You probably would of been ok with" economists are terrible."
Hispanic women could give their money to me.
Could you get me a bunch of email addresses of Hispanic women? Pittsburgh is less than 2% Hispanic.
Come back to North Kackalacky, Moby! Fastest growing Hispanic population in the country.
Would it be so hard get the raise paid separately to a secret account?
5: I know. It was strange to move north and see white people building things again.
If it were me, I wouldn't want the deception of a separate account.
Ironic, given that I've got an elaborate secret online identity that requires ongoing lying from certain friends.
Lying to friends is different from lying to spouses.
I would think this would be more of a problem with promotions than raises. Raises generally aren't that big and you could just increase your withholding or 401k deductions or something to keep your take home pay low.
Raises generally aren't that big
Ain't that the fucking truth.
Lying with friends is different from lying with spouses.
Anyway I don't think this is a problem that the bank is going to lose a lot of sleep over. Although it might be prudent to get signed releases (that raises had been offered and rejected) that you could keep on file for the class action lawyers with their statistical "evidence" of discrimination.
Yeah! Those damn lawyers with their sleazy statistics describing systematic discrimination.
I think James has the backing of the Supreme Court in his use of scare quotes.
16: Keep it in the depression thread, bub.
8: I guess you're right.
But the ladies are already not telling their husbands about the offer of a raise, right? I don't doubt that there is a distinction between the two cases, but I'm not sure how exactly to formulate the principle.
One is passive omission, the other is proactive.
This is a conspiracy to make me seem morally obtuse, isn't it?
Of course not. You're deliberately propping me up to appear insightful.
Can I be skeptical about the premise of the post? I'll believe that women earning more than their husbands is a marital problem for some, and that avoiding it probably shapes some work decisions. I kind of doubt that there's a broad demographic group actually turning down offered raises on that basis (not that I doubt it's ever happened, but it seems unlikely that it happens a lot.) People like money, and turning down a raise seems like a really unusual thing to do.
22: How do you even turn down a raise, just practically? Tell your boss I won't take a penny more than $15/hour or I'll walk?
Can I be skeptical about the premise of the post?
Since Shearer elected to go with another angle, someone has to.
Alternative suggestion: is this a legit way of saying "I experience an unusually high marginal benefits withdrawal rate or marginal tax rate, as is typical of middle income earners in countries with extensive tax-credit/workfare systems, so I'd rather not make a voluntary contribution to deficit reduction"?
Hispanic women in Texas are going Galt.
Because I'm a suspicious, evil person, I wonder if your friend is reporting something she heard that would be better summarized as "A Hispanic woman once expressed a concern about the effect a raise would have on her marriage, so out of cultural sensitivity we're now systematically underpaying Hispanic women."
No, this was in the context of Hispanic female college students sabotaging themselves out of fear that they might get a job that pays more than their father's job. She is a precise person who worked as an accountant. I'm not saying it was an epidemic or typical of the demographic, but I bet this exact scenario played out more than once.
Not so much Galt, but places that decide to do quite a bit of their social policy via tax-credit payments (like Knifecrime Island, which IIRC got the idea from Massachusetts) often manage to so arrange things that if you get a raise you lose disproportionate amounts of money (and if you forget to tell them, the Revenue may bill you for the year's worth).
Working on the time honoured principle that *everything's crazier in the States* and that you have a non-PAYE tax system, thus increasing the chances of a nasty surprise at year-end, I expect this problem to exist there as well and to be worse.
I further expect that Americans have enough sense to work around it.
was in the context of Hispanic female college students sabotaging themselves out of fear that they might get a job that pays more than their father's job.
Do you see this happen where you work?
A while ago I was involved in an investigation of marketing practices practices associated with HIV drugs. One company had a drug that that tended to reduce the "wasting away" physical appearance of the faces of HIV patients, who tend to appear gaunt. This was a big marketing point with the the gay male demographic, becuase it meant they didn't look like they had AIDS. The drug company discovered that this feature should not be advertised to the Hispanic female demographic, because no one suspected them of having HIV, and looking facially thinner was something they preferred.
A few people in the discussion were asserting that it happens. But no, I haven't seen it happen in Hispanic female math majors, (but they are a subset that are already bucking gender expectations.)
and looking facially thinner was something they preferred.
How peculiar!
you could just increase your withholding or 401k deductions or something to keep your take home pay low
This is a good idea, and could work if the woman is the only one dealing with family finances, but would break down if the husband ever looked at the pay stub.
I've heard women complain that men don't know where the stub is.
A woman who had worked in high schools for most of her career said it was not uncommon for the dad of a smart Hispanic girl to rule out college out of hand because she was female. As in, she contacts the parents to meet with them to discuss the possibility of this girl attending college, and during the meeting, the dad says "Girls in our family do not go to college" and that's that. (I believe she was a guidance counselor.)
Not asserting that 37 is typical by any means. But just that there are significantly many families where it is the case.
I have a strong feeling that we should stop dating, marrying, or having sex with men who have fragile egos. Just across the board--blip!--if the thought of a woman making more money, or having more education, or knowing any one thing you don't makes your scrotum tighten with fear, you don't get to sleep with professional, intelligent women anymore. I am so fucking sick of hearing my students talk about how they have to act dumb for their boyfriends, or lower their goals, or raise the pitch of their voices because some ugly stupid motherfuckers they're dating got afraid that their girlfriends are turning into men.
It's kind of hard to diagnose all of someone's insecurities before you get enmeshed with them. I manage pretty well by being frightening and hostile on early acquaintance, meaning that anyone I get involved with is both secure in themselves and possessed of a certain level or irrational doggedness, but that's not a strategy, just a personality type. For someone who's innately warm and affirming, weeding out fragile men is going to be a difficult project.
I am so fucking sick of hearing my students talk about how they have to act dumb for their boyfriends
Maybe they really want to act dumb for their own reasons (it does make things as different as binge drinking and watching TV more fun) and know they shouldn't tell their professor they enjoy being dumb.
The potential motivations here are so complicated that it's hard to know how to read anecdotal reports by someone outside the culture. The most obvious reason to turn down a promotion based on family concerns is that it would make you work too hard/take on responsibilities incompatible with your committments at home. That's potentially related to patriarchal insecurities but also distinct, it could occur in a perfectly egalitarian couple. In a traditionalist culture it could even be thought of in terms of wanting to keep your feminine role in the household (e.g. being the one always home in time to cook dinner) even if your motivation is basically that you like your life the way it is.
God, I would *love* it if Roberta made more money than me. Or just more money than she currently does. Or heck, even wasn't having her job of the last ten years eliminated next month.
40: It's really hard. Often you're already in it with someone who seems like he's got his shit together, and then all of a sudden he starts making fun of you for using a word he doesn't know. What I didn't realize in my 20's is that it's not going to get better after than.
41: Naw, it's a thing. I see it. In my class, they're all smart and awesome, and then they talk about how weird it is to be in college classes and not having to fake stupidity every waking moment.
44: You should make a video called "It's Not Going To Get Better."
Or heck, even wasn't having her job of the last ten years eliminated next month.
Oh, man. Are you guys okay?
Or maybe, "It's going to stay about the same but you'll have more unexplained pain."
It's kind of hard to diagnose all of someone's insecurities before you get enmeshed with them.
I don't think the types AWB describes are hard to spot, though I suspect that some women are socialized to tolerate them - or to internalize the worldview of those men.
I dunno. I think they can be hard to spot, in that actually being in a relationship triggers a lot of expectations that don't show up in interactions with friends and acquaintances. I get along great with all sorts of men at work who don't seem to have any issues with women being clever and aggressive, but whose personal relationships seem much more traditional.
Yeah, we're okay. The grant that has funded the study is coming to an end, and this was always the end date. She gets a couple of months severance and then some amount of unemployment, and she's got marketable skills and experience. In a way, the timing is fortunate. Her father is showing accelerating signs of dementia (both his father and brother were taken out by Alzheimer's) and so there's a lot of work that needs to be done getting her mother prepared to take over all the stuff that he's handled over the years. And it will give her the chance to get some other stuff around our house fixed so that we can put it on the market next year, as we've outgrown this one (which was ideal for two adults and a part-time kid, but is now mighty crowded after adding two more full-timers).
Just go for second-best, baby,
Don't put his love to the test,
You know, you know, you've got to,
Never express how it feels,
And maybe then you'll know your love's a heel...
(it does make things as different as binge drinking and watching TV more fun
These things don't seem very different to me. Certainly they often go together.
