Can somebody explain why they demand eggs that are unwashed? Is it because commercial egg washery uses bad chemicals and they want to wash them with 7th Generation dish soap or it is because they want dirty eggs?
Not washing eggs seems like pointlessly taking things to an extreme. Why not just drop the food on the floor and eat it from there while you're at it?
As for the raid, the story is reminiscent of Chew
I'm not at all happy they got arrested, but I'm going to pass on the raw millk.
I read that as "we are aware that the eggs are not washed and might be gross", more like a waiver. It's not a dazzlingly well-written manifesto- the syntax of the "I demand" part doesn't go with most of the demands.
4: That makes sense.
Also, one of the members is named Buttery.
Anyway, my sister, now in vet school, used to work on a chicken farm and she claims that washing eggs destroys some sort of natural antibacterial covering, so as long as you are handling them correctly (not getting bits of shell in the eggs), it's safer to have unwashed eggs than washed. I have no additional sourcing for this claim so she might have made it up.
(not getting bits of shell in the eggs)
I think that if you crack the eggs on something flat, you are less likely to get the shell in the egg. You're not supposed to crack the egg on the edge of the bowl.
You're not supposed to crack the egg on the edge of the bowl.
Maybe. But do you actually know anybody who's so far up themselves that they don't?
I think food safety laws are one of the markers of civilisation, but this kind of shit only serves to discredit the agency, which, god knows, isn't what they need at the moment.
The (DFH?) internet seems to think that washing eggs makes the shells porous and more vulnerable to bacteria than leaving them unwashed until right before use.
No comment on the bail amount, but "menace" is the proper word for widescale distribution of unpasteurized milk. Despite the cliche it is proper here to get off of my lawn, kid think of the children.
9: He's either a great expert on eggs or the most deadpan troller I've seen in ages. Either way, hats off.
Anyway the part of the article I found the most awesome was how the little hippie co-op hadn't made anybody sick, but got all arrested, while the giant corporation made lots of people sick, but didn't get arrested at all. All in the midst of budget crises galore, and including long-term undercover co-op members.
I like raw milk. And raw cheese. And eggnog made from raw milk and fresh eggs.
My mom makes me soft-boiled eggs!
10 - ? It doesn't seem like it was widespread at all, and nobody was trying to sneak anything into your kids' milk cartons.
Would the co-op be allowed to consume raw milk and unwashed eggs if it reorganized as a church?
"menace" is the proper word for widescale distribution of unpasteurized milk
True indeed. But what we see here is small scale distribution of unpasteurised milk among a group of people who've signed disclaimers.
If I were allowed an analogy (heaven forfend), I would suggest that assault and battery ought to be illegal, but consensual BDSM is just fine.
14: Only poor kids have milk cartons now. The cool kids have the box with the straw you jab through the foil.
If corporations we're leftist they'd get arrested too.
How does this affect the scheduling of the inevitable war between vegan hippies and back-to-the-land-and-kill-chickens hippies? Because I have a couple of things to do this week, but will make time to help set up the bleachers.
14: Not my children, but someone's children. Milk being, you know, milk, I suspect that a fair amount found its way to the insides of children who had not signed the manifesto themselves. Hippies sometimes do make babies, and even feed them.
"Let's get the government out of the regulation of food safety," while a tenet of tea party-ism, is a bit discordant on this site.
New-England-centric Robert Frost on prayer and food handling:
"Teach those Asians mass production?
Teach your grandmother egg suction."
from An Importer
Isn't there a concern that people infected due to (consensually) drinking raw milk can be both asymptomatic and infectious to non-consenting third parties? um, TB or brucellosis or something?
21 et al -- I can confirm that a lot of this raw milk (indeed, I think from this very place but am not totally sure) is going to little kids.
Who's saying, "Let's get the government out of the regulation of food safety" on this site?
At one point was it decided that milk cartons did not create enough waste for the landfill, and needed to be replaced with foil pouches or adulterated with plastic spouts?
Just to clarify 21, my ex is into raw milk and so my kid drinks it. It freaks me out a bit but I haven't been too worried about it and there's not really anything I can do about it. I think big dairy is pretty evil and pasteurized milk sucks but then again I'm glad we're not just letting a bunch of hippies avoid the food safety laws because they seem hippie-ish.*
*there's a substantial overlap here with the "no vaccine" crowd.
The government has no business regulating food safety! People can take care of themselves!
and there's not really anything I can do about it
California family courts have gone round the bend or what?
No, don't eat me! Bad horsie! Bad!
29 -- well, yes, but I really mean not without prompting a fight that seems totally not worth it.
I was willing to accept that Obama was a Muslim and very likely not a US citizen. But if he's also a Vegan, I'm voting for the Mormon or the Christian, I think, as those guys eat meat. Or maybe I can convince Halford to mount a third-party (Paleo Party?) challenge.
Pasteurized milk, like vaccination, can divide the science-minded public health left from the hippie-be-free-and natural left. This is a difficult one for me, because I belong to the science-minded public health left, but travel in circles dominated by the hippie-be-free-and-natural left. I don't make nearly as much of an argument about pasteurization as I do about vaccines, though.
I read that as "we are aware that the eggs are not washed and might be gross", more like a waiver.
Well, yeah. So just wash the eggs (notwithstanding the suggestions elsewhere in the thread).
I don't make nearly as much of an argument about pasteurization as I do about vaccines, though.
This is very likely because you're not insane familiar with the relative scientific merits of each argument, isn't it?
I don't really believe the hippie-be-free-and-natural claims about how raw milk is so healthy and I should drink it because it will cure all my ailments. But I do like the way it tastes, so if somebody else goes to the trouble of getting some, I'll totally drink the eggnog they make out of it. For science.
34- I think they do wash the eggs, before they use them, they just don't want/need the eggs to be washed before purchase*.
*or whatever it is. Exchange? Donation? Whatever.
Which is to say, raw milk, if sourced properly, is at worst only a danger to a small group of people -- and quite likely not even that -- but choosing not to vaccinate one's children is both more dangerous and also a matter of broader public health concern.
I'm surprised anyone can get their kids to drink non-pasteurized milk. We sometimes by milk that is pasteurized but no homogenized, and the kids refuse it because it has "chunks."
I'm frustrated here because the hippie-free-and-natural left has so much more buying power than the be-nicer-to-cows-and-chickens left that they totally dominate how non-industrial milk and eggs are marketed, so it is hard to judge what you are really buying.
How does the risk of properly handled unpasteurized milk compare to the risk of properly handled sushi? Because while I don't have statistics, based on my personal anecdotal references, I'd guess that "no one has gotten sick in the last 12 years" is not something that I think could be said of any busy sushi restaurant. Yet, we allow that, with a little FDA disclaimer on the menu about the dangers of comsuming raw or undercooked fish.
I've even seen people feeding sushi to their children.
I've even seen people feeding sushi to their children.
We cut out the middleman by buying really old thermometers, breaking them, and feeding our kids straight quicksilver. Come to think of it, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to learn that this is an urple family recipe.
That's not mercury in the fish. It's ocean silver and I'm going to be rich.
Regarding parental food decisions, a FB acquaintance reported yesterday having seen a mother give her ~5yo three Red Bull cans in a row, a story which I found very hard to believe, if only because I can't imagine why a parent would set him or herself up for misery like that.
I can't tell if 42 was just a senseless joke, or if it was meant to be some sort of sarcastic response. If I take it seriously as a response to 41, I'd interpret it as saying that the government should be arresting people who sell sushi, just like they arrest people who sell unpasteurized milk. Or, at least, arresting people who allow children to consume it. Or something. Could you clarify?
Maybe the mom was being frugal and didn't want to share her cocaine.
Could you clarify?
Given your tone, no.
44: Maybe she shares custody and was about to hand the kid over?
But in case your misinterpret that as well, I was just kidding around. Both times.
When I eat sushi, I've often wondered about the really soft green-fleshed fish that the put in some of the rolls. What kind of fish is that?
Is this going to be one of those "wait, is urple trolling us, or just being urple?" threads?
50: the idea of feeding children mercury directly from old thermometers? Yes. You don't?
I'm not offended that Von Wafer attempted to make a joke about this very serious topic, I'm just offended at the quality of the joke. And I was actually confused genuinely confused about whether the joke was just intended as pure (nonsubstantive) humor, or if it was intended as a humorous response to 41. Sometimes people do that.
55: I suggest we dig a pit and arm ourselves with broadswords.
