I think I recall that in On the Road, Sal Paradise travels across the U.S. eating only apple pie from diners -- maybe with vanilla ice cream?
Which one is of disputed authenticity?
A. I wasn't paying as close attention at that point, though, because they had started speaking more rapidly.
If a fake clown sheds real tears, does that smudge the make-up?
"Aside from Native American" is hilarious.
Champaign for my real clowns, Urbana for my...I think I have gotten myself into something I can't dig my way out of.
I'm trying to work out where one would hear such a conversation.
Apple pie is only American by adoption. There are so many good American settler foods which really were (re)invented there that this makes me want to kick him downstairs even before he starts on the astrology.
A cafe in the city I now call my home.
Hilarious. Were they speaking in English? (I ask because of the 'speaking more rapidly' comment.)
7: it is a brief but excellent roadtrip that does quick loops around the National Museum of the American Indian's food court.
12: yes.
13: yes; had they been speaking in German it would have been quite a struggle for me.
One can think of no legal, social or ethical rule or custom that would prohibit leaning over and remarking "Yours is the stupidest conversation that I have ever eavesdropped on, and I have a blog, so I'm always looking for material."
"Aside from Native American" is hilarious.
But who among us doesn't love a nice dish of maize and peyote?
Too bad. The inclusion of Native Americans AND authenticity would have made it a hilariously German conversation.
I have always been vaguely curious to taste whatever product came out of the Miwoks' acorn mash. Only vaguely curious, mind you.
National Museum of the American Indian
Keegan and I went there when we were in DC a few weeks ago. I didn't find the exhibitions to be all that compelling, but the building itself sure is beautiful.
So they were in a cafe in America talking about how bad American food is? I assume they were only consuming coffee, then. (Is not the coffee in America also too bad to drink, by the standards of Italian bistros cafes?)
20: I found the exhibits quite stupid, but the building is rad and the food court is way awesome.
And was it resolved that A is authentic? I can't properly evaluate the conversation, and therefore whether American food is any good or not, without this information.
20: My wife and kids did the museum without me and I can relay this on-topic observation: The food was memorably good.
A is authentic.
B said that a friend of hers told her that her friends rely on her for her wisdom, and A confirmed that this was so.
21: not only that, but all indications were that they themselves are American!
So, tell us -- what food do they serve in the food court at the National Museum of the American Indian?
There's more than one National Museum of the American Indian.
26: well, the one I went to (there are others?) had a food court where each of the booths/stalls served culinary specialties of a the tribes of a different region.
I didn't find the exhibitions to be all that compelling, but the building itself sure is beautiful.
In parts of the museum I actually found myself getting angry at the lack of information. Want to know about this completely unfamiliar language printed on the wall, seemingly as a decorative background? Too bad! But you should know that Indians can be firefighters! And nurses! I get the attempt to emphasize that Indians still exist, but I still would like to learn about the history and culture that underpin that existence.
there are others?
One in DC, one in New York.
28: DC and New York. (The DC one is much bigger. I haven't been in either one.)
29: Did you try the maize and peyote?
And the one in NY is in the old Customs House where Melville worked. It's a great old building that also holds the SDNY Bankruptcy Court.
found myself getting angry at the lack of information
Yeah, it was weirdly uninformative.
Is something a "museum" if it doesn't try to convey information to people?
What would be a better word? "Shrine"?
It's a great old building that also holds the SDNY Bankruptcy Court.
Oh, right. I had to travel to NYC and file something there 20 years ago when I was working as a legal assistant and determining that I did not in fact want to go to law school.
Is something a "museum" if it doesn't try to convey information to people?
Yes.
37: museum -- building or place where works of art, scientific specimens, or other objects of permanent value are kept and displayed.
Nothing about conveying information to people.
http://muddymudkip.tumblr.com/post/9668763873/worst-museum-ever
I feel like I'm channelling neb.
And the one in NY is in the old Customs House where Melville worked
That would be way cool. But unfortunately it isn't true. The museum's building was designed by Cass Gilbert (Woolworth, USSC, etc.) and built at the end of the 19c. The big statuary groups are by Daniel French (Minuteman, Lincoln, etc.)
The opening ceremonies -- aka the Indian Woodstock -- were truly memorable. I have the feeling that the museum is geared to 10 year olds, presumably with ADD. As are the other Mall museums. (Gearing to a 10 year old with ADD is, ime, exactly right for a curious six year old with a reasonably educated adult, given to bloviation. So maybe that's whether they're actually going for.)
The food is pretty good. It's good at the History museum as well. People touring Air & Space should walk there for lunch.
Museum of the American Indian
One more for radical lack of context. I get the need to emphasize shared humanity and details of contemporary life. But the past, both the past before Europeans as well as the details of how so many Indians were killed, was just missing. The wall of guns near the wall of arrowheads and wall of (contextless, mostly from Mexico) figurines was just freaky. Much worse than the other museums, I'm afraid.
The sandwich bar under the NGA is OK, has excellent gelato.
For American food (that is, something only Americans love while others don't), peanut butter and root beer are both very strong candidates.
Ha. I screwed up the link. So, naked this time.
http://oldnycustomhouse.gov/history/architecture.asp
and
http://oldnycustomhouse.gov/history/artists_art/daniel_chester.asp
Wasn't there a time when the food at the Air & Space museum wasn't a McDonald's? I thought I remembered it as having burgers, hot dogs, other fast food, nothing great, but higher quality than McD's, and I went there a year or so ago and was surprised that it was a McDonald's. But maybe my childhood memories are fuzzy.
47 -- Wait, what? Guess I haven't been there much since 2001.
Oh, it looks like they've re-done the food area at the History museum to de-emphasize conveying information about regional cuisine, and instead see how many people they can cycle through for standard American fast food. Hell in a goddam handbasket, I tell you.
