independent Randian private-sector snowflakes they're not really people, are they? I mean, perhaps you could run the public services with slaves? It worked for Ottoman Turkey.
Fuck you. Really. I don't give a fuck about your excuses, and boy will there be a bunch of those as soon as this POST request 200-OKs, because libertarians are all about the excuses. What you propose is simply a reflection on your moral character.
My patience with listening to risible half chewed Hayek wank from people whose half chewed Hayek wank got us into this trouble just ran out. It's capital, not income. Perhaps it regenerates with time. But at the moment, there's no more left. You used it all.
I can't stand to listen to this shit any more.
Seriously. Libertarians basically think people should be "free" to do anything except speak, organize, publicize, or basically want anything, like, for example, to live.
Well, now that James has come out as opposed to liberty and the pursuit of happiness (his views on life remain unclear), can we have clarification on the question of all men being created equal? (Yes, I'm aware that this expression excludes women, Jefferson no doubt meant it to.)
Abusive how, James? I'm genuinely curious.
By providing extremely generous pensions (and other benefits).
Republican: someone who believes that a public sector employee who has an acceptable pension is being "abusive" but a public sector employee who beats a human being until death is simply employing "enhanced interrogation".
||
And going slightly off topic, here is an article about ratfucking.
|>
Workers of the World, Unite.
and
Winning isn't everything, winning is the only thing.
On Wisconsin.
Jodi Dean is getting very excited. A lot more on her site.
I have unsurprisingly been readin' a lot 'bout revolution lately, actual and theoretical.
It's not an analogy, there are people moving back and forth from Egypt to Wisconsin. There is constant communication. Jodi is amazed.
Violating the analogy ban is like a day without sunshine.
Very British?
14:But Martin Wisse explains current circumstances, succinctly.
Personally I don't think public employees should have any right to form unions.
You can't take it away, Shearer. Fuck your government and fuck your laws, and fuck the pieces of paper that list my "rights."
I know I said I liked the constitution, but it's mainly there, obviously, to keep Shearer and gov't in line, not the people.
The people can and should do whatever the fuck they want
26 is awesome. Also, Alex is dead right.
Tia!
Collective bargaining would be a problem only if and to the extent that the executives negotiating with public sector unions were not very good at their jobs of (i) budgeting, (ii) negotiating and (iii) obtaining public support for their negotiating positions.
Well, speaking of collective bargaining, I returned my ballot papers today. So we'll see if strikes will result.
I wouldn't be that surprised, Bob; there were some British student protestors who turned up in Tahrir Square. EasyJet rioters!
21: Why not take away the vote?
That does come up from time to time. Nothing mainstream ... yet.
34. What's the casus belli specifically? Which Union?
h/t Digby
'We Stand With You as You Stood With Us': Statement to Workers of Wisconsin by Kamal Abbas of Egypt's Centre for Trade Unions and Workers Services
Unlike jodi, I am not getting real excited until the people of Wisconsin bring down their gov't, i.e., until Walker, the Fitzgeralds, and the other Republicans in Wisconsin resign or are removed from office. A "victory" that is just a compromise or negotiation is just a defeat, a temporary hold.
Because the larger point is for the people of Wisconsin to understand that they can do it, that just because a plurality or majority of Wisconsinites or Irish or British or Egyptians elected assholes doesn't mean the losers have to abide by the results.
"The rulers rule by the consent of the governed"
Be it 50% or 30% or one, me, the majority rules by consent of the minority. No one can command my consent. The rest is violence.
re: 37
UCU -- AUT/NATFHE etc as was. I'm not a lecturer, but I'm in a job that is classed as 'academic related', and so the UCU is our union.
There's two ballot papers -- one on upcoming funding/job cuts, and one on the big restructuring of the pension scheme [which will cost new members hundreds of K, and existing members somewhere over 100K].
http://www.ucu.org.uk/index.cfm?articleid=3787
and
http://www.ucu.org.uk/index.cfm?articleid=4761
For the record, I have a much more expansive definition of "violence" than most people, and consider many like Gandhi and MLK to be somewhat disingenuous.
