I've said before that we loved living living in our tiny (5K) hippie town in upstate NY. I don't think size is nearly as important as the character of the town. If you are living in a microscopic version of Portland, things are pretty damn good. A lot of small college towns are very much like this.
That said, we are pretty outdoorsy, and for us the advantage wasn't being near a larger city, but near full blown wilderness.
The social situation can also become deathly if any problems arise because of the hothouse environment. I think healthy small towns develop local live and let live cultures. If you don't have that, you're fucked.
I thought Heebs had never lived in a blue state.
I attended a SLAC like that and I'm trying to think about what kept the happy professors (and spouses) happy, and so far heebie's list seems accurate. The good thing is that just about everyone else there will have gone through the same adjustment process and plenty should be sympathetic to the two of you.
I agree with Helpy-Chalk. My moving-from-big-to-small experience is pretty limited, so some of this may be either too obvious or too unique to my experience:
1. You need to accept that you will be in a "make-your-own-fun" kind of situation. There's no reason for that to be a bad thing, but if you expect fun to come to you in a small town, you will probably be disappointed.
2. There are freaks everywhere. Especially around college towns, but even in smaller towns w/o colleges, there's almost always some back-to-the-landers around, either from the 1970s, or today's "land project" types. And musicians and that kind of thing. Usually not that hard to spot, since they tend to stick out.
3. The big caveat is to watch out for other people's drama. Which is true everywhere, but it seems like it's easier for that kind of stuff to overtake your life in a smaller town than in a large one.
I thought Heebs had never lived in a blue state.
Haven't really. What did I say confusing?
5: You talked about moving to a red state. I get the impression that you grew up in a blue part of Florida, to an extent, so you noticed the transition to, e.g., Texas as a change in redness level.
The answer is really to find another 1-3 people that you get along with really well.
See Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? for pointers.
Oh, it was poorly written then. I just meant that there is a birthers billboard near here. I grew up in a college town in an otherwise very red part of Florida.
My wife is a librarian, so it should be possible for her to find work either at the school or in the area. The complicating factors are that a) she's coming out of a toxic work environment and having been the primary earner for our household into situation where I could cover both of our previous salaries (I haven't been earning that much), and b) we're trying to have a child in the next year. As a result she's ambivalent about looking for work right away. I'm fine with that in principle, but like heebie says, worry that this will cut out the main route for forming new community ties. (I've expressed this concern to her; she's at the processing "hmmm" stage right now.)
If anyone's interested, here's the playlist for the mix I posted.
1. The B-52's, "Roam"
2. Ultrababyfat, "Bored In Paris"
3. Dengue Fever, "Tiger Phone Card"
4. that dog, "Minneapolis"
5. Jolie Holland, "Mexico City"
6. Cat Power, "New York"
7. Bat For Lashes, "Tahiti"
8. Anjulie, "Columbia"
9. Amadou & Mariam, "Welcome To Mali"
10. Soul Coughing, "True Dreams Of Wichita"
11. Low, "California"
12. Brian Eno, "China My China"
13. Beulah, "Queen Of The Populists"
14. Townes Van Zandt, "Colorado Girl"
15. The Jayhawks, "Tampa To Tulsa"
16. Loretta Lynn & Jack White, "Portland Oregon"
17. Malajube, "Montréal -40°C"
18. The New Pornographers, "Go Places (Lite Mix)"
'm fine with that in principle, but like heebie says, worry that this will cut out the main route for forming new community ties.
This seems like a very serious concern to me, as does an interrupted work history given that you're an academic on a two-year contract and with nothing guaranteed to follow. Part-time, maybe, if she can find it, but not looking for work seems like a poor idea.
although a giant state university,
Over 30,000 students! I had no idea that place had gotten so big*! And long ago moved on from being one of the more geographically deceptively named colleges. I studied the 1960s era World Almanacs too closely as a kid and find it overly colors my default world even today.
*Similar to my response the the 2nd largest US campus by enrollment in the US is Central Florida (and largest for undergrad). Also freaking Liberty University has 43,000 ?!!?? Overtaking NYU as largest private US college.
And having a baby ups the isolation factor, because it's that much harder to get out of the house.
I moved to a university in a small mid-western town. No wilderness advantages, either, just cornfields.
We laughed and kind of cried about the line at Applebees on Friday night. But the university brought a mix of cool people. It was much easier to make friends because people were making their own fun not scheduled to the gills (this is also a factor of kids ages - we had really young kids when we moved there). We had a lot of friends around food because more good food was eaten in dining rooms there than restaurants. And we went to lots of the big cultural events at the uni.
So, look aggressively for like-minded folks and stir up your own fun.
If anyone's interested, here's the playlist for the mix I posted.
I tried to download it but failed for some reason. I'll try again later, and will try to think of some songs to fit the theme -- it's an interesting one.
Off the top of my head
He Went To Paris
Paddy's Lament (did you want happy songs? I suppose it's a little to easy to think of folk songs about traveling anyway.)
Anyway, I'll think about it.
My advice on the baby isolation is sign up for a nice hippy birthing class and then cling to each other after birth. We made lots of first time parent friends out of that.
Close your eyes and think of England pretend the footnote to 12 was written by an English-speaker.
The probably unhealthy attitude that got me through grad school was that the best way to deal with being in a small, isolated town was to spend as much time as possible far away from that small town. Aside from the sort of inherent denialism in this approach, I would guess it doesn't work so well for the married-and-having-a-kid type.
I'm a gardener, so my response to living in a small town would probably be to garden even more. This may not work for everyone.
An almost on-topic song for your mix is this Old 97s' rewrite of a couple of verses of "Desolation Row" as "Champaign, Illinois".