Peanut butter features prominently in West and Central African cooking (although to be fair, it is just ground peanuts with maybe a little extra oil and salt, and used to make savoury sauces, not the sweetened stuff people in the States put on bread. So maybe essentially different.)
Yes, I would say this is different. Satay sauce or the garnish peanuts with sweet vinegar that are common in Vietnamese food also do not count.
Sweetened peanut butter as a cold entree smeared on "bread" which is itself laden with sugar is what tastes like home to Americans, but (I claim) will not be eaten voluntarily by others. White Castle, cupcakes, and pork breakfast sausage with maple syrup are other candidates.
I'm hard-pressed to think of gross, US-specific food that is not sweet.
I had a couple of Ukranian witnesses on a case once who were clearly the kind of guys who didn't get to travel much, and they showed up determined to get their hands on lots of peanut butter to bring home. They asked me where they could get the good stuff -- like, luxury peanut butter. I sent them to Fairway; I have no idea what they bought.
I'm hard-pressed to think of gross, US-specific food that is not sweet.
Does it have to be gross? Country ham isn't sweet.
Does ketchup leave the US easily? Come to think, that's sweet.
Chocolate chip cookies are quite American.
I read this stuff about peanut butter being the True American Food, and I thought, "Yay! Even though I am a vegetarian atheist with socialist inclinations, I am still a True American because I eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich everyday!" But, the peanut butter I eat is just ground roasted peanuts -- no sugar or salt added. Is that still American? Maybe not...except that having it with grape jelly makes it American, right? Right?
OK, surprising counterexample citers, there are people with pica as well, that doesn't validate eating dirt.
Hmm, maybe I'm just looking for validation regarding food that I don't like much. Unsweetened PB is OK by me with banana or chocolate.
Country Ham, choco chip cookies
indigenous to the US, but other people like them OK; I'm looking for an analog to natto or escargot.
Ketchup, sweetened US ketchup, is pretty popular in much of Europe, Mexico, and Japan.
Aren't casseroles American and not necessarily sweet?
There's a store in a small town near here that advertises that it carries 57 different kinds of black licorice. That's a lot of gross sweetness.
Oh, something gross. Ok, Hamburger Helper?
No, casseroles are common in Germany and Central Europe.
Scandinavians love licorice. They eat it with ammonia flavor. No shit.
Tuna noodle casserole? Samoans love it, but I would expect it to be unpopular most places outside the US.
53: You didn't send them to Peanut Butter & Co.?
Scrapple? I don't think it's gross, but I believe it's generally regarded as such.
Is it popular in the US? I will eat it if someone else has cooked it, but I'll be kind of alarmed if I can't douse it with habanero.
Cheap and filling, for victims of a domestic gulag who haven't learned to cook for themselves yet.
67: I did not, and now I feel terrible. They were so nice, and had such amazingly Soviet-bloc ties. I swear the ties glowed, in disturbingly optical patterns.
70: KGB mind-control devices, cunningly concealed. That wasn't peanut butter you led them to: it was the launch codes!
Tangent, and possibly alarming for a group apparently afraid of visual art, but there's a last supper painted in Lima that has Jesus eating guinea pig.
Jesus-eating guinea pig.
So you're saying it wasn't the Jews?
Cute Overload: Most Adorable Last Supper Ever!
Does it have to be gross? I have enjoyed succotash, and it enjoys the advantage of an irreproachably authentic pedigree - probably A & B even approve of it, so it must be good!
Loco moco and plate lunch generally is pretty gross. So is green bean casserole, oysters Rockefeller, Philly cheese steak, and those hippie fake Indian lentily-type dishes with which I was endlessly served at my college co-op (although those last are pretty popular among German students too IME, so maybe they don't count).
I like Oysters Rockefeller. And greenbean casserole, but I'm not proud of that.
Oh, I thought we were looking for American foods that people from other countries won't eat. I actually like loco moco, but I'm American; I wouldn't expect anyone who's not to eat it.
72: There's one in Cuzco as well.
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1477504375065331594jCQQQU
It's a stereotype, but I am surprised that they were not interested in Mayonnaise. Russians are avid consumers of domestically made Mayo.
There's lots of good American food, both traditional and not, but I'm looking for markers of specifically American taste, something that people here tend to go for while foreigners don't. Probably better off asking foreigners than asking here, but it's an invitation to be rude, so will not be an easy question.
Oh, following up on the tuna noodle casserole, not quite food: cunnilingus?
Oh, following up on the tuna noodle casserole, not quite food: cunnilingus?
I don't think it's specifically american.
I volunteer to find out. Send me native and foreign beauties and I'll report back.
Only Americans like to eat puxxy? (That's for LB's netnanny.)
I think you need an American woman to sample foreign wares, rather than the reverse.
I think you need an American woman to sample foreign wares, rather than the reverse.
Oh, right.
My offer stands.
81, 86: That's how Mikey's first girlfriend died.
No, the chestnut is a totally different maneuver.
I honestly don't know the answer, and having said it I guess the question is heteronormative. I'm given to understand that some foreigners find the practice surprising.
All of the illustrations on the Wikipedia article for cunnilingus are European. I am a little surprised because I never heard that stereotype before. Which foreigners are you thinking of?
92: I think you're thinking of the marron glacé.
Which foreigners are you thinking of?
Claudia Cardinale, for one.
One Chinese, one indeterminate Latina, and the Puerto Rican guys who worked in the warehouse. It's possible the guys were BSing, but the girls were surprised.
97: There's a cunnilingus warehouse?
The girls were surprised... when you offered them cunnilingus for lunch? You may have other problems here.
I'd think the guys would be more surprised.
Is there a connected refinery? A pipeline?* So many questions.