If you are Ghaddafi standing in a square surrounded by 30 thousand people who hate you, you are physically threatened. Let's not lie about demonstrations being non-violent. The threat is there.
And it goes back to Weber, and the monopoly of physical coercion in the State. The State does claim the right to compel your body, to move you away from a location or tell you where to walk.
Everybody understands that blocking someone, standing in their way, is coercive, threatening and an act of violence.
That sitting in front of the tank is not very effective doesn't make it non-violent. When it is one hundred people surrounding the tank we can understand it better.
Semi on-topic re: the other leg of the analogy:
The real battle: Whose end time crazies are crazier? Prophecy Clock: Eschatology of Islam and Christianity Collide in Egypt .
Islam's eschatology is similar to Christianity. Like most things of satan, however, Islam is an imitation leading many into deception. The 12th Imam is expected to return in the end times and bring the peace of Islam to the world for seven years with Jesus Christ as his prophet.
James what should be done about the underfunded public pensions already threatening?
"Well, now that James has come out as opposed to liberty and the pursuit of happiness (his views on life remain unclear), can we have clarification on the question of all men being created equal?"
I'm a bit surprised about this question. Shearer is a scientific racist.
41. It's all good Ebionite doctrine. We pay far to much attention to Paul.
Yes, the type focused on IQ scores of ethnic groups. It took me a couple of years of immersing myself in blogging before I realized how common it is in America. It's sort of, kind of within the bounds of respectable opinion. Ross Douthat for example endorses it, and while talking about it in his column could be risky, I think, it certainly didn't stop him from getting one in the first place.
When I came across this post by T Coates, I thought of Unfogged.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/02/wikiwomen/70753/
I submitted a guest post on this topic last week, which I will reproduce here.
The drama over public sector union busting in Wisconsin seems worthy of a FPP, given our community's affection for that state. The cynicism involved is breathtaking: the spurious justification, the nakedly political exemption of police and firefighters.
I'm probably too enraged to think straight, but my three gut reactions:
1. The opposition really ought to go McManus on their asses. The "sick out strikes" by teachers and quorum-busting by the legislative Democrats, which I would ordinarily find mildly distasteful (procedural liberal technocrat that I am) are, if anything, an understated reaction. I'm not quite ready to say "burn shit down", but "make Wisconsin ungovernable" would not be too far, in my mind.
2. This kind of thing makes me jealous of the GOP. When they win a sweeping majority, what do they do? Magnanimously offer the other side a seat at the negotiation table? No, they kick the other side in the nuts while they're down. And then twice in the kidneys to make sure they don't get up again. They're relentless, and it works. What would be comparable actions on the Dem side? Oh, I dunno, revoke tax exempt status from politicized megachurches. Double the IRS auditing staff for corporate tax returns. Allow employee contributors to corporate PACS to retract their contributions with guaranteed anonymity. And probably lots of other things if I took a moment to think about it.
3. It has made me a lot more sympathetic to the trial lawyers lobby. No, really! Let me explain. As recently as 15 years ago, I might have said "Public employees unions? They do sort of need to be cut down to size now and then, so maybe this isn't so bad." Now I'm much more conscious of the need for quasi-unconditional solidarity among Dem interest groups. It's the only way to avoid being destroyed piecemeal. Reasonable limits on punitive damages? Never!
25: Do you think there's any question of where James stands on "all men are created equal"?
Further to 50, I subsequently added:
4. I'm beginning to reconsider my opposition to political strikes. (In truth, this is pretty close to the circumstances in which I already endorsed political strikes.)
When I came across this post by T Coates, I thought of Unfogged.
Feel like expanding on that? I'm curious.
45: I will never forgive you for pwning me, David. Never ever ever!
2When Matt was here, and before I was actually blogging, I was often tempted to comment. But it seemed that whenever a social science post came through, no matter how well written, in comments, it eventually came down to black people having smaller brains. Or some such. Enforcing strong standards in comments is a kind of general value that, I think, has specific impact on women and others."
