The article doesn't mention it, but this is an extremely white school district, and odds are high that the "Philadelphia" students being referred to are black.
Alternately, it could be white Philadelphia students fleeing a black school district, no?
Semi-relevant: I just watched Waiting for "Superman" months after everyone else did and am now catching up on the rebuttals and rebuttals to rebuttals.
From the first link in the OP:
"But in all but a few cases, the parents either voluntarily removed the student from school or the student became a legal resident of the district."
Given that the article mentions that some parents had used a relative's address in order to enroll, I take it "became a legal resident of the district" may well mean that the student moved out of the parent(s) home and moved in with the relative? Way to break up the family home!
What a fucking condundrum, if you'll pardon my language. I know too little about school policy and funding to offer an informed suggestion, but the apparent lack of inter-school district cooperation in finding something approximating a solution is remarkable.
Schools are paid for out of property taxes, right? And you pay property taxes whether or not you have a school-age child. I can see someone thinking, "Well, I don't have a kid, but my sister in the next school district over does, and I think my property taxes should be able to pay for her kid's schooling here in this district." That would ultimately be unworkable for all kinds of reasons, but still.
1: It's not. Radnor is whiter than marshmellow fluff.
Our high-minority city school is pretty stringent about residency. We're enrolling our second kid next year and they required a notarized document certifying residency even though we already did that with his older brother who is a current student in the district.
I went to high school with some people who lied about their residence to attend the school. But, in that case it was UMC suburbanites over the county line claiming to live in the right county to go to an urban school. I'm guessing they didn't have to deal with much scrutiny....
3: There are probably a number of occasions when Unfogged commenters have wanted to point out to conservatives and/or libertarians that taxes aren't à la carte, so, you know, come on.
OT: I have said before, and will assuredly repeat, that the only acceptable solution to the problem of New York City's ethnic parades inconveniencing me the many citizens who would rather just get where they are going without being held hostage to the nineteenth- and twentieth-century tradition of demonstrating one's faction's numbers to the ruling class would be to schedule all the parades for the same date and let the various ethnic booster groups donnybrook it out, once and for all.
so, you know, come on.
Did you miss the part where I said it was unworkable?
Schools are paid for out of property taxes, right?
What a great way of eliminating any risk that poor kids might actually get a decent education.
Did you miss the part where I said it was unworkable?
Impracticability is one problem among many and, if conservatives had their voucher-providing way,* not insurmountable. Isn't "local control" attenuated when students' responsible guardian(s) don't reside or, more crucially, vote in the relevant jurisdiction?
* But see previous comment.
4: That Radnor is all-white doesn't eliminate the possibility suggested in 1 that the kids from Philadelphia trying to get into Radnor schools may also be white. Or am I missing something?
7: I see someone hit some drunken traffic this morning.
7: trust me, Flip, the whole parading-Irishmen problem can get much worse than it is in NY. Think yourself lucky it's just drunks and traffic problems rather than blast bombs, baton rounds and IEDs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parades_in_Northern_Ireland
12: And last night. Do representatives of the Orlando, Florida Fire Department absolutely have to freshen up their whitewall haircuts and come to NYC for St. Patrick's Day, block our crosswalks, make fun of our street vendors, gawk at Times Square's bright lights, get in my way?
American Irish appear to be very, very different from, you know, real Irish. And yet I'm pretty sure New York and Boston single handedly support the Irish flag industry.
11 is what I was going to respond, too.
gawk at Times Square's bright lights
Wait, is the purpose of Times Square not to collect all the tourists in one place where they're relatively harmless?
14: I know. St. Paddy's is like all of the shitty parts of Mardi Gras (drunks, assaults, asshole tourists) without the celebration of joy.
In other words, Irish! (American.)
American Irish appear to be very, very different from, you know, real Irish.
Including the fact that a significant number of them don't actually have any idea whether they are legitimately of Irish descent.
11: You're literally right, but practically wrong. The poor white kids in Philadelphia who are trying to go to better schools are up in the northeastern section of the city, crossing the line to Bucks County suburbs. The western edge of the city, which borders the Upper Darby and Lower Merion districts discussed in the article and is 15 minutes from the Radnor district, is predominately black. Scroll down to this map for a quick visual.*
*The map itself is notable for how it documents the population loss, concentration of poverty, and other cascading effects that are disproportionately affecting minority (black/Hispanic) neighborhoods in Philadelphia.
17: "Relatively Harmless: A New Yorker's Guide to Tourists in and about the New Babylon."
17: Well, I support this, as long as we can make it a city-sanctioned honey pot, where we can rob the fuck out of them.
Honestly, though, SoHo is just as bad now.
19: a significant number of them don't actually have any idea whether they are legitimately of Irish descent
Hey! My dad -- known as "Red" as a teen -- was too Irish! Um. He enjoyed joking that his real name was McGillicuddy. (He was adopted, so, er, I really don't know.)
I think an old Irish woman just prank called my work phone.
10: Sadly, I know next to nothing about the issues surrounding school vouchers, except that they're hotly debated. This is one of those public policy matters I've sidelined, no doubt in good part because I don't have kids.
Isn't "local control" attenuated when students' responsible guardian(s) don't reside or, more crucially, vote in the relevant jurisdiction?
I guess. In my ignorance I'm supposing that "local control" here refers to elected School Board members. Why are they elected rather than appointed in the first place?
I should read a primer on this stuff.
a significant number of them don't actually have any idea whether they are legitimately of Irish descent
Yup. If my family is as Irish as it thinks it is, we are seriously inbred.
That said, at some point it's all about the cultural observance. Like, do you have drinking toasts next to pictures of the Sacred Heart and an Irish last name? Irish enough for America!
St. Patrick's Day is such a different holiday on the East Coast. In California growing up, it was a day when, if you weren't wearing green, any random person was "allowed" to punch you once, as hard as possible. The enforcers of this rule didn't appear to be particularly Irish, as I recall.
And this is why I've never celebrated St. Patrick's Day.
For us it was pinching instead of punching.
if you weren't wearing green, any random person was "allowed" to punch you once, as hard as possible
That's incredibly bizarre. I didn't know California was big on either Irish-loving or conformism or random aggression.
Do they still do that? Or not so much any more? It may have been a passing fad. (They do those in California.)
I'm guessing random aggression. When I was in middle school, it turned from punching to ass-pinching. We had a sort of harrassy middle school.
American Irish appear to be very, very different from, you know, real Irish.
They don't just like blowing up British people, they like blowing up EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD!
Growing up an hour outside of Boston, there was a moderate amount of pressure to acknowledge the green, but I don't remember much more than occasional joshing here or there if you didn't.