You will not go to heaven,
You'll go to Champaign, Illinois
One could probably make a decent going-places mix using only Mountain Goats songs. Here on this computer alone I have:
01. Mountain Goats - Beautiful Rat Sunset - Going To Maryland
02. Mountain Goats - Hot Garden Stomp - Going To Japan
03. Mountain Goats - Hot Garden Stomp - Going To Norwalk
04. Mountain Goats - Nine Black Poppies - Going to Utrecht
05. Mountain Goats - Nothing for Juice - Alpha Double Negative: Going to Catalina
06. Mountain Goats - Nothing for Juice - Going to Bogotá
07. Mountain Goats - Nothing for Juice - Going to Kansas
08. Mountain Goats - Nothing for Juice - Going to Reykjavik
09. Mountain Goats - Nothing for Juice - Going to Scotland
10. Mountain Goats - Protein Source For The Future...Now! - Going To Tennessee
11. Mountain Goats - Protein Source For The Future...Now! - Going To Malibu
12. Mountain Goats - Songs for Petronius - Alpha Double Negative- Going To Catalina
13. Mountain Goats - Sweden - Going to Queens
14. Mountain Goats - Sweden - Going to Bolivia
15. Mountain Goats - Zopilote Machine - Going to Bristol
16. Mountain Goats - Zopilote Machine - Going to Lebanon
17. Mountain Goats - Zopilote Machine - Going to Georgia
Most small towns aren't used to hardball politics. Persuade one local or nearby community group or union that their interests lie in backing your wife for mayor with boots on the ground and direct mail. The incumbent will never know what hit him, and then your wife will be loved and feared in equal measure and have no problem making friends or instituting the kinds of community events you'd like to see.
I've been on another round of applications to schools in increasingly isolated places and have been wondering much the same. Without even a spouse to keep me company while I adjust from New York to The Middle of Nowhere, what would I do? I've mostly thought about getting dogs and taking up boxing.
15: Huh, I just tried it from another computer and it worked fine for me.
I think she'll come around on the working thing and that working part-time will be the correct compromise. It's mostly the priciple of "I supported you, now you get to support me." Much more than income or employment record, social isolation is my concern there.
There doesn't seem to be a birthing center in town (we thought at first there might be and got all excited, but it looks like those are actually in a town of the same name in another state), but there are Certifided Nurse Midwives in the town 15 mins away and birthing centers within an hour's drive. So that's reassuring.
As to politics, it's a solidly blue state, and the district voted for Obama in 2008. I didn't get out to see the town outside of the college while I was there, (though the students I talked to reported that the town was very friendly to and supportive of the college), but I get the impression that the campus is more purple than I'm used to. So that will be interesting.
I know I shouldn't say this, but I look forward to having a conversation with students about human rights that doesn't involve all of them just nodding like crazy. Also, it would be nice to one day not be the only Protestant in the room. I was teaching Eq/uiano this week and had to explain e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g. Grace, salvation, sin, faith, election, testimony, witness, evangelism--I felt like I was teaching Sunday School, and I have to do it a LOT.
Much more than income or employment record,
I hate to sound like a one-note scaremonger, but income and employment record are serious issues, especially if you're planning to have kids soon. There's nothing wrong with not working for pay if you can afford it, but a one-income couple where the one income is a not-yet tenure-track academic would be way, way outside my comfort zone on that front.
Also, it would be nice to one day not be the only Protestant in the room.
Aim for the stars, AWB.
25: Yeah, this, and the fact that many of the students are first generation college students, is part of the appeal of the college, though it will also provide its own challenges.
Megan, we will garden our brains out, especially since we won't have the MPLS Farmers market to rely on.
Also, it would be nice to one day not be the only Protestant in the room. I was teaching Eq/uiano this week and had to explain e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g. Grace, salvation, sin, faith, election, testimony, witness, evangelism-
That's not just wanting another Protestant in the room, that's wanting another Protestant who either is or was in the past unusually devout. I wouldn't expect most churchgoers to be able to give a coherent account of any of that.
26: I think we're used to living on less, and this may be skewing our perception, espicially not having a frame for how much additional cost an infant would add.
I think there are occasionally a couple in the room but they're ashamed to speak up because they don't know anything at all about Protestantism other than "Jesus Loves Me." It sort of makes me mad because the only reason that being a Protestant doesn't suck is that you spend your entire childhood memorizing scripture and learning Hebrew and Greek roots, and that shit is useful.
we will garden our brains out
Yeah! Food for the zombies!
Aside from some start-up items, much of which you can get used and cheap, infants don't actually cost that much. Daycare costs a lot, but then presumably you've got two incomes coming in.
30: Infants are cheap -- the worry about income isn't getting by next year, which you can figure out perfectly well whether or not that's practical, and it sounds like it is. The worry is three years from now where the next job you find is a lower-paid postdoc in a higher cost area, it's been three years since your wife worked, you have two kids, and she now can't find a job that would pay for the childcare costs, making it much harder for her to get back into earning income despite the fact that you need it. That's a pessimistic scenario, but it's not crazy unlikely, and not being in the workforce really closes down your options.
31: I thought the best thing about being being a Protestant was knowing that Jesus loves you. That stuff about memorizing scripture and learning Hebrew and Greek roots doesn't appear to me be widely practiced among contemporary American Protestants.
35: I think the fall of intellectual Protestantism is still fairly recent in some circles, so I do feel a bit "get off my lawn" about it. This weekend I was hanging out with a guy in my field, about my age, who grew up Baptist in the way I did, and it was like having a secret language or something. So great. I miss my people sometimes. But yeah, they're not really there anymore. Even my own church was taken over by some idiot (of the Jesus-hates-you rather than the Jesus-loves-you school).
I had a similar secret-language moment at another conference with an 85-year-old British Baptist.
and not being in the workforce really closes down your options
You really think that this is true? I mean it might be in her particular case, since she hasn't gotten an MLS requiring job (she's currently a LAIII) and wouldn't want her degree to get cold. Generally, though, isn't it understood (in non-layering places) that you could have a gap in employment related to the brith of a child or this awful market without it disqualifying you from any and all jobs in your field?
37: It's obviously not categorically true -- people do take time off and get back into the workforce. But it's a problem.
And a facet of the problem is that one of the ways you get back into the workforce is to restart at the entry level (or at least lower on the totem pole than you were) and work up again. This can be very difficult in terms of cash flow if you're trying to cover childcare out of an initially insufficient salary.
re: 29
Really? I'm an atheist, raised by atheists, and the part of my family that's religious is Catholic, but most of those concepts are concepts I'm reasonably familiar with. That may be a product of being Scottish,* so Calvinism is sort of in the water, I suppose.