* Note how adroitly one averts the terms "off-taker" and "cracker."
55 gallon drums is how it's shipped
Right, because it's obviously incompatible with gaylords.
If there were ever a sector that screams for government stimulus, it's the depressed cunnilingus market.
Oh, following up on the tuna noodle casserole, not quite food: cunnilingus?
This reads like a cryptic crossword clue.
Also, the lack of a "Yankee Lover" stereotype would seem to conclusively disprove this claim.
[T]he lack of a "Yankee Lover" stereotype....
If Deadspin can be believed, Alex Rodriguez likes them muscular.
Now people sitting next to me are speaking German and I can understand hardly any of it. Something about a flight to SF and an Aufenthalt.
markers of specifically American taste, something that people here tend to go for while foreigners don't
The McRib.
If there were ever a sector that screams for government stimulus, it's the depressed cunnilingus market
Something something state and local governments.
And speaking of Native American food, I ate at this place again for lunch on the first day of this trip. This time I had the Navajo Burger (basically two patties in a piece of frybread) and I'd say it was more in line with Anglo tastes than the Navajo Taco.
Speaking of tuna casserole, a friend from Galway once served us a lovely whitefish and scallops baked gratin-thing that was very clearly a tuna casserole progenitor. We can't even claim that.
Na-Cheeze-Itos might be American. Will anyone else eat them?
I'd go with clam chowder.* Baked beans, for that matter? Potato salad?
*Though it's hard to believe no one ever put together a milk/cream based soup and seafood before.
something that people here tend to go for while foreigners don't
thickly frosted birthday cake
Pork sausage with syrup is consumed in Canada too. And nutria is said to be delicious.
Peanut butter and banana sandwiches?
I've lost track of why it has to be gross, and am all hung up on the fact that my existing culinary knowledge is wrapped up not in the cultural or geographical or historical distinctiveness of any given dish, but in ... other things.
She says apparently plaintively.
I have told you all about the famous 'white meal' a friend of mine and his wife were treated to when visiting friends in Iowa or Kentucky or some such: mashed potatoes (peeled), chicken breast (skinless), iceberg lettuce salad with radishes and cucumbers (peeled) and Ranch dressing; and for dessert, vanilla ice cream with marshmallow topping.
Cranberry juice is something Americans like and foreigners can't stand. I saw a Swiss girl take a sip and spit it out everywhere once.
By the way, that freshly ground roasted peanuts peanut butter that people mentioned upthread is really good with raisins on top, or better, much, much better (in the heavenly realm), fresh raspberries. Halved red grapes are okay too.
parsimon, an Irishman of my acquaintance used to make white dinners the way his mother did. Not quite the same ingredients, but similar.
I mean, similar to what you describe; probably quite like what his mother made.
'm looking for markers of specifically American taste, something that people here tend to go for while foreigners don't
Chilled drinks.
I came into an NZ friend's house once to find her dubiously picking at a sandwich. "You really eat peanut butter and jelly?"
Turned out she thought 'jelly' meant 'gelatin-based dessert' and had sort of sliced some on to a sandwich. Apparently it wasn't appealing.
I once had a long conversation with some French friends' 9-year-old daughter, who was incredulously fascinated by the idea that Americans actually ate Jell-O. She had seen it in movies, of course, but she just assumed it was some weird exaggeration. She couldn't get over the fact that I had actually tried it. "People really serve that? Like to their guests? And you wouldn't be offended? You would eat it? Is it hard to keep a polite face while you eat it? How much do you have to eat?"
124: What I wonder is: is the whole and utter whiteness intentional? I don't see how, or why.
My dad bore pretensions to Irishness (I don't know whether these were legitimate, but no matter) and one of our New Year's Eve traditions was this kind of codfish gravy, heavy on the cod, on mashed potatoes. Awful. It's not clear to me that it's Irish -- seems more Scandinavian -- but my dad got it from his mother and it was the family tradition, so there it was. The salted cod came in a wooden box with a sliding top and had to be soaked, then boiled (?) all day long, which truly stank up the house. But we did it every year as I grew up.
I guess until we kids became old enough to start to protest, anyway. Oh! We had kielbasa along with. It seems kind of Polish or something, then, doesn't it?
She was also weirded out by eating corn (but that is food for PIGS!) but she came around after we made her try it.
The particular Irish meal I was given was not only only half a generation out of Ireland, but I suspect it meant a particular kind of Irishness, which I do not remember details of. Her lemon curd recipe is excellent, though.
American pizza seems to be difficult to reproduce elsewhere, so perhaps it's not liked anywhere else. I'm told it has canned cream corn on it in Cardiff, possibly to represent Americanism.
122: I was in Switzerland last week and was quite surprised to see cranberry juice a couple of times; I had thought that it was too unpopular to be worth selling in most of Wait, this sandwich costs US$15? Europe.
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My God, Google jumping the land shark with extreme prejudice.
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canned cream corn
Ew. Not as bad as canned creamed spinach, which does make me actively gag, unfortunately.
I say this with all due respect to those who love it.
The booing of the questioner is going to get all the notice, but Santorum's completely ass-backward logic is a wonder to behold.
I would say any type of sexual activity has no place in the military. The fact they are making a point to include it as a provision within the military that we are going to recognize a group of people and give them a special privilege to and removing Don't Ask Don't Tell I think tries to inject social policy into the military.Wait, what?
I continue to fail to see why anyone would deliberately choose to watch a Republican primary debate.
First I googled "jumping the land shark" with extreme prejudice, and then "jumping the land shark with extreme prejudice", but neither yielded anything particularly interesting.
I watched about 1/2 of tonight's Republican primary debate and would have watched more of them if I'd had more time. When given a reasonable excuse, I like to watch the candidates and their pageantry live--of course it will never be unmediated, given all the scripted lines, but the live version prepares you a bit better for the spin that will come.