I like my funding like I like my women, soft and from the government.
When we're in our 20's, we're so self-destructively hopeful. Maybe this person who is shitty to me will get over it and start being nice. But they won't. People who are mean to you at the beginning of a relationship stay mean. And you can fantasize about how sorry they are that they treated you like shit, but they're not sorry. They actually would just rather you stopped existing.
It really does take a very long time to learn that nice people are just nice, and they're not petty tyrants about stupid ego crap. Unfortunately, a lot of people get married while they still are willing to put up with that shit.
My parents have this kind of relationship. My dad has been out of work off and on throughout my life, and during those periods, my mom won't get a job, because it would hurt my dad's feelings. (This is how we lost all our college savings; we had nothing to go school on.) She won't serve him unfamiliar foods, because he might think she's trying to educate him. She won't pay for dinner, even if she's holding the cash, but will instead hand it under the table to him. My dad won't even read a book written by a woman, because he sees his position as a man as challenged by the possibility of the existence of educated women. I love my dad, but he's kind of a prick due to severe insecurities. It's so pathetic.
58 does not exhaust the possible paths to misery. It's also possible for people to get worse. Theoretically, it is also possible for people to get better, but I have actually only seen this happen firsthand above age 55, and not often.
The OP dynamic is, roughly speaking, the setup of My Big Fat Greek Wedding.
Working on the time honoured principle that *everything's crazier in the States* and that you have a non-PAYE tax system, thus increasing the chances of a nasty surprise at year-end, I expect this problem to exist there as well and to be worse.
PAYE="pay as you earn?"
We do have that.
And best wishes to Roberta dealing with all of that.
OK, this is me putting on the annoying white liberal guy in the race discussion hat, but:
1) I share LB's strong skepticism that there's anything even remotely worth generalizing from this anecdote. I can think of -- I dunno, 10? -- counterexamples just off the top of my head, where Latina women are the main breadwinners in the household. In fact, given the overall structure of the economy, I'd bet that there are more Hispanic households in the USA where the women earns more than the man than there are white non-hispanic households.
Ttam's point from the other thread, that working class people often have more real-lived experience with both multiculturalism and different gender roles, is well worth repeating.
2) In this context, there seems something weird about using "Hispanic" as a category. You live in Texas, don't you mean Mexicans? Not sure why that's rubbing me the wrong way a bit.
did I annoy you with my snoop dogg halford? did I?
Yeah, the "Hispanic" generalization bothers me, too. White women do this shit all the time, too, and latina women have a verrrrry broad range of backgrounds and experiences. This is probably about class more than anything.
Maybe I'll go eat Peruvian chicken and ask the counter lady how her husband would feel if she made more money than he did. However, I suspect her husband is the guy making the chicken and that they don't really have separable income streams. So maybe I'll go eat Peruvian chicken because I really like roasted chicken.
I find the fact that M/tch does all the cooking very threatening to my sense of womanhood. I'm going to insist that he stop, right after we finish the leftovers from last night's squash blossom frittata. Or possibly after he makes another batch of rtfs's brownies.
In this context, there seems something weird about using "Hispanic" as a category. You live in Texas, don't you mean Mexicans?
I had this conversation with Teo once -- he was talking about New Mexico rather than Texas, but apparently Hispanic is used there to cover "Spanish-speaking (or originally Spanish-speaking) families who aren't Mexican immigrants because they never moved to the US, they've been in the same place since before the US was there."
So, while 'Hispanic' sounds overgeneralized to me, I think it's more specific in the Southwest. Or, maybe not that it's more specific, it might still include immigrants from Spanish-speaking countries, but there is a category of non-immigrants for whom there's no other useful descriptor.
Just call them Persians and be done with it.
petty tyrants about stupid ego crap
A-number-one thing to avoid in intimate partners. Probably more common among men, but also easier to spot because the gender script doesn't require them to hide it.
On preview I see this is off-topic now, but whatever.
39 et seq: I'll venture that it's not just men in our society who police gender conformity. I've sometimes speculated that one of the reasons I don't have more female than male friends is that the former often expect me to be more girly than I am. This is in general, of course; there are plenty of women who don't expect other women to perform femininity, but there are plenty who do. (I've put this without much nuance, I realize, but that's the shape of the thought.)
40: I manage pretty well by being frightening and hostile on early acquaintance, meaning that anyone I get involved with is both secure in themselves and possessed of a certain level or irrational doggedness, but that's not a strategy, just a personality type.
This made me laugh a bit. I'm not sure if I'm frightening and hostile on early acquaintance (I don't think so), but to the extent I may be, it is a behavioral stance adopted over time, not necessarily consciously, to make clear that I'm not a fan of, erm, certain things.
(/all about me)
In Central Texas, Hispanic means anyone whose family came from Central or South America, including the residents who were here when Texas was Mexico. It wouldn't surprise me if there were finer distinctions closer to the border.
I'm still adjusting to saying "Hispanic" rather than "Latino," which I have almost never heard anyone of any race using here. "Chicano" seems not to have survived the '70's.
I agree that sweeping statements about specific ethnic or cultural groups are not the way to go.
That said, I have extensive firsthand experience with women:
a) turning down job offers
b) turning down increased hours (=more money) -- and this is going from, say, 18 hours a week to 30 hours, not crazy overtime
...because the emotional hullabaloo it would cause at home is not worth the financial gain.
IME it's not specific to any one cultural group, nor is it entirely a class thing. It is linked with traditionalist gender roles, and it's particularly strong in communities where the man feels that having his wife not work is a status symbol for him.
The thing is, these men are not being entirely irrational. If their wives get more financial independence, they often DO start doing less at home, and sometimes even leave the marriage.
But yeah, this is part of why I roll my eyes at those blithe economic assertions that people will always respond in predictable ways to financial incentives.
one of the reasons I don't have more female than male friends is that the former often expect me to be more girly than I am.
Oh, true. I don't want to play the who-eats-less game or the who-feels-fat-today game or the who-loves-shopping-more game. But I think for a long time I thought it was therefore OK to put up with women who play the fragile-ego game around professional/intellectual shit instead, because at least they weren't playing to type. But nope, it turns out people with fragile egos are terrible friends no matter what their gender or gender performance.
75.2: My South American roommate says "Latino," "because [he's] not fucking Spanish."
76.last: I hate to do this, but: is it really the case that economists of a certain stripe assert that people will always respond in predictable ways? Aren't they referring to responses taken in the aggregate? This isn't a strong objection to what you say, just a point of clarification (and I may be wrong).
It really does take a very long time to learn that nice people are just nice, and they're not petty tyrants about stupid ego crap.
See, "nice people are just nice" has always been easy and intuitive for me.
I've had at least the normal allotment of regrettable relationships as a result of my inexperience and ignorance, but I've never dated a bad person, and never aspired to.
I blame some portion of my relationship regrets on my upbringing, but it occurs to me that I was also brought up to deeply admire human decency.
30: What kind of tax credits do you mean? The biggest one here for workers is the EITC, which sensibly phases out pretty gradually as income rises. Disability and food stamps, on the other hand, I think do disappear abruptly if you start earning above the low limits.
It's true that people who were raised by decent, sane people have an easier time becoming decent, sane adults. In the Midwest, and probably in a lot of places, there's more of a culture of being in truly abysmal relationships, and talking about it all the time with your friends, and then they say, "That's how men/women are!" instead of saying, "Holy shit, that is terrible. How do you stand being treated like a dog?" It's to the point that it's pretty much how a lot of adults make friends, complaining about their partners.
I find myself really alienated by it, as a single person. While visiting the small town where I'm moving, I was suddenly caught in the middle of one of these conversations about how terrible husbands can be, ha ha, and when they look to me and I say, "I'm so glad I'm single!" it's the wrong answer. I'm supposed to go, "Oh, men! Gotta love em!"
In the Midwest, and probably in a lot of places, there's more of a culture of being in truly abysmal relationships
To the extent that this is true (and I'm not so sure it even is), I would attribute it to higher rates of conservatism and its concomitant fucked-up view of gender roles, rather than to the culture of the Midwest. I don't see that people in less conservative areas of the Midwest (i.e., cities) are necessarily in more abysmal relationships than their coastal counterparts.
I said economic assertions, which are made by many people beyond just economists.
Frankly, I think at least as much damage is done by people with semi-petty amounts of power who have a layperson's misunderstanding of economic theory. I don't claim to have any understanding of economic theory, but I do have a lot of experience watching people dismiss genuine policy proposals with blanket assertions that people will never behave the way they are, in fact, being observed to behave.