Preach it, Brother Knecht. Now that I'm middle aged, my natural temperment would be to be a moderate technocrat. But the Republicans have turned from an ordinary right-of-center party into people dedicated to destroying everything that's great about America. They have to be stopped.
All I read of Coates is when somebody links to him, but that seems mostly deep feelings for liberal platitudes.
Rortybomb on the Wisconsin Walker budget repair bill.
The bill would allow for the selling of state-owned heating/cooling/power plants without bids and without concern for the legally-defined public interest.
Koch Brothers are in energy, and financed Walker.
55: Huh. I don't remember threads here turning racist like that, and certainly not anyone saying anything like that without getting instantly shouted down by everyone else.
60: 55 is a quote from the TNC post.
I just watched this video via TPM of Chuck Schumer on CNN talking about the possibility of a government shutdown. Hopefully this isn't representative of the TV coverage we'll get when the shutdown happens, since it's mostly Candy Crowley berating him for not instantly agreeing to Boehner's budget, telling him the shutdown is the fault of the Democrats, and complaining that Democrats are forcing the shutdown by not cutting Social Security. What a great grip on reality our TV "journalists" have....
61: Yeah, I know. I thought David was citing it as why TNC's post made him think of Unfogged, which I took to mean that he thought this problem existed here. Maybe not.
I thought the discussion of Wikipedia that TNC quoted was interesting, and certainly the part about people being forced to vigorously debate and defend their points of view sounded like Unfogged. It was discussed as a possible reason why relatively few women participate in Wikipedia, and my first thought was that this isn't true of this blog, but scrolling through this thread, at least, there is a fairly skewed gender ratio. I wonder what the actual gender ratio among active commenters here is. Maybe I perceive it as being more balanced than it really is.
60: But there's only ever been one or two frequent commenters who are racists in Yglesias comments, and they're awful in general. It was still what he zeroed in on.
I'm still the prettiest princess of all! Look at me!
Qadaffi seems to have lost control of the east, and he's arrested his CinC. He may go down yet, which I wouldn't have believed yesterday.
He may go down yet, which I wouldn't have believed yesterday.
I kept hoping, but it never happened.
I killed the blog by making people think of Qadaffi and oral sex?
50.2: From this righteous rant by a Democratic Wisconsin legislator you can discern some of the GOP tactics in play with this bill.
re: 55
Shearer is on record on this one, in many threads. It's not a common point of view on Unfogged, in general, though.
Long-time lurker, first-time etc.
I've been in the capitol in Madison on and off since last Monday. It's quite the event, and just might even turn out well. Like Knecht says, solidarity has started making a lot more sense in the past week. I look forward to seeing the trial lawyers local on the barricades.
That's a good pseud. Also, better keep the barricades ice free before the trial lawyers show up looking for people who fell instead of solidarity.
"Someone in Egypt has been paying attention to what's happening in Madison and wanted to send a message of solidarity from across the globe -- so they ordered a pizza.
"It might seem like a small gesture, but it's overwhelming to the staff at Ian's on State Street -- a campus staple mere blocks from the Capitol -- where in the last few days, they've fielded calls from concerned citizens of 12 countries, and 38 out of 50 states looking to donate money to provide free pizza to the Wisconsinites who have congregated here.
"On Saturday alone, Ian's gave away 1,057 free slices in their store and delivered more than 300 pizzas to the Capitol itself."
71: Welcome! Please keep letting us know how things look on the ground.
I'm having a tea party for pretty princesses only!
Little princess, you've been saying the site is going down for three years now. Shit or get off the pot, dumbass. Let's see some followthrough already.
21 22 23 24
... because libertarians are all about the excuses. ...
As I have explained before I am not a libertarian. Among other things libertarians tend to support open borders and I don't.
The owners of Borders don't support open Borders anymore. At least not the one by my house.
78. Anything to do with this, do you think?
19
Naturally Shearer's going to point towards some unrelated shenanigans to bolster his case but what the hell, let's actually look at Wisconsin.