I don't think that where I grew up anybody particularly thought of it as an Irish holiday. It was a random day when you wore green or got punched.
it turned from punching to ass-pinching. We had a sort of harrassy middle school.
Words of wisdom: go to the Irish bar on Cinco de Mayo, and the Mexican bar on St. Patrick's Day. This may be the only unequivocally correct statement I ever make on this blog.
I've thought about getting a shitty apartment in Beverly Hills for the school district, but it's probably cheaper just to use church schools. I sure wish my local public school didn't suck quite so much.
You were the one who had teachers in the local school warning you not to send your kid there, IIRC? That does sound like a problem.
Halford, forgive me if this is intruding, but I'd had the impression your kid lived mostly with her mom -- so it's her school district that's relevant. But I'm realizing that since you'd talked about preschools recently, that's not so.
33: Same for me. At least 50% of my hometown in a Boston suburb was Irish Catholic and everyone wore green on this day.
I made sure to wear green today because I'm 2% Irish. Solidarity! Just don't make me drink a Guinness.
a significant number of them don't actually have any idea whether they are legitimately of Irish descent.
We're right bastards, all of us.
I wasn't warned personally, but my neighbor was, and the school is famosly bad (as are tons of other schools around here). Apparently because of where I live I count as black for the non-affirmative action affirmative action for the magnet schools, so there's some chance of getting into a public school that's merely mediocre and not horrific if I can navigate an incredibly complex lottery system. Otherwise it's private school or move.
38 -It's roughly 50/50, and we live in the same school zone anyway.
41: Have you read Sandra Tsing Loh's book about trying to get her daughter into a good school in LA? I suspect she's being overly dramatic in her descriptions, but even if you strip away the drama it seems like an awful struggle.
American Irish appear to be very, very different from, you know, real Irish.
Yeah, they're American.
My in-laws, Americans whose father and both maternal grandparents were born Irish citizens, will have none of this shit.
28 et al: Yesterday I heard about that practice for the first time I can remember. Oddly enough, from someone from California. I've known all my life that you're supposed to wear green on St. Patrick's Day, but I wasn't familiar with a specific punishment for not doing it. This led to a 10-minute discussion about icing bros, "punch buggy no punch-backs", and similar issues. (Summary: I reserve the right to pinch and/or punch back.)
My family isn't at all Irish, but we tend to celebrate St. Patrick's Day relatively seriously. Now that I think of it, the fact that my dad grew up an hour from Boston might contribute to that, but the main reason is that it's my sister's birthday. And she happened to go to college in Boston. I understand she had a lot of fun when her 21st birthday came around.
I think it was pinching and not punching where I grew up. And, as Jackmormon said, didn't really have much to do with the Irish.
In fact, I never really met Americans who strongly identified themselves as Irish or Italian or any other sort of more specific version of "white" until I went to college.
San Francisco has a lot of Irish Americans. A lot of actual Irish immigrants too.
The ethnic group that doesn't get a lot of love is German Americans. A big chunk of Americans have German ancestry. If gemany wasn't the asshole of the twentieth century, there would probably be more parades and stuff.
47: especially given their links to beer.
I am picturing drunken revellers in plastic Pickelhauben, with T-shirts reading "FORGIVE ME, I'M GERMAN"
I don't think there's a lot of recent German immigrants -- to get that energy going, you need a core of people who grew up knowing family members from whatever the old country is.
I don't have a lot of green in my wardrobe and rarely know what day it is so I'd be pretty lucky to wear green on St. Patrick's Day, and yet the few times I've been pinched or punched as a result have been by girls to, I assume, flirt. I find it hard to believe this practice actually exists in significant amounts.
I guess my family was mildly more Irish than your average Irish-American family, in that there were always Sinn Féin newsletters about, not to mention, like, actual visiting relatives from Ireland. Oh, and one time my grandmother signed me and my brother up for Irish stepdancing classes. (We eventually quit going; if only we'd realized the potential financial gains to be had in Riverdance. Alas.)
Oh, and definitely pinching not punching. Both in suburban Chicagoland and in Virginia.
50.2 should have "for reasons other than flirtation" inserted.
48: Heh. "PLEASE DON'T HIT ME, I'M POLISH"
What 49 said. Lots of names in America have German etymologies, but aren't most of them from mercenaries or pilgrims from the 18th century or earlier? Some significant amount older than Italian and Irish immigration, at least. And even if Italian and Irish immigration is now at baseline levels, they still have, or had until recently, ethnic enclaves in major cities. The only enclave of ethnic Germans are Pennsylvania Dutch.
Isn't Oktoberfest the everyone-pretend-you're-German holiday in the US? There used to be a German-themed bar here that ran basically a month-long party in October. Admittedly, it was thin on anything authentically German, aside from the beer and the dirndls. (Yes, Moby, there really were dirndls.)
My Dad's family is all German-American, and up until 1917 maintained a strong ethnic identity -- I have a baptismal certificate for my Grandfather in German from their Lutheran Church, and he was a fourth generation citizen. Completely vanished after WWI, though.
39: Just don't make me drink a Guinness.
I'm sorry -- I didn't hear what you said there.
54: plenty of 19th-century immigration to the US from Germany as well, I thought? It was a continual worry for empire-minded governments in Berlin in the late 19th century that they couldn't persuade their people to go and settle their colonies (Tanzania, Namibia, New Britain etc) because they were all, frankly, horrible, and the Germans who wanted to emigrate all did the sensible thing and went to America instead.
But the problem may have been that those emigrants didn't stay in cities where their ethnic pride could be harnessed for political reasons, but went out and became farmers instead.
It's also too bad that Witt's post fell on St. Patrick's Day, which gives rise to people yakking about various kinds of whiteness.
54 really could not be more wrong, in almost every particular. I believe more "white" Americans have German ancestry than any other country, and by a significant margin.
But the problem may have been that those emigrants didn't stay in cities where their ethnic pride could be harnessed for political reasons, but went out and became farmers instead.
Not true at least in Minnesota. I edited a German speaker's dissertation on German vs. Irish temperance politics in St. Paul. I think there was a significant German presence in Chicago, too. German ethnic pride went phut in WWI and then was buried in concrete in WWII.
57: Hunh? I wasn't trying to be clever, I just don't like beer and people drink Guinness on St. Patrick's Day. Did I write something offensive?
And the enclave point is insane. St Louis? Chicago? Milwaulkee? San Antonio? Yorktown in NYC?
I believe more "white" Americans have German ancestry than any other country, and by a significant margin.