(Now trying to think of a non-identifying example and not immediately coming up with one.)
and then they say, "That's how men/women are!"
I confess that routine drives me nuts. My mom used to do it: "Well, you know with men, it's always manana" (insert appropriate symbol over the first "n" there).
And so on. I then felt it incumbent upon me to say, Well, no, mom, some men are like that, and some women are like that, but not all men, and not all women, and blah blah blah [fall into internal eye-rolling silence, agree not to talk about it any more].
I don't claim to have any understanding of economic theory, but I do have a lot of experience watching people dismiss genuine policy proposals with blanket assertions that people will never behave the way they are, in fact, being observed to behave.
(Now trying to think of a non-identifying example and not immediately coming up with one.)
How about the ever-popular with intellectuals of all supposed ideologies "Giving things or services to poor people is inefficient and/or patronizing. Just give them money."
I was suddenly caught in the middle of one of these conversations about how terrible husbands can be, ha ha, and when they look to me and I say, "I'm so glad I'm single!" it's the wrong answer.
Heh. The other wrong answer, which I do not say aloud, is "You have no idea how much you take for granted. I see no indication that you have the skills to be single. Fix it or stop whining, but I am pretty damn sure you wouldn't like the alternative."
Although I don't generally have conversations with people about how terrible husbands are, hah hah. I'm mostly thinking of a couple women who were rolling their eyes about their husband's kid techniques, which looked perfectly adequate to me, in a 'mismatched socks, but fed and having a good time' kinda way.
I agree with LB in 28. Urban myth. Like Heebie's ass.
I do have a lot of experience watching people dismiss genuine policy proposals with blanket assertions that people will never behave the way they are, in fact, being observed to behave.
I've grown increasingly impatient with the variant:
I would do this decent thing, but other people wouldn't.
Which I grew sensitive to during the Obama campaign, in the form of, "I would vote for a black man no problem, but other people wouldn't so we should defensively not select a black candidate.'
I've gotten fond of the response: Pave the high road, block off the low road," as a response to "But other people will X!"
Admittedly, it works better when you're talking to an actual policymaker.
You have no idea how much you take for granted. I see no indication that you have the skills to be single
Ha! Yes, this. Seriously. It must be so impossibly difficult, having two incomes to rely on in case one of you loses a job, having a source of affection and sexual comfort available to you right in your own home, knowing that no one by default considers you a threat to their marriage or way of life, having someone to put sunblock on your back or call 911 if you choke at dinner. That must be so fucking hard.
Well, I do believe that:
yucky marriages
I'm really glad I don't have the terrible aspects of a bad marriage to handle, and I look on my pleasant life with great satisfaction. But it took me a really long time get good at being single, and the complaining women don't have those skills or background. They wouldn't like it one bit, at first.
Shoot, I meant:
yucky marriages are much worse than being single, which is worse than being happily partnered.
And I'm off to a meeting.
yucky marriages are much worse than being single, which is worse than being happily partnered.
I'll buy that ranking. Obviously, I prefer being single to almost anything. But I still think it's kind of shitty when people with partners come and complain to me about how terrible it is that someone wants to have sex with them all the time. I don't call up starving people and tell them how much it hurts to overeat.
If the people you're talking about actually have a problem (being harassed and pressured into unwanted sex), I don't think the fact that you have a different problem (not enough sex) makes them insensitive for complaining.
Now, if they don't have any real problems at all, and are just whining about nothing (or, minor disagreements about exactly when or how much sex to have), then they're jerks for complaining. But not otherwise.
No, I didn't mean my friends call me to say they've been raped and I say "lucky you." Of course not.
I didn't mean my friends call me to say they've been raped and I say "lucky you."
I feel like this could be appropriate in some circumstances, perhaps when . . . . Oh, forget it.
These are interactions of the "You're so lucky to be single! You must get so much done, without someone to talk to or sleep with!" kind.
Sure, but there's pressure and harassment and guilt-tripping short of rape. Feeling emotionally/legally responsible for keeping someone else sexually happy when it's not reasonably close to what's going to make you happy yourself is a tough spot to be in.
101: Oh, that sounds like "I have no real problems, but I'll bitch anyway."
(Although "You must get so much done" does make sense to me. That really does seem like an upside of being single -- control of your schedule without always needing to work around another person. Not that it's a sufficient upside to offset all of the other positives of a good marriage and negatives of being single, but it is a plus on the single side of the ledger.)
"You are so lucky that women dont want to date you! You have all that free time to yourself. And think of the money you save!"
Eh, the grass is always greener is pretty much the end of this conversation. The ranking in 96 is correct.
I do regularly ask friends who do not have kids what they do with all of their money.
Seriously, do you bath in it? Smoke it?
What do you do!?!?
Oh, totally. And I don't want anyone asking me where I am. There are many positives to being single. But I do often feel Megan's reaction, that being single is really difficult, and that people who have never been single have weirdly romantic ideas about singleness without actually wanting to experience it. It's very much like rich people who have opined to me that it would be wonderful if their children got a chance to experience poverty, to be free of the burden of so much money. Lots of money is a burden I don't want, but that doesn't mean I'm comfortable with someone who has it telling me how easy it must be to be poor.
106.1: That's obnoxious, will. What I do with it is continue to pay off my student loans and my ridiculously high health insurance premium. So there!
Life sucks in general, and the only thing that makes it slightly more bearable is complaining about it.
The problem is that friends fight over who gets to complain more.
Yeah, I've certainly been single, but it's a long time ago by now. Something that encourages married people to be romantic about singleness is probably nostalgia -- when I was single, I was in my early twenties, and adorably prematurely bitter and cynical, rather than age-appropriately bitter and cynical as I am now. It's hard not to associate being single with "And my back was never sore, and my skin was radiantly clear, and I was still an untapped mass of potential," even though none of that has anything to do with relationship status.
Look at AWB, complaining about the burden of having friends. What of the friendless?
110: That's probably true. My mother was single as an adult for about a month when she was 19, and, from her stories, everything that ever happened to her happened during that month. It's really hard for her to imagine what my life is like.
I've been rich and I've been poor, and I'm here to tell you, rich is better.
It's hard not to associate being single with "And my back was never sore, and my skin was radiantly clear, and I was still an untapped mass of potential," even though none of that has anything to do with relationship status.
It shouldn't be that hard not to associate it with that.
I guess you could say I'm single, but I don't think of it like that 'cause I've got my Mom to make me sandwiches and bring me Snapple. My Mom's the best!
114: I'll work on being a better person.
Can we just agree that marriage and children suck all that is good in life out of you?
Seriously, do you bath in it? Smoke it?
Yes.
116: Sorry, what I was getting at is that you're observing that many married people haven't been single since they had radiant skin and so on, and that says to me that being married is the default assumption for people over, say, 30. Or 25, even.
I would very much like it if people would get over that default assumption. I suppose that's an obvious thing to say. Nonetheless it annoys me a great deal: it sounds like it's saying, What do you mean, you're past your radiant skin phase and still not married?!?
Eh.
OT: Almost every assertion in this stupid WaPo story is factually wrong. Fuck you Washington Post.
To be sure. But, if you are reading the WP for LA traffic reports, you've pretty much fucked yourself already.
I would very much like it if people would get over that default assumption. I suppose that's an obvious thing to say. Nonetheless it annoys me a great deal: it sounds like it's saying, What do you mean, you're past your radiant skin phase and still not married?!?
Well said.
||
For the people here who liked the Susanna Hoffs and Matthew Sweet album of sixties covers I would recommend the Kate Pierson / Bill Janovitz / Graham Parker sixties covers album. I'm listening to it right now, and it's very good.
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119: Huh. I don't really know how to talk about what singleness looks like from a long-married person's perspective without, well, speaking from the perspective of a long-married person who was much younger the last time they were single. I'm not clear how that makes 'married' a default assumption for anyone out of their first youth.
If you can figure out how to get across the point I was making -- that for that specific segment of the population who is married, singleness is hard not to associate with youth -- without making the assumption you were offended by, I'm all ears.
I kind of doubt that there's a broad demographic group actually turning down offered raises on that basis (not that I doubt it's ever happened, but it seems unlikely that it happens a lot.) People like money, and turning down a raise seems like a really unusual thing to do.
Is your skepticism based on current conditions re: gender roles/relations, or do you doubt that this ever happened much?