I said "typically" because I didn't know anything in particular about Wisconsin. However the formulas you found show police and firefighters in Wisconsin receive more generous pensions (and are eligible to retire earlier) than teachers (btw the teacher's pensions are generous compared to typical private sector pensions). Also in many places police officers are able to increase their pensions by working large amounts of overtime in the final years before their retirement. I was unable to determine if overtime counts in Wisconsin.
Here is story about a former Milwaukee police officer competing in Ironman events while collecting a disability pension. I doubt the teachers contract is as generous.
James, are these arguments against unionization, or arguments for better negotiators on the part of the government?
32
Collective bargaining would be a problem only if and to the extent that the executives negotiating with public sector unions were not very good at their jobs of (i) budgeting, (ii) negotiating and (iii) obtaining public support for their negotiating positions.
In the case of pensions the main problem is that the executives in question have little incentive to negotiate a good deal. When things blow up 20 years later they are long gone. In addition pension accounting is quite complicated and easy to manipulate. So responsible executives can be fooled into agreeing to costly provisions and irresponsible executives can disguise the cost of the promises they are making.
82: That's Pittsburgh's problem. They've punted the pension issue down the road for longer than than.
43
James what should be done about the underfunded public pensions already threatening?
Some suggestions:
1) Move toward honest accounting for pension promises. This will be difficult as the accounting issues are complicated (and somewhat debatable) and the true picture is often horrendous meaning there will be tremendous pressure to adopt rosy scenarios. So expecting completely honest accounting is likely unrealistic but just forcing public agencies to use the same rules as private companies would be a big step forward.
2) When you are in a hole stop digging. Terminate the existing plans to the extent legally possible and put employees into defined contribution plans. Defined contribution plans don't have to be less generous than defined benefit plans but likely would be because they don't have the same accounting issues so their true cost is harder to hide.
3) In cases where fulfilling existing pension promises is truly unrealistic cut them in an equitable way.
Something not a lot of people know is that many public workers aren't covered by Social Security or Medicare. Pensions for private sector workers are always supplemented by SS & Medicare.
If any commenters with some disposable income would like to donate something for the protesters, here are some helpful numbers:
To supply protesters with WATER contact (Capitol Center Foods at 608-255-2616). To supply protesters with FOOD contact (Burrito Drive at 608-260-8586, Silver Mine Subs at 608-286-1000, Ian's Pizza at 608-257-9248, Pizza Di Roma at 608-268-0900, or Asian Kitchen at 608-255-0571
(Ian's seems like it's at capacity, so I suggest giving some of those other places a little love.)
86: I think that's just state employees. At least, the state took my SS contribution and used it for their own retirement plan. The big bonus for them was that they didn't have to pay the employeer part of that until I was vested, which I never was.
81 to 82 as well as to 80.
As far as I've noticed, the only argument that goes toward the actual elimination of (or barring of in the first place) public sector unions is that contracts negotiated to the benefit of union members lead to electoral votes on behalf of the negotiating executive's party. This is the union-as-special-interest-group argument, and the claim is that the votes of public sector employees should not be buyable in that way.
The argument is disingenuous in the extreme.
What's a bit odd about this hard-truths line on defined benefits pensions is that one would think they represent a situation where states are objectively able to provide a nice thing that otherwise is quite hard to provide. After all, bearing risk is icky, and states are in a better position to bear risk than almost any other entities in the country.
I think that's just state employees
It also varies quite a bit. I am a state employee, but pay both.
81
James, are these arguments against unionization, or arguments for better negotiators on the part of the government?
Depends on what you think is easier to fix. An alternative in the case of pensions is to mandate that the unions be responsible for managing the funds and liable if they fall short. So each year the union would negotiate the employer contribution and paying it would be the extent of the employer's responsibility.
I also have a defined contribution pension plan.
87: Depends on the state. I'd go into more detail, but I'm on my phone and one-fingered typing is excruciating.
93: Yes, I worked for a goofy state.
An alternative in the case of pensions is to mandate that the unions be responsible for managing the funds and liable if they fall short.
This seems very weird to me. To my mind, the big advantage of the state as an employer is precisely that it can handle risk in a way that smaller entities can't; I don't see why we'd want to cut up the pension funds into individual union-sized shares. And of course, that would rule out changes in which unions represent which groups, etc.