Bingo. 1990 data shows 58 million claiming German ancestry. 2000 data still very high, but I can't find a write-up of it. 2010 not really released yet (foreign-born is different from ancestry, obv.).
63: Did I write something offensive?
Not at all. It was a joke. I like Guinness myself, but among those who enjoy some beers at some times, there can be a divide between those who like darker beers and those who don't. I think it's an in-joke, then.
64: I'd take Yorktown off the list. When I was a kid going to school nearby, there were the merest vestiges of what had been an ethnic German neighborhood there -- some German business run by old people. By now, I don't think anyone could identify it as a German neighborhood at all, unless someone told them it had been.
Cincinnati, though: I've met Cincinnatians who seem very energetically German-American identified.
Punching, definitely, where I grew up. I came home with bruises every St. Pat's because I'd forget, or wear a green other than a pure green, and it was an excuse to beat me up without teachers doing anything about it. I've always associated St. Pat's Day with violence.
In NYC, it seems like the whole week around SPD exists as a dare for Irish-Americans to say n****r on the subway.
There was a substantial mid-twentieth century immigration from Germany, but it mostly involved Jews, who for some reason seem disinclined to celebrate their national heritage.
(Godwin's Law violation, fifteen yards and loss of down.)
||
Bummer. The NYT goes to a digital subscription model.
Up to 20 articles per month for free; after that, $15 per month, from what I can tell.
|>
Something like 20% of the total American population has German ancestry. Basically everywhere outside of New England, the Mexican border, Utah, and the Old South outside of cities, German ancestry exceeds English ancestry or anything else. And much of this is from the early 20th century, too. My great-grandparents were German/Austrian and came to the Bronx about 1910, though they played down their ancestry after WWI. The Bronx was a German city; the north side of Chicago was entirely German; so was Cincinnati, Milwaukee, and St. Louis and Central Texas. A friend told me that German is still widely understood in his mother in laws town in the Dakotas. At the turn of the century countless German villages picked up at once and relocated to Iowa -- I know their great-grandkids. Basically the northern Great Plains is one giant German enclave which still exists as such. German newspapers are still published and read in Chicago. American culture is just as much a product of pre-WWII Germany as of Britain. Maybe this is part of why Germans don't have a big-deal ethnic holiday -- they partly define the deracinated American background.
In NYC, it seems like the whole week around SPD exists as a dare for Irish-Americans to say n****r on the subway.
I have only heard that particular slur from Southerners or from people who live on Staten Island, and the latter wasn't until fairly recently. Actually, now that I think about it, is it odd that I can't ever remember hearing it on, like, the street? Or the subway? I remember being college the first time I'd heard someone say n****r* in a way that wasn't, like, a discussion on the use of the word in contemporary culture, and being genuinely shocked.
*You meant "nagger", right? I kid. That remains one of the funniest sequences ever on television.
71: "Readers who come to Times articles through links from search, blogs and social media like Facebook and Twitter will be able to read those articles, even if they have reached their monthly reading limit."
Do they still dye the river green in Chicago? Kind of freaked me out my one SPD in Chicago.
68 -- yeah, I was just thinking historically along JM's lines; clearly German-American identity just merged into "white" almost everywhere after WWI and WWII. I went to a good old-school German restaurant on 2nd Avenue that was still open at least a few years ago, though.
I've met a surprisingly large number of immediately post 1945 non Jewish German immigrants in Southern California. I assume that they are all Nazi aerospace workers brought over by the military, but that's probably unfair.
74: That's...hilariously stupid. I mean, what is the point? Why would you pay?
74: Can one of you that subscribes to the NYT start a blog, "Links to NYT articles"? That would be a public service.
74: I noticed that. Now, I don't necessarily want to come to Times articles just when people point me to them, but this surely sets the stage for aggregator (sp?) sites.
But nevermind what this sets the stage for. I'm pretty bummed out anyway.
I assume that they are all Nazi aerospace workers brought over by the military, but that's probably unfair.
a lot of "East German" POWs stayed in Britain after 1945, for understandable reasons. Was this not the case also in the US?
73: Really? I think I am cursed with one of those faces that makes people think I'd be a good person to share conspiracy theories about n****rs with. I look like I might come up with a really good zinger or something.
a lot of "East German" POWs stayed in Britain after 1945, for understandable reasons. Was this not the case also in the US?
How would they have gotten to the US?
76: The architectural firm my father worked for in the 70s and 80s employed a number of Luftwaffe pilots. And one guy who actively celebrated Hitler's birthday, by bringing in a cupcake, putting a birthday candle in it, and singing "Happy Birthday dear Adolf," but he was Italian from Queens.
81: That is...unfortunate. It's not even like you can wear a button that says "Emphatically NOT a racist" without, you know, looking like a probable racist.
I wasn't counting obviously crazy people, though. Like, ranting to no one in particular on the subway? I don't hear you unless you start talking about murdering.
How do they track your 20 per month? IP address? User name? Good thing for them that it's really difficult to set up multiple accounts & email addresses.
85: It does shut off my current bugmenot based access -- presumably thousands of people use the same ID.
How would they have gotten to the US?
On ships. It was too soon for 747s
Interesting. I never thought of the existence of German POWs in America before.
I think it was pinching and not punching where I grew up. And, as Jackmormon said, didn't really have much to do with the Irish.
Pinching. The premise was that leprechauns do the pinching, unless they're pleased by sighting the color green.
Sometimes people are only the puppets of leprechauns. It happens.
St Patrick's Day:
1. in Billings and in Missoula, Montana, if you didn't wear green you got pinched. (it could be a miniscule amount of green; kids were always wearing socks with a green band and then fooling each other into thinking they didn't have any green on. This seemed dumb to be because the result was that first you got pinched and then you got to chastise the pincher for being wrong, but you still did get pinched)
2. the ASL sign (in Minnesota and I think in DC? I don't know how widespread it is) is a stylized arm-pinching.
It hadn't previously occurred to me that (a) the pinching tradition might not be universal, at least in the US, or that (b) the sign might not really be related to the pinching tradition. But given (a), (b) seems possible.
82: See Summer of My German Soldier (the movie of which apparently starred my first TV star crush, Kristy McNicol). In fact a small number of German POWs were sent here to work midwestern farms, but I don't think they were allowed to stay.
Another source of German-speakers in the United States were the German emigre communities of the various Eastern Europe nations, which became rather unpleasant just after World War II as the iron curtain was falling. this group also seem disinclined to celebrate the heritage.
85: I wondered that. If it's by IP address, there aren't many options unless one's willing and able to do the whole roving IP thing, which I am rather clueless about.