Tonight's show revealed that Jon Huntsman has unorthodox taste in ties, that what's-his-face Johnson doesn't even have an amusing debate presence, and that Romney has the best-prepared and most mature stage presence by a long shot. He's still acting like the front-runner, for sure.
Just as an abstract conceptJust as an abstract concept
Regarding Rick Perry, a Texas friend today shared her wish that he win the nomination, such that he (probably?) won't run for re-election as governor, but then lose in the general and thus be out of a job. I hadn't considered that possibility and it has moved me into the category of strongly supporting Perry for the RNC nod.
147: The food or the Chilean traffic jam?
what's-his-face Johnson doesn't even have an amusing debate presence
Johnson's presence in this debate is amusing me insofar as it has led people on the left who apparently had a vaguely positive impression of him before, probably for his libertarian opinions on drug policy, to realize that he's actually terrible. (I'm thinking mainly of Yglesias here, but I'm sure there are others.) Having endured eight years of his governorship, I was mostly just amused to hear about his presidential ambitions.
*Though it's hard to believe no one ever put together a milk/cream based soup and seafood before.
Not quite a cream based soup but salted cod with some sort of white sauce is done in a hell of a lot of countries.
I also fail to understand why "American" food has to be gross. Haggis is objectively gross but shortbread is delicious. Both are quintessentially Scottish, at least to a foreign audience, defined as me. (I'll probably turn out to be wrong about shortbread being truly Scottish, but wevs.)
I don't think anyone has said that American food has to be gross. Even person A in the OP mentions at least one exception.
There's a Chinese jello-like dessert. It's almond-based (actually not, see below) and I've always thought it was called "almond jello" in an Americanized form, but this unsourced wikipedia article has it as "almond jelly." And it's apparently almond based in the way that luo bo gao is turnip based, which is to say it isn't, for American values of "almond."
American pizza seems to be difficult to reproduce elsewhere
I found some pretty good American-style pizza in Scotland about 10 years ago. It might be the only American-style pizza I've had outside of North America.
I continue to fail to see why anyone would deliberately choose to watch a Republican primary debate.
To give us fashion reviews? Which is to say that I hope JM keeps watching them.
I think we're shooting for food that Americans think is awesome, while foreigners think is disgusting. The foreigners would be wrong on this, of course.
Stockholm has a shit-load of Pizza Huts, for some reason.
re: 116
You mean like Cullen Skink?
Switzerland has a chain of American-style pizza restaurants, but it's not very good. I think American-style pizza requires hotter ovens.
That reminds me that I did see a bunch of Pizza Huts at various places in Europe, but I never ate at any. I don't go to Pizza Hut here either.
On the American-only-non-sweet-food question: baconnaise, cheese-in-a-can and corndogs.
So, tell us -- what food do they serve in the food court at the National Museum of the American Indian?
"The Assiniboine boiled bison blood and brains with rosebuds and hide scrapings, while the Comanche liked the partially curdled milk from the stomachs of young calves, an early form of yogurt."
Best food court ever.
I too fail to see why the food in question must be inedible. succotash--asked and answered, bitchez. shrimp and grits. red rice. hush puppies with fresh corn kernels in them (aka corn dodgers). crab boil. lobster roll. pulled pork WITH SC STYLE SAUCE SORRY APO. dressing (i.e. stuffing baked outside of any creature, and decorated with slices of hard-boiled eggs). well made yellow cake with chocolate frosting is a beautiful thing.
I have undertaken several dinner parties the purpose of which was to convince non-americans that american food is delicious. (in one case the diners merely convinced me that southern food is african, kind of a backfire.) they have all been successful, even the one for the gay french art dealer, that aesthete than which none more refined can be conceived. his praise for my cooking was unstinting, despite the fact that I had fucked his boyfriend, so you know that food was good, girl. (he was pretty free and easy about what any given boy toy when he was in a different city. he had places in paris, the berkeley hills, tokyo, new york...missing somewhere maybe, each of which was well stocked with good wine and hot guys in their early 20s.)
also, flippanter is rocking this thread. kudos! you must have lots of work to do.
You mean like Cullen Skink?
"Tell me son, you like murderin' salamanders?"
"No, but I love Cullen skink."
something about one of those transalpine institutions, an Italian bistro, follows
An Italian bistro would be a cisalpine institution. Really, neb, this is the sort of thing you should be picking up on.
I would say any type of sexual activity has no place in the military.
... (dumbfounded) You've never actually been in the military, have you, senator?
163: Well, the nicer stuff is more likely to be eaten abroad, isn't it?
"The Assiniboine boiled bison blood and brains with rosebuds and hide scrapings, while the Comanche liked the partially curdled milk from the stomachs of young calves, an early form of yogurt."
In one of the Flashman novels, Flashman narrates a Lady and the Tramp-style buffalo intestine-eating contest between, I think, Kit Carson and a Plains warrior.
The only "American" food I won't eat is jello salad; most of what you've all listed here is delicious and most people I know would love it. What's the American equivalent of tripe and onions boiled in milk?
Re. Cunnilingus, get real. This is from Pompeii.
And we all know what happened there.
Yes, apparently women got eaten out in bath houses. Given that there were a shit ton of bath houses all over the Roman empire, I doubt if this was a purely local habit.
I've said before that since bonobos are way into oral sex, there must be a good chance that it got started with our last common ancestor about 6 million years ago. I mean, why wouldn't it?
Cunnilingus is something Americans like and foreigners dont??!
(It seems wrong to make a comment about cunnilingus with tongue in cheek.)
Pumpkin pie is probably pretty American.