What's a bit odd about this hard-truths line on defined benefits pensions is that one would think they represent a situation where states are objectively able to provide a nice thing that otherwise is quite hard to provide.
I don't have mine so why should you have yours?
3) In cases where fulfilling existing pension promises is truly unrealistic cut them in an equitable way.
Seems you thought before that if Social Security were adjusted after the fact that it'd be a horrible horrible thing.
It's not an analogy, there are people moving back and forth from Egypt to Wisconsin.
I knew that people had moved from London to Egypt but not this.
An alternative in the case of pensions is to mandate that the unions be responsible for managing the funds and liable if they fall short.
Illegal under the (IIRC) Taft-Hartley Act. The capitalists weren't comfortable letting unions control the voting rights of so many equity shares.
Further to 86, the Willy St Co-op is also delivering food to the capitol, and it's a good healthy alternative to the places Tia mentioned above. They're at (608) 251-6776. I'd have more on-the-groundy updates, but illness has kept me away the past couple of days. So I'll just help direct Unfoggedarity.
97
Seems you thought before that if Social Security were adjusted after the fact that it'd be a horrible horrible thing.
According to current projections it is completely realistic to fulfill the existing social security promises. If this changed I would not object to an equitable reduction.
In the case of pensions the main problem is that the executives in question have little incentive to negotiate a good deal. When things blow up 20 years later they are long gone. In addition pension accounting is quite complicated and easy to manipulate. So responsible executives can be fooled into agreeing to costly provisions and irresponsible executives can disguise the cost of the promises they are making.
Is there any way that this is different for public sector executives than private sector executives?
96: This. I find myself increasingly in discussions with folks may age who never even considered public-sector jobs back in the day and now lament that they may have chosen poorly (although almost all of them still would still if they had the chance over). The ever-potent politics of grievance has been honed to a knife-sharp edge by the modern day GOP. Ultimately in support of people with no grievance whatsoever.
89
What's a bit odd about this hard-truths line on defined benefits pensions is that one would think they represent a situation where states are objectively able to provide a nice thing that otherwise is quite hard to provide. After all, bearing risk is icky, and states are in a better position to bear risk than almost any other entities in the country.
Defined benefit plans are not actually particularly risky with honest accounting, they are just expensive. The problem comes when unrealistically high rates of return are assumed (to keep the cost down) and the fund managers are forced to take risks in order to attempt to achieve the assumed returns.
99
Illegal under the (IIRC) Taft-Hartley Act. The capitalists weren't comfortable letting unions control the voting rights of so many equity shares.
Does Taft-Hartley apply to public sector unions? And didn't the teamster's union adminster pension funds?
96, 103: Yes, this. A recent radio program on the Wisconsin (et al.) matter rendered unionized public employees as "elites."
Race to the bottom, indeed.
It's terribly stupid to talk about the need to suppress the buying of public employee votes by busting unions. Without unions, the ability to buy votes with jobs and money is still there - you just also get to threaten individuals with arbitrary dismissal if they don't fall into line. Plenty of autocracies have enormous, non-unionized public sectors for just that reason.
And I don't see how the massive, massive number of federal contractors is any less susceptible to vote-buying. Lockheed and their many employees (at least a few in every congressional district) know what side their bread is buttered on.
This isn't about money, it's about preventing an independent center of political power.
102
Is there any way that this is different for public sector executives than private sector executives?
Yes, the accounting rules for private pension plans are more honest (although still deficient) and there are legal requirements (albeit inadequate) about funding levels. And the stock market does pay a bit of attention so converting to defined contribution plans will help the stock. This of course explains why many private employers have switched.
When I was a city employee I wasn't in Social Security. I think my Social Security right now comes in at a buck four-eighty.
Fortunately my retirement account is portable to many public employee retirement accounts in California. If I were to find a job with the state I could credit my existing account and time put in towards vesting.
Yes, the accounting rules for private pension plans are more honest (although still deficient) and there are legal requirements (albeit inadequate) about funding levels.
Interesting. Good to know.