Then you have to ask yourself whether $15/month is excessive for the perceived value. I consider NYT reporting of interest, indeed valuable. $15? If I had more money, sure, with no quibble.
the German emigre communities of the various Eastern Europe nations
Yes, this. I had a high school teacher who claimed to be the last living speaker of his dialect of German, from some ethnically German valley in Romania. He'd tried to teach it to his daughter, but she refused.
Sometimes people are only the puppets of leprechauns.
And then the rest of the time...
84: I've tried to think of what is the right thing to say to get it to stop once it starts. Usually there's like a knowing glance, in the grocery store or something, and if you don't do it back, it escalates. "You know...[glance]" No response. "How... they...[glance]" At some point, I have to give up the no-response response because I've now been cornered, and I try to say something like, "I'm really not a sympathetic ear for you on this one." And that's when they start yelling the n-word.
With the SPD crew, it's usually because they get on the subway and start screaming about how they're drunk in New York and some black guy mutters something about why don't they just go get drunk at home. Instant n-word-maker.
2. the ASL sign (in Minnesota and I think in DC? I don't know how widespread it is) is a stylized arm-pinching.
The ASL sign for St. Patrick's Day?
95 and previous: It sounds like NYC is a crappy place for race relations.
I definitely grew up self-identifying as German, though my families have been in Missouri since the 1870s or 1880s. We have lots of family birth and marriage certificates in German. Last people to speak German were my father's grandparents, though my grandfather taught me some German songs when I was a kid. They sound like nonsense, and I had assumed for a long time that they had gotten pretty altered in the transmission. Only once I reached a pretty high degree of fluency did I start to understand them, and realize they're crazy sounding dialect.
Never got pinched on St Patrick's day or knew of it as a tradition, although I did make an effort to wear green just because it was something you did. Now I feel vaguely smug about not having worn green, except on the years when I forget the day completely. I don't own much that's green anyway.
98: Depends where you are. I've never heard that kind of shit in Brooklyn. In Queens, it seems to be more frequent, and in Manhattan, it's usually tourists who start it.
Cleveland was the worst. Southern racism is really awful, but in Cleveland it was constant and bitter and angry.
I just got back from an errand I had to run near my office at 43rd and 5th, and good lord is it hell on earth out there.
I'm totes Irish by descent (great-grandfather), but the cultural weight placed on it by my family was approximately zero. Spring break of my freshman year in college, I visited a friend in NY whose Jewish mother made corned beef and cabbage on St. Patrick's Day so I wouldn't be homesick, and it was the first time I had ever had it.
I am not wearing any green and will be drinking italian wine tonight; my specific observance of the day is limited to extra care in walking lest I step in vomit.
My family was a bit more culturally Irish than that -- both maternal grandparents are immigrants -- and so there were bits of stuff like Clancy Brothers albums and homemade sodabread, but no St Patrick's day observance, and no corned beef and cabbage.
92.2: I might be willing to pay $15/month if I weren't so infuriated by all the typos in their articles that have appeared in the last year. There have been typos in the title for an article on the front page. If I wanted to read biased reporting riddled with typos I could read a blog for free.
The list of our family's heritage is very long and Western European, but I'm pretty sure that our complete lack of a culture is because at some point my ancestors were ashamed of being Jewish.
100: I doubt it's a matter about which feeling smug or not is appropriate. It's a somewhat arbitrary holiday, for those who aren't particularly Irish. I never knew that some Irish types are apparently racist. I actually don't know why the thread has taken this turn.
I will attempt to restrain any inappropriate smugness I feel related to my grey and pink attire.
I never knew that some Irish types are apparently racist.
Oh, God, I've never, ever heard frank, open anti-black racism like I did in Ireland. The instant people found out I was American they'd start these long speeches about how much they admired our Rebels in the Civil War, who were fighting for what's right, etc. before explaining why.
Again, Mexican bars on St. Patrick's day, Irish bars on Cinco de Mayo. That's all you need to know, people.
By far the most egregiously racist statements I've heard were from white New Englanders, but it's not like I've done scientifically valid polling of American racism.
We can say with 100% certainty that Celtics fans are racist assholes, however. All of them.
some Irish types are apparently racist.
Sure, but you can replace "Irish" with almost any other word that makes grammatical sense and it's still true.
If I wanted to read biased reporting riddled with typos I could read a blog for free.
I'll use that as a springboard, since apparently I'm determined to talk about whatever I want today.
Been reading over at Fallow's, and confirmed something I've thought for a while now. Guest bloggers are almost always terrible. They write huge blocks of text; they take forever to make a minor point. They think someone's interested in them. They seem to have notions about what bloggers are like and try to adopt what they think are the mannerisms, but consistently fail.
It reminds me that blogging really is a particular skill. Further, if you aren't already blogging, you probably don't want to and don't especially like the form, because there are (effectively) no barriers to entry. And if you don't especially pay attention to blogging, you won't be very good at it your first time trying.
In conclusion, since the dawn of time, guest bloggers suck.
my ancestors were ashamed of being Jewish
Why would you assume shame was their reason?
109: Okay. I was not aware of that. The few Irish people I know (still live or were raised in Ireland) aren't like that, so I hadn't heard.
This might not be the ideal post for that sentiment, Megan.
113: Present company excepted, presumably.
114: As opposed to fear? I don't know. We definitely were here before the rise of Nazism, though.
109. God yes. A close friend was the co-founder of the first anti-racist organisation ever set up in Ireland - in 1986(1). She faced a horrific reality as the mother of a black child, but at least it's officially frowned on these days.
118: Well, yeah, but it's not like there was ever a comfortable time to be Jewish in backwoods Missouri.
115: Our own emir and others of my friends in Ireland are of course excepted, too. But my attempts to conversate with the locals generally did not end well.
120: Oklahoma, Osage country, but sure, that's fair.
Shorter unfogged: Who hates who more?
Or whom.
116 - OH NO. I didn't mean that. Of course I was already thinking of everyone here as deeply immersed in blog culture. Holy shit, Witt has been part of the blog community for years longer than I have. That's not what I meant! Commenters here are more bloggers than the people Fallows is bringing in (I noticed it in Coate's breaks too).
More caveats! I mean, when bloggers recruit their smart outside friends to write guest posts, and their smart outside friends have a strange self-indulgent sense of the form, but some how miss the interesting parts.
Yes! Present company excepted, so obviously that I didn't think to say it, but I should have! I'm sorry if I gave offense to people here; I hadn't even considered that interpretation because I think of you as inside the blog community.