To bring this thread full circle, my grandmother had lived in France in the 20's, and some of her French friends came to visit Boston in the 60's or early 70's. The daughter (who was not a child) was absolutely shocked that there weren't American Indians running around all over the place wearing feathers.
My first thought was that 169 was going to link to a plaster cast of some bodies.
175. No, plastercasting really was an American invention, AFAIK. In fact I think there was only ever the one person who made a habit of it.
172: Then how do you explain lw's experience? It's universal, except for China, some part of Latin America, and Puerto Rico?
Frank Harris, writing around the turn of the century, learned about it from a French woman, who called it "tante mieux". He liked it, and referred to himself as a "practitioner of lesbianism."
I'm pretty sure it's universal in Europe. I can't speak for other places. I find it hard to believe anyone, more or less anywhere, hasn't heard of it.
172, 177: I understand it's taboo, or at least deprecated, in west Africa. Possibly all of sub-Saharan Africa, but I don't know.
Someone told me that one of the Harvard natural history museums has some stuffed Native Americans in the basement. They were viewed as inappropriate for displaybut something which should not be destroyed.
They were viewed as inappropriate for display
They were having oral sex?
177. I suspect the answer is that pretty much every feasible sex act is universal at some level, but may vary considerably in fashion and respectability. I mean Cowgirl was deprecated by the mediaeval church, but it was the default position of choice in classical Greece (where it was known as Jockey).
Probably the people lw met came from a less hypersexualised milieu than some here, and it hadn't occurred to them. That seems quite reasonable - much more reasonable than the idea that you can't find cunnilingus anywhere in China.
I mean Cowgirl was deprecated by the mediaeval church, but it was the default position of choice in classical Greece (where it was known as Jockey).
Words cannot express how delighted I am by the Regency-diarist capitalization in the foregoing.
That seems quite reasonable - much more reasonable than the idea that you can't find cunnilingus anywhere in China.
I'll bet you all the teabagging in China that you're wrong.
OT: Does anyone want to complain about the DC Comics reboot in terms that will be of use to me in making purchases w/r/t trade paperbacks in 8-10 months?
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Latest from the LHC:
The barman says "We don't server tachyons in here". A tachyon walks into a bar.
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183 - Do you have a citation? I was under the impression that doggy was the default for the Greeks and Romans, but I haven't studied the matter in detail.
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This is slightly disturbing to me.
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188: Something red-figure krater tondo something Roman brothel tokens something?
What's the American equivalent of tripe and onions boiled in milk?
Chitlins?
An Italian bistro would be a cisalpine institution.
I debated this. It's really a both-sides-of-the-alps institution.
183, 188: I seem to remember that it was considered a somehow more thrilling position, not the default choice - perhaps based on prostitution rates for different positions or something. But I could be wrong.
190: I was under the impression that red-figure kylix tondo something something mostly depicted absurdly contorted figures performing sex acts no human without extensive training in both yoga and acrobatics could hope to perform. I assume these are not the go-to positions for the ancients. If so I can see the appeal of young boys.
188. I had a citation but I can't find it because I've got too many damn books. It wasn't on line.
190. Roman brothel tokens are Roman, and therefore not entirely conclusive about tastes in Greece 400 years previously. But Tog is right that there seem to be a lot of doggies in that collection.
193 is probably the answer, it's a long time since I read it.
194: There are no tricks, only enthusiasm.
On rereading, this thread rushed from food to sex rather headlong.
You really want to take an hour or two, maybe a nice walk, to digest first.
Don't want to get cramps, after all.
At the time, though, it seemed quite natural, even necessary.
OT: Does anyone want to complain about the DC Comics reboot in terms that will be of use to me in making purchases w/r/t trade paperbacks in 8-10 months?
I can't help you but have a friend who can. He's really enjoying the Superman prequel year, which is highly controversial. Uh, among certain interested parties, in whose number I can't exactly count myself.
The Naples archaeological museum had a special section devoted to explicitly sexuality-related artifacts, called the something "secreto" (maybe "gabinetto"?) which was viewable during regular hours, but you had to get permission first, I guess to keep the kids out.
I hadn't looked at all the information at the front desk of the museum when I got there, so I didn't know about this until I got to the room. As I was reading the sign explaining why you couldn't just walk in, the guy assigned to watch the door gave me some kind of knowing look and then made a motion with his arm which meant "just go in, I don't care."
Lots of positions depicted on a variety of pieces, including some with animals. One piece helpfully explained that the man was holding the some animal's (maybe a deer?) legs to the side in such a way as to avoid getting kicked. Also, some of the text basically exposed as hypocrites, without explicitly saying so, some of the Victorians who gathered collections of this stuff but kept it from the public.
203. I thought the most interesting piece in that collection was the little Indian goddess (presumably assigned to the "gabinetto" on account of her plenitude in the mammary department). I suppose she'd been brought home as a souvenir by the author of the Periplus Maris Erythaei or one of his mates. I mean, you know intellectually that the Romans were trading with India regularly, but seeing Indian stuff in a Roman context still hauled me up short for a moment.
Now all we need is Erik Lund to post a controversial view on the history of sexuality, for example, arguing with surprising conviction that the entirety of Russian history and culture is a massive conspiracy to deny lesbianism...
food that Americans think is awesome, while foreigners think is disgusting. The foreigners would be wrong on this
I can't think of a better example of this than peanut butter. I know many Americans, including myself, who are happy to eat peanut butter straight out of the jar. Everyone I've discussed it with from other countries seems to view it, in the best case, as kids' food on par with spaghettios, etc. Something you don't get caught eating as an adult whether you secretly like it or not.
The birthday cake example was a real case. A Japanese friend of mine worked in a place where each employee's birthday would be celebrated with a cake during the lunch break. He took to hiding in his office whenever somebody had a birthday so he wouldn't have to eat a piece of cake. I watched him tell this story in front of a bunch of Japanese, and everybody got a what-have-I-stepped-in look on their face and nodded.