* and also just being pain-in-the-arse who has to know fucking everything and finds everything interesting ...
39: You might be a rare bird in that way, ttaM. I feel like I know a lot of super-smart folks whose academic work would benefit from a few hours learning something about Christianity, but they're just not curious about it. My roommate is super-smart and works in my field, but whenever she comes across any Christiany material, she asks me for a translation. Neither of my roommates hate Christians, but they both claim that it's just 100% impossible to understand.
The worst was when Roommate got a recommendation letter to read from a student at a Southern Baptist high school. She forwarded it to me for translation, saying it might as well have been written in Chinese for all she knew.
I'm not sure how small a place you're talking about, but I think it's important to realize that small cities and towns have gotten way way nicer over the last 20 years. There's just no comparison between say Lancaster (population 45K) now and 20 years ago. Now the place you're going is probably a lot smaller than that, but I wouldn't be too pessimistic, the town may be better than you expect.
39: but you (and I) had compulsory RS at school, and they don't do that in the US.
I'm sure the town is nice, and the internet make the whole prospect instantly more livable, I'm mostly concerned about the problems I can't yet see in adjusting to community that sized.
On of the faculty members I met with while interviewing told a story about when she first moved to town. Someone cut her off in traffic and she reflexively moved to flip them off. The other person in the car pulled her hand down and reminded her that a) everyone either knew her or would know her in town and, b) the person in the other car could be anyone, including, say, the college president's wife.
Have to run, but please keep thoughts and advice coming.
re: 40
I suppose. I'm moderately interested in religion -- enough to have read books on church history, doctrine, etc -- but only in the same way that I'm interested in any number of other things from the history of ideas. It's casual reading for pleasure, not formal study. I think there may be a cultural difference, too. The UK doesn't have the divide between church and state. We had prayer in school, religious education lessons, both my primary and high school had a local Minister who led school services, and so on.
Also, wtf re: the room-mates? How could you be someone who seriously studies/writes on literature in English without knowing the basics of Christian doctrine, a bit of religious history, and the religious context in which any authors you might be reading would be placed? Surely some basic grounding in religion (and classics) is a pre-requisite? I don't mean that it's something that'd necessarily be taught to English/literature students, but when it comes to people working at grad level or above, you'd think learning this stuff would just be part of what it means to be a well-rounded scholar working in a humanities subject?
re: 43
Yeah, definitely. I have to admit, I've never had an ounce of religious impulse myself, but I think religious education in schools is really valuable.
Someone cut her off in traffic and she reflexively moved to flip them off.
That's just weird in itself.
re: 48
Really? [This is today's theme]
I'm not particularly road-ragey but I probably do it reasonably often. Admittedly I commute 2 - 3 hours a day on a route heavily invested with Audi-driving arsewipes, but still, it's a fairly understandable reflex, no?
45: It's really not expected. One roommate is a Phil professor from a war-ravaged Catholic country whose knowledge of Christianity is basically that Jesus seems a lot like Socrates, and the rest of the history of religion is just about crazy people saying crazy stuff. The other is from a war-ravaged Orthodox country and her eyes just cross whenever it comes up.
I don't know if part of it is that both of them grew up in places where ideologically inflexible assholes ruin everything, because I see it in academic life in general. My own profs, when I was young, did not know one thing about the Bible and couldn't recognize scripture quoted out of context. This weekend, Baptist Guy and I were shooting the shit among some other grad students and they got pretty freaked out when he and I started joking about Elisha's shitty miracles and all the gay sex Jesus has in the apocrypha.
47: Sometimes I really don't believe you are a New Yorker. I see you here, I know you're here, etc., but one does flip people off, no?
A friend of mine had a boyfriend from here who moved to teach at a writing program in the Midwest and learned the hard way that people there do not regularly call each other "cunt" or "bitch" at the grocery store. (I avoid using the c-word at strangers, and tend to avoid gendered curses in that setting, but "asshole" is pretty useful.)
48: Eh, I shouldn't comment about what's weird for heavy drivers, given that in an average week, I don't drive at all.
inflexible assholes
Kinda defeats the purpose.
That's just weird in itself.
I call people terrible names when I'm behind the wheel of a car, but I've gotten better about making sure my kids aren't in the back seat first.
learned the hard way that people there do not regularly call each other "cunt" or "bitch" at the grocery store.
Brooklyn's tough, man. I can't think of when I've heard one person call another a bitch in the grocery store. "Cunt" I'm certain I've never heard under those circumstances.
52.2: but I've gotten better about making sure my kids aren't in the back seat first.
"I know we're not home yet, get out of the fucking car!!"
I guess my reaction to flipping someone off for cutting you off is an NY driver reaction. Unless 'cutting you off' means "I had to slam on the brakes throwing myself forward against the steering wheel", you get cut off literally every three minutes here. You couldn't get mad about it all the time.
If you're driving someplace where there's more space and the lane-changing/cutting off isn't so constant, getting exercised about it isn't strange.
a) everyone either knew her or would know her in town
This I can speak to. Sacramento should be a big city, but the hipster center that I live in is a small town. I enjoy it, but have changed my behavior because of it.
1. I tip better. I mean, I would normally tip well anyway, but I tip even better on coffees and stuff because I will absolutely meet that person again at the gym or a party.
2. Presumably not a problem for you, but everyone will know who you are dating. If you break up, you will have to split up cafe´s. If you cheat and leave the house to do so, someone will see. If you cheat and park your bike in front of the third's house, someone will see.
3. Absolutely nothing negative can go on Facebook. The new president of our biking advocacy group made a comment about a poorly run meeting on her Facebook page, and was instantly told to take it down. People who ran that meeting are guaranteed to be one friend away from the president.
Sacramento is still a city, so there is city-people tolerance for running to the store in pajamas. But it will be seen and remembered. You have to act like everything you do will come back around to you.
re: 49
I definitely remember religious references being teased out, including paraphrases or references to scripture when I studied English literature at Glasgow. Shit, I remember it coming up in high school discussion of books. Not in a particularly central way, it was one set of things among many that might come up in discussing a book, but it came up regularly enough.