And the stock market does pay a bit of attention so converting to defined contribution plans will help the stock. This of course explains why many private employers have switched.
Wow, that in itself tells us that by definition, defined-contribution plans are worse for workers.
107: Without unions, the ability to buy votes with jobs and money is still there - you just also get to threaten individuals with arbitrary dismissal if they don't fall into line.
Right. See my last line in 88.
And this from the Teaching Assistants' Association, my union: "We are collecting info for folks who want to volunteer remotely. Send your name, email, and phone to: volunteertodefendwisconsin@gmail.com". In Wisconsin.
the formulas you found show police and firefighters in Wisconsin receive more generous pensions (and are eligible to retire earlier) than teachers
I think it's generally accepted that it's a more feasible to be an effective 60 year old teacher than it is to be an effective 60 year old cop or firefighter.
(btw the teacher's pensions are generous compared to typical private sector pensions)
Because the private sector in this country is a fucking feudal system that should be set on fire. In a police department or a school district the person running the operation might make 3x what a teacher does as opposed to 100x (or more) as is common in your vaunted private sector. At least as a cop I can see the wage freeze this year was due to a genuinely tight budget and was applied across the board. Not near as fun as ebay when we were told everything was tight at the same time the company bought a private jet for the execs and the CEO was literally a billionaire.
If I was the not so benevolent dictator marginal tax rates would take a big jump and pay at any organization public or private would be limited to a single digit multiplier (perks and stock options included) of the lowest full time employee. I would also offer everyone the chance at higher Social Security benefits by opting for a higher witholding rate.
Yes! Down with the analogy ban! We will occupy this comment box until the analogy ban is on a plane to exile in Dubai.
the analogy ban is on a plane to exile in Dubai
In a magical underwater commune!
SS and public sector jobs just depends on whether your particular organization opted in or not. My mom taught in CA and the teachers did not. My dad worked for LA County and paid into SS. The norm for police in UT is that the departments haven't opted in but the school districts have.
116: Not sure. Giving money, obviously. Here's a resource for that that just appeared: http://www.helpdefendwisconsin.org/. Otherwise, perhaps the folks who respond at that email address will have specifics? Information moves in fits and starts inside the capitol these days.
116: You could go to Madison, but behave very stand-offish.
What's the benefit to not opting in to Social Security? Why would anyone want to do that?
116: TAA is having some issues with communicating in detail what they're asking for from people, IMO. But if you call them (608.256.4375) they'll answer and you can ask them what they're looking for if you'd prefer to do that before you hand out your contact info. One of the things I know they need is mirrors for defendwisconsin.org -- the Capitol blocked it from their wireless network.
95
... To my mind, the big advantage of the state as an employer is precisely that it can handle risk in a way that smaller entities can't; I don't see why we'd want to cut up the pension funds into individual union-sized shares ...
Big entities only have an advantage for diversifiable risk not for undiversifiable risk. So some retirees live a long time and some die young but a big pension fund (unlike an individual) can assume an average life span. This is a diversifiable risk. However the risk that a pension fund will not achieve its assumed rate of return is not diversifiable. There is also the empirical fact that public pension funds systems have demonstrated that with current rules for the most part they are incapable of ensuring sufficient fund are set aside each year to fund them adequately.
113
I think it's generally accepted that it's a more feasible to be an effective 60 year old teacher than it is to be an effective 60 year old cop or firefighter.
Is there a mandatory retirement age for cops and firefighters?
The analogy ban is like Godwin's Law if Hitler lived in Ancient Greece and wasn't a dictator.
113: Yay, gswift! Of course, you apparently hate America.
I'm willing to accept that it's a lot harder to be an effective 60-yr-old firefighter than teacher, but I do wonder about the police thing. (This is another angle on my old hobbyhorse about policing being too militarized, & the doctrine too focused on control & domination of particular encounters.) But even if we set aside the question of how much physical presence cops need, aren't there a lot of desk jobs, or investigative jobs that don't require anything that would air on COPS? (Is that show still on? What an abomination.)