But come on, those heavily-frosted birthday cakes are gross.
I don't believe that anyone eats them except out of a sense of duty.
OK, how to shock the Americans. I love peanut butter, but I put salt on it and treat it as a savoury spread. PBJ is edible, but meh.
Who doesn't like salty peanut butter?
My mother is Israeli, and she loves to eat peanut butter out of the jar (the plain "natural" kind not the kind with sugar and/or salt).
210. Well, I could give you a couple of addresses, but I doubt they'd be happy if you contacted them about it. During the period of my teens when I hung out with Americans more than any other nationality, I never saw anybody exc. me eating salty pb. I'm glad to be proved wrong.
Potato salad?
BITTE. GLAUBST DU DAS WIRKLICH?
206.2: The ratio of cake to people is too big.
OK, how to shock the Americans.
Duh, tasers. It's practically a spectator sport now.
The daughter (who was not a child) was absolutely shocked that there weren't American Indians running around all over the place wearing feathers.
An American I knew who was teaching English in a German high school was told the story that before she arrived, the students at her school were told one day in English class that they would soon be getting an American teaching assistant. One student super excitedly asked, Do you think the she might be an American Indian?! The teacher said that no, it was unlikely that she would be an Indian. But maybe? Isn't there any chance at all? The student pestered the teacher until she finally said Okay, sure, MAYBE she will be an Indian.
I can only imagine the disappointment that ensued when a fat, pimply, white midwesterner showed up.
Don't like peanut butter at all. Ate it a bit as a kid, but I wouldn't now except if forced. Not particularly a big fan of (Malay, Indonesian, whatever) peanut based sauces, either. Small amounts are OK, but a lot of dishes are swimming in it.
Potato salad isn't particularly American, I'd have thought? Missed that earlier, but Czechs eat bucket loads of it at Christmas, and I'd have thought some sort of left-over potato + flavourings salad is universal.
218: Germans are so into Native Americans. I feel that's a stereotype backed up by every German I've ever met, except for the one who was obsessed with Africans.
I'm sure the German/Native American thing must come from Karl May. Not just Germans but central Europe in general, I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnetou
We just named our new kayaks Tonto and Winnetou.
Tontowinnetou?
I don't get it.
must come from Karl May
Oh yeah, definitely. And in East Germany, there was identification with the American Indians as people who were repressed by the evil west and/or who were very ecologically pure.
Here's the sandwich for you, Chris y:
butter, peanut butter, salt, sriracha
mmm-mmm.
I am what I am today thanks to spinach peanut butter. It was an absolute fetish food for me in my youth. And I could have drawn the xkcd cartoon with it substituted for bacon. Some days I would try to imagine where I ranked on some World Ranking of Total Peanut Butter Consumed Today--pretty well up there on occasion, I daresay.
But I'm all better now.
225: So the East Germans had it right.
So the East Germans had it right.
Well, maybe not the identification part.
229: East Germany was not by any stretch "ecologically pure." They may have fetishized such, but c'mon--this is like R's saying 'no gambling or family planning--now look how prudent and chaste our teenagers are.'
226 sounds excellent. I've been trying to swear off pb as a nod in the direction of obesity control, but that looks fine.
But they were repressed by the west, right?
I had the impression that East Germany was the most ecologically fucked up developed country in the world. But that wouldn't preclude the people who lived there pining for a better deal - I would. After all, the people who ran it never actually acted on Brecht's suggestion that they dissolve the people and elect a new one.
232: there was a big meta-analysis recently (in Nature, I think?) of what foods contributed to weight loss/gain (in terms of pounds per year), and I think peanut butter had the lowest contribution of all the foods mentioned. I forget what had the highest contribution (french fries, maybe?).
236: Yeah, you've got to eat a metric fuckton of it to gain weight. But it works!
never actually acted on Brecht's suggestion that they dissolve the people
Yeah, only select ones of them.
236: Potatoes were definitely on the ass end of that analysis.
What does being on the "ass end" mean in this context?
236: I thought yogurt had the lowest contribution?
213, 219: I was thinking of what I feel inclined to call American potato salad: heavy on the mayonnaise, with chopped hard-boiled eggs, and often somewhat sweet, with maybe chopped sweet pickles or sweet relish added to it.
But perhaps that variant is known elsewhere as well.
I never knew about the German interest in Native americans ,but somehow I was surprised to find out that Quantum Jump (of "Lone Ranger" fame) weren't a German band.
Can anyone pass along more specific reference details on that meta-analysis paper? I'd be interested to see it and the several minutes I just spent on google scholar and Nature.com were not fruitful.
re: 242
That's basically the same as the Czech version. Potatoes, mayo, egg, pickle. Cubed, really small. Served with carp.
UK potato salad is more just potatoes, dressing and herbs. The dressing might be mayo, or salad cream, or some sort of light cream/creme fraiche type concoction.
242: honestly, German potato salad is just a less sweet version (I have only had GPS from a German restaurant in the US).
240: Contributing the most to more ass, of course.
246 -- I've never had GPS made with mayo. And have had quite a bit of GPS over the years. There is bacon, at least in the Saar version.
248: Well, it sure seemed like it had some mayo-like substance in it. Maybe that particular gasthaus was catering to their US clientele. There was bacon, though, to be sure. A nice potato salad.
OT: Jury duty ahoy! Maybe. Apparently, the send you a letter so you can get called if you are needed. I'm not going to try to get out of it (I'm very civic-minded), but wondering if they are going to take me because of the crushingly large number of lawyers in my family.