I suppose I know a fair number of academics of whom 49.2 would be true, as well. People who know their own narrow sub-area very well but aren't especially intellectually curious in the broader sense, or have very odd/large lacunae.
53: It's common grocery parlance. "Cunt in aisle 7," etc.
51: heavy drivers,
For some reason I read that like "heavy smokers" and it is actually quite appropriate. "Heavy driving takes an average of 6 years off your life concludes a new AAA study."
Similarly, I think there are a lot of liberal U.S. academics who know very little about American Revolutionary history for the similar reason that Stuff Like That is something only crazy right-wingers could possibly care about. It's bad for our ability to negotiate in this country that liberals have fairly uninformed ideas about what Jesus and Jefferson "really" meant.
Learn to enjoy some form of gardening, smoke a lot of weed, and if you're lucky enough to buy/rent the right home, learn to revel in the joy that you can walk outside and take a piss in your backyard without any of the neighbors seeing you. Works especially well while you are engaged in 1 after having done 2.
46: especially if it's being taught by an Ulster Protestant rugby player, as mine was. Worth it alone for his pronunciation of "Guru Granth Sahib".
This weekend, Baptist Guy and I were shooting the shit among some other grad students and they got pretty freaked out when he and I started joking about Elisha's shitty miracles and all the gay sex Jesus has in the apocrypha.
I wouldn't expect Baptist Guy to know about the apocrypha.
Similarly, I think there are a lot of liberal U.S. academics who know very little about American Revolutionary history for the similar reason that Stuff Like That is something only crazy right-wingers could possibly care about.
More true of Civil War history?
60 It's bad for our ability to negotiate in this country that liberals have fairly uninformed ideas about what Jesus and Jefferson "really" meant.
To negotiate what? What does this mean?
63.1: Like me, Baptist-turned-amateur-Bible-scholar.
63.2: Probably yes, though that's more of a Northern-Southern split than a left-right split, I'd think.
I have to say I'm a little startled at the number of people for whom a small town would be a major lifestyle change.
I live in a modestly sized town (~70K), and I love it. I think I've said before, I like the feeling that, as soon as I step out of the door at work, I'm someplace pleasant. When I walk to the grocery story there aren't tons of people or cars and it's nice. I don't have to go somewhere else to be in a nice spot.
Of course I don't care about nightlife, so there's that.
But, really, it's hardly a "desolate pit of isolation."
Now, the place I live is may not be your typical moderate sized town, but I do find the, "everything will be different" comments a little surprising.
Of course, if I were moving to NYC, I would feel like I was preparing for a major change in my lived experience.
re: 62
Heh, our primary school Minister was a big heavy-set Ulsterman, as well. At the time he seemed like a fire and brimstone borderline Wee Free heid banger, and I notice he crops up here:
defending the Westminster Confession.
64: Right-wingers often use Founding-Father dogwhistles as rhetorical commonplaces as if they have the only understanding of the Constitution or the Declaration or whatever, and there need to be more liberals who are willing to challenge the right-wing monopoly on 18c American history.
...but when it comes to people working at grad level or above, you'd think learning this stuff would just be part of what it means to be a well-rounded
--And you lost us.
willing to challenge the right-wing monopoly on 18c American history
This is not a thing I'm familiar with.
68: But the rhetoric works, for right-wingers, independent of how much understanding is behind it. Someone who believes in racist warmongering Jesus isn't going to have their point of view changed by having peacenik Bible passages read to them, are they? That isn't the Jesus they believe in.
I think I would love living in a small college town; all you really need are 5-6 interesting friends around, and a college seems relatively certain to provide that. I sometimes fantasize about becoming a country lawyer in far northern California or something, but I don't really know what that would entail.
We're supposed to contributing mixes on theme, right?
Small Town Disaster Opera: A Cautionary Tale
It all starts when our hero -- let's call him Pimmy Jongo -- takes a new job in a distant place. "I know a place," he says to Mrs. Jongo. "I'll Take You There" (Staples Singers).
She's skeptical. "It looks to be A Thousand Miles From Nowhere" (Dwight Yoakam). But what can she do? Moving (Sarah Dougher) day is upon the Jongos. They're headed for Some New Town (Slobberbone) out in the Heart Of The Country (Paul & Linda McCartney).
The welcoming committee is hilariously weird. They're called The Village Green Preservation Society (The Kinks) and they immediately enlist Mrs. Jongo in a series of petition campaigns to save the dusty old zocalo. Pimmy can't stop making fun of them. "Wow, I thought it was going to be a change, but really -- Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere (Matthew Sweet & Susanna Hoffs covering Neil Young)." Mrs. Jongo comes to resent the teasing -- after all, there is that one dapper gentleman with the soft eyes who keeps going on about strawberry jam -- and before long she's fantasizing about a Small Town Romance (Richard Thompson). Even though she hasn't transgressed, she finds herself giddy, blushing, unable to look Pimmy in the eye when she talks about the VGPS "Save Donald Duck" campaigns. Is this what it's like to Go Wild In The Country (Bow Wow Wow)?
One teary night, she breaks down and confesses everything to Pimmy. The lingering glances. The seductively moist handshakes. The river oysters she brought to pot luck. "This is a Bad Town (The Evangenitals)," snarls Pimmy. "It's a Devil Town (Noah and the Whale covering Daniel Johnston)! We must leave at once -- I never want to hurt you."
"No," says Pimmy. "I love you and trust you. It doesn't matter where we live -- You're My Only Home (Woodpigeon covering Magnetic Fields)." Fade out on the doppler as the midnight train -- which doesn't stop here -- heads into a tunnel.
70K people sounds more like a small city. That's the size of Scranton. Bigger than Harrisburg or Lancaster, PA. I assumed the question was more likely about a place like Yellow Springs, Ohio.
60, 68, 71: Do liberals really need to be encouraged to sink deeper in the ditch of their well-established "Well, that's not really..." guidance counselor tendencies? Isn't "liberals are pencil-necked geeks who can't wait to drone on and on, just like your least favorite teachers" already kind of a prominent conservative position?