Von Wafer's joke fails because the best source of mercury is obviously old barometers. Feeding your kids thermometers is penny-ante.
I didn't mean to be overly serious. Here's a picture of a clown, to help lighten the mood.
So the ever-so-rational markets are responding to worries that bonds are risky by dumping stocks and buying bonds? Some subset of investors, news media, and me is totally missing the point here, I think. Maybe all of the above.
the best source of mercury is obviously old barometers
Not true. If your children are conceived in the backseat of a Mercury, they're set for life.
Build your own clown. They bring joy to everyone.
You can also get the Mercury you need in Montreux.
Apparently, even pasteurized milk can have problems.
I suggest we dig a pit and arm ourselves with broadswords.
The pit seems to be a myth. The broadswords are real.
60: This is the greatest thing ever to have happened. I can't decide if its either a) unrelated, but the people who write the headlines are just really stupid, or b) investors are really stupid. I'm imagining that investors are like single-celled organisms, and when they receive a positive stimulus from their environment they buy stocks, while when they receive a negative stimulus they buy bonds. The S&P downgrade is a negative stimulus, so they react accordingly.
It's more likely that the market commentary is shitty, though.
Naw, Von Wafer is being regional. The best source for mercury here is from river fish, since we're still seeing mercury from gold mining being flushed into our rivers. My boss reports that up in the foothills, you can pan for mercury and bring it home in large lovely globules.
I had raw milk at the farmers' market a couple weeks ago. I expected it to taste more different than it did.
Daycare center on site of former mercury thermometer factory = lawyer's dream.
The best source for mercury is syfy.com.
33: I try to stay in vegan DFH left circles as much as possible. I think most of the people I know are more on the public health end (given that the anti-fluoridation campaigner we all know gets a lot of eye-rolling), but with vegan food, there's much less risk. Also, i never drink milk or eat eggs, despite not being vegan.
I'm imagining that investors are like single-celled organisms, and when they receive a positive stimulus from their environment they buy stocks, while when they receive a negative stimulus they buy bonds.
(A) I love this a lot, but (B) there could be a version of this where it makes sense. So, the S&P downgrade doesn't actually mean that the US is likely to literally default on its bonds in any meaningful way -- there's no sense in which bonds got riskier because S&P downgraded them. Nonetheless, the downgrade is an indication that really bad things are happening generally -- while it's a non-event in terms of accurately describing the riskiness of treasuries, it's a real event in terms of demonstrating the instability of the financial institutions we rely on. So that might be a sensible reason to flee equities into safer (whatever S&P says about them) bonds.
I don't know that that's a good strategy, but I can see it as something that might possibly be rational.
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Bring back flogging. Or get rid of idiotic sentences for minor offenses, three strikes laws, and prisons that do nothing to reform.
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I like the single-celled organism analogy comparison. But I wonder what fraction of trading is done by computer programs that essentially are such organisms, integrating stimuli mindlessly.
Speaking of crime & punishment, one of the things I find most interesting about the English press coverage of the Tottenham riots is that the early, eyewitness report by a BBC radio correspondent that the incident that actually set off the riot was a line of police severely beating a 16 year-old girl who had gone up to ask them where the justice was in this situation, has been completely elided from subsequent reports.
If flogging comes back as a substitute for imprisonment, I'd give it about 15 minutes before people start making political hay about calling for its use in addition to imprisonment. And of course, that would subsequently become the norm, because that's how you "get tough" on crime, and its not like its rich white kids who will be getting the bulk of the flogging.
74. Ah. Here too. I was talking to somebody about this just an hour or so ago and we agreed that there was obviously a lot of back story missing. That would probably set off a riot in the way that taking out a local Yardie wouldn't. Makes sense, but I still feel there's a lot of history still to emerge.
I'm imagining that investors are like single-celled organisms, and when they receive a positive stimulus from their environment they buy stocks, while when they receive a negative stimulus they buy bonds.
At a high enough level, this is pretty accurate, provided you substitute Treasuries for bonds. It's pretty much the reaction I expected, to be honest, although equities have sold off a little stronger than I though.
Listening to it again, it is confusing about who the fellow speaking is, maybe he's not a reporter. But he does seem like a fairly unbiased eyewitness.
Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcwUyZ68C0k&feature=youtu.be&a
Also, now it is coming out that the bullet lodged in the officer's radio was apparently police-issue, and the gun allegedly taken from the scene was found in the guy's sock.
The British must have the world's strongest sock elastic or really small guns.
The official reaction seems a little disproportionate, given that the FDA can't even issue mandatory recalls of contaminated industrially-produced food (like last week's ground turkey episode.)
That's different. You aren't actually supposed to eat ground turkey.
I was just about to say something like 82, but apparently the FDA got that authority earlier this year.
81: Eh, if it was one of those little .25 automatics, I think any reasonably new athletic sock would hold it against the leg pretty well.
85: You'd need to buy new socks every week.
83: You aren't actually supposed to eat ground turkey.
I only eat marine turkey. It's like Chicken of the Sea, but bigger.
81,85: You guys have the wrong idea.
As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.
If you put the gun in your sock, the bullets don't leave a mark.
89: Wasn't it Arthur Carlson who said that.
I'm here to brighten, tighten and enlighten your starlight hours.
Wild turkeys can fly. Domestic turkeys are too fat.
the incident that actually set off the riot was a line of police severely beating a 16 year-old girl who had gone up to ask them where the justice was in this situation thrown a stone at them.
FTFY.
Feeding Wild Turkey to a child is probably not a good idea.
93: Technically, in the U.S., all turkeys are domestic.
I guess my non hippie parents are lucky they didn't get imprisoned or something. My mom loved going to her grandfather's farm in the summer when she was a kid and wangled my dad into going along with keeping goats, chickens, ducks, geese, etc. Five kids and we all drank raw goat milk and ate unwashed eggs for years.
When you're a kid, making breakfast with a couple giant honking goose eggs is awesome.
91: Yep, here's Les's contribution from the parking lot:
"It's a helicopter, and it's coming this way. It's flying something behind it, I can't quite make it out, it's a large banner and it says, uh - Happy... Thaaaaanksss... giving! ... From ... W ... K ... R... P!! No parachutes yet. Can't be skydivers... I can't tell just yet what they are, but - Oh my God, Johnny, they're turkeys!! Johnny, can you get this? Oh, they're plunging to the earth right in front of our eyes! One just went through the windshield of a parked car! Oh, the humanity! The turkeys are hitting the ground like sacks of wet cement! Not since the Hindenburg tragedy has there been anything like this!"
97: all turkeys are domestic.
It's a special treaty like NAFTA.
Domestic, not domesticated. Lay-deez.
95: I've only been checking the BBC and Guardian, where are you seeing this report of her throwing a stone?
66: It just means the market thinks we're headed for another recession, because Congress can't (and doesn't really seem to want to) get its act together and fix things. Recessions affect stock returns long before they affect bond returns.
71 is right. Investors are being perfectly rational here. They are leaving the market that is driven by perception and rumor (stocks) and going to the market whose fundamentals are still sound (bonds).
The interesting thing here is that the media is too stupid/evil to cover the bond market response, even though it has lovely dog-bites-man aspect to it. I'm going with evil as the explanation here. Editors have decided to lead with the stock market response because it makes Obama look bad.
I find that Wild Turkey and Red Bull is the perfect cocktail for my 5 year old.
IOW it matters how safe bonds are relative to the next-best alternative, not how safe they are absolutely.
From the Daily Mail:
The violence last night started soon after a crowd of about 120 had begun to gather at the High Road, near Tottenham Hotspur's football ground, from about 5.30pm.One resident, Laurence Bailey, told the Guardian that the violence started after a 16-year-old girl 'threw something, maybe a stone, at the original riot police line'.
He added that this was met with a furious response, with around 15 riot officers pounding her with shields.
This description of events was corroborated by another local who spoke to BBC News. He said that the girl was 'set upon' by police and that the crowd surged forward in anger.
Emphasis added.
Editors always lead with the stock market. Also, as I said above, there is no single thing called "the bond market". Corporate and high yield bonds are down. Treasuries are up. As you'd expect in a risk-off move.
As a reliable news source, the Daily Mail ranks well below the Washington Times and marginally above Fox.
109: Precisely. That's why I'm going to believe the BBC report, which was from an eyewitness and happened within a few hours of the incident, rather than something the cops and corporate media drum up 2 days later.
Treasuries are up
These are obviously the ones we are concerned with.