It does seem possible to imagine a single adult's life as being like a married adult, but without a spouse (in positive and negative ways), rather than to imagine a single adult as being perpetually at the age you were at when you were last single. At some point, that fantasy has to strain credulity.
My mom can do it, after a lot of practice. After many years of trying to give me single-woman advice based on her dim memories of being a freshman in college, it became painfully obvious that she'd have to start thinking of me as a real adult person, not a perpetual child, even though I was not married.
125: Sure, I'm talking about an error that's easy to fall into, not one that's impossible to avoid or correct.
119: ... speaking from the perspective of a long-married person who was much younger the last time they were single
Though I think parsimon's comment was a fair reminder, as a general statement, I would also say that your original comment was pretty clear.
...
Reading this conversation I'm just aware that it's really hard to have a conversation about relationships that's inclusive of the fact that people have really different experiences.
*shrug* I don't have a specific complaint or suggestions, I'm just generally sympathetic to anyone moved to make a comment of, "plenty of people's experiences don't fit the pattern you've just described."
Sure, I'm talking about an error that's easy to fall into, not one that's impossible to avoid or correct.
I'll also say that, from time to time, I have the same experience thinking about work -- "when I was 21 I had so much more time, and life seemed more open-ended, it's frustrating that work has absorbed so much energy . . ."
It's easy to have that thought.
It's easy to have that thought.
Not for everyone. For some of us it's hard!
101: Have you tried pointing out that they really could be single if they wanted to? It's not that hard to do.
At some point, that fantasy has to strain credulity.
Every time I look in a mirror I wonder who that old guy is.
130: I have recommended it. Then they stop smiling.
On the word "Hispanic": the grants we apply to are for "Hispanic-serving institutions", so that's the word that gets used at school.
132: If you aren't going to give them a weapon or an alibi, why would they smile?
133: Vamos. Es un libro de cocina.
134: Wow, you must have bad breakups.
136: The people he was involved with had worse.
I can think of -- I dunno, 10? -- counterexamples just off the top of my head, where Latina women are the main breadwinners in the household. In fact, given the overall structure of the economy, I'd bet that there are more Hispanic households in the USA where the women earns more than the man than there are white non-hispanic households.
I so don't get the point of this. I bet you're right! I bet it is common - especially given the gender disparity of the current recession - that the women are the breadwinners super duper often!
Nevertheless, it may be a thing that the older women really do not like being in this position, to the extent where some of them would have turned down raises.
It is weird. If you're unhappy with a partner, you really can dump them. It's not like I said, "Why not just try being childless if you hate it so much?" The case I'm thinking of, it was a boyfriend of six months this girl was complaining about.
141: I translated a very old joke.
140 gets it exactly right, except that it's a bit understated. So almost exactly right, I guess.
Re: "Hispanic", and Rob's question of whether what is really meant is "Mexican", referring to someone as "Mexican" here would mean or imply that the person is a citizen of Mexico. You might use "Mexican-American", but "Hispanic" is in wide use and basically means the same thing, while also potentially including the Salvadorans, Guatemalans, Puerto Ricans, and Persians Iranians one sometimes encounters.
138 -- you appeared to be making a point about Hispanic culture more broadly, or suggesting that the phenomenon described in the OP was common or significant. If not, no problem -- it's just an anecdote. And of course there's a real issue with men feeling shame because women earn more than they do.
Have you tried pointing out that they really could be single if they wanted to? It's not that hard to do.
For a low, low fee, Dogg.
142. God, I feel old. What's "The Twilight Zone"?
Here, "Hispanic" sounds vaguely census-y. We'd (OK, I) would probably use "Mexican" for "Mexican American" and call out other nationalities specifically; I think "Latino" sounds a bit more natural if you're including all Spanish speaking brown people in one lump. I'm just reporting from my own ear.
148: I felt smart for knowing it didn't start with the Simpsons.
I thought I had avoided opining about Hispanic culture broadly.
Also, how many of the 10 off the top of your head fit:
Typically the woman had been at a desk job for a few decades, while her husband was a blue collar worker.
I'm assuming turning down raises is a real thing within a small, aging, conservative Hispanic population, and I really wouldn't know how to characterize the group.
149: Here in NY, I used to think of Latino as the correct modern term including anyone from a non-European Spanish-speaking background. OTOH, Sally's Spanish teachers, who are people-who-I'd-call-Latina teaching a class made up entirely (other than Sally) of people-I'd-call-Latino/a, use 'Hispanic'. Which makes me think I'm wrong about the usage around here.
Seriously, do you bath in it? Smoke it?
Well, the personal trainer, masseur and Fluevogs all take their share.
139: I guess loss-aversion and hyperbolic discounting make breakups tough for many people even if they think they'd be better off afterwards.
Or maybe they're just insincere.
And I got my sister trapeze lessons. Those cost money.
154: Breaking up with someone can also feel like a cruel thing to do them even if you're not happy. There's a limit to how much weight that should be given, but it does affect people's decisionmaking.
Some people feel "Hispanic" is deprecated (or should be) because it privileges the Spanish (as in Spain) aspects of identity/culture at the expense of the native Mexican/Guatemalan/Parsi etc bits.
This admittedly unsourced and hard to read graph suggests that the wage gap between Hispanic men and Hispanic women is substantially less than the one between white men and white women, as of 2001.
I never heard anyone call anyone else who wasn't from Mexico "Mexican" until I met people from California.
I had a client who refered to the child that they had adopted from Guatamala as Mexican.
94: This is right in many ways, but it sucks that single people don't have more natural supports. It's too bad that neighbors aren't better about looking after people. It doesn't help with the choking, but it might if someone had a stroke or a bad fall.
157. And "Latino/a" doesn't? I hadn't realised the Roman Empire had encompassed South and Central America.
160: They should just call it one of the little brown ones.
162: And somebody should tell the French that crossing the Atlantic doesn't turn a Celt or a Latin into an Anglo-Saxon.
162: Usually it's used in the sense of "I'm not Hispanic, I'm Mexican", not "I'm not Hispanic, I'm Latino".
116: I'll work on being a better person.
And say "sir" when you do.
White women do this shit all the time, too, and latina women have a verrrrry broad range of backgrounds and experiences.
Wikipedia has a nice short discussion of the various uses/meanings over here.
152: Wouldn't Brazilians also be Latino? For census purposes, at least, they're not hispanic.
Oops, I totally messed up the link in 168. Here's what I meant to link to.
I think M/tch meant to linkthis Wikipedia article, which is interesting.
Apparently, "Latino" got a big boost by being the term of choice for the LA Times, which then got adopted by other papers. Which is totally consistent with the word sounding natural to my ear. There is a slight preference among Latino/Hispanics for "Hispanic" but apparently a strong preference for referring to specific country of origin.
Well, I was wrong about what M/tch meant to link to. But the discussion in the link in 171 is interesting.
None of this is exactly set in stone, but "Latin America" includes Brazil and the other non-Spanish-speaking South American countries. In Chile, at least, I have never heard the word "Hispanic" and have only heard the region referred to as latinoamérica.
From the other side of the looking glass, by the way--I can't speak for non-Chilean language customs, but the most common term for the United States is norteamérica. This is in line with the worldwide belief that Canada doesn't count.
And that no one remembers where Mexico is.
Estados Unidos. Adj., Estadounidense. Never anything that might suggest that "America" is anything smaller than a hemisphere's worth of continents. Norteamérica would not fly in my house without a lecture about how incredibly racist and small-minded USians (see?) are.
Oh, and if you think Californians are bad about describing every brown-skinned Spanish speaker as "Mexican", come to Chile, where:
* All East Asians are chinos even if they're the proprietors of a sushi restaurant
* Turks, Greeks, Arabs and many West Asians are turcos (Greeks especially dislike this, as you might expect)
* Anyone with darker skin than a turco is a negro and this is always an appropriate topic for conversation.
I usually refer to myself as estadounidense but the reactions I get rather indicate that this makes me sound like Urkel. Of course, the conflation of Canadians and USians is entirely in line with those previous observations.
Conflating the residents of two different LA countries would be totally inappropriate, though. The main reason Americans don't know geography is because they don't like futbol, I think.
We can't even call ourselves Americans. They love to correct you, saying, ''South Americans are Americans too.''
- Give me a break. Norteamericano is the correct term.
But that makes no distinction between us or Canadians.''Yankee'' and ''Gringo'' are obviously pejorative...but it's the standard dictionary term that's the most insulting. Estadounidense. Dense. D-E-N-S-E. It's the same spelling. Dense. Thick, stupid. Every time you hear it, Estadouni- dense. It's a direct slap in the face. Incredible.