In Queens, it seems to be more frequent
I actually noticed this the one time I went to a Mets game. Sea of white. Just...just really white. Yankees games are (or were, haven't been in a while) different.
Oh, God, I've never, ever heard frank, open anti-black racism like I did in Ireland.
I've gotten this in a lot of foreign countries, actually, usually ones with no black people of their own. My current working theory is that everything they know about African Americans or Africa comes from either horribly racist American television, from, like, the 80s (formative years, etc.) or typically sensationalist and biased news reports.
I've also been told open racism towards blacks is, like, pretty acceptable in China, but I have no first hand knowledge.
Goddamn black people just get screwed all over the place.
It's too late, Megan. Didn't you know that Witt is a trained superspy and ninja librarian? You should probably go on the lam and try to run for a shack in Wyoming or something, but your days are numbered.
I don't go to Yankee games often, but that's who Dominicans in my neighborhood root for. I don't think I've ever seen Mets swag locally.
My current working theory is that everything they know about African Americans or Africa comes from either horribly racist American television, from, like, the 80s (formative years, etc.) or typically sensationalist and biased news reports.
Just like where I grew up!
I don't go to Yankee games often, but that's who Dominicans in my neighborhood root for.
Do they subject Yankees fans to autos da fe?
Goddamn black people just get screwed all over the place.
You got that right, ma'am.
autos da fe?
Setting cars on fire is a Detroit thing, isn't it?
My German ancestry is the reason we had this book and its sequels lying around the house. It still cracks me up.
126: usually ones with no black people of their own
Unfortunate turn of phrase.
Yeah, the sea of white thing at the Mets game was pretty noticeable. I think the only other time I've seen anything resembling that is at a hockey game, which was a much smaller sample size, and not at all surprising. (Really, hockey?) Like, even wall street events or hoity toity shindigs at the Yale club have been more diverse.
And aw, Megan, I don't think anyone took it that way! I also agree with you. There doesn't appear to be much respect for the blogging form outside of the blogging community, but it is a form, goddammit, and thus requires discipline and skill if you're to be any good at it.
Hi everybody! Happy St. Patrick's Day!
113: This is why I don't let people guest post on my blog. Because talking about birds requires some serious quality control. I mean, you let someone have a post and they get so off topic, they might even talk about cats or dogs!
You know what really sucks? When bloggers retire and bring on replacement bloggers. Horrible, the lot of them.
I'll say. Luckily, sometimes they at least realize their inadequacy for the job and mostly stop posting.
There's an additional factor at work that puts guest bloggers in a tough spot.
Good blogs tend to contain an assortment of long-running ongoing conversations about things that the bloggers are interested in.
It's difficult for a guest to cleanly insert themselves into the conversation, even if it's a topic of interest for them as well.
a significant number of them don't actually have any idea whether they are legitimately of Irish descent
Word. And why the push to be Irish? All the criminality of the Italians but without the hot women and good food.
There has never been a guest poster as ogged (pbuh) was for Kevin Drum.
I have a tiny penis, but I'm still proud of it! I dressed it in green today, so none of you cheeky monkeys better pinch it!
Bloggers crossing platforms can work fine. People who don't blog taking it up for a week in a very public space ends poorly.
142: Snf. Snf. There is too good Irish food.
62: German ethnic pride went phut in WWI and then was buried in concrete in WWII.
Also not true in Minnesota. German is by far the majority ethnic identity here, for all that you hear about Scandinavians. A hell of a lot of them are German Catholics too, which winds up being the worst of both worlds -- conservative politics and no interest in fun. There are Oktoberfests all over the place here, and New Ulm has the third largest copper statue in the US -- Arminius, or "Hermann the German". Also, Bockfest.
SPD has never been all that big in Minneapolis, given that most of the Irish have always lived in St. Paul. A friend of mine, whose ethnically Scottish for the most part, tells about how his grandfather had a bright orange suit, which he would don every SPD in order to ride the bus around St. Paul and pick fights with the Irish. Said grandfather was also instrumental in keeping mobbed up Irishmen out of the building trades in the Twin Cities.
What's truly horrifying is being in St. Paul on SPD, which generally coincides with state high school tournaments (girls basketball? Hockey? I'm never quite sure) so not only do you have crowds of drunk morons wandering around in green plastic bowlers, but there's also crowds of rubes running into things as they crane their necks to look at all the tall buildings. I am just as happy to be volunteering in Nordeast tonight.
Anyway, like I was sayin', potato is the fruit of Ireland. You can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, saute it. Dey's uh, potato kabobs, potato creole, potato gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried. There's pineapple potato, lemon potato, coconut potato, pepper potato, potato soup, potato stew, potato salad, potato and potatoes, potato burger, potato sandwich. That-- that's about it.
without the hot women
This is just wrong. In my experience the men are lambs, the women will kick your ass. Somehow that's kind of hot. But per yesterday's discussion of hotness, I am now somewhat concerned about my tastes. So, you know. Caveat?
This is fun! Let's make more generalizations!
It sounds like NYC is a crappy place for race relations.
I'm going to say in superficial ways and some substantial ones, it's not, at least not particularly. People of varying races here will talk to one another casually (say, asking directions) in the street, for what it's worth--not as true other places I've lived. Anything deeper, I guess it's the same heady blend as most other places of unexamined racism, good faith efforts (at times misguided), some true progress based on things like seeing people unlike oneself inevitably all the day long in this size city, and pockets here and there of unrepentant hate, doubtless.
This is fun! Let's make more generalizations!
Lesbians find pudgy, middle-aged white guys irresistible.
Let's make more generalizations!
I'm not sure Colonel Ization is ready for the promotion, donaq.
Yuk, 151 was awfully earnest. I will atone by ranking in attractiveness the characters of a beloved tv serial.
Hm. It's a shallow pond, but Artie>Christopher>Furio>Tony>Paulie>A.J.>Uncle Junior. Well that was rough going.
151: I'd say the big difference between casual NYC racism and racism other places I've been is that New Yorkers might make racist comments pretty often, but if you call them on it, they have no idea what you're talking about; that's just how [whatever group] is. In other places, white racists seem to be more aware that what they're saying is a racist statement [with the caveat that whatever group is racist too].
155: Tony may be a hulking mouth-breather, but I don't think there's any getting around putting him at the top except by the most circumscribed and superficial definition of attractiveness. He's a force of nature. When we were watching the show straight through, Mrs. K-sky and I both had several dreams in which we sought Tony's approval or protection.
But that's a bad road to go down. I think it ends in playing Marry/Fuck/Kill with the cast of Sesame Street.
