Fuck, what a mess. Do you need money for ER in Narnia!?
Yes, both doses are well over expected lethal dose for any normal body weight, but people vary a lot and there are long tails on the curve. (I know from paracetamol, as I'm not allowed aspirin. Personally I stay within 2 gr a day.) WTF made her think she could get high on paracetamol? She'd have more luck with chalk dust.
Best of luck to her, and to you. Pneumonia sucks.
Yikes. I'll dial back the post about how I'm sleepy today.
Ugh, best of luck, yes.
Do you think, Alameida, that cultural portrayals of addicts have gotten better than they used to be?
2. Take a couple of paracetamol and go to bed.
WTF made her think she could get high on paracetamol?
She was trying to get high off the tramadol in it, which is only slightly less difficult.
That's horrible. I'm sending good thoughts to you and her.
5: I thought paracetamol was just another word for acetaminophen.
Haven't encountered tramadol. You can get high on codeine, which the pedia thing says is much the same, but you need a fuck of a lot. IME, if you're put on a high dosage course of codeine you can be reduced to a sweating jittery mess after it finishes without ever having been remotely stoned while you were taking it.
7 is correct. Any painkiller that ends in -cet (Percocet, Darvocet, Ultracet) has acetaminophen in it as a secondary ingredient.
7. Yes it is. Most commonly sold as Tylenol over there, I believe. Good at dissolving your liver if taken to excess.
9: Huh, I never noticed that.
Was this girl confused or was she trying to kill herself?
10: Tylenol 3 is codeine and acetaminophen. Ultracet is tramadol and acetaminophen. Either one would take a hepatotoxic dose to get high enough to make it worth your while.
Oh. Ugh. I do hope that she pulls through.
Narnia needs better drug education: it's not hard to get the acetaminophen out of the pills.
(vel sim.)
I'd never seen this used before. Now it is my new knowledge for the day.
You don't hang out with enough classically educated people.
Crap. Is there any reason at all to formulate opiates in the same pill with acetaminophen other than to kill some addicts as a means of frightening others away? I can't see any other benefit other than the minimal added convenience of not having to say "Take one of these and two Tylenol," to someone who needs both painkillers.
There's a long tradition of mixing opiates with both acetominophen and aspirin, presumably to make the resulting painkiller more effective. I'd guess that the tradition goes back to before it was so hard to get opiates if you wanted them for recreational purposes, but I think there's a good case to stop. Personally I never use them, although I have a supply of codeine straight up in case I have pain that acetominophen can't deal with.
presumably to make the resulting painkiller more effective.
What I was wondering is if it's somehow an improvement over taking opiates and acetaminophen at the same time -- if formulating them in the same pill has an effect.
Yeah, this seems a little suicidal. Really not hard to remove the bad stuff from the fun stuff, and there's the internet.
What a terrible thing. I'm sorry. I'm wondering what the situation is in Narnia in the event that she has completely trashed her liver.
That's awful. I remember people used to do this when I was a kid - it was a notorious "daft kid takes a handful of pills they believe are harmless to get everyone's attention, doesn't die...whoops, checks out horribly and slowly two days later" trick. This is why you can't buy paracetamol in bulk quantities in the UK without a very good reason. (How long can we stand this oppression?)
re: 8
They prescribed me a boat load of codeine when they fucked up my thyroid surgery. I stopped taking it within a couple of days as codeine makes me feel a bit shittily odd without it being the sort of nice that I gather opiates are good for. Clearly not cut out to be a codeine abuser.
And yeah, re: mixing paracetamol and opiates. It's all doctors ever bloody offer you, here in the UK, if you have any kind of beyond-moderate pain. That, or fucking ibuprofen.
I do hope Alameida's pigeon friend is OK.
Good luck, anonymous Narnia person!
Is there any reason at all to formulate opiates in the same pill with acetaminophen other than to kill some addicts as a means of frightening others away?
Seems like the answer is "no". Apparently the resulting pill is Schedule III instead of Schedule II, but that just pushed the question into "why are the schedules designed like this?", and that does seem to be intentional.
http://reason.com/blog/2011/01/14/us-government-sorta-reconsider
http://www.harmreductionjournal.com/content/6/1/8
What constitutes "bulk quantities" in the UK? (Glancing at the 500-pill jar of 1000mg Tylenol on the shelf...)
re: 29
Generally you can't buy more than 16 x 500mg tablets at any one time, I think. If it's more they usually ask. If you have a good reason or doctor's prescription it's different.
21. I'm guessing there's no medical reason not to take them separately, but it's the kind of marketing trick I can easily imagine seeming cool in the mid c20, "Hey, here's every painkiller you want rolled into a single pill! Isn't Upjohn/Prizer/Whoever good to you?" After all, in the 50s they were selling pills with a layer of barbiturates to put you to sleep, then a layer of something slow dissloving, and a fucking great red in the middle to wake you up. They were capable of much worse than analgesic cocktails.
(vel sim.)
What does this mean?
After all, in the 50s they were selling pills with a layer of barbiturates to put you to sleep, then a layer of something slow dissloving, and a fucking great red in the middle to wake you up.
I'd never heard of that -- it sounds like something out of a Bugs Bunny cartoon.
30: "Or something similar". Now it's your new knowledge for the day as well!
yeah, she was trying to get high on tramadol which, have a fucking drink at that point! they are apparently changing things in the US so that the -cet formulations are all phased out in order to avoid this problem. there were lots of die-hards at the DEA wanting it to stay that way so that people would die and learn an important lesson about not trying to get wasted. sort of like spiking every 20th bottle of absolut with methyl alcohol just to keep people on their toes. when they formulated all these in the mid 20th century they didn't realize the effective does was so close to the toxic dose. I talked to her and it seems like she's going to live, though some level in her liver that was supposed to be 100 was 1700, and the doctors appear visibly anxious still. I had to call her dad for her, she was too afraid he'd be angry. awesome. today was way too exciting. I'll update the post.