-You're too sensitive.
Great! Now we're too sensitive!
Mexico is centroamerica, because they speak Spanish there, of course.
I'll stand up for "Mexican" as the better short descriptive term for Mexican-Americans. Consistent with US-usage for immigrant groups from Europe; Frank O'Malley whose family has been in the US for 6 generations is "Irish", Tony Dimone is "Italian," Jon Olafson in Minnesota is "Swedish," etc.
175: The United States isn't the only Estados Unidos out there, you racist.
This is needlessly confusing. Canada should become part of the United States and Mexico could be promoted to Canada.
179: Due to proximity and history, it's often necessary or desirable to distinguish between someone of Mexican descent and someone is actually a Mexican. That's much less the case with the Irish, Italians, and Swedes.
Then, Guatemala could be promoted to Mexico but only if it was officially "Mexico" and not "Los Estados Unidos Mexicanos."
"Mexican" as the better short descriptive term for Mexican-Americans
Eh. I know I'm finicky about that, but I feel like I have a very good understanding of what Asian-Am kids from LA in the 80's and 90's are like, but my model of Asian-in-Asia kids would be no better than a guess. I really mean that hyphen.
OK, "Mexican American" is descriptively better, but clunkier (I'll bet you don't use "Asian-Am" in conversation, you use either "Asian" or "Korean" or "Chinese" or what have you). And "Mexican" is better than "Hispanic."
The correct term for members of any nationality is "stupid motherfucker".
Irish expats aren't that rare these days, surely?
My Cuban immigrant parents would default to saying "Hispanic," not "Latino." My living-in-Mexico, Mexican cousins would default to saying "latino," not "hispano." They would also say all of "norteamericano," "estadounidense," or "gringo" to describe me depending on context.
Also, my parents refer to non-Cubans who have adopted Cuban mores as "aplatanado" (lit., bananafied).
OT: Anyone here knows any Yiddish?
OK, I'm translating Holy Rollers.
SAM
Fershtay, fershtay. I don't want to be a
burden to my family or, or the
community.
01:10:53;13 REBBE HOROWITZ
Very well, very well. I have given my
blessing for the first 'beshow'.
01:11:01;17 SAM
You have?
01:11:03;05 REBBE HOROWITZ
I pray the meeting goes in your favor.
You will be a husband and father before
you know it.
01:11:10;09 SAM
Thank you, Rebbe. A sheynem dank.
01:11:12;09 REBBE HOROWITZ
Only then will you find true joy. And all
this will become clear.
No such thing as a "beshow", afaict.
Wait, you were a gringo even though you're Cuban? I wasn't even sure if Europeans could be gringos.
(I'll bet you don't use "Asian-Am" in conversation, you use either "Asian" or "Korean" or "Chinese" or what have you).
You would lose that bet, just like you're going to lose our other bet (on food production in 2030, iirc).
I really am that pedantic, is what I'm saying.
(Also, Asian-Am rolls off the tongue pretty easy, so that helps.)
That seems totes bizarro to me, but go for it!
I don't say "totes" in real conversation. I do say "bizarro."
In real live he'd have said "That seems mondo bizarro to me."
194: Well, I was born and grew up in the US. Depending on the context, it could be either neutrally descriptive or value-laden. For example, when my uncle first served me a tequila, I shot it, rather than sipped it. His wife said something like, "hay que bruto gringo eres."
Due to proximity and history, it's often necessary or desirable to distinguish between someone of Mexican descent and someone is actually a Mexican.
And indeed, not doing so can sometimes be a political act, part of the perpetual foreigner stereotype that many Americans are eternally faced with. See, for example, this news story, which wrongly identifies the US-born child of a US-born father as "Mexican."
Destiny makes no sense to me.
"The prospective partners either date each other or in stricter communities they go to a 'bashow'"
There is more on the Wikipedia article on Shidduch.
205, 206: That's got to be it -- I didn't know the word at all, but was going to suggest something like that from context.
Is it too late to complain about the complaints of the encoupled? The one that bothered me until I stopped caring about being bothered by it is "Well, I don't have a social life" - except for all of the things they do with their partner/family, of course.
Obligatory distinction: I don't mean people whose partners are, genuinely, a drag who never go anywhere, or people who are in one of those relationships where their partner is opposed to their having a social life. Distinctions made abovethread also apply.
Yes! Thank you!
I could swear I'd googled that. I've a lot to google.
True, fa, and it's one of the things that I tired of when dating someone in an open couple. She would talk about my freedom and how happy that must be, or about how much she needed me, or whatever, and while I believe that's what she was feeling, she has not been single since she was 15. She has always had a primary partner, and has been married for eight years. Her needs were very different from mine, and her understanding of my life was a sort of fantasy about something she'd never done. I love her dearly, but I felt like she couldn't really understand how different it was for me to be with her from what it was for her to be with me. She could play quite fearlessly because she always had a husband-net under her. I don't think married people always realize just how much privilege that is.
Obligatory distinction: I don't mean people whose partners are, genuinely, a drag who never go anywhere, or people who are in one of those relationships where their partner is opposed to their having a social life. Distinctions made abovethread also apply.
a) is totally the case here
but b) is totally untrue, she is very active, out and about with buds 5-6 times a week, 3-4 hours at a time
c) it works because she needs a safe and quiet place sometimes
That could be a post
addendum to 211:safe quiet, with a lot of space, but yet not alone, if there is a humongous spider or a funny email
or anaphylactic shock
The cares and disquietudes of the marriage state, quoth Mrs. Wadman, are very great. I suppose so--said my uncle Toby: and therefore when a person, continued Mrs. Wadman, is so much at his ease as you are--so happy, captain Shandy, in yourself, your friends and your amusements--I wonder, what reasons can incline you to the state--
a humongous spider or a funny email or anaphylactic shock
About the Hispanic women turning down raises: there could be another explanation, besides the husband's ego, which is that the woman thinks that if she starts earning enough to support the family by herself, her husband will quit his job and just loaf around. It's not even that unreasonable, since already she might be earning more per hour than he is. Although I would guess that is just general f---ed-up-ness, and not correlated with being Hispanic.
Canada should become part of the United States and Mexico could be promoted to Canada.
Well, I can't speak for Mexico, of course, but having just returned from that great, uninhabited wilderness to the north, I can make bold to speak for some 33 million of my fellow citizens. Canadians have no desire whatsoever to become residents of a 51st state: they're afraid of the gun nuts and the Christianists and the lack of sensible bank regulations; and they are, moreover, opposed to a capitulation to Manifest Destiny on principle. Many of them are still at least tacitly loyal to the Crown, though they'll of course scoff at the pomp and pageantry of Jubilees and royal weddings and etc, and talk of "modernization" and "relevance" and so on. Doesn't matter how often, or how loudly, you say: 'But you're just like us! Shouldn't you finally realize that, since we are the world, you who belong to our world must therefore be us?' They're not buying it; no, not even with the Honourable Stephen ('I'm honoured to serve as a middle manager for a branch plant of the US economy') Harper as Prime Minister. Also, they now realize that they have oil and freshwater lakes (not to mention cedar shakes and shingles), and are even getting a bit arrogant about their natural resources. They won't give up universal healthcare without a military takeover (and I'm sorry, but Obamacare is not universal healthcare, it's just more corporate, profit-maximizing health insurance, now [or from 2014 maybe?] given an even freer rein, because now [or from 2014?] officially supported and endorsed by the US federal govt as some sort of inevitable national norm).
On married or single, I really like the phrase "the smug marrieds" (from the Diary of Bridget Jones, I think? and yes, Renee Zellwegger is beyond annoying, but that book was a fun read).
217: You realize, of course, that you're responding to someone who posts almost nothing but facetious quips.
218: I do, yes. But, you know: welcome to unfogged!
But you're just like us!
...except with fewer handguns.
Canadians
God, they're not still pretending that there's a Canada, are they?
221. ...says the guy whose country was legally eliminated in 1536.
Now, don't say that. Wales is still a country. It has an assembly.
You know who else has assemblies? Primary schools.
Exsqueeze me? The Act of Union Between England and Wales proves that Wales has existed - it occasionally gets conquered, like France, but that is the sort of thing that happens to real countries sometimes. Wales is a proper place, not some absurd liberal myth like Canada.
The Act of Union Between England and Wales proves that Wales has existed
"has provably existed" isn't the same as "exists". The Roman Empire has provably existed. Queen Anne has provably existed.