I need to step away from the internet. I've had too much coffee, and no matter what site I go to, it seems to have a higher than usual proportion of people who are being Wrong on the Internet.
109, 110: To be fair, the Daily Mail was referencing this Guardian article.
Treasuries are up.
That happens automatically when it gets colder.
re: 6
A school friend of mine was an environmental health officer [the sort of person who inspects food producers and restaurants], and, apparently, in the UK eggs are supposed (under health and safety legislation) to be supplied unwashed for precisely that sort of reason. He may have been shitting me, but given that it matches your 6, I think not.
Isn't the solution here just raw irradiated milk and eggs? Keeps the raw taste, eliminates most of the risks. (The fact that it would annoy the "ewww, so unnatural!" people I see as a feature.)
Isn't it always the case with riots that it doesn't matter what happened in actuality, but what was perceived to have happened by the riotous crowd? If there are rumors going round that the police beat a 16-year-old girl without provocation, that's surely enough to get spirits up. Given the general attitude toward cops that I've noticed in the UK, it seems entirely likely that it would be well believed.
The S&P downgrade and the markets' flight from risk should make my meetings tomorrow and Wednesday super-awesome. I was feeling confident about my part in the pageant, but I'm not sure I'll even get a chance to show off my buzzwords.
OT: Two different girls at the gym check-in counter have complimented my haircut, which makes me glad that I don't take a more active part in the cutting-my-hair business than just sitting there and meekly submitting to whatever the very nice woman feels like doing.
So, at least, whatever happens at the meetings you'll know your hair looks good. And really, isn't that the most important thing?
I've only been checking the BBC and Guardian, where are you seeing this report of her throwing a stone?
On the Guardian. You quoted a Daily Hate article, which as chris rightly says is not a reliable source; but in this case it's quoting the Guardian!
118: I am puzzled by the implication that there are other important things.
Isn't it always the case with riots that it doesn't matter what happened in actuality, but what was perceived to have happened by the riotous crowd?
Yes. Crowds are idiotic and I've seen it first hand, although it wasn't as bad as what's going on in Tottenham. Someone yells something and now it's fact and several witnesses who are no such thing will pop up.
The Earth Jam concert here in May had an incident with the crowd surrounding some of our guys chanting "kill the police" and a bunch of us had to go in there and push the crowd back. A guy was being arrested at the request of staff at the concert because he was high as shit and belligerently going into tents and rooting through purses and stuff. He also fights like crazy when he's high ( I know this firsthand because myself and another officer had a long drawn out fight with this idiot a year and a half ago). But hey, it's time to surround the cops and threaten them because we're just arresting a peaceful Earth Jam dude and brutalizing him for no reason. I guarantee if news cameras had shown up "witnesses" would have rushed to the cameras to tell that account.
The claims of the bullet in the radio being police issue sound nonsensical. It might be indeed a bullet from friendly fire but there's no tests to run at the scene to determine if it's police issue. Police aren't using handcrafted artisan bullets. Police ammo are rounds from big manufacturers that can be bought by the general public (granted this probably isn't as true in the UK)
Police aren't using handcrafted artisan bullets.
The kids today just don't put the effort into it that I did.
110: I saw the report that the girl threw a stone in very early news reports in the BBC or the Guardian, so it didn't take days for the claim to appear. (I can't find the article I remember reading now, though.)
Police aren't using handcrafted artisan bullets. Police ammo are rounds from big manufacturers that can be bought by the general public
Actually no, apparently: the Guardian says that it was identified (not at the scene, but in later ballistic testing) as being a special non-penetrating dumdum round used by police but, presumably, not as easily obtained by criminals. Essentially no handgun ammunition can be legally bought by the public in Britain, and rifle and shotgun ammo is controlled.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-tottenham-duggan-blog#block-34
Essentially no handgun ammunition can be legally bought by the public in Britain...
Then how do they load their handguns?
I am puzzled by the implication that there are other important things.
There is also one's tan.
Has a riotous crowd ever been dispersed by the tactical deployment of a comforting, relaxing rumor? Perhaps something about somebody giving away free doughnuts and cider?
My understanding is that London police tend to use silver bullets, due to that city's famed werewolf infestation.
I heard there's a backrub circle in the north parking lot.
119: Right, but, my point with quoting that was that, even there, what we're hearing is pretty egregious. "Maybe a stone" "15 cops set upon her" etc.
121: Well, of course, I wouldn't expect the officers actually involved in the shooting to be doing ballistics tests at the scene. But presumably they do have some idea whether they were justified in shooting the guy. And moreover, this fits in so well with the general police practice of only releasing information that would tend to exculpate officers, and fabricating much of that, that I tend to think there might be something to the reports that the fellow was not, in fact, shooting at anyone.
Furthermore, if the rioting and the shooting happened in metropolitan London, shouldn't both be adequately captured on about a dozen CCTV feeds? Where are those? Are they going to be conveniently deleted? Are the cameras involved going to be just the ones which had been taken down the week before for maintenance?
Here's the facts of the situation, as we know them now:
1. A young black man was shot by the police.
2. A peaceful protest march arrived at the police station with the demand that a senior official speak to the family and community leaders.
3. The police responded by sending out 100 officers armed with batons and shields, and stonewalling any possibility of a meeting for over 4 hours.
4. "It went off"
I think Bill Buford's Among the Thugs is pretty instructive here. When you've got a group of people with no particular reason to trust the police* and a group of police who are armed and ready to fight, it really doesn't take much to set it off. In one of Buford's accounts, for instance, it merely takes one football supporter stepping into the street to get both sides rioting.
*Let's remember that this is occurring in the following context: A working-class, integrated neighborhood which is suffering from high rates of crime, poverty and joblessness; significant cuts in social services; several recent incidents where police attacked protestors, resulting in very severe injuries and at least one death; and a police watch-dog agency which has no teeth and no desire to use them: 333 deaths in police custody since 1983 [almost exactly one per month on average], without a single officer convicted of anything.
127 - I believe that can dissipate a lynch mob led by Chief Wiggum.
Furthermore, all of the recent police scandals (NotW stuff; infiltrating environmental groups, etc.)
Five kids and we all drank raw goat milk and ate unwashed eggs for years.
My dad and his three brothers too, though more often cow milk than goat milk. He always talks about how the milk tasted different in the different seasons, especially the milk from a cow eating the new green grass of spring.
My dad's stories about the food they had as a poor family growing most of their own stuff often end up being the same sorts of foods you can pay $$$ for at Whole Foods and read rapturous articles about in food magazines.
it was identified (not at the scene, but in later ballistic testing) as being a special non-penetrating dumdum round used by police but, presumably, not as easily obtained by criminals
What they're describing is a regular old jacketed hollow point. And they're not non penetrating, as that would make them useless. Hollow points are designed for a controlled amount of expansion to inflict max damage on the target. It does make them less likely to pass through multiple subjects but that's a side benefit, not the main objective. Most police agencies here are using Federals, Speers, or Winchesters and all of those can be bought by the case right off the shelf. Yeah, not in Britain but probably in the same manner that people "can't" buy Cuban cigars in the U.S.
127: Happens all the time, but you wouldn't know it from reading the media, which always reports bad news instead of good news.
He always talks about how the milk tasted different in the different seasons, especially the milk from a cow eating the new green grass of spring.
You can still taste that difference after processing. I deeply dislike the taste of milk from a cow that has been eating fresh green grass.
I deeply dislike the taste of milk from a cow that has been eating fresh green grass.
R. Frost to the rescue (again):
"The Cow in Apple Time" from Mountain Interval, 1920
"Something inspires the only cow of late
To make no more of a wall than an open gate,
And think no more of wall-builders than fools.
Her face is flecked with pomace and she drools
A cider syrup. Having tasted fruit,
She scorns a pasture withering to the root.
She runs from tree to tree where lie and sweeten
The windfalls spiked with stubble and worm eaten.
She leaves them bitten when she has to fly.
She bellows on a knoll against the sky.
Her udder shrivels and the milk goes dry."
My dad's stories about the food they had as a poor family growing most of their own stuff often end up being the same sorts of foods you can pay $$$ for at Whole Foods and read rapturous articles about in food magazines.
This is very true of my step-grandmother, who at 88 maintains an amazing garden, as she has since she was a preteen on the farm, of things like amaranth and kohlrabi and oh so many other things. (Not to say that any of that is hugely exotic, but they were things that I've only seen show up in co-ops and farmers' markets in the last 12 or so years that I've been shopping for myself.)