I've had potatoes with herbs & stuff that might have been considered a potato salad. On average, I prefer that to the paradigmatic American mayo potato salad, but I do like a good American potato salad. Unfortunately, there seems to be a thin line between "good" and "makes me sick a few hours later".
243 -- Ask any German over the age of 45 about Winnetou or Old Shatterhand.
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Argh. Sally just got accepted for a serious swim team she tried out for. She's been taking lessons at this place for years, and I've been gritting my teeth at the expense, but pleased with how much she's enjoying it and the results.
The team has a really grueling practice schedule -- I told her to go ahead and try out, and if she couldn't hack it what with school, she could drop it. Unfortunately, I thought (with no basis) that payment for the team was going to be (a) on the same quarterly basis as lessons were, and (b) comparable in cost to lessons, so if she dropped we'd only have wasted one quarter's worth of fees.
Nope -- payment for the whole year up front, and it's a lot more than the lessons. I think it's a good thing to do if it turns out to be compatible with school, but wow it's a shitload of money by my standards that might end up going down the drain.
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Question for people with experience with management consulting companies.
If you work in research for a German/Swiss/US pharmaceutical company, and one of the new presidents keeps talking about change and streamlining management layers, how much should you be worried about keeping your job--even though corporate is bloated and US research is stretched. Don't know as much about Europe.
Management consultants have been brought in. First Acc/enture, then BC/G, then Mc/Kin/sey. I don't have enough experience with any of them, but I felt okay about BCG and am now slightly scared having heard that McKinsey is involved.
Thoughts?
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There's definitely mayonnaisey GPS as well.
244: I tried to find a cite and couldn't. Let me take another whack at it.
253--dang, that's a pickle. Isn't she very nearly in hs?
254 is a weird mix of the specific and the general.
254: Nobody hires consultants except to cover layoffs. At least that would seem to be a safe assumption during this economy.
Explain to Sally that if she drops the lessons, you're taking the balance out of her college fund. If you don't have a college fund for her, even better: she's in the red.
259: Yes, but which one will push for the more aggressive layoffs? And are these going to be in the bloated corporate area or indiscriminate.
They did just buy a large filter company right next to them, so they are merging finance operations and will be cutting HR once the companies are more integrated.
Because, I like having good health insurance and don't want to have to use my company's. Plus I can't afford our apartment on my salary.
First Acc/enture, then BC/G, then Mc/Kin/sey
This seems like overkill; they all same (more or less) the same thing. (Sorry knecht.) I'm not sure I'm understanding what they're expecting to get from Mc/Kin/sey that they didn't get from the other two.
Regardless, "streamlining management layers" definitely means layoffs, without question, but without more information it's difficult to say what sort of risk that pus someone in research. If it's true, as you say, that "corporate is bloated and US research is stretched", then research is probably comparatively safe.
253, 260: Seventh grade, but the school's very demanding. I think it's worth a shot that she'll be able to manage school and swimming, but it'll be enough pressure that I'm not going to twist her arm to keep doing it if it's screwing up her schoolwork. Eh -- it's a shitload of money, but it's not going to break us. Just bend us a little.
263: Does McKinsey have more experience/offices in Europe?
One of the VPs for global research came into the BF's lab and said, "great lab. bet you could scale up to 100g." They've been pushing themselves to do 300g. And it's not great, because they don't have the equipment and only 1.5 persons in his area. But they want to prove that the U.S. can do a big scale-up
265: Well, grade 7 in a pretty serious school isn't a bad time at all for her to find out how much she values the competition. Sucks that it is a block fee. I would be conflicted, myself.
I meant 267.1 in that it is close enough to hs to help her bound (either below or above) her enthusiasm for extracurriculars.
I would be more conflicted if I'd checked out the expense before tryouts. Given that I took her to tryouts, listened to her stress about getting on for a week, and talked supportively about how she was going to handle the workload, saying "Nope, too spendy" now is something I can't do. (Well, I could if it were really impossible, but this is an amount of money that I'd spend on, e.g., a vacation or something. Ridiculous, but doable.)
I was on a swim team from elementary school until 8th grade. I quit, but because I got tired of swimming, not because of schoolwork. I think payments were monthly or bi-monthly, which kept the lost cost down.
The summer practice schedule was fairly demanding, with morning and afternoon/evening practices, but the school-year schedule was about 1.5 to 2 hours on weekdays, plus travel time to get to and from the pool. I guess that might count as demanding, but at the time it didn't seem like a big deal. Schoolwork wasn't very heavy, though.
If it's true, as you say, that "corporate is bloated and US research is stretched", then research is probably comparatively safe.
How can this be true? "Corporate" means the people making the decisions, right?
It's always tough when 1.5 area persons try to do a scale-up from 300g to 100g. I'm sure Mr. McKinsey knows that.
"Corporate" means, I would presume, both the people making these decisions and lots of people underneath them.
but the school-year schedule was about 1.5 to 2 hours on weekdays, plus travel time to get to and from the pool.
That's not that much less than what she's looking at, so it's reassuring that it didn't seem like a crazy amount to you.
I just brought a scale into the bathroom and I could only manage a couple of ounces. I'm not sure how many grams that is though.
oh grams. I was thinking multiples of Earth gravity.
In what context is a move from 300g to 100g a "scale-up"?
Perhaps g in this case is the g-factor, or general intelligence, and the VP was expressing his hope that the lab could do the same amount of work with people who are three times as stupid.
100g is older than 300g. They want the lab to be more O.G., less new school. It's like no one here knows anything except for me.
277: in synthetic chemistry
Oh, I see what you did there.
I often get confused that a map scale of 1:x is considered larger scale than 1:y when x<y.
It's obvious when you actually see the map areas and how much is represented at each scale, but written as numbers it seems counterintuitive.*
*Chrome's spell check does not count "counterintuitive"as a word.