Canada, on the other hand ...
I mean come on. Even if you're prepared to swallow the fact that every single one of them has an American accent and acts like an American in every single way apart from that maple leaf sticker on their rucksacks, that stuff about "playing hockey on ice" ought to have given the game away.
Don't be so gullible. They're just left-wing Americans who were sufficiently embarrassed in the Reagan years to start pretending that there was a different country, when travelling overseas. Do you not find it even a little bit suspicious that there are no references at all to "Canada" in any primary sources, official or otherwise, dated earlier than 1981?
Sorry, a minor error above:
They're just left-wing Americans who were sufficiently embarrassed in the Reagan years to start pretending that there was a different country
shouldn't forget to mention the small minority who are just French people pretending to be American.
I thought we settled this last week? Wales is the hilly western bit of Shropshire: the last bits were absorbed when the Flintshire exclaves were abolished during the big county reorganisation in 1974.
When Shropshire was renamed "Salop", but we needn't speak of that now.
BOLLOCKS TO YOUR "SHROPSHIRE"!!!!!
In the village school I went to as a child, five miles outside Shrewsbury, every second kid was a Jones, Williams, Lloyd, Davies, Hughes, Pugh, Owen, Rees and so on: mostly their parents worked on farms, a handful owned farms. How many thought of themselves as Welsh? My guess is nearly none, surnames notwithstanding. I remember my dad talking about the Free Wales Army -- they burned a few English-owned holiday homes now and then -- but he always said it was mainly active in North Wales, not the bit near us. Where "near" means 45 minutes drive, rather than 90 minutes.
It's strange growing up in an extremely peaceful rural backwater with so many ancient signs of war and invasion hidden just under the surface: a castle in the town -- albeit a rather crap castle -- and a suburb called Battle, complete with fields full of old bones.
So this "Wales" is a country full of people who apparently all speak English and have English names; it doesn't have its own government, or its own laws, or anything along those lines; and we're still supposed to believe it's a country rather than some sort of hypertrophied Shropshire? At least the Canadians have a flag on their bergens.
Look, what possible advantage is there in pretending to be Welsh? Why would anyone feel the need to invent a crappy little princedom, famous for bestiality and pollution, with basically no good bands, a rugby team that always loses and as you correctly note, which has been conquered since the sixteenth century?
Whereas "Canada" ...
"oh yes, there's this special sport called 'ice hockey' and we're world champions at it actually, and we're just as rich as Americans but we have a proper healthcare system and oh yes, we've got oilfields. And all these indie bands come from there, and half the Hollywood stars are actually Canadian and we're really multicultural and ..."
This isn't a country. It's a teenage kid's fantasy of a country. It's like a Dungeons & Dragons character for kids who went to Mock UN Camp.
MASSIVE CLUE: In America, the phrase "A girlfriend in Canada" is slang for "A ficitious girlfriend".
Some of them don't even bother trying, like JK Galbraith the "Canadian" economist who actually spent five years as the US Ambassador to India. Yeah, way to be "Canadian", JKG. I seem to remember that Mark Steyn started his career claiming to be "Canadian" too.
217: I think my BF's father would like Canada to become part of the U.S. although he likes their health care better. He always said such wonderful things about the U.S. healthcare system from his time here in the 80's, but he had no problems with neurosurgery in Canada, so he's happy.
He has been struggling to schedule a follow-up MRI, but he realizes now that the scheduling difficulties would be no better in the U.S.
They are now using the MRIs 24 hours a day in Ontario. This seems sensible enough to me (though the shift work would kill me), but if you are scheduled for one at 11PM, and you live 2 hours away, they ought to give you a bed to sleep in or something.
223: Scottish devolution made sense to me. The more limited Welsh one just seemed like an extra layer of bureaucracy without a lot of power in any area that people cared about.
MASSIVE CLUE: In America, the phrase "A girlfriend in Canada" is slang for "A ficitious girlfriend".
Based on the British analogue to this example, there's no such place as ... Sweden? Portugal?
No, Sweden's the real one. It's "Denmark" (and to a lesser extent Holland) that's basically "Canada" for Germans.
No, in Britain, if you don't have a girlfriend you just stare at puddles in the bus station. And then form a band, which may solve your problem. Although then, 20 years down the line, you end up turning into a horrible working-class-Tory type and giving interviews about the kids of today.
And if they really did play ice hockey, you'd think a team from there could actually win the freaking championship from time-to-time.
It's daft, isn't it? You can't play hockey on ice. They might as well have said they were all fans of swamp cricket, or aquatic tennis or ski-rugby or something. It's just a transparent attempt at an answer to the question "oh yeah? If there's a country called Canada, how come it doesn't have a soccer team?"
"oh yes, there's this special sport called 'ice hockey'
Of course, no true Canadian, or "Canadian," would say ice hockey.
an extra layer of bureaucracy without a lot of power in any area that people cared about.
It took a lot of effort to interpret "area people cared about" as, say, "tax policy" rather than "England".
240: Of course, since actually mentioning "ice" is totally redundant in any Canadian context.
I would pay good money to watch ski-rugby. Or to avoid playing it.
"A wealthy ruffians game played by idiots."
Ski rugby would, of course, be played on an immense pitch on cross-country skis. It'd basically be a Scottish private school equivalent of the biathlon.
The other nice I was watching tv and they had a show where a helpful, omni-competent contractor came around and fixed peoples' houses apparently out of his own good will. It turned out he was Canadian and I shouldn't have been surprised.
The other nice: it's quite nasty.
It's just a transparent attempt at an answer to the question "oh yeah? If there's a country called Canada, how come it doesn't have a soccer team?"
They might not have scored any goals at the 1986 World Cup, but they were still there. A lot more recently than your so-called nation.
246: Was he teamed up with a stylish English, or "English," woman who helps people fix up their houses to look "smart"?
250: No. He was named "Mike" and had an aversion to sleeves.
Of course Canada and Wales exist. If they didn't, there'd be a website about it.
This isn't a country. It's a teenage kid's fantasy of a country. It's like a Dungeons & Dragons character for kids who went to Mock UN Camp.
232 is awesome.
Even if Canadians did exist, everything would be their fault.
Look, what possible advantage is there in pretending to be Welsh?
Maybe if you're sick and tired of having so many damn vowels in your language?
255: Also, much great license to use the c-word.
The only context that Wales ever appears in the US is in the confines of fantasy novels, which suggests that Wales fits the "invented by kid who plays Dungeons and Dragons" theory better than Canada.
I would pay good money to watch ski-rugby. Or to avoid playing it.
One of the Kennedys died playing ski-football, didn't they? Which suggests that rugby could only be more entertaining.
258: But that would mean that the interpretation of which countries are actually "invented by kid who plays Dungeons and Dragons" is geographically-relative to the observer which starts us down a real slippery slope.
which starts us down a real slippery slope.
Try not to disturb the rugby game.
The only context that Wales ever appears in the US is in the confines of fantasy novels
Yes, I know that Americans are incredibly ignorant. That's the whole purpose of "Canada".
There's simply no fooling me on this one. I've been to Toronto and Montreal, several times. I've seen all the signs saying "Welcome to Canada", the way they try to put the queen's head on the American coins, the way they add "Canada" after "McDonald's" and everything. I've even been down to the circus in Toronto to watch a game of "Canadian Football" (guess what? it is exactly the same game as American football!). It just didn't convince me.
The only context that Wales ever appears in the US is in the confines of fantasy novels....
OH IT'S ON NOW.
guess what? it is exactly the same game as American football!
Three downs.
Moby, was that "Holmes on Homes?" It's hugely popular. He makes it right, right? They also did a series where he built a new hurricane-resistant house for a Katrina survivor. He met with Brad Pitt then who actually has a "Make It Right" foundation.
I've been to Toronto and Montreal, several times.... It just didn't convince me.
You're ignoring the obvious and devastating critique of your theory that Canada doesn't exist. When you were in Montreal, you were surrounded by a city full of people, who by your hypothesis were Americans, but who nonetheless were fluent in a language other than English (the fact that they were dressed as badly as Americans rules out the possibility that they were actually French). Given "that Americans are incredibly ignorant," this is a logical impossibility. Q.E.D. Canada exists.
I'm not sure about Wales -- I have relatives who claim to be from there, but I wouldn't trust them about anything else, either.