I think the liberal "let's quote hippie Jesus" thing is not enough when they really don't know the religious history.
Yellow Springs, Ohio.
That would be different.
My mom grew up there, and I've visited a couple of times and it's lovely but very small.
73 is fantastic.
70K people sounds more like a small city.
Fuck, that's a totally different mix.
44: I'm mostly concerned about the problems I can't yet see in adjusting to community that sized.
Natilo gives good advice in 4. Without knowing how small the town is, and whether it may be an outlier in terms of cultural awareness -- some college towns are -- it's possible that everything will shut down by 6 p.m. except for the Applebees and one or two restaurant/lounges, and the movie theater and the bowling alley, if there are those. So "make your own fun" is truly important. Maybe the college itself has evening events; on the other hand, if you've just spent the day there and your wife has spent the day at home, the two of you may be at odds about whether you're inclined to head back there in the evening.
There just won't be a lot to do (probably, unless it's an unusually robust small town), or many places to go for shopping and so on. It winds up being pretty important to identify the places harboring like-minded people -- is there a health food store? an independent bookstore? -- and trying to build social ties through them.
It might be difficult to procure certain types of foods, depending on how you prefer to eat. The internet is your friend on that.
Otherwise, as Rob said upthread, depending on how live-and-let-live the place is, be careful of the fishbowl effect. Smaller places gossip uncontrollably.
74.last: Speaking of which, you might be able to begin masturbating to Antioch College again this fall. My daughter was semi-close to being a member of the last prior admitted class (who had to go somewhere else after their freshman year). Yellow Springs is now basically a quaint exurb of Dayton.
Who are these conservatives with a monopoly on either church history or 18th century history? B/c no one I know with an interest in either is even remotely conservative. I guess the history channel trends a bit right wing, but most conservatives are basically morons are not interested in learning a damn thing about the eitghteenth century or church history (as opposed to biblical verse memorization).
Out of all the possible "small college towns in the Midwest within an hour of a moderately sized city and three hours of a major city" I could have chosen in response to NickS's mistaken notions, I picked the one where NickS's mother grew up?!?!?!?!?
81: You could have just ended the sentence after "a damn thing".
81: They're wrong about it, but I don't know many non-specialists on the other side who have the necessary expertise for saying anything to the contrary other than "nuh uh."
Antioch College no longer exists? I guess Jimmy Pongo's going to Greencastle, Indiana instead.
It does seem to me that no humanities scholar should be allowed to study anything before, say, 1965 in the West without a basic 101-level understanding of some basic concepts of Christianity; it's just too pervasive in the culture.
Um, Antioch exists. They're even hiring right now.
82: And Harrisburg is pretty bogus comparison as it is the relatively urban main center of a >500,000 person metropolitan center. NickS's 70,000 population place might be the same, but I suspect not.
Did Antioch shut down and reopen? I remember something with them.
Further to 73: two songs are from previous Unfogged mixes; one song was joined by me and my accordion in front of a live cowboy bar audience that included one Robert Halford.
87, 89: Yes, I believe it was shuttered at the end of the 2007-8 academic year. Lots of nasty internal politics with its parent organization Antioch University which mostly operated some continuing education campuses. They are attempting to restart it which I suspect is why they are hiring, but from my experience it will be a long haul. The physical plant was a wreck, for instance. Nicest features are the town (in a desperate fight to ward of exurbification), the legacy and a fabulous environmental/natural area right next to campus.
Jeez, I didn't know all this. I... have some mumble mumble to do.
Antioch's new president is Mark Roosevelt? THE Mark Roosevelt? The guy Pittsburgh hired to decide which public schools to shut down? The great-grandon of the president? The guy who was the Democratic nominee for governor in Massachusetts and got a quarter of the vote? Of all people.
I sometimes fantasize about becoming a country lawyer in far northern California or something, but I don't really know what that would entail
Familiarity with the Controlled Substances Act and recent ballot initiatives, presumably.
Let me add to the chorus about the fishbowl effect--- everyone will know everyone. The other thing I found absolutely essential (having moved from a city to a college town of about 40,000) is just to go to a city for a week or so every year--- otherwise I start to go stir crazy. So long as I get my fix of city living occasionally, I'm perfectly happy the rest of the time, and enjoy walking everywhere and running into people and having lots of good hiking nearby.
86: On the face of it, I can't acquit myself respectably on the topics AWB listed in 25 as Grace, salvation, sin, faith, election, testimony, witness, evangelism, yet I had the gall to go to graduate school in the humanities. Hm.
I suspect 49.2 describes me: I do not know much to speak of about the bible. I can say a lot more about Plato.
Checking in, but have to run again.
k-sky:73 is lovely and brilliant.
I am not going to Greencastle, Indiana, but where I am going is a lot like Greencastle, Indiana, including the population of the town.
And where is () to comment on the character of 18th century scholars. Cause I don't know a damn thing about it.
It's pretty easy to get into a Heinlein's List sort of situation with this stuff, and end up in a very silly place. But I'd certainly have put some loose familiarity with the doctrines of the major religions, and Christianity in particular, on any plausible list of 'shit one would probably benefit from knowing.'
I'm realizing that what I described as a "small, isolated town" is actually, compared to some of the college towns that have been mentioned or that I know people who have moved to, more of a small, isolated city. And also that there's probably a substantial difference between "college town" and "university town".
I'd love to do a mix, but I'm on my way to work. Maybe when I get back in.
In the meantime, and sorry Jimmy if this is a personal question but it is relevant: are either you or your wife nonwhite? And do you have children or plan to do so while living in this town?
99: Loose familiarity is fine. Being able to quote scripture and back it up with informed interpretation, or to engage in intellectually serious discussion about biblical motifs (textually supported), is, I think, a bit much. I'd buy that it's more important in literary fields, if people want to argue that, but I'd really need to see a case made for it with respect to philosophy.
But I'm out of the field now, so I don't have a huge stake in the argument.
101: Jimmy explained in comment 9 that they'd like to have a child in the next year.
Being able to quote scripture and back it up with informed interpretation, or to engage in intellectually serious discussion about biblical motifs (textually supported), is, I think, a bit much.