151: It's so hard to say things about race relations -- they seem so different in different regions. I don't hear overt racism from people hardly ever: occasionally I'll run into someone who seems to be heading in a nudge-nudge wink-wink *Those* people direction, but I can't recall the last time I heard a racial epithet live from a non-crazy person.
I'd say that what Heebie said about the Atlanta middle class being integrated isn't as true in NY as I wish it was. My parents' social circle was pretty uniformly white, and mine, while less so, isn't anything like demographically reflecting the city. I was very disturbed with myself on a visit to a friend in Tennessee that (a) the friends of hers I met while I was down there were much more integrated than I'm used to, and (b) that I found this very noticeable.
True story, K-sky, I once had a conversation with a defensive self-identified bear chaser to whom I said "there is something perversely hot about Tony" to which DSIBC said "OH YEAH WHY IS THAT PERVERSE DOES EVERYONE HAVE TO BE A SKINNY TWINK" to which I semi-ingenuously responded "I kind of meant because he's a sociopath and a murderer?"
156: Ok, yes, for some reason I get this from cabdrivers, it's true. But it seems to be a sort of equal opportunity willingness to generalize. "And that's what black people are like. Now let me tell you about the Poles..."
Oh man. Looking through my phone the other day, I found the number for a cabdriver who used to hang out outside of a gay bar to make sure the gays got a safe ride home. Turns out he was a completely closeted transsexual. He didn't live as a woman because he would "lose everything." I remember asking him what his name would be as a woman, but I don't remember what he said. One more argument against inebriation, I guess. He was really sweet.
Kermit>Ernie>Cookie Monster>Oscar>Grover>Horn&Hardart>Bert>Guy Smiley>Elmo.
Are there options beyond miss piggy?
158: Ernie/The Count/Snauffleupagus (sp)
Ok, yes, for some reason I get this from cabdrivers, it's true.
I think we can blame Tom Friedman for this one.
They've all had hands in places I don't want to think about.
163: Oy, wait, I was forgetting a racist cab driver a month or two ago. I was heading to East Harlem, he was some kind of second generation Latino, probably PR, and he went straight to "When my people were living in that neighborhood, it was nice. Those people moved in, and they don't know how to take care of anything, they just don't care." Still no epithets, and I managed to steer him onto how the Irish are all drinkers, which I could listen to without having to object to, but that was very overt. Not a common occurrence, though -- it was surprising when he started going there.
I think there's some Muppets/Sesame St. confusion going on here.
If we're expanding to the Muppet Show, there's Janice, and all the chickens you want.
Oh man, I totally out earnest-ed Smearcase.
What! Kermit did cameos on Sesame Street. He was a reporter.
No love for Bert, LB? Or do I vaguely remember that your tastes are less-nerdy, more beefcake?
more generalizations
Northern Californians are just too interested in judging purity.
167: The second is a good, classic "choice.
176: Nerdy yes, tightass (regardless of where the puppeteer's hands have been) no. Although I do love oatmeal. But not bottlecaps or pigeons.
Screwed that link that y'all have certainly seen.
If I ran PBS, I would commission an entire run of Masterpiece Theater performed by the Sesame Street muppets. Also other classics. I'm think specifically of Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf.
178.--I think he'd be kind of fun in bed.
Two--TWO--nicely bouncy breasts--Ah! Ah! Ah!
Janis/Ms Piggy/Janis
that was creepier than I'd planned, but who are the other girl muppets? I think there's a girl version of Elmo but I'm trying to limit kids TV beyond Dora and WonderPets.
Oh God I love that link in 180 so much. I am a child.
182: The Count is easily distracted during orgies.
(Also, I note, with approval, that no one has mentioned Gladys the Cow. She would be crushed, however.)
I am used to the order Fuck/Marry/Kill, so these lists are confusing to me.
Wonderful! But wait! There's more...
183: All the chickens are female. I think one of them is named Carlotta (no, on googling she's Camilla).
174: I was going to suggest you do penance by ranking in attractiveness the cast of a popular television serial but with your muppet Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf you are absolved. Kermit and Piggy are obvs George and Martha. I think maybe Nick and Honey are the Swedish Chef and Beaker. I know what you're going to say: Beaker is the wrong gender, but (though Albee has forbidden such a production) people have talked about an all male production since the thing was written. I actually had this conversation, minus the muppets, with my dad last night. Yeah.
I think if you put Camilla in the one or two spot Gonzo necessarily becomes three.
Oh, right. I guess it's kind of implied that Gonzo is fucking his harem of birds.
I think maybe Nick and Honey are the Swedish Chef and Beaker.
Oh God, I love this too.
||
Dammit, now I'm really irritated that I plead out.
http://peopleslawoffice.com/news/articles/41/
||>
There's Emmet Otter's grandmother, seen here.
195: Sometimes I kinda like Posner.
He has flashes of good libertarian in amongst the propertarianism.
No love for Rizzo the Rat (if we're expanding to Muppets)? He'll make you breakfast by first skating around the skillet on butter skates. ADORABLE!
Related story from Ohio, where a woman was just recently convicted of a felony and sentenced to jail over school district residency.
Semi-relevant: I just watched Waiting for "Superman" months after everyone else did and am now catching up on the rebuttals and rebuttals to rebuttals.
I'm planning on doing that soon.
Are there any rebuttals or rebuttals^2 that you would particularly recommend? (On my re-read list are the NYRB article and this from Crooked Timber.)
Don't you think you can get everything you need from the rebuttals?
41
I wasn't warned personally, but my neighbor was, and the school is famosly bad (as are tons of other schools around here). ...
Aren't good liberals supposed to send their children to public schools even if they will have to associate with brown children?
I'm circling back to this thread to say I'm sorry -- I always think it's more fun on a guest post if the person sticks around for the comment thread, so I'll try to make sure I send in more to be posted in the evenings or weekends.
Anyway, I thought Megan's original comment was spot-on, in that slightly shamefaced way in which I find myself thinking, "Wow, this person is really insighful" and then realize "Maybe I mean 'This person saying exactly what I think' about guest bloggers who self-evidently don't know or trust the form.'" I did not take it as a shot at me, but would not have been the least bit stung if it had been.
I wouldn't have had much to contribute to the Muppets discussion anyway, so maybe it's for the best.
I love that you think liberals are all white, James. It's kind of sweet.
If liberals aren't white, why do they condescend paternalistically to all non-whites?
Because we condescend to everybody.
200: Related story from Ohio, where a woman was just recently convicted of a felony and sentenced to jail over school district residency.