My knowledge of Wales is limited to what I learned watching The Prisoner. And the thought/hope of finding a tribe of Welsh-speaking Indians in the Northern Rockies. (L&C couldn't find them: they must be Canadian.)
When you were in Montreal, you were surrounded by a city full of people, who by your hypothesis were Americans, but who nonetheless were fluent in a language other than English
No, those are French people pretending to be American.
263: I know a woman from New Brunswick who doesn't care for hockey and loves football [American-style] and had never heard of Canadian football.
I saw a TV show about Bryn Terfel, in the course of which he visited his aged parents in this "Wales" of which people speak, which, to judge by their accents, is located in the Schleswig-Holstein region of the Boer Republic.
272: Rebranding, like "Clinton" for Hell's Kitchen.
There was an Upper Canada? And it was lower?
I've been to Toronto and Montreal, several times.
Well, I've been to "Wales" several times. In fact I've done such counter-stereotypical things as eating 3 rosette dinners there on more than one occasion. However...
Last time I was there it was 24 hours before I heard a Welsh accent and 48 before I heard anybody speaking Welsh. I conclude that they have a rather small staff of actors to impersonate the natives for the benefit of the tourists and that during the summer there aren't enough to go round.
I went to the London Welsh Centre once. I didn't go on purpose, but my friend and I heard singing upstairs, and went inside, late at night. The Welshmen spotted us from the second floor and demanded we spend the evening drinking cider with them and promising to consider any serious proposal from their sons, who are right over there, aren't they fine and tall?
It was a pretty fun evening. It didn't convince me Wales is real, but people definitely believe in it.
#277: No, that's just the local accent. "I love men" is what they were saying.
When I read the part about the Latino/a/Chicano/a/Hispanic/Mexican/Guatemalan/Puerto Rican/a stuff, I was scoffing and thinking it's pointlessly stupidly complicated. But then we got to the Canadian part and you know, I have to admit that I probably appear just as incomprehensible to the average French-speaker.
I probably appear just as incomprehensible to the average French-speaker.
Talk louder. Wave your arms a bit. "Where my Merovingians at?"
Has anyone tried speaking Mandan in Wales?
It's really not stupidly complicated if you're interacting with someone closely enough to bother finding out where they're from. I very rarely have occasion to need to refer to all foreign-born Spanish speaking people of all nationalities and ethnic backgrounds, and even less need to also include American-born people who are descended from foreign-born Spanish speakers, whether they themselves speak Spanish or not. Luckily, Spanish speakers tend to be pretty into telling you where they're from.
No, those are French people pretending to be American.
And voluntarily eating greasy chips with gravy and melted processed cheese? I cannot conceive of any Frenchman taking his pretence to such a hideous extreme.
Wait I forgot if I already told Unfogged this or not: the Welsh MOUNTAINS are not real, they are just a huge pasteboard sham constructed on an otherwise dismal fen-scape. I know this is true because a man I once met in a pub was reading a book about it.
283 is not meant to sound pissy. Worrying about what to call racial groups is sort of a non-problem that has seemed at times like a problem. (On reflection, it seems like something my mom would call and ask about. "What word is the polite term to use if I'm referring to all the erm ethnically erm Spani... Lati... Mexi... you know?") At some point I realized that the thing I usually actually needed to identify about someone was their language use pattern and maybe their claim of national origin.
I cannot conceive of any Frenchman taking his pretence to such a hideous extreme.
It's been a while since fruit has been hung so low. Or, to quote de Gaulle: "How can anyone govern a nation that has two hundred and forty-six different kinds of cheese?"
285: I dimly recall you mentioning that; any progress on identifying/ obtaining the book?
Ive decided to start identifying people by their state. "My friend, AWB, the New Yorker," not "My friend, AWB, the single girl."
http://www.badarchaeology.net/controversial/madoc_search.php
Low down on the Welsh Indians.
290: those are virtually synonyms, if the mass media is anything to go by.
None whatever. I did just google "Are the Welsh mountains real", but just got lots of obviously dodgy spin from the Welsh Tourist Board.
the single girl
Better than "the crazy bitch." I'll take it. Sadly, I am a New Yorker for 30 days more.
"Canadian Football" (guess what? it is exactly the same game as American football!)
There are a few important differences.
It's really not stupidly complicated if you're interacting with someone closely enough to bother finding out where they're from.
I have a colleague who takes offense when people ask where he's from, though. He answers "Florida." Then they say "Before that?" and he says "Maryland."
It kind of drives me nuts. He clearly learned English as an adult, so he's not asserting that he was born here. But I didn't find out where he was from for about two years. (It's Syria. Over the summer he's put a bunch of Syrian news articles on his office door, so now it's obvious.)
296: My mom, who was born in Israel, is like that with many people, when she's in the U.S. Sometimes, it seems kind of rude to me, but I suppose she has a right to give out as much information about herself as she wants.
285: The Englishman who went up a hill and came down an insufferable git. (not you tierce.)
Google has clearly fixed it so that searches like "Is Wales just made up then?" return nothing. THIS WILL NOT STAND.
I do tend to find that people who are not from the Americas and Western Europe are much less likely to tell you what country they're from. My Ser/bian roommate says you really wouldn't believe the levels of ignorance and uncomfortable "educate me about your mysterious land!" conversations that tend to follow these revelations. And then, even if they knew you were foreign before, they'll start overemphasizing words and nodding and smiling at you like a dog. If someone does know something, like about the war, they act like they get to tell her what it was about, or they at least want to talk about it, and let's just say it's not a fun set of memories to bring up every time you meet someone new.
It's true, I am a fairly sufferable git.
I never asked where he was from, and my best guess is that I picked up on some vibe that he didn't want me to ask, and then eventually we had a conversation where he told me the various questions other people ask, (some rude, some not), and how he handles them.
Anyway, I put "Where did you grow up?" on a list of murky questions that might offend someone, where you have to read how forthcoming they are before you ask it.
302: People are peasants. Not intentionally, but meeting people with some nature of Otherness is a cosmopolitan skill, and lots of people don't have it yet.
281: heh, but I meant the identity issues stuff. Because my last name is hyphenated, and the French part of it is rare in France but in Canada it is the Quebecois equivalent of "Smith" or "Jones" or maybe "Reagan", but I speak French with a mix of an American and French accent, but definitely not Quebecois.
296: A friend of mine is ethnically Bangladeshi, I think, but was born and grew up in the Midwest. I'm told that he gets asked "where are you from?" a lot, and I think his canned response is something like "Wait, are you asking where are you from, or why are you brown?"
I guess we have to eliminate the following questions from conversations:
Where did you grow up?
What do you do for a living?
Married?
Got kids?
Do you use a fake name on blogs?
And just stick with :
"My war eagle will destroy your war eagle, ya c__t!"
I just ask them why they talk so funny.
I include myself in 305, with maybe a touch of learned awareness that I should stick to strict good manners on meeting anyone from east of the Sierras.
Yeah, I actually really like knowing where people are from, too. About 90% of my students at Public School were either foreign-born or first-year USians, so I thought it was really neat, and I didn't understand why, while this Colombian girl really wants to tell me about her immigrant experience and the transformation of her identity and self-perception, this Middle Eastern guy won't even tell me what country he's from. And it doesn't matter whether you know nothing or a lot about that place; there are all these irritating things to remind you that you don't belong here.
When my roommate has friends from other countries over, they sort of just let each other talk about things they remember, or miss, or didn't like, but without the implicit judgment of "but things must be better for you here in the US!" or "do they have things that are better than in the US?"
I know I am irritating this way. I ask Chinese students what province they're from when, let's be honest, I can only place a couple of them on a map. I know a little bit about some West African countries. My Middle East geography is pretty good, but I have only a smidge of actual knowledge of what life in various places might be like. So why do I care so much about asking? In my case, I think it's a combination of narcissism (I want to know! Tell me!) and jealousy (because I am white and boring and have not traveled much).
I should stick to strict good manners on meeting anyone from east of the Sierras.
Everybody's from east of the Sierras if you go far enough.
I have a colleague who takes offense when people ask where he's from, though. He answers "Florida." Then they say "Before that?""Florida? Jesus H. Christ, only steers and queers come from Florida, and I don't see any horns. How tall are you boy? Five foot nine? I didn't know they stacked shit that high."
307: Or the ever-popular "How many toddlers do you think you could beat in a fight?" "Would you eat a Bentley Continental GT full of mascarpone for $5?"
My Ser/bian roommate says you really wouldn't believe the levels of ignorance and uncomfortable "educate me about your mysterious land!" conversations that tend to follow these revelations.