Sure, I'd agree [with caveats about literary scholars and historians of the relevant periods, obviously]. But some of the concepts AWB was mentioning above are basically core things in Protestant doctrine, so aren't really advanced topics. Not that one would necessarily need to have any other than a broad strokes over-view, but I think it ought to be at least a plausible part of a humanities scholar's 'toolkit'.
Yeah, I guess it just seems odd to me that students who are fully willing and able to tease out the finer points of all kinds of interdisciplinary ideas raised by literature get glazed over whenever I ask a specific question about how someone is writing about their specific understanding of Christianity (of any kind). I get a lot of "Uh, he's like really Christian, I guess?"
102: Ah, I see that. So part one of my question is a little more relevant, then.
85: Hey, now! There are worse things in the world than having your nearest mall be in Terre Haute, which is also home to an excellent aquatic pet store.
I wasn't really thinking of this before because the request for advice was about something else, but...
Isn't it widely acknowledged that the academic job search is a horrible, life-sucking lottery? Prudent people with dependents and options think of a currently-unsecured academic job as an elusive miracle, not something their fiscal well-being rests on. How long would you and your wife want to get by on one post-doc salary if you don't happen to get a good academic job, which is the likely outcome?
One partner can pay the lottery but surely the other should have a nice safe government job.
...which is the likely outcome (through no fault of your own)? ...
Government jobs allow you to move from location to location freely?
And where is () to comment on the character of 18th century scholars. Cause I don't know a damn thing about it.
I don't entirely disagree with AWB there, but I know a number of people who do religious history and I can acquit myself reasonably when it comes to such topics. I am better, though, I must admit with the 15-17th centuries, but that has to do with the coursework I've done. And as for the Bible itself, I've read it a number of times but that's more to do with youthful folly of being friends with fundamentalists and feeling the need to at least mildly understand where they were coming from.
Sacramento is still a city, so there is city-people tolerance for running to the store in pajamas. But it will be seen and remembered. You have to act like everything you do will come back around to you.
Megan and I live in very different versions of the same city.
I do think it's pretty typical of a certain sort of liberal academic to be happily unfamiliar with Christianity, no?
It could be that I'm in NYC, home of the blissfully-ignorant-of-religion. But I have found that at least NYC academics are less hostile to talking about the Bible than my profs in Ohio.
I recently went to a workshop where work in progress was presented by a fellow writing his dissertation on the concept of grace and Donne's holy sonnets (or something like that).
That guy knew a lot about religion. And classical rhetoric!
I didn't think you live in Sac, do you? I thought you lived across the causeway.
I think the small-town effect drops off outside Midtown.
Government jobs allow you to move from location to location freely?
Once you're in with the feds, you have priority, I think. That's true for the state, especially when the hiring freeze is on. But no, not necessarily. Still if you are picking your problems, I suggest that 'non-academic spouse has to leave job to find a new one in new location' is a better problem to have than 'post-doc ends and neither spouse has established job.'
Government jobs allow you to move from location to location freely?
Definitely not where I interned - long waiting lists for the more desirable cities.
I would think that, outside of certain specialties, a government job would make moving much more difficult than a job in private industry would. And, of course, if you have to leave your job to move then any security that you might have had is pretty meaningless.
118: I do now, and not in Midtown, so yeah, I'm sure you're right about the small town effect dropping off. I also have a pretty closed social circle.
117: if you're serious I can ask him about it.
120: Well, there's security of anything you've saved with two spouses working, the security of being able to look for a job in the new location while employed. Not total security, but not nothing.
I don't quite understand what position you're arguing for, Megan. That financial stability demands that JP's wife get a more secure job? It seems like that would depend on whether they want to live in this town long-term after JP's postdoc ends; if not, then I don't see how any job she would get locally would imply more long-term security. Except to the extent that the experience would make it easier for her to get other jobs in the future.
Well, if you cross into Midtown, I'm sure someone will alert me.
124: The details depend on what exactly the JP's plan to do, but the global point that planning on being a one income family when that one income is a non-tenure track academic job is risky seems like a solid one.
123: that seems like it would be the case with any job. The secondary benefits of government jobs (pension, job security) only seem useful if you're likely to stay in the same place for a long time, which is manifestly not the case with early-career academics (on one year postdocs). And, of course, it's not like government jobs are plentiful everywhere (or most places), and certainly not in small midwestern towns.
I'm actually sort-of excited that Bible ignorance is spreading. My time living in a red state made me hate the whole subject. And I've found that being moderately informed about the subject doesn't do you any good. If you know the Bible less well than a right-winger, then they'll patronizingly explain your error. if you know the Bible better, then they'll just patronizingly explain that the devil can quote scripture too. I grew up in a liberal Christian church, so I thought of modern Protestantism as a basically benign force. Now I understand better the people who grew up in Red Statia and regard Christianity as pure evil.
Ignorance about the American Revolution is just sad though. Not for winning arguments, but because as an American it's part of my history, and the right-wingers can't have it. I am part of the tradition of Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln, while right-wingers are twisted emotionally-stunted souls who shit on America and everything that makes it great. Republicans fit better in falangist Spain, rather than partake of anything authentically American.
122: I am! I really would love to read it.
I guess my position would be that if one partner is playing the job-lottery, the other one should have a notoriously secure job. If they want to satisfy my risk preferences, at least.
131: that's a reasonable position, but very difficult to arrange given the geographic uncertainty of said job lottery.
It's not all or nothing, though. Stated as, 'should prioritize employment security however practical given the individual circumstances', and assuming that we're satisfying my risk preferences as well, I think it works.
Well, I have no objections to other in-demand careers, like nursing. Those might be portable. But I'm personally only in a position to recommend cushy gov't jobs.
My own profs, when I was young, did not know one thing about the Bible and couldn't recognize scripture quoted out of context.
I know this has been addressed above, but this is so far from my experience that I feel like I must be missing something. Do you mean all your profs? Your profs in science classes? Because surely you don't mean your literature profs.
they got pretty freaked out when he and I started joking about Elisha's shitty miracles and all the gay sex Jesus has in the apocrypha
Grad students in the humanities are freaked out by gay sex? Even gay sex had by Jesus doesn't seem to me like it would get much freak-out mileage.