He always talks about how the milk tasted different in the different seasons, especially the milk from a cow eating the new green grass of spring.
And also, presumably, depending on the recency of exposure to fallout from atmospheric nuclear testing.
Although areas near the Nevada test site were most often contaminated, the newly released data show that virtually the entire continental U.S. was affected, and "hot spots" also occurred in unpredictable places far from the site. These hot spots occurred because rainstorms sometimes caused locally heavy deposits of fallout. As a result, some children in large portions of the Midwest, parts of New England, and areas east and northeast of the test site (Idaho, Montana, and the Dakotas), received doses of iodine 131 as high as 112 rad.These dose estimates refer not to whole-body exposure, but to the concentration of iodine-131 in the thyroid gland, which occurred primarily through the "milk pathway." As cows and goats grazed in fallout-contaminated pastures, iodine 131 contaminated their milk. Children received higher thyroid doses because they drank much more milk than adults, and because their thyroids were smaller and still growing.
I thought that Amaranth was the chieftain of the Dúnedain.
As of this evening there's rioting/looting breaking out sporadically across a number of bits of London.
I thought that Amaranth was the chieftain of the Dúnedain.
I thought that Amaranth was the last girl in "88 Lines About 44 Women".
What!? Sheep might not safely graze?
I see that the Raweseome warehouse is on Rose Avenue. Aside from the Whole Foods on Rose, there is also this awesome clown statue. Yeah, it is a digression. But this is one weird clown.
When my Daddy got sick the Amaranth came and take him away.
142. I'd like to see a map of the areas with rioting overlaid on a map of the communities the government plans to deport to Margate and Hastings by refusing to pay their Housing Benefit.
I'm kind of surprised that "Amaranta" isn't among the names that people on the Internet mention when making fun of neighborhoods that they don't live in.
The FDA thing: it looks pretty clearly like the "menace" is that these people are circumventing Big Agribusiness by buying straight from the farm instead of eating the supermarket food that God intended. One can't have that sort of thing catching on. It's the kind of jack-booted thuggery libertarians should have a field day with, but since the thuggery is happening on behalf of corporate power... well, we know how that goes.
And so unnecessary, too. They're missing out on the emergence of a new market niche. As processed and manufactured everything (including food) becomes ubiquitous, it's logical that the demand for authenticity (however defined) goes up.
As for the situation in London: fascinating and terrifying. Hopefully something good comes out the other end of it; not really much more to say.
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Great moments in headline writing.Currently at Yahoo Finance: Dow Below 11,000; Nasdaq, S&P Lose 5% After Obama Addresses Downgrade-AP (I can't tell if this is AP's original or something Yahoo added, the link it goes to currently has a different headline.)
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I addresses this exact issue in an episode of my TV show Drop Dead Diva. Except that was camel milk not cow milk.
http://openbooksociety.com/article/drop-dead-diva-s3e4-the-wedding/
re: 146
I'd like to see the same overlay done with take-up of EMA.
Ok, who here besides me watches Drop Dead Diva? Seriously, that's like, a deep and dirty secret of my tv watching habits.
148: The FDA thing: it looks pretty clearly like the "menace" is that these people are circumventing Big Agribusiness by buying straight from the farm instead of eating the supermarket food that God intended. One can't have that sort of thing catching on.
Pretty much. There's been a fair amount of coverage of crackdowns on raw milk purveyors over the last several years; a lot of them have gone somewhat underground as a result.
Things apparently kicking off in some other UK cities, too.
151. Yes, that would probably be more enlightening. Mrs y points out that the people who are going to be deported are mostly in places with relatively high rents for the crappy housing like Westminster and Camden.
It's a reminder that the police -- for all the Met's paramilitary hard-man pretensions -- only maintain law and order due to the consent of others.
Oh aye? Brum. As Mrs y also says, "What the fuck do they expect when there's a million NEETs?"
Leeds, too, according to a mate on Twitter, but that may be unrelated local Leeds stuff.
135: What they're describing is a regular old jacketed hollow point
It could be the non-jacketed hollowpoints. Just reading about those on the Remington website. That would be unusual enough.
I mean, obviously the clearest evidence here will be after there has been a chance to gin up perform ballistics tests on the actual guns involved. If they aren't accidentally lost. Also, based on what specific brand and make of ammunition was in the pistol allegedly found at the scene.
God it's depressing. Trying to follow the #londonriots tag on twitter keeps freezing up my browser, there are so many coming in.
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The radio is talking the new generation of college graduates, the Millennials, are being very selective about their first jobs, making a lot of demands of employers, insisting that their jobs be "fun" and "rewarding."
It sounds like a rebroadcast of a program from the middle of the tech boom, not something made in the middle of a extended economic downturn with 10% unemployment.
But the whole thing makes sense when you remember that whenever NPR or the NYT talks about "The current generation," they really only mean the current generation of Ivy League grads. These kids are, as usual, completely spoiled and entitled. Of course nothing NPR says would apply to the 20 somethings at Last Chance Community College--people who have already had kids themselves and are wondering how to feed them. They don't count as "this generation of young people." They don't even really exist, apparently.
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Oh aye? Brum. As Mrs y also says, "What the fuck do they expect when there's a million NEETs?"
I suspect they expect to throw them all in jail, like in the USA.
In re: The Economy And Stuff: My two most conservative relatives are in support of the FB "Entitlements my ass!" status update meme.
Entitlement my A$$! I paid for my Social Security! Our benefits aren't some kind of charity or handout! Congressional benefits - free health care, outrageous retirement packages, 67 paid holidays, three weeks paid vacation, unlimited paid sick days - now THAT'S welfare. And Congress has the nerve to call my retirement an Entitlement? Re-post if you are sick of their crap, and ashamed of our "leaders.
Interesting.
DOES OBAMA's LUST TO CUT "ENTITLEMENTS" KNOW NO BOUNDS? WILL NO ONE EMERGE FROM THE DESERT TO LEAD THE CHARGE TO KEEP US FROM ALL DYING IN A DITCH?.
CHIMPEACH THE CHIMPEROR!
I recently combated the meme of "Congressmembers have free health care and don't pay into Social Security and have great retirement benefits" on FB. This shit seems to have some shelf life.
It would be really nice to see the police get convicted of a crime at least ONE time when the video tape evidence "disappears." Amazing how the crucial bit always seems to disappear or malfunctions. Ooops. Only ever seems to go one way though.
164: And the circle is unbroken.
163: How dare you call these "entitlements"! I deserve these things!
165, 168: Well, right, but heightening contradictions continue to heighten. I think a lot of these rural/exurban white working class people are a lot closer to open rebellion than the corporations would have you believe. That might not fit exactly with how I'd like to see an insurrection happen, but it would sure be something.
162. Probably in the long run (in which I am thankfully dead). But at the moment there isn't the infrastructure.
170: Sounds like a great stimulus program! All that infrastructure to be built, all those guard jobs to be filled . . .
You know what's really the best?
Also, do you want to see a totally amazing eco-anarchist movie? Watch Rise of the Planet of the Apes. It was awesome.
Apparently there was a shooting in Chapeltown but no riot. Although my journalist friend up there said there seemed to be large fire earlier in Harehills.
Fucking Cameron finally coming home, stupid cunt.
I think a lot of these rural/exurban white working class people are a lot closer to open rebellion than the corporations would have you believe.
Rebellion behind what program? An unfocussed jacquerie at this point would be exactly what the corps are praying for.
re: 160
Yeah. It's spreading. Tierce lives out East London way. Hopefully not too shitty where he is.
Twitter claiming stuff happening in Ealing. Can hear sirens, but not close.
Fucking Cameron finally coming home, stupid cunt.
Been upstaged by Clegg, who was on the scene, is why. This makes him (Cameron) look totally wank - can't come home in time, can't tough it out.
177. I'm sure he'll check in if it gets too interesting.
148: Libertarians were on the raw milk thing before this happened. I know I've seen stuff by bloggers at Reason Hit & Run about raw foods bullshit from the FDA before this.
It's funny reading both libertarian and liberal blogs. You get both of them wailing about how if the other side had integrity they'd be all over issue X, completely oblivious to the other side's writing and activism on the subject. Values of X include, but are not limited to: subsidies to Big Agriculture, Kelo vs New London, raw foods silliness, right to die laws, and drug decriminalization.
Alex, too, I think, although not sure if he's that far East.
176:If you burn it, they will come
The point of course is not to stop til the helicopters leave. Accelerate!