I'd believe it, although there's nothing distinctly USian about such reactions to Others.
313: Do I have to eat the car itself, or just the mascarpone it's filled with?
315: People are wagering on this. What do you think?
316: I imagine the crunchy exterior would contrast nicely with the creamy center.
266: Thanks. I was blanking on the name but that was it.
317: Do you mind if I steal that for the pilot of Who Wants to Eat an Arts & Crafts Bungalow Filled With Lemon Curd?
314: Oh, totally. Last summer, I spent 4 weeks traveling around Europe explaining the US to people. "Oh, you're American! We so admire those brave rebels who started your Civil War!" "Oh, you're American! Explain to us why the US doesn't sign treaties like a proper European country!" "Oh, you're American! You've probably never eaten at a sit-down restaurant before. See, the waiters come over and..."
314: It is a shame -- one of my favorite types of conversation is finding out something the person I'm talking to knows more about than I do, and enticing them into lecturing me about it at great length. And for someone who's from another country, it's a natural topic -- I'm ignorant, they know stuff, I could listen for hours. But it is hard to do without offending.
321: Ugh, I know. The roommate's standard response to questions about what it felt like being there during the war is a dry, "Oh, it felt great" with an implied "fuck you." But sometimes I can get her to talk about the hyperinflation. (a) That shit is craaaaaaaazy. (b) The coping mechanisms people construct to deal with life under those conditions are intense. (c) It changes your relationship to and understanding of money and property for all time.
"Oh, you're American! You've probably never eaten at a sit-down restaurant before. See, the waiters come over and..."
They what now? My stereotypes are mostly the other way, that Americans eat out a lot more and the portions are enormous. Modulo that in New York and other big cities people instead eat takeout of one of a hundred varieties.
323: That was in rural Germany. I think the problem was that I was trying to ask what the tipping percent is, and if I needed to request the bill or something, and some asshole I was in the academic program with thought I'd only ever been to McDonald's probably.
323: The stereotype wouldn't be that we don't eat out, but that we don't eat in restaurants with cutlery and napkins, rather than where we can pick the food up in our paws and ram it down our gullets without chewing.
It's kind of fun to spin yarns for Europeans about one's childhood in New England and all the gunfights and cattle rustling that we had to put up with before Marshall Earp and his brothers came to town.
Canada is a nation of white Indians descended from Prince Madoc, who by the way discovered America before Columbus and had at least 80 goddamn dicks.
On preview, pwn'd by Carp.
326: My grandmother had French friends (who may have been related to a semi-important general) who came to Boston--not the place with the blackmarket vodka--and were shocked that there weren't American Indians running around with feathers in their hair. I think that this was in the early 70's.
There's a New Brunswick?
There's one in New Jersey, too. Just ask teo.
327: I'M NOT LOOKING FOR A NEW ENGLAND.
296
I have a colleague who takes offense when people ask where he's from, though. He answers "Florida." Then they say "Before that?" and he says "Maryland."
It kind of drives me nuts. He clearly learned English as an adult, so he's not asserting that he was born here. But I didn't find out where he was from for about two years. (It's Syria. Over the summer he's put a bunch of Syrian news articles on his office door, so now it's obvious.)
As you may have noticed there is a certain amount of prejudice against Arabs so perhaps he feels like revealing he is an Arab like you feel about revealing you are an atheist.
I've just spent a couple of days in Idaho, hanging around with Idahoans, and was quite surprised to realize how poorly I understand/know the place. That I've been mispronouncing the name of the state capital for 50 years was just the tip of the iceberg.
335: Just met a guy at work who grew up in Salmon. The Montana part of Idaho.
FTR, it's not boy-zee. Try Boy-Sea.
I pronounce appropriately for a non-native.
You probably pronounce the second syllable of Nevada as if it rhymes with rod, and not like rad. Which is lame.
No, that one I do--just as if I had pretensions of authenticity.
Boise, setting of the well-known film The Bologna Dames of Boise, is pronounced "Bwahz".
... pronounced "Bwahz".
OT:
Because TV is so simultaneously personal (it exists inside your home) and so utterly universal (it exists inside everyone's home), people care about it with an atypical brand of conversational ferocity -- they take it more personally than other forms of art, and they immediately feel comfortable speaking from a position of expertise. They develop loyalties to certain characters and feel offended when those loyalties are disparaged. This is what makes arguing about these particular shows so intense and satisfying -- even though most serious TV watchers enjoy (or at least appreciate) all four, they habitually feel a greater internal obligation to advocate the superiority of whichever title they love most. As a result, you hear people making damning, melodramatic criticisms of TV shows they ostensibly like. You hear a lot of sentences that begin, "I love Mad Men, but ..." or "The first two seasons of The Sopranos were great, but ..." And whatever follows that "but" is inevitably crazy and hyperspecific. This is especially true among people who prefer The Wire. There's never been a more obstinate fan base than that of The Wire; it's a secular cult that refuses to accept any argument that doesn't classify The Wire as the greatest artistic endeavor in television history. It's almost as if these people secretly believe this show actually happened, and that criticizing the storyline is like mocking an episode of Frontline. This was not a documentary about Baltimore: Wallace is not alive and playing high school football in Texas, Stringer Bell was not reincarnated as a Pennsylvania paper salesman, and you are not qualified to lecture on inner-city education because you own Season 4 on DVD. The citizens on that show were nonexistent composites, and the events you watched did not occur. As a society, we must learn to accept this.
342: I've never seen a whole episode of any of those shows.
I was hoping the story in 278 would continue to follow the plot of "The Gourmet Club".
Also, re: 342, I will cut him for omitting season 1 of Veronica Mars from his list.
"I love Veronica Mars, but it's not as good as Buffy the Vampire Slayer."
343: Racist.
346: Sexist.
347: Classist.
Just finished The Wire, and, though late to the game, have become a member of its obstinate fan base.
Do Mad Men and Breaking Bad live up to their billing?
||
This is great. Conor Friedersdorf goes to a debut showing of the Sarah Palin film and is basically the only person there:
Shortly before the end of the film, a young couple entered, walked to the back row, started making out, then interrupted their session and left (spoiler alert) as Andrew Breitbart, who made one of several guest appearances, started talking about eunuchs.I think that unless she actually runs for President now she is quite diminished as Bachmann as somewhat stolen her shtick (not as good at the showmanship, but slightly more "competent"). Tough call in the Palin camp; which maximizes revenue? I half expect to see her declare now, although not yet convinced.
351: The path is narrow indeed between "building your brand" and "breeding contempt."
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Speaking of computers, this recap of decoding Stuxnet (Iranian-centrifuge sabotaging malware) is worth a read if you have any interest in the subject at all. Some of its assertions will certainly annoy some, but if that is not you, give it a read.
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I guess there is some software that you can use to write short recaps on the internet of interesting stuff that you read. Anyone here know anything about that?
Could the same software be used to make available complaints about the government NetFlix Michael Bay the Patriarchy images of baby animals, knitting works-in-progress and sports scores? Because you'd really have something there.
There's this, for the iPhoned. No idea if it's any good.
I keep thinking I should check out Grantland, but then some Klosterman piece always gets in the way. It doesn't matter which piece.
357: (i) Don't bother.
(ii) Klosterman bothers you, rather than Simmons, Gladwell or one of the midgets? I think Klosterman may be the only one to escape Grantland with some slip of reputation.
349: Minority opinion, but Mad Men is a frustrating mix of variable acting, variable writing tending toward the obvious, and exquisite furniture. I dropped it after two seasons, and this despite the lead actor being probably the most handsome man on television.
There was something by someone about LA Noire, or something like that. Otherwise, I keep seeing links to Klosterman pieces and no one else. For all I know, his stuff is all over the front page, which I've never been to. But overall, I see very few links to Grantland at all in the course of my everyday browsing.
I forgot about Simmons being there too. I'm starting to remember why I've always only meant to check out Grantland.
and this despite the lead actor being probably the most handsome man on television
Another minority opinion: he looks suave and handsome and etc. as Don Draper, but is also capable of looking kind of goofy (see, e.g., 30 Rock). I love Mad Men for the clothing and the furniture, but am sometimes irked by the enormous condescension of posterity that characterizes its depiction of the (very, very recent) past, and also by its ridiculous linguistic anachronisms (not to pick on the actress who plays Betty, because [yet another minority opinion?] I think she's great, but sometimes she does not sound one little bit like a circa-1960 graduate of Bryn Mawr).