Ha, I was just speed-reading through this thread to see if this one had come up (this related story is worth reading although I take issue with it somewhat). Very near to where I grew up*, I went to school in the system being fled from but different schools (and decades ago). The prosecutors were total jerks on several fronts. In particular:
There is a misdemeanor version of records tampering, but Walsh [prosecutor - JPS] said the more serious charge was warranted because the documents Williams-Bolar was accused of falsifying were government records: school-enrollment forms and applications for federally subsidized lunch.vs.
But jurors never heard that food-stamp recipients are instructed to skip the income section on the form because they automatically qualify for free lunch.
They didn't have to hear that information, said Walsh's spokesperson, Laurie Cramer, because Williams-Bolar wasn't charged with defrauding the school lunch program.
''The jury found her guilty of making false statements in the free lunch applications,'' Cramer said. ''The jury is not required to specify the exact falsifications, but the jury was directed to look at the documents in their entirety.*Although I first learned of it from bitchphd on Facebook.
Yeah, I haven't been able to brinf myself to read the story, but it's really upsetting to me that this is a transgression for which we are apparently willing to give this woman a FELONY record -- something that will haunt her the rest of her life, preclude her from a vast number of jobs (especially in healthcare, at airports, or with minors), hamper her ability to ever find housing again, hurt her ability to get credit, potentially jeopardize custody of her child, and probably disenfranchise her.
All for doing something that was wrong and bad, but a) caused no direct harm to anyone, and b) was intended to nurture and support her child.
I did not take it as a shot at me, but would not have been the least bit stung if it had been.
Oh, it absolutely wasn't, so much so that I was horrified to realize it could be taken that way given, you know, the title of this same post. No, I meant over on the other blogs, where they recruit their non-blogging friends to sub in for them, resulting in long rambling essays. This very post of yours is exactly what I'd expect from someone who knows blogging well. Concise intro with a point, then evidence, then a link to more if wanted. Perfect.
183: Halford, I can't believe you're depriving your daughter of Super WHY, the number-one show in our household! I even bought Mara character underwear yesterday, though Lee and I have to decide whether she's allowed to wear briefs intended for boys before I open them.
OP: We still have years to figure out school, but one of the reasons I'm not just assuming we'll go public is that I'm deeply skeptical of how our local elementary school treats non-white kids in very minor ways I think might build up over time. We never questioned sending a kid to the high school, but kindergarten worries me.
And I know casually know a family who are gaming the system to send a child to a good school where they own property but don't really reside. I've wanted to ask how they felt about the case mentioned above but haven't had the chance.
210: Contrast with Rick Santorum who's family lived from 2001-2004 in a tacky McMansion in the Virginia exurbs but whose "residence" was a small house in a working-class suburb of Pittsburgh. During that time his family received over $100K in tuition from the struggling school district for his kids being enrolled in cyber-school. At least the publicity from it did help cost him his Senate seat.
20
You're literally right, but practically wrong. The poor white kids in Philadelphia who are trying to go to better schools are up in the northeastern section of the city, crossing the line to Bucks County suburbs. The western edge of the city, which borders the Upper Darby and Lower Merion districts discussed in the article and is 15 minutes from the Radnor district, is predominately black. Scroll down to this map for a quick visual.*
This still doesn't show that the students trying to sneak into the nearby mostly white district are black. The article says they are hoping to "blend in" and sometimes claim to be living with relatives in the district which better fits white students.
To clarify what I said, the people we know are white people sending white kids to a white/Asian school district. All the white parents we know in that district are sending their kids to schools other than the local public school (except maybe the locally prominent European immigrant family, now that I think of it) and all the non-white parents of non-white kids we know in the district do use the public schools, for reasons that definitely include racial representation. We've considered moving to their town and that's one of the things we think about.
Oh, and Witt, the woman in that story was in fact studying to be a teacher, so the future employment implications of the felony ruling could be huge.
Here is a dot map of race and ethnicity of Philadelphia. West Philly and Upper Darby are tagged in the lower left of the map.
216
Oh, and Witt, the woman in that story was in fact studying to be a teacher, so the future employment implications of the felony ruling could be huge
Which perhaps she should have considered before deciding to commit a felony and then to reject the plea deals she was probably offered.
All for doing something that was wrong and bad, but a) caused no direct harm to anyone, and b) was intended to nurture and support her child.
I'm puzzled by the concession that this was "wrong and bad"--why? Do you really think that, for the family in question, the system of school selection & financing is either procedurally or substantively just enough that it is entitled to moral consideration, as opposed to being treated like, say, the colonial bureaucracy of an occupying force?
Which perhaps she should have considered before deciding to commit a felony and then to reject the plea deals she was probably offered.
Sometimes, Shearer, you really outdo yourself. Have you no shame, at long last?
Meant to post another comment yesterday to the OP: If things have not changed dramatically since I was in school, which I don't think they have from a legal perspective, it was generally white kids who were lying about their residency to get into better schools, as the desegregation aspect of "Open Enrollment" meant that children of color were preferred in most of the desirable schools in the district. Of course, that doesn't mean that there weren't children of any race lying about which district they lived in.
But the larger issue here, recently, has of course been the charter schools, which are so fucked up and corrupt as to beggar belief. Most of them are chartered through this rightwing Xtian group that requires them to use a "traditional" (read: crypto-fascist) social studies curriculum, many of the administrators have been caught embezzling, the lone Muslim-oriented school has been hounded by the ACLU and the fascists, and of course the fact that the charter schools can cherry-pick the best students from the regular public school system means that many of the public schools have truly become warehouses for the most at-risk students. Vouchers would have been hella preferable.
I'm puzzled by the concession that this was "wrong and bad"--why?
Responding generally since of course I know nothing about this case and haven't even read the article -- I said it was wrong and bad because in general, laws are society's expression of what we think is acceptable.
If you disagree with a law, it's your right -- and I would say in many cases your obligation -- to draw attention to it and advocate for to change. You can also make choices -- often within an unpleasant framework -- about how much you are willing to change your life to reduce the law's burden on you.
But deliberately breaking a law is the highest-stakes, often most dangerous (to you and your family) way to respond. It sends a horrible message to observers, including most importantly your children, and undercuts the social agreement that the law governs all citizens equally.
I have had a lot of experience dealing with people who felt that a law shouldn't apply to them. There are times when civil disobedience is the right course, but my general experience is that "laws for thee but not for me" is a more typical response.
I see x. trapnel showed up without putting on his Selection By Lot hat. I was actually wondering if a (wildly unlikely to actually be implemented) system of school selection by lot could work.