Been waiting on the cautious careful twelve-point program far too long
Can't read the thread just now, but I do think that it is a crying shame that we can't get raw milk *cheese* in this country.
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Yves Smith says the VIX says CRASH! Also Barry Rittholz.
Sell everything. Sell your youngest. Pack for overseas, and pack for the forests or mountains in case the planes stop flying.
Paraguay is nice. Not Europe.
Fine job, Obama. Yglesias thinks you have done great.
(Newberry is working up a series. See ya.)
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I do think that it is a crying shame that we can't get raw milk *cheese* in this country.
Do you mean raw milk cheese less than 60 days old? Because if it's been aged longer than that, it's legal. They sell it at Whole Foods, in fact.
Twitter full of reports of stuff kicking off down the road. Sirens. Nothing visible, though.
I'm way behind the thread, but I hope I am seconding another report of experience that eggs are shitty. Hens only have the cloaca. It was my understanding when collecting eggs for possibly-not-legal trade that washing them did reduce their lifespan; in fact, if unwashed, they don't need refrigeration, if your house isn't steamy. (Hens will lay dozens, even scores of eggs before starting to brood; the earliest ones have to keep.)
Not a problem in practice. When cooking, put eggs in sink first, wash eggs and hands in hot water in simultaneous getting-ready step.
181: Any remark I make criticizing "libertarianism" should be read as including an automatic disclaimer about the 0.05% of them who live up some part of their creed. Yes, I know Reason has the odd decent columnist and that Radley Balko exists, thanks.
Re: 188
To conclude this thread's Frost trifecta, see "A Blue Ribbon at Amesbury." Excerpt:
"'Tis ritual with her to lay
The full six days, then rest a day;
At which rate barring broodiness
She well may score an egg-success."
"The gatherer can always tell
Her well-turned egg's brown sturdy shell
As safe a vehicle of seed
As is vouchsafed to feathered breed."
The rest is left as an exercise for the reader.
I live in Hackney, 25 yards from Lower Clapton Road, 100 yards from the Pembury Estate. Got home about 10 from town centre, walked from the Pembury intersection -- bus on diversion so I jumped off there -- up to my square. Lots of people just standing around, lots of vans outside the police station, what looked like a car on fire further up Clarence Road (it may be the one on the cover of tomorrow's Guardian; it's out now, but there's still a strong burning smell in the air).
No helicopters at the moment, no sirens. Friends tell me Lower Clapton Road was on the news also but I think it was a lot further up.
(Just checked my friend D's twitter and he says at one point there were six or more cars burning the other side of the Pembury estate, but that's a 15 minute walk from mine.)
(Thinking of moving my car tomorrow, except I'm not really sure where to...) (Also thinking of staying with a friend, but again, not sure where...)
We need to work these sterilization issues out. After the collapse only those who eat eggs shell and all will get adequate calcium.
Friend of mine really annoying me, saying stuff like "Cameron coming back will just give bbc24 an excuse to ramp up the panic a bit" and "without constant "rioting!!! Looting!!!!!" headlines it might not be spreading as much as it is". Jeez, she's the sort of person that if it were happening anywhere near her, she'd be creating a huge drama out of it. (E.g. every time the IRA are mentioned, she brings up the 3 months she lived in London.)
191 - go and stay with ttaM! Oh no, that won't be any safer ... Come to Reading!
191: If trouble comes near you, spray them with raw milk and washed eggs.
Stay safe, Tierce. No point in taking a risk and hanging around near the epicentre.
Luckily for me, the Camden twats seem to have headed toward Chalk Farm rather than Kentish Town. I'm away from the shops so even if they do eventually descend on my part of town it should be OK.
erm yeah, they just torched a car in my square -- i moved mine about half an hour ago, to a quieter more residential street
it isn't so quiet now either
Shit tierce. Look after yourself babe. And seriously, if you want to get right out of town, there's a bed here. Hoping all is well in nattarGcM-land.
Rioting in ealing was about 500 metres away. But no sign here. We are further up the hill and is quiet. Cars on fire and home's broken into nearer the Broadway, though.
Still way behind the thread, but hoping that London gets an omelette without cracking any serious eggs.
Right, cannot stay awake any longer. Hope all Londoners have a peaceful night from now on.
LB@71: Nonetheless, the downgrade is an indication that really bad things are happening generally
Yes, If I may analogize freely, someone has just warned the owners of a house on the hill that it might flood, what would do if you owned stocks lived in the valley?
Hope you all are safe.
I'm fine, yeah.
Boy, I'll feel like an asshole if anything actually happens to any UK commenters.
So anyhow, I have a story: my coworker comes into work today with his hand in a cast. Turns out he got doored. He's sprawled in the street (doesn't know his hand's broken yet) and the dude who did it says "it's not my fault! There wasn't a bike lane!", locks his car, and goes about his business.
Loads of photos of cars on fire appearing on twitter from around here but all a good 5 min walk away. Photos look like mayhem, though. Houses broken into, too. Expect it's getting to wee rioters bed time.
"it's not my fault! There wasn't a bike lane!"
How can people be so heartless
How can people be so cruel
...
And especially people
Who care about strangers
Who care about evil
And social injustice.
205: Freak out. And go to bed early.
209: I thought you hated hippies, Flippanter.
208: Too many years of socialism means they can't walk that far?
210: Memories of childhood trauma. Very vivid. Someone hold me. And sing "Master of Puppets."
207: Doesn't the bike at least damage the door a bit?
I suppose you do try to slow down as much as possible.
In New York, the advice is to have lots of water, candles, antibiotics, and duct tape on hand. Alternatively, Asilon's house sounds very comfortable.
213: "Master of Puppets" is not familiar to me; I do have an extraordinary fondness for Hair. Don't ruin it for me, okay? It's been a rather shitty day, everywhere.
Based on the experience of 1992, good strategies are (a) find a Korean militia to protect you, or (b) have some local magnate order in private security guard employees to keep the peace or (c) just sit out on the front stoop with a shotgun. Probably none apply in your case. Good luck.
217: The duct tape can be used to immobilize a broken hand, but I don't see how the rest would help if you got doored.
Spoke too soon about the wee rioters bedtime. I can hear excited teenage voices outside.*
* less dramatic than it sounds. I'm several floors up, and I expect they are in the communal garden/park opposite. Still, not taking any chances.
In New York, the advice is to have lots of water, candles, antibiotics, and duct tape on hand.
"Survival kit contents check. In them you'll find: one forty-five caliber automatic; two boxes of ammunition; four days' concentrated emergency rations; one drug issue containing antibiotics, morphine, vitamin pills, pep pills, sleeping pills, tranquilizer pills; one miniature combination Russian phrase book and Bible; one hundred dollars in rubles; one hundred dollars in gold; nine packs of chewing gum; one issue of prophylactics; three lipsticks; three pair of nylon stockings. Shoot, a fella could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff."
Richard Seymour on the riots
Only a month ago, the Wall Street Journal wrote of how the global rich fear the coming violence of the poor:A new survey from Insite Security and IBOPE Zogby International of those with liquid assets of $1 million or more found that 94% of respondents are concerned about the global unrest around the world today. ... the numbers are backed up by other trends seen throughout the world of wealth today: the rich keeping a lower profile, hiring $230,000 guard dogs, and arming their yachts, planes and cars with military-style security features.
So, even if politicians are in denial, the rich aren't. You may well say, "bollocks, they're not taking on the ruling class, they're just destroying their own nest, hurting working class people and small businesses". I can hear this, just as I can hear the sanctimony in its enunciation. The truth is that riots almost always hurt poor, working class people. There's no riot that embodies a pure struggle for justice, that is not also partly a self-inflicted wound. There is no riot without looting, without anti-social behaviour, without a mixture of bad motives and bad politics. That still doesn't mean that the riot doesn't have a certain political focus; that it doesn't have consequences for the ability of the ruling class to keep control; that the contest with the police is somehow taking place outside of its usual context of suspicion borne of institutional racism and brutality.
Yikes, UK crew, hang tight. Hope it gets calmer.
Our mayor has just been talking tough in response to a genuinely disturbing wave of youth violence.
Not sure curfews and harsh words are going to deal with the problem, however. My copy of the Kerner Commission report is around here somewhere, but haven't pulled it out to look at how not-changed the world is: Young people out of work, with little prospect of finding any, restless and scared.
Cash is actually rather handy to have around in the event of system disruption. Unfortunately, any cash I have around is comes in handy well before system disruption.
Also: decent shoes, ID, batteries/charger.