Whew. Going to live is good, and I have the vague impression that what you said in the post is right about how resilient livers are -- that if she's made it through the initial insult, she probably won't have significant long-term damage. But I don't actually know what I'm talking about.
I had to call her dad for her, she was too afraid he'd be angry.
I think I'm going to cry now.
After all, in the 50s they were selling pills with a layer of barbiturates to put you to sleep, then a layer of something slow dissloving, and a fucking great red in the middle to wake you up.
Neat!
Oh GOOD. Good, good, good. Hopefully she will find her way out of the woods completely.
What a day, Al.
37: Now I'm picturing something like a jawbreaker with layers to set your sleep schedule for the next three days. Upper, downer. Upper, downer. Upper, downer. And then maybe something recreational in the middle for the weekend.
After all, in the 50s they were selling pills with a layer of barbiturates to put you to sleep, then a layer of something slow dissloving, and a fucking great red in the middle to wake you up.
Neat!How brave! How new!
Glad it sounds like things will be okay, Al. You are a generous and good soul.
Some level in her liver panels was supposed to be 100 and was 1700
Probably GGT. That is very high.
Alameida, you're kind for opening your life to people this way.
In the 1920s, industrial alcohol was spiked with plenty of methanol and not labelled as poison. Wayne Wheeler, who was Karl Rove's idol, was against labelling of the bottles or removal of the poison.
There was an odd case I read in law school -- at some point in the 20s or 30s, Sterno (I think) was reformulated to go from being sort of poisonous to very very poisonous. It had always had a label saying "Not for internal use" or something similar, and the label didn't change. Some alcoholics who had made a practice of drinking it when it was only sort of poisonous were injured or killed, and sued as a result. Don't remember the result.
it sounds like something out of a Bugs Bunny cartoon.
This made me laugh.
And then steam shot out of my ears.
I'm loving the idea of a gobstopper consisting of downers wrapped around speed, with a sugar layer tuned to provide the requisite interval. You realise that Hunter S. Thompson was actually surprisingly normal by the standards of his formative years.
"Crap. Is there any reason at all to formulate opiates in the same pill with acetaminophen other than to kill some addicts as a means of frightening others away? I can't see any other benefit other than the minimal added convenience of not having to say "Take one of these and two Tylenol," to someone who needs both painkillers."
Well, they also 'denature' alcohol with methanol, instead of using somethingi superbitter.
39: I mean, that's not totally dissimilar to "time release" drugs, but they usually do the same thing over the course. The "and now for something completely different" premise is kind of awesome.
We used to joke that taking certain (recreational) drugs after long periods of taking other (recreational) drugs would actually just put you right back at normal.
I can't see any other benefit other than the minimal added convenience
Patent protection and marketing exclusivity, of course; drop in some acetaminophen and--ta-da!--Percocet is an entirely different drug than Percodan, as far as FDA marketing regulations go. Oh, you meant benefit to the patient? The only potential benefit I can think of is if you're using a coating to make it extended release.
Who is Hunter S. Thompson? Some kind of writer guy? I don't really read much except for here.
Although, having seen the whopping huge medication regimens that certain patient populations are taking (particularly chronically ill or elderly ones), reducing the number of pills they have to swallow is a legitimate benefit.
49: We used to say that mental health at our technical institute could be at least partially replaced by a vending machine with an up button, a down button, and swirly button.
53: given the institution, I'm pretty disappointed with you for not actually building that machine.
54: Usually we were too high. Also, the engineers seemed more interested in building flame throwers?* I know, though. A lost opportunity.
*Not actually a better activity while high, but they were very stupid smart people.
I knew people who made both flamethrowers and drugs. Slackers!
Isnt giving her money a bad idea? Paying for the doctor directly is one thing.
Paying for the doctor directly is one thing—it never changes.
55: *Not actually a better activity while high
Perhaps the worst improvised weapon design activity to engage in while high?
The only thing actually encoded in the Y chromosome is the desire to build flame-throwers.
Some alcoholics... were... killed, and sued as a result. Don't remember the result.
Zombie Claimant is a classic of the genre.
:-( I hope she recovers. Poor Alameida, pneumonia!!
I also thought Narnia had free emergency rooms, etc..
I heard a radio program where some physicians were arguing that vicodin should be abolished on the grounds that the combination was too risky for addicts.
Thinking of you and your pigeon, Alameida.
it's 90 SGD to use the ER, regardless of what tests they do or drugs they give. less for poor citizens. it's meant to be a mild disincentive to going down because you're bored. yes, original plan of giving her money, not the greatest, etc. in the past I've taken her to the doctor, but I call pneumonia, no backsies. plus, sometimes people are so excited for you to trust them that they just go and do the right thing.
plus, sometimes people are so excited for you to trust them that they just go and do the right thing.
You are good to help her and others. Dealing with someone who abuses your kindness (and abuses themselves) requires tremendous patience and humility. I am reminded how similar the people you deal with are to people like my daughter.
Man, I figured there were fees, but surely they can charge it to your biometric ID or whatever they use there, rather than further dissuade people who need care and will accept the economic disincentive but lack ready cash.
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Mom got transferred to the State hospital. She was really mad post hearing, but now she seems to like the people there. It's still tearing me up, though.
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sorry bostoniangirl, that sucks.
minivet: it's not like they'd let you bleed to death w/o it.
71: Sure, but I imagine people with, say, chest pains could easily be dissuaded from even going, if cash-on-hand is required on pain of hectoring.