I suppose it would be a busing nightmare: kids in Neighborhood 1 can be attending, at random, School A, B, C, or D.
If you could iron out the logistics, it certainly seems fairer than the current system of pooling kids together based on the values of their homes.
I see x. trapnel showed up without putting on his Selection By Lot hat
At some point I do want to see (or find) the complete "selection by lot" argument. I've been mulling it over and I find myself skeptical.
I find myself leaning towards the argument made here by Yglesias:
One reason that amateur state legislatures tend to produce government by lobbyist is that the only feasible alternative available is deeply amateurish government.
That link ultimately leads to this book which I haven't read.
I think Trapnel's selection by lot argument is completely crazy, but love it anyway. He's certainly right that democracy sucks, but he's failed to consider the obvious solution: Put me in charge.
224: I'm not sure bacon is a workable solution for the situation in Libya. Although it would probably just piss off all sides equally, so no net loss there either. Well, except for the lost bacon.
I blame the ongoing middle east crises on hummus and pita bread. Plus, it's that region that invented horrible, horrible agriculture in the first place.
224: We tried it, but it worked out horribly. We erased your memories of the experiment as a courtesy.
Lawyer-Kings might be an improvement over predatory plutocracy.
At some point I do want to see (or find) the complete "selection by lot" argument. I've been mulling it over and I find myself skeptical.
I think my most-extended rant about it was here et. seq., along with the links.
I agree that amateurism-leading-to-lobbyist-capture is a serious problem, which is why the Trapnel Plan aims to combine non-elite staffing with institutional professionalism, through the use of: A- decently long terms, maybe 6-9 years, of which only the middle 3rd of which would come with authority (as opposed to a support-role); B- full-time salaries/responsibilities; C- complete independence from fundraising/electioneering, and a separation of local ombudsman roles from legislative, which would free up *massive* amounts of time.
Also, related (link chosen for the godawful party-like-it's-1995 web "design"):
[NickS] has insinuated that my thesis that p is false, on the basis of alleged counterexamples. But these so- called "counterexamples" depend on construing my thesis that p in a way that it was obviously not intended -- for I intended my thesis to have no counterexamples. Therefore p.
Actually, I rather like Fallows' guest bloggers. I don't mind if they ramble on a bit, because I'm interested in knowing them better, since they have a broad range of experience that otherwise wouldn't be represented in the blogs I read. I wouldn't get to see that if they stuck to the concise Kevin Drum style of blogging.
When worrying about lobbyist-capture-due-to-amateurism, you really need to separate out the causal mechanisms. It's hard to overstate how dominated current legislative schedules are by the "permanent campaign", both in a direct sense (fundraisers) or an indirect sense (constituent service). And of course, there's the simple fact that policy itself is largely about electoral posturing. It's like Keynes' beauty-pageant analogy. Not that there's anything wrong with cute kittens.
I agree that amateurism-leading-to-lobbyist-capture is a serious problem, which is why the Trapnel Plan aims to combine non-elite staffing with institutional professionalism, through the use of: A- decently long terms, maybe 6-9 years, of which only the middle 3rd of which would come with authority (as opposed to a support-role); B- full-time salaries/responsibilities; C- complete independence from fundraising/electioneering, and a separation of local ombudsman roles from legislative, which would free up *massive* amounts of time.
Okay, thanks, that does give me a better sense of what you are imagining.
I'm still at the level of, "have you met 'most people', how is this a good idea?" But it certainly deserves a more thought out response than that.
On a related note, I just watched Daniel Ellsberg: The Most Dangerous Man in America and it made me think that there was something to the cliche of "The Best and The Brightest."
There aren't that many people these days who go to Harvard, and then to the Marine Corp, then back to finish a PHD, and then to government service.
The moment where I really thought, "it was a different time, in many, many ways" was when it was describing events from1965. Ellsberg was starting to have doubts about the war he flew to Vietnam and, while there, insisted on, and got permission, to not only join a patrol but to take point (and he was on a patrol which ended up getting ambushed).
You're a better person than I am, YK. My patience for that is little-tiny.
I suppose that selection by lot would just lead to rule by a permanent mandarin-like class of technocrats, so maybe I'm cool with it.
In reality, I think we're about as likely to implement Trapnel's plan as we are to be ruled by a giant, super-smart praying mantis.
When worrying about lobbyist-capture-due-to-amateurism, you really need to separate out the causal mechanisms.
I thought the obvious causal mechanisms were (a) there's a lot of money at stake, (b) the issues are complicated -- meaning that it's difficult for an amateur to have the same focus on the details as a professional, combined with (c) the legislators need to get a job somewhere when they leave the legislature.
None of those would go away in your scheme.
praying mantis
Well that's just crazy. I mean, separation of church and state.
None of those would go away in your scheme.
Perhaps not entirely, but they'd certainly be dampened. What you're talking about is a mix of soft quid-pro-quo bribery and paying-for-personal-connections. The former would be ameliorated somewhat by the inquisitorial (vs. adversarial) political trials (staffed, again, by a large corps of randomly-picked but long-serving and institutionally-supported committees of 'grand jurors'). And the latter would have less point (= demand), because, A, personal connections would be nonexistent 3+ years post-service, and B, there'd be less scheduling pressure (due to electoral/constituency considerations), which is a lot of the value of knowing a personal connection to a politician.
Nothing is perfect, obviously. The main advantage of The Trapnel Plan is that it is harder to game, and better captures the core democratic commitment to equal political authority.
No, Athens, but I should probably read that story.
better captures the core democratic commitment to equal political authority.
I get that but, at the same time, one of the questions I would have is how well the system would preserve the appearance of democratic legitimacy.
I suppose once you had a 10-15 years with that system in place people would be as likely to accept it as legitimate (or not) as the current system.
But one of the arguable advantages of the current system is that elections provide a certain amount of valuable political theater -- there is something to the idea of candidates touring their districts telling people, "your vote matters." I'm not sure who would have an institutional incentive to do that in your system.
Though, thinking about it, I think the way to begin the transition would be to create a new seat on the Supreme Court for a person selected by lot. That person wouldn't be able to write decisions, but they would have a vote, and could ask questions during oral arguments. You'd then have to either expand the court to 11 overall or figure out some way of breaking 5-5 ties.
I still don't think it would be a good idea, but that would be an interesting test of the theory.
there'd be less scheduling pressure (due to electoral/constituency considerations)
I don't think this is at all causational. Legislators get plenty of money to hire people for constituent services. Work naturally expands to fit the time allotted; lobbyists get their face time thanks to monetary interests and class consciousness.