It is unlikely to get to that point in London, I hope?
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S&P's real victim: cash-strapped cities? ...Suzy Khimm, newly at Ezra's place
S&P's is poised to downgrade thousands of municipal bonds that are directly tied to the federal government, with an announcement expected later this week. In July, Moody's recommended downgrading 7,000 muni bonds if the U.S. credit rating went down. While this secondary wave of downgrades is unlikely to shock the municipal bond market, it could reveal the vulnerable finances of some of the country's more fiscally troubled towns and cities, ultimately putting them on shakier footing by making borrowing more expensive.
I told you Friday this was coming.
As long as y'all are still laughing with Krugman.
Guns of Brixton coming to your town soon.
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226: Fortunately, my city is already stupid broke.
227: YOUNG MAN, THERE'S A LOT OF BROKE IN A CITY.
Reading the Guardian's live blog (live blogging MGIs!) is depressing.
219: The tactics already suggested elsewhere seem appropriate: "running away and cowering in front of a bouncer" would work well, and "kicking small animals" or "punching a defenseless old woman on the shoulder" might help you blend in.
Good morning London, is everybody OK?
Jesus, MacManus is a sociopathic twat. OTOH, we could usefully give him the people who produced the book in the other thread to play with.
Bit of minor property damage but nothing serious. Disturbing, though, to see the street I used to live in on the news covered in rioters and public order vans.
231.2: It's a lot easier if you read his comments in the voice of Private Fraser. Yes, indeed, bob, we are all doomed. Dooooooomed.
Or, alternatively, Rick from The Young Ones.
Bit of minor property damage but nothing serious. Disturbing, though, to see the street I used to live in on the news covered in rioters and public order vans.
Likewise. No visible damage in my current locale, though I didn't wander down toward Camden.
Bit of minor property damage but nothing serious. Disturbing, though, to see the street I used to live in on the news covered in rioters and public order vans.
Likewise. No visible damage in my current locale, though I didn't wander down toward Camden.
No visible damage in my street, I don't think, but down towards Haven Green it's fucked. Community cleanup supposed to be happening this morning.
Glad everybody seems to be OK. Hope Tierce's car has survived.
Our company has issued a "travel alert"
Extensive travel disruption should be expected across the Greater London area following the third consecutive night of looting and rioting across the city.The worst affected areas are Croydon and Clapham as well as Camden, Ealing, Peckham, Hackney, Lewisham Ilford, Brixton, Woolwich, Colliers Wood, Catford and East Dulwich.Dozens of roads have been closed across the city and bus and rail services are expected to be severely disrupted to the aforementioned parts of the city.
Mrs y is off to the smoke tomorrow. It's OK between Pancs and Victoria AFAICS so far, isn't it?
Ealing was pretty bad last night. 'Home invasions', in the US parlance, as well as just shops and cars being trashed. I expect there'll be questions asked of the police.
re: 238.last
I imagine that's too central to have been affected.
I'm OK, though I'm planning to stay with a friend tonight -- don't think my home is under threat but the night is noisy and burning cars isn't a smell to sleep easy to, esp. when you can actually see the light of the flames playing on the wall opposite your window.
Sounds wise, tierce. Better safe than sorry. Sounds like you were uncomfortably close to things.
My wife was mocking me this morning for having taken precautions before I went to bed last night [double locking the door, making sure I had shoes and 'stuff' handy, other minor stuff]. But fuck it.
I may have mentioned this before, but back when I was living in Acton and working close to 24 hour shifts on a Thursday, I once came back home on a Friday morning to have my flatmate point out the burning car I'd just walked past without even noticing.
Jesus, MacManus is a sociopathic twat.
I am not a Scot, for pity's sake.
243:
Lots of Irish names are spelled with "Mac". Still baffled why Dickens etc. used to spell them all "M'Surname" as it only works for names beginning with C or K.
Ian Welsh:
and
Screw Optimism and Screw Sanity
Ordinary people, what we call "sane" in our society, are really shitty analysts. Really, really shitty analysts. Their bias to the upside is tiresome, predictable and makes them wrong, over and over and over again. They don't know what real threats are, they constantly are confused about what is really dangerous.
re: 242
Yeah, I used to live in a part of Glasgow where, when I went running along the canal, I'd pass burning cars fairly often. It was a popular dumping point for kids joyriding from Possil. One street I lived in in Oxford had that happen a couple of times, too. Which was a bit unexpected as, while it was on the edge of what Oxford people told me with a straight face was a 'rough area', it looked pretty nice to me.
re: 244
See also the famous "M'Naghten".
Also re: 244, the 'c' in my name is silent, fwiw.
OT: Today I am wearing a tie, Internet degenerates. If you happen to storm the barricades, please don't shoot before inquiring about Mutombo or something.
Tell you what: as someone kept awake half the night just by noises right outside my window -- helicopters, explosions, shouting -- and by the smell of burning cars 150 yards away, I am way too tired and shaken even to do my normal job (routine proofing), let alone actually work out coolly where I stand and what I think any more. And I imagine lots of others are way more shaken and way more exhausted, and have -- a lot more urgently -- to make much bigger decisions (all I'm doing is thinking about staying with a friend for a couple of nights). So people high and low, left right and centre, but above all secure and far away, are now going to be talking smug self-confirming bollocks for days. Hurrah! It's going to be such fun to read!
(The M' -- in eg Dickens and Kipling -- is a typographical convention used by some printers or publishing house rather than an eliding apostrophe proper, I suspect: would much rather talk diacritical marks than anything else, except catch up on sleep and detoxify adrenalin-wise...)
(I found myself thinking of the three farmsteads in the middle of the Battle of Waterloo last night: La Haye Saint and the other two. As a kid I had a little plastic model of one of them. You never read what happened to the farmers and their families. They just happened to live on the wrong hill when the armies met.)
234: you mean there are people who don't do that?
252: the coverage of the riots on the bbc and other mainstream news channels has been so onesided, (borderline) racist and blimpish that it's been hard not to go too far the other way. Lenny has the best coverage I've found so far for somebody broadly "sympathetic" to the rioters.
A friend of mine living near/in one of the affected areas said he was "sympathetic, but not emphatic" towards the rioters, which sort of sums up my feelings. It's possible to understand why people riot and still think they're numpties, to have some understanding and sympathy as to why they're rioting without approving of the collatoral damage.
One positive result from the riots has been the spontaneous cleanup organised through Twitter, Facebook etc. last night and this morning.
Stay with the friend, if it makes sense at all -- you sound like you need a good night's sleep and people to eat with.
Now I'm asking for people to talk smug self-confirming bollocks, but do the riots seem to be about anything particular beyond the initial police brutality? I don't understand why (and of course there may be no good explanation) they're self-sustaining for this long.
My (obviously EXTREMELY anecdatal) perspective, from just one night in just one square, clashes quite a lot with the info -- not to mention the garbage -- flooding in from elsewhere. I felt and saw no threat at all from rioters towards local passersby (as distinct from journalists, bus drivers etc, though this I only read about): cars (burning or otherwise) were being used primarily as material for barriers; shops were very selectively targeted; the primary driving object seemed to be battling with the police, humiliating them, outmanoeuvring them, defending territory won against them.
One positive result from the riots has been the spontaneous cleanup organised through Twitter, Facebook etc. last night and this morning.
Yes, that is rather interesting. Bit of a Daniel Suarez moment.
243: not all sociopathic twats are Scots.
257: That would do well on a T shirt.
re: 253
I can think that most of the rioters are cunts, while still thinking that the sorts of policies that are likely to materially improve their well-being, and make for a much more equitable society are the right ones. And also think the Met are often a bunch of fucks, too.
re: 255
That seems quite different from Ealing, where ordinary drivers were attacked in their cars, and private homes broken into and looted. It seemed quite unrelated to any confrontation with the police who, it seems, were concerned only with protecting the main stretch of the Broadway from the station to the town hall, and made a decision to just let the rest go to fuck. Criminal damage and looting was the order of the day, rather than any kind of stand-off with cops.
I don't understand why (and of course there may be no good explanation) they're self-sustaining for this long.
Because they've discovered they can? It's nice to be powerful.
259.2: sounds like displacement; the intent was to loot the high street, but it was full of police, so they decided to cause some damage elsewhere.
Baton rounds tonight, the Guardian says.
re: 260
Yes, there was a strategy of displacement [going by twitter feeds, etc last night]. But the areas surrounding central Ealing were trashed, with no police presence. If police numbers are low -- and the youtube vidoes circulating suggest that, at at least one point in the evening, there weren't many -- not sure what other strategies they can adopt, but pretty harsh for those people whose houses got fucked over.