121: States can't opt out all the way. You still have to pay the Medicare/Medicaid part. And the individual employee has no choice in the matter as far as I know.
Governments do it to save money. When you limit to state employees, you've dumped the actual poor people out of the thing so the state can provide a better retirement than SS using the same or lower contribution rate than SS.
127: Now that I'm closing in on 40, a fit 60-year-old officer could catch me easily, but I hardly ever run from the cops now. Back when I used to run from the cops often, I was much faster.
127: aren't there a lot of desk jobs, or investigative jobs that don't require anything that would air on COPS?
That would be a question for however police departments handle their personnel deployments, whether they move older/more experienced cops to desk jobs (which in a lot of cases are surely of a clerical nature, so the skills match might not be there) .... In short, I don't really see your point. You're talking about the inside management of police departments, which I at least am not qualified to critique.
I was just pushing a bit on the justification for police needing fewer years than teachers to accruce the same monthly benefit, if it's that they need to be physically fit. But my instincts regarding police retirement policies may be out-of-wack due to only having really looked at the NYPD's policies, and those seemed crazy to me (20 years, then retire at half-pay? Woo!).
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So, due to ... not taking steps to fix the problem, my 90-day Schengen visa expired mid-January. I'm supposed to fly out to Morocco tomorrow morning. Anyone have any estimates of the likelihood of my being let back into Germany? .5? .2?
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131: Regardless, x.trap, if there are perceived problems with particular bargaining agreements with particular public sector unions in particular states, that's a matter for what we might call tweaking. It's no argument for abolishing public sector unions altogether (it's not clear to me that you were doing that - I think you were engaging in a side quibble).
Oh, right, I didn't mean to be implying that. Side quibble.
Don't run from the cops in Germany. I've heard bad things.
I know a couple who overstayed their 90-days in France. On the flight out, they had to go to Germany first and then to the US. When asked at the airport in Germany how long they had been in France, one of them accidentally said 4 months (I don't think there was a date-stamp in the passport, so they didn't need to say precisely) and was told "Don't tell us that. Now, let me ask again, how long have you been in France." They said three months and were on their way.
133. Not to make light of anything, but is Morocco the destination of choice right now? Be careful.
I'm not worried about leaving; the issue is, can I come back? Because you're supposed to only have 90 days within a 6 month period.
138: Well, it should be interesting. I wish I'd kept up my French a bit.
Alas, there's a pretty clear 15.10.2010 Frankfurt-Main stamp on mine. D'oh.
Maybe Wisconsin could raise more money by changing its postal abbreviation to Wii.
I think I have 7 stamps in my passport and three of them say the wrong date [one of them off by 10 years], so that may be a defense for you, x. trapnel.
If life were more like a RomCom, trapnel would marry a German girl to get citizenship. Wacky hijinks would ensue.
144: well, yes, I've given that some thought. The woman referenced here even had a coffeemaker built in to the refridgerator that ground the beans for each cup! No horses, though.
Ooh la la! Did she give you a more thorough trennung?
Well, her father had one. She's still in school.
We're definitely broken-up at this point, although there was one slip in December.
Shit, X! Um, good luck? And if you need to hide from the Grenze-kontrolle, we've got a spare room.
Hah, thanks. To the extent I'm expecting problems, they'll be at the airport coming back, but I appreciate the offer!
Fly into a neighbouring country and then go over the frontier by land where there is no border control. I massively overstayed my time in Deutschland and while the Grenzpolizei gave me a little shit, they basically didn't care. There are definite advantages to being a foreigner of the right skin complexion and nationality.
When I crossed into Germany, they only looked at the cover of my passport, but the African guy next to be got hauled off. Everybody in Germany took me for a German.
151.last: I am *not* plucking the exceedingly tasteless low-hanging fruit.
110
Wow, that in itself tells us that by definition, defined-contribution plans are worse for workers.
Not by definition, a generous defined contribution plan is better than a stingy defined benefit plan. In practice as I said above defined contribution plans tend to be less generous because their true cost is more obvious. There is the additional factor that I (and I believe most workers) would prefer a defined contribution plan to a defined benefit plan of the same actuarial value. Defined contribution plans have some important advantages from a worker point of view. It is easy to evaluate their value as you can see how much is being added to your account each year. They are portable so you aren't tied to one employer. And there is less chance of your employer reneging.