Maybe they were rather freaked out by AWB and Friend's display of obscure Jesus knowledge.
135.1: Yes, lit profs.
136 is true. Not freaked in a bad way, just surprised.
I'm actually sort-of excited that Bible ignorance is spreading.
I'm not sure that there's any type of ignorance I'd be in favor of, or that despicable wisdom exists. Advanced rape technique?
Sadly we are the people we already are, so nursing and government jobs seem to be ruled out at the moment. We may never satisfy Megan's risk preferences. In order to actually follow our dreams, such as they are, we have to actively shun our familial training to find something joyless but secure and stick to it, and instead embrace the possibility that something might go wrong and we'd have to start over, but them's the breaks. Fortunately, it's a two-year fellowship, so there's some flexibility there.
are either you or your wife nonwhite?
No, we're both white folks. The town itself is overwhelmingly white, the college slightly less so (around 8% students of color; mid-high for a SLAC, I think). We are already anticipating the diversity withdrawal, but will find ways to deal with that through travel and cultivating new friends. I teach African history, so I will have to walk students past the "You just read that in some book" dismissal, which it became clear was afoot in the student populace when I had lunch with some of the history majors.
the "You just read that in some book" dismissal
I'm going to start saying this, possibly often.
We may never satisfy Megan's risk preferences.
Other people's autonomy is my constant burden. Sometimes, people make choices that are different from the ones I would make, even after I have told them what I would do.
Yep, though certainly not just them. You'd think the irony would drift towards them through the mist, but mostly no. There's a great cry among undergrads (and there was when I was one as well) for authenticity of voice, and certain an African or African-American prof teaching the same history could bring different relationships to the subject to the table. The profs of either heritage that I know, however, spend just as much time trying to convince students that it's a discipline and some hard work, rather than an intuitive consciousness.
The you just read that in some book dismissal must be met with the I have a scholar to back me up defense:
http://www.cartoonbank.com/2006/youre-just-mad-because-i-found-a-scholar-to-back-me-up/invt/129953/
I have never known any corroboration, either positive or negative, between religiosity and knowledge of scripture. I've already mentioned on this blog the adamantly Christian student I had last semester who listed her two favorite Bible quotes as "give a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime" and "don't put a stick in someone's eye when you have a plank in your own."
Corroboration s/b correlation. I should look at the words spell check offers before I click accept.
the college slightly less so (around 8% students of color; mid-high for a SLAC, I think).
I will mention here that my own institution is in the top ten most diverse SLACs in the US. The biggest population is white, but we qualify as a minority-serving institution.
Maybe JP could contact Kotsko who just finished two years in Kalamazoo. But Kalamazoo is a bigger city. And I am probably wrong, but I somehow think Kotsko spent some time at DePauw. Or maybe it was Valparaiso.
don't put a stick in someone's eye
Unless it's one of those eye-for-an-eye situations. Then, by God, it's pokin' time.
Kankakee.
He'll be gone five hundred miles when the day is done.
It's like Jesus said: "Ask not what your Caesar can do unto you, ask what you can do unto Caesar as you would have done to you. And do unto God his due, et cum spiritu tuo."
He'll be gone five hundred miles when the day is done.
When will he reach Phoenix?
this has to be the biggest difference post-internet, right?
You can live somewhere other than new york or chicago and still be ok
145: I love Unfogged. This is so funny!
Is not this thread, and Unfogged in general, not proof that we create our own cities? Are there two places less alike than LB's New York and AWB's New York? And, I'm sure even if I lived next door to Megan I would not be living in anyplace like her Sacramento.
||
This seems like something that would be liked here.
|>
159: She'd be blasting her music and parading around naked in front of the living room windows, not to mention throwing burning couches off the roof, so probably you would be.
I was just going to say, well, for starters you could hear my music, so that would be quite like my Sacramento.
My neighbor is renting out her house this month, so if any of you are up for it, email me. Bring extra couches!
Well, okay then. You're golden.
No, paler than that. It seems we weren't cooked completely.
162 My neighbor is renting out her house this month, so if any of you are up for it, email me. Bring extra couches!
Mineshaft party house! We can all chip in.
We're just swimming in the Revolution here in MA despite being Democrats (and some liberals).
165: Despite Michele Bachmann's best efforts to move it to New Hampshire?
150: People who live in Kankakee sign their address "KKK" which was confusing to a young signature-gatherer sent by Union Summer to help the nurses' union.
I've been canoeing on the Kankakee River, and by "canoeing" I mean "walking on some wet rocks carrying a boat".
I call people terrible names when I'm behind the
wheel of a car, but I've gotten better about making
sure my kids aren't in the back seat first.
Fleur is highly prone to rageful cursing, and it's a point of contention between us that she doesn't refrain from swearing in front of the children (typical scene in the car: "Mama, what's a fuckwad?")
So one of Fleur's friends taught her the trick of yelling "fantastic casserole!" at other drivers. To a driver in traffic who can't hear you through two panes of safety glass, your lips appear to be saying exactly what you want him to hear.
Bring extra couches!
To set alight and throw off the roof.
167: A fact I learned at my first real job, whereupon I insisted the organization I was working for pick a new abbreviation.
whereupon I insisted the organization I was working for pick a new abbreviation.
G. (= K3).
I'm not sure that there's any type of ignorance I'd be in favor of, or that despicable wisdom exists.
OH I BEG TO DIFFER.
refrain from swearing in front of the children
When my brother and I were little kids, we kept a running count of how many times each parent had dropped the F-bomb. At last count before we stopped caring, my mom was up to four and my dad, five, which seems pretty reasonable, considering they were living with a buncha jerk kids who did annoying shit like keeping count of their swear words.
I sure wish I had something intelligent to say. Anything, really. But I don't. Something something Eggsear sql something. You guys can fill in the parts I don't understand. Which, admittedly, is pretty much everything that gets discussed here.
Sounds great, Pauly! That'll be why they invented the JOIN and GROUP BY syntax...
What did poor essear do to be lumped in with me?