I expect it's only a matter of time before there are deaths [if it kicks off again tonight].
One positive result from the riots has been the spontaneous cleanup organised through Twitter, Facebook etc. last night and this morning.
This happened in Vancouver as well, during and after the relatively small-scale hockey riot.
One death already, it seems. A man was shot in Croydon.
Yeah, I saw that on the news. But I expect that could rapidly escalate. Whether via fires, or police action, or people defending their houses or shops, e.g. the stories circulating last night about Stoke Newington.
FWIW, quite a lot of what's being said on Seymour's blog and by commenters there makes me want to smack some fuck in the face.
Yeah, I'm kind of amazed, and very relieved, that nobody's died in the fires so far. Many of these shops have residential units above them.
1245: BBC Monitoring Russian TV channel Rossiya 24 says parts of London resembled a "battlefield". Citing Twitter, the Rossiya 24 correspondent claims animals had been released from London Zoo and lions and tigers could now be heard roaring on the streets. This is wearily contradicted by the Zoo's press officer. "It's been very quiet," she tells us.
In other news: ice age coming, sun zooming in
254: I don't understand why (and of course there may be no good explanation) they're self-sustaining for this long.
What ttam said in 259, but I expect the heavy handed police presence after the first night of riots helped inflame passions further as well. Also, rioting is fun, smashing shops up is fun and getting free tellys is a bonus.
Not that I'm not sympathetic to setting things in context, but some of the stuff on Seymour's blog is just cuntish sneering at people's (real) fears.
Parliament recalled. Who the hell do they think that's going to impress?
268: Lions, no, but we cannot rule out the presence of the Man-Eating Badgers of Basra.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6295138.stm
265: Lenny does always have a bit of that SWP trained, what does this means in terms of historical dialectical materialism and WWKMD going on in his posts, which can indeed be grating especially if you're caught up in whatever he's pontificating about...
268: To stop the riots from spreading, the police should start a fake twitter storm telling everyone that tonight's action is to free the lions, tigers, and bears.
This sounds fucked up and awful. I guess I am supposed to hate them because they eat in fancy restaurants? But Jesus.
Based on the experience of 1992, good strategies are (a) find a Korean militia to protect you, or (b) have some local magnate order in private security guard employees to keep the peace or (c) just sit out on the front stoop with a shotgun. Probably none apply in your case. Good luck.
This is pretty much what's been happening in Dalston; the Turks and the Kurds have been out in force protecting their shops with the aid of large, shaven-headed cousins with baseball bats. Residents very grateful.
re: 273
Also the pot-calling-the-kettle-black stuff about 'middle-class ventriloquism'.
The other side of using social networks and the internet to organize rioting.
I really hope there is a thorough effort to go after the looters and vandals. Fuck them all.
I've read in a few places about folks with baseball bats. Makes sense. Except there is something that puzzles me. Why would people have baseball bats to hand in the UK? There isn't much call to play the game, is there? Are they simply sold as weapons?
http://www.lost-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/milk_cheese-evandorkin.jpg
Are they simply sold as weapons?
Basically, yeah, I think. Although people do play rounders/softball.
Cricket bats are quite handy weapons, too, I think.
Then why not use cricket bats? Would seem to be more available and less likely to make people suspicious.
To my untrained eye, baseball bats look more aerodynamic and harder to break.
re: 284
Not sure. I think culturally baseball bats are seen as more bad-ass and 'weapon-like'. I'd quite fancy a weighted cane myself, but they aren't legal.
286: The ones with a nice big silver knob on the end are forbidden?
282 may have a point: also the weight distribution is different.
I'd quite fancy a weighted cane myself
AKA a "Penang-lawyer", thank you Sherlock Holmes.
Over here the Zulu knobkerrie is only sold as a weapon.
I've sometimes wondered if these umbrellas are all that they are advertised to be. I'm curious, but not $200 curious.
I personally thought James Meek's article on the LRB blog rather neatly articulated the unease I feel about my life in London, as a firmly middle-class white male professional living in a socially-mixed area.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2011/08/09/james-meek/in-broadway-market/
re: 288
Yeah. I have actually done a little bit of 'la canne' and may end up doing more, although a tiny bit so far.
re: 287
That's fine, but only if the shaft is just wood. If there's any weighting of the body of the cane then they are classed as weapons. And ordinary wooden cane with a metal ferrule and knob would be fine.
That's fine, but only if the shaft is just wood.
What about aluminum? The cheapest canes here, the kind they send you home from the hospital with should you need a cane, are light aluminum (aluminium?) tubes.
Fine, too, I'd guess. A lot of these things in the UK aren't explicitly illegal, but any modification of things to make them weaponised pretty much automatically renders them illegal.
286: The ones with a nice big silver knob on the end are forbidden?
Unless carried for medical purposes, all canes have a big knob on the end.
294: I didn't modify it, but I keep my supply of lead fishing weights inside.
I think baseball bats, especially metal ones, are going to be much easier to wield as a weapon than cricket bats. I mean they're designed to be swung in more or less the same way as you would smash in a window. Whereas there's only so much you can vandalise with a cover drive or a leg sweep.
254
Now I'm asking for people to talk smug self-confirming bollocks, but do the riots seem to be about anything particular ...
Some people don't need much of an excuse to riot .
Perhaps this is a good time to mention that I find the constant references (in comments to this blog) to burning stuff down off-putting.
298.last: What about the bad puns? That's what most people seem to have a problem with.
I tried to suggest an alternative, but it never caught on.
re: 295
Heheh. That is, generally, true.
So, maybe this is a stupid question, but basically, if the regular cops can't handle this, the government's next option is the British Army, right? There's no analogue of the National Guard that would step in, and no pesky rules like we have here about the regular army not getting involved in civilian policing (Operation Garden Plot aside), right? Would Parliament need to authorize that directly, and that's why they're being recalled?
300: We will rearrange your shit in ways that are not conductive to either Taylor-style industrial efficiency or feng shui style ass-hattery.
I remember some translation of a government warning to German parents from back in the early '90s, on the theme of "How To Tell If Your Son Is A Neo-Nazi", and one of the questions was "Does he own a baseball bat, but no glove or baseball?"
We will put shit on Craigslist and use really unflattering pictures of the shit.
Designated hitter! Report him to the authorities.
Also, FWIW, the London branch of the IWW has been doing their best to share news and analysis of the riots, and, while refraining from condemning the rioters, is supportive of the riot clean-up efforts.
To lighten the mood with some domestic humor, let me mention that I learned from bitter experience that giving a novelty wooden (but somewhat heavy) baseball bat to my 3 year old was really not the best plan. Weaponized preschoolers are a problem.
304: "Does he have a Charlie Chaplin moustache and give uncomprehending looks when you mention 'the little tramp'?"
302. Yes they could use the army and I don't think they need parliament for that. The army has been used to scab on firefighters' strikes in the past with no parliamentary action. But the police haven't really got stuck in yet - still not used water cannon or baton rounds.
If they declare a state of emergency parliament needs to support that within a given time, a few days. They won't want to do it, though.
302: essentially yes. There is an analogue of the National Guard - the Territorial Army - but it doesn't have any crowd control training AFAIK, it's really only there to backfill the regular army.
Parliament wouldn't as far as I know have to vote to authorise it. If the PM wants it to happen, it'll happen. There wasn't a vote on putting the Army in to support the RUC in Northern Ireland.
Halford's home is littered with overturned, burning Hot Wheels.
Yeah, what Chris said. It seems, from the news, that they are ramping up police numbers and will possibly go for somewhat more aggressive policing, but I expect they'll be hoping it'll peter out.
"Baton rounds" just sounds like nightsticks fired from a gun to me. Rubber bullets, that makes sense.
giving a novelty wooden (but somewhat heavy) baseball bat to my 3 year old was really not the best plan
Indeed, it's seldom a winning strategy.
314 except they're plastic these days. And they're threatening to start with them tonight.
"Baton rounds" just sounds like nightsticks fired from a gun to me.
And then I started thinking of LB & Tweety's VR urban hunting game.
Okay, that makes sense. Would it be a huge negative publicity thing then if the army was called in? Here, it seems like, since Vietnam/Kent State, most governors have been pretty loath to call out the guard except for really big stuff (they did for the RNC here in 2008, for instance) and natural disasters. Rudy Perpich's political career took a huge hit when he put the guard on the streets of Austin during the Hormel P-9 strike in the 80s. But of course, that was because his base of support was unions on the Range, whereas, as with Pawlenty calling out the guard in 08, I imagine Cameron would get nothing but praise from his constituencies for bringing in the army.