Defined benefit plans with both side inputs are cheaper than defined contribution ones since some of the future beneficiaries die before they start getting benefits. If it's a defined contribution one, they keep what is in their 401k if it's a defined benefit one and they either haven't vested or they have no spouse to get survivor's benefits, the money stays in the general fund.
Life imitates art: a friend on FB lists the Middle Eastern countries currently in unrest, and someone comments "also in wisconsin".
121
What's the benefit to not opting in to Social Security? Why would anyone want to do that?
To save money by not paying the taxes. The social security formulas favor low income workers and do not provide much additional return after you have already earned a substantial benefit. For example in my case I have already earned a substantial benefit working for IBM. The benefit will increase a little as I continue to pay into the system at my new job but the return on the additional taxes paid will not be very good (especially if you count the employer taxes also).
Additionally many poor people would rather have cash in their pocket now than a social security benefit later even though social security is a good deal for them.
Well, a week of protesting is pretty unrestful. I was there for that video in 141, just out of frame. So if anybody needs insider info from, ah, just out of frame of that video in 141, I'm your guy.
154
Defined benefit plans with both side inputs are cheaper than defined contribution ones since some of the future beneficiaries die before they start getting benefits. If it's a defined contribution one, they keep what is in their 401k if it's a defined benefit one and they either haven't vested or they have no spouse to get survivor's benefits, the money stays in the general fund.
This not an apples to apples comparison. The fact that a 401k plan provides a death benefit has value to the worker. As does the fact that you can change jobs without losing a substantial part of your benefit.
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I have what might, with only mild exaggeration, be characterized as my first-ever "real" job interview tomorrow. Wish me luck?
(I know, I'm abusing pause/play, and also: go Wisconsin! I was super-nervous, but I've had enough wine tonight to counteract that. Probably I can't take this approach tomorrow.)
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The fact that a 401k plan provides a death benefit has value to the worker.
"I have a weak heart and a 401k, Laydeez," is a good way for the older gentleman to have a nice, if short, retirement.
Good luck, essear. You will find moves.
159: Ooh, I can answer that: Yes it was.
160: Rock it, essear!
Good luck, essear. Remember, if you get nervous, the trick is to think of the interviewers in their underwear. Or your underwear, whatever works.
OT: Isn't Keir in Christchurch? I hope he's ok
168: Yikes! Hope he's alright there, though some internet disruption seems likely.
Good luck, essear! You'll do great. Just remember that quarks are real and never to have more than one glass of wine.
Gulf of Mexico is still coated with oil and pretty much dead ...Digby
We live in turbulent time (the big news today is that Libyan air force is strafing democracy protesters!) so it's hard to stay focused. But this was a really big deal just six months ago. And now --- it's ancient history. I'm thinking that may be part of our problem. Catastrophe overload....Digby
Wisconson might even bear some resmblence to ohio!
Thanks, all! I think it mostly went well although I got mixed signals about whether I'm really what they're looking for. It was relatively painless, I guess, albeit totally draining.
Has anyone heard from Keir?
I got mixed signals about whether I'm really what they're looking for. It was relatively painless, I guess, albeit totally draining.
I'm really hoping that this was some kind of super-secret villain organization hiring scientists to build the doomsday machine, but it was probably just some college somewhere.
I'm really hoping that this was some kind of super-secret villain organization hiring scientists to build the doomsday machine
Moving to Latvaria might not be so bad, but knowing I would face the wrath of Doom if I failed in my task is pretty daunting.
I don't work for government directly, and I think that most of mental health in MA, has been contracted out, so I have no real pension plan. $12/month after 2 years and more form the company after 20 years.
Social workers in the public sector lead pretty stressful lives. I'm not sure that they should have to retire later than cops.
176 to gswift's 113:
I think it's generally accepted that it's a more feasible to be an effective 60 year old teacher than it is to be an effective 60 year old cop or firefighter.