Apropos of nothing, I've only skimmed this so far, but I think Eliezer Yudkowsky, in this interview by John Baez, is saying that spending one's time worrying about catastrophic environmental dangers is irrational because the important danger that rational people worry about is that robots are going to enslave us all.
In an argument that it's more rational to devote more resources to "friendly AI" research than environmentalism:
I wouldn't say "Don't worry, we won't miss those species". But consider the future intergalactic civilizations growing out of Earth-originating intelligent life. Consider the whole history of a universe which contains this world of Earth and this present century, and also billions of years of future intergalactic civilization continuing until the universe dies, or maybe forever if we can think of some ingenious way to carry on. Next consider the interval in utility between a universe-history in which Earth-originating intelligence survived and thrived and managed to save 95% of the non-primate biological species now alive, versus a universe-history in which only 80% of those species are alive. That utility interval is not very large compared to the utility interval between a universe in which intelligent life thrived and intelligent life died out. Or the utility interval between a universe-history filled with sentient beings who experience happiness and have empathy for each other and get bored when they do the same thing too many times, versus a universe-history that grew out of various failures of Friendly AI.Once we are a galactic conquering super civilization, we won't miss those polar bears.
Oh, I see. I should have skimmed the latter two-thirds as well.
That's a really silly interview. C'mon, Baez.
As it stands, this is a basic research problem--which will always feel very hard, because we don't understand it, and that means when our brain checks for solutions, we don't see any solutions available. But this ignorance is not to be confused with the positive knowledge that the problem will take a long time to solve once we know how to solve it. It could be that some fundamental breakthrough will dissolve our confusion and then things will look relatively easy. Or it could be that some fundamental breakthrough will be followed by the realization that, now that we know what to do, it's going to take at least another 20 years to do it.
Come. On.
"Now, if we ignore the actual nature of the problems involved, we can make the following conclusions about saving the galaxy..."
Parts one and two of the interview. I'm reading them first so I can feel justified in being mocking and dismissive.
I feel no such need to seek justification. But let me know if I should.
Now that I've read the whole thing: what a waste of time. Though I begin to suspect that AI has already been achieved, because that dude doesn't think like a human.
179: Having read some of his other stuff, yes he certainly thinks the fundamental problem of our time is stopping super-intelligent robots from enslaving us all.
I cringed when I saw that he was interviewing that guy.
If Eliezer Yudkowsky is a robot sent back in time from the future to warn us of the dangers of Skynet, you would think they would have programmed him to sound more persuasive.
I guess it's more exciting to worry about hypothetical super-intelligent inhuman organizations destroying the world than actual inhuman organizations.
I guess it's more exciting to worry about hypothetical super-intelligent inhuman organizations destroying the world than actual inhuman organizations.
aka "corporations"
If Eliezer Yudkowsky is a robot sent back in time from the future to warn us of the dangers of Skynet, you would think they would have programmed him to sound more persuasive.
If you recall, first the Skynet robot is sent back, then the humans' robot.
The Skynet robot would be Ray Kurzweil. He even got greedy and brought some future technology back so he could get rich "inventing" it.
The Skynet robot would be Ray Kurzweil. He even got greedy and brought some future technology back so he could get rich "inventing" it.
I've got to say I don't find Kurzweil much more persuasive. Bafflingly, lots of people seem to, though. At least Britain's resident loony futurist, Kevin Warwick, can control robots with his mind.
So has anyone anything positive to say about Kevin Kelly?
As far as warnings go, I like Stross' Economics 2.0 in Accelerando, in that it, IMO, extrapolated from current sociopathic norms.
199: his name is tremendously alliterative.
Further to 201: If his middle name is Kermit, that's funny for two reasons.
As far as warnings go, I like Stross' Economics 2.0 in Accelerando, in that it, IMO, extrapolated from current sociopathic norms.
I agree. I thought his whole "derivatives-trading programs become self-aware and take over" thing was cute when I first read it in 2006; since then, I've tried not to think about it much, because it no longer seems either crazy or cute, just chilling.
(For the curious: Accelerando, in the format of your choice.)
Yeah, it took me a while to realize that AI was not a necessary element.
Those don't look like the output of stable systems.
The millisecond-scale orders are actually means by which the various trading companies communicate with each other for their own advantage.
209: there's a follow-up linked there that suggests online testing for latency, which seems plausible. Or it could just be that they're flooding tons of issues with orders all the time and only the ones that are extreme are visible.
Stable systems can lead to horse-'n'-buggy code.
Playlist! People love playlists!
"I Have Seen the Face of God"
North Dakota, Kris Delmhorst
We're From Barcelona, I'm From Barcelona
Brooklyn, Mos Def
California, Lucero
Ain't No God in Mexico, Waylong Jennings
Tennessee Waltz, Sam Cooke
El Paso, The Gourds
Goona Move to Kansas City, Vera Ward Hall (?)
Empire State of Mind, Jay-Z ft. Alicia Keys
One Great City!, The Weakerthans
The Prettiest Waitress in Memphis, Cory Branan
Tennessee, Split Lip Rayfield
Iowa (Traveling III), Dar Williams
Katmandu, Bob Seger
St. Louis, Nelly
Anybody Going To San Antone, Charley Pride
Home in San Antone, [?]
Omaha, Counting Crows
California Part II, Mason Jennings
Mexico, Cake
Manitoba, Frank Black
Mykonos, Fleet Foxes
Wichita, Gillian Welch
214: Waylong Jennings
Personal observation?
Also, I believe "St. Louis" s/b "St. Louie". I was typing quickly.
Probably too late for many to notice this, but great mixes Merganser and Jimmy Pongo! (I tried to download k-sky's, but for some reason it never did work correctly. I'm sure it was user error, though. I'll have to give it another go.)
Checking back in after a few days burried in finishing up an article (submitted! my first!).
I'm downloading Merganser's mix right now and very much looking forward to it. Still digging k-sky's, particularly the Sarah Dougher track. It reminds me of both Barbara Manning and various TwinTone acts of the mid-1990s. If I had an addition to suggest, it would be the Breeders's version of "Wicked Little Town" from the Wig in a Box tribute-comp.
Thanks again all for the thoughts and advice.