Would it be a huge negative publicity thing then if the army was called in?
It would be an admission that the civil power can't control matters itself. Calling in the army is what happens in Northern Ireland; troops in DPM (armed or unarmed) on the streets of London would be a huge sign that the Met and by extension the government has lost its grip. They turn out for natural disasters, and for the firemen's strikes, and they do the occasional hostage rescue and that kind of thing, but that's a bit different. Actually patrolling to enforce law and order? Ouch.
It would be an admission that the civil power can't control matters itself.
Going for Batman too early causes similar issues. If the Joker shows up, go ahead and light the signal. But, you'd better send the regular police for a mugger or whatever.
From the BBC:
Some 16,000 police officers will be on London's streets later in a bid to prevent a fourth night of rioting.
The government's emergency committee, Cobra, met in the wake of Monday's violence, which spread across London and prompted unrest in other cities.
See, right here, I think if you're going to call in an international terrorist organization to help deal with some riots, you're already starting off on the wrong foot. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that Destro and Cobra Commander actually had a hand in fomenting these disturbances!
Forgot about blockquote not liking hard returns there.
The person in charge on the night is the Gold Commander. Just for more comic book name action.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_-_silver_-_bronze_command_structure
"Triple the patrols! I want authorization to deputize ten thousand civilians." - Commissioner Dolan
And the person in charge of the whole Met, the only one left standing after all off her corrupt/NI connected superiors resigned is Cressida Dick, her who gave the order to kill Jean Charles de Menezes.
re: 325
Er, not quite. She's about 3 people down from the top job. Although still very senior.
I refuse to credit the existence of a person named "Cressida Dick."
Am staying in Kew tonight. If that goes up frankly nowhere is safe this side of Anglesey.
327. I bet she got thrown off Google+ for being a pseud. But, sadly, she exists.
327: now you know how we feel about Tom DeLay, Lauch Faircloth, Arlen Specter, Newt Gingrich and all those other people whom you insist are actually real.
And, yes, currently i/c the Met is Tim Godwin. Dick is in charge of the Special Operations branch.
Tom DeLay, Lauch Faircloth, Arlen Specter, Newt Gingrich
Dick Armey.
Dick Armey and Cressida Dick have a son together
332: well, quite. John Boehner. And I remember seeing election literature for Rich Pratt when I was in the US a few years ago.
re: 328
I thought the same re: Ealing.
And, of course, former Congressman and ambassador to Denmark Dick Swett, whose seven children are named, I shit you not: Chelsea, Sebastian, Keaton, Chanteclaire, Kismet, Atticus, and Sunday.
When they grow up they're going to draw lots for who murders their parents while the rest provide a cast iron alibi.
I have a friend who lives in Crouch End, which I had previously assumed that Stephen King made up for one of his horror short stories.
In Heaven, all of the aerobics instructors are named Chelsea Swett.
337: I suspect Chanteclaire draws the short stick more often than not.
I went to school with a guy whose family name was Myballsarhuge.
Couch End is all right, but Pratts Bottom is richer.
Cressida Dick? Yes, but Troilus arsehole.
286 et seq - see also "Baseball in Irish History"
http://www.digitalfilmarchive.net/dfa/browseDisplay.asp?id=353
344: It was pronounced "jon-suhn."
Enfield fires destroy stock of major independent record labels
345. A small bat there. More of a baton. Or, a nightstick.
"A message to the youth of Hackney":
http://hackneyunites.blogspot.com/
Very well put.
As Riots Continue, Sales of Bats Spike on Amazon.UK
351: Wow. That's people who are confident enough that rioting will continue for at least a couple of days to mail order rioting equipment.
Confident that the riots will continue, but not get so bad that the mail stops.
re: 352
Next day delivery. Anything ordered today would be there tomorrow. I don't think anyone really expects it to stop for a day or two, at least.
You don't need a lot of purchases to make a trend in Amazon. Not a lot of any given product gets sold on the average day.
Maybe they're just ordering replacement parts.
Probably as much rioting dissuasion equipment as rioting equipment, I'd imagine.
I first read that as spiked bats, which I'm fairly certain are not legitimate sporting equipment.
359: How else do you get the holes in the wiffle ball?
While the spike in baseball bat sales is dispiriting, what leapt out at me more was the fact that Amazon is selling retractable batons. WTF?
No matter what weapon you decide to go with, accessories can make a big difference.
Police urge holster use after man shoots his own penis
The holster is more useful before you shoot your penis.
It's like a vest for your jimmy in the city of sex.
Holster? I don't even need one anymore!
Why are baseball bats superior to cricket bats for personal defense? Serious question.
confident enough that rioting will continue for at least a couple of days to mail order rioting equipment
This might be meaningless or just wrong, but I read that sporting goods stores are being looted disproportionately.
Had this discussion on another forum. The consensus is that the weight distribution is better for vandalism/thuggery. Cricket bats aren't designed to be swung at shoulder height.
This might be meaningless or just wrong, but I read that sporting goods stores are being looted disproportionately.
Probably more for the trainers. Sporting goods stores here don't carry much in the way of vandalism friendly equipment.
I am assuming that the bats being bought on Amazon are for defense, not for rioting. I don't think of rioters as being the sort of people to use one-click shopping. (Plus all the BBC stories about people guarding their stores with baseball bats).
The main advantage of a cricket bat is that it's designed for a wooden ball rather than a rubber ball, and is thus probably harder.
Yeah, people are surely ordering them for protection. Not for rioting. I did a quick mental inventory last night of things I might have in the house for twatting people with. I didn't come up with much.
Baseballs aren't rubber, they're made of cork with wool wrapped around and then cowhide stitched around that.
Upon inspection, that's basically what cricket balls are made of too, despite being harder.
Did you just cut my cricket ball in half?
ttaM's twatting list:
1. Fists
2. French slippers
3. ?
Huh, I was pretty sure cricket balls were wood (or is cork a kind of wood?). But they are both smaller and heavier than baseballs.
Certainly in the topsy-turvy world of heavy rock, having a good solid piece of wood in your hand is quite often...useful.
Cricket balls are hard enough that people have been killed playing cricket.
Heh at 375/376. I think I settled on some tools or dumbells. Not that it'd have been at all likely, anyway. We live in a block of flats, not a house with a door opening onto the street, and there was no trouble in our street barring a bit of shouting, anyway.
373: I presume you have a decent selection of kitchen knives, at least.
Oh yes. Chinese cleavers and all sorts.
But that seems a bit more drastic than just twatting someone with a lump of wood.
382: And if you have carpeting, a bit too much cleaning might be involved.
Cricket balls are hard enough that people have been killed playing cricket.
According to The Prisoner, my principal source (after the Flashman novels) for information about the United Kingdom, some of them are full of explosives.
But that seems a bit more drastic than just twatting someone with a lump of wood.
Well, yes, but the point isn't to actually use them.
I should have known, reading the thread, that someone would have already made the Troilus joke before starting to write my own.
However, I can report that, while people were laughing about someone named "Manlove" running for elected office a few years ago, it turns out that Congress has already had a Manlove.
Riots caused by society or lazy, thieving pricks, say experts.
389: Wow. We really take the Onion's level of quality for granted.
I should have known, reading the thread, that someone would have already made the Troilus joke before starting to write my own.
If it's any consolation, my pleasure at making the joke was greatly diminished by the the fact that I prefer the Chaucerian spelling "Troilus and Criseyde" to Shakespeare's "Troilus and Cressida".
Looking idly around the kitchen for anti-rioters equipment, as you do, I noticed not just the big fuckoff knives, but also the knife sharpener, which is a rod of hard steel/ceramic material that looks though enough to break bones if used properly though doesn't look nearly as menacing as a baseball bat. Less reach too.
Match play ccricket balls are made of tightly rolled string arond a cork core in a sewn leather case with a raised seam. But you can get cheaper practice balls called "composition balls" which are made of cork and rubber, which may be what you're thinking of.
392: I am thinking ice-axe. Probably not the crampons; I don't want to mess up the floor. (I suppose I could wear them on my forearms, Batman-style. But that might be silly.)
The Prisoner, my principal source (after the Flashman novels) for information about the United Kingdom
I wish I lived in Flippanter's version of the UK.