The med chemists make 2-10mg, but their methods are inefficient. Once something's been screened for viability you need more to do tests. They've been producing 300 mg by pushing bf to the breaking point. Their lab really shouldn't be doing more than 80-100 grams.
A friend of mine worked for B/C/G. It made him almost as miserable as a law firm might have done.
80 grams is way more than 300 mg.
BG, what do you hope to get from this thread? No one is going to be able to tell you anything specific.
What if KR has the power to fire her boyfriend? What then, Nosflow?
He still won't be able to tell her anything specific, because he will be bound by a sense of professional duty.
Anyhow, as a trained Haruspex, I have examined the entrails of a ewe and can say with 100% specificity that BG's boyfriend may or may not be fired.
I think you should check that with some augury.
I hope that somehow Halford really did get training as a haruspex. Part of the crossfit regimen?
Ewe intestines make terrific resistance bands.
Eew. Intestines make horrific resistance bands.
Or, you know, first you run down the sheep over rocky terrain, then you slaughter it and eat its flesh raw, then (since you're there anyway) you read its entrails to figure out what exercise to do next.
I worked my way through college as a freelance belomancer.
Topically, I just learned that Carolyn has probably never even opened the payroll system.
Then you can sit next to Carolyn's very loud coworker and wait for an airplane.
295 is a slow, swooping softball through the strike zone for a pun of many colors. Don't let me down, people.
Now I'm learning that somebody didn't make a chart board and somebody else orders mediocre pasta salad for events.
Flip, don't you even care that somebody is doing the ICD-10s wrong. I can't make a pun at a time like this.
I ... you've given me a lot to think about.
Maybe it was all a misunderstanding, BG. You know, the bosses were all, "300 grahams? We should have s'mores!"
Because, yum.
My minimal experience is that all the Mc/Kinsey work I've seen made sense, was intelligent and original, and was intellectually defensible. However, I can also remember several things they were involved in that I wasn't involved in, all of which were appalling disasters. Like British railway privatisation.
Ac/centure: grey man consulting. BCG: don't know them well enough. PA: involved in loads of British public sector IT nightmares. Bain: can't talk as all my colleagues are ex-Bain.
I worked my way through college as a freelance belomancer.
Is that what they mean by "slings and arrows of outrageous fortune?"
Further, I thought, contra Wikipedia, that "bolomancy" referred to this
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you guys, I just finished writing Chapter 5 (the fifth and final) of my dissertation. !!!!! I think this means I might actually graduate!
(I still have to do some extensive revisions to the lit review in chapter 2, but that barely even requires that I be awake, much less sober. Who's gonna read a lit review?)
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306: Who's gonna read a lit review? in my experience, your advisor's next student with any related project. Nobody else.
305: Close, but I was looking for "Couldn't get a staff position?"
Trivia: I once began writing a short verse drama, subtitled "An Adroit Belomancy," but then I had to work and, you know, the market for sustained gibberish died with the Rev. Dodgson.
307: My advisor's retiring at the end of the semester. PROBLEM SOLVED.
I thought "belomancy" was the preferred augury method in Minsk.
309: I'VE GOT A RUNCIBLE SPOON HERE THAT SAYS DIFFERENT.
307 and 310 would seem to cast doubt on the first sentence of 306.2. How extensively must you revise something that no one will ever read?
it its current form, it includes a number of headings with no prose beneath them, and some lists of examples of things that are not in complete sentences, and incomplete citations that I have to look up. So I have to either write words or delete the headings, and find the correct citations. And maybe some other things. But it doesn't have to be very good, because no one will read it.
Don't fuck up the citations. If you get famous, people will read it. If it sucks, they won't care. If it might be plagiarism, they will.
313: Nice try, Asher. Write another Ian Cormac novel and we'll talk.
I previously had a complete version of the lit review, but then I decided to reorganize it by key concept (instead of chronologically) so I moved everything around and added headers and reminder notes to myself and then ignored it for months.
I don't actually have any idea how much time I'm going to have to put into it.
I definitely don't have to think very hard while I work on it though, so I'm still basically finished.
Just fill in the area under the headings with the phrase "No work worthy of note."
United Airlines has a metaphorical red carpet.
I am pretty sure I didn't accidentally plagiarize anything. It's just that I didn't ever look up the actual year of publication or how to spell the authors' names or whatever.
a number of headings with no prose beneath them, and some lists of examples of things that are not in complete sentences
So just say it's formatted powerpoint style.
Congrats E. We seeing you this winter? You've heard, right, that The Girl is coming back?
You will potentially be seeing me as early as Tuesday, in fact. Due to a series of increasingly infuriating, but still very boring, occurrences, I'm headed for Montana on Monday and coming back to DC at a to-be-determined point, to defend.
The Girl is coming back
That means snow, right? I'm for it.
I think Messily and Carp are talking about a cocaine shipment.
319 I previously had a complete version of the lit review, but then I decided to reorganize it
Why not un-decide that and call it finished? Congrats on finishing!
You should come this weekend. 87 tomorrow. 67 on Monday.
So I have to either write words or delete the headings, and find the correct citations.
If your dissertation finishing experience is at all similar to mine, most of them will get deleted.
|| A housemate of mine from the 1970s was on Science Friday today. Not that I want to play the derivative fame game again, or anything.|>
You should come this weekend.
No truer words, etc.
253: Nope -- payment for the whole year up front
You might try to exercise your mad negotiating skillz by simply saying , "No. I will pay you in quarterly/bi-annual installments." Have the check in hand when you do it. I have seen that work around here for "cup" soccer teams--which tend to be run very amateurishly yet try to play on parental anxieties to lock in the cash* ("Pay two years now and no tryout needed for next year"**). This may of course be a complete non-starter in New York swimming as opposed to P'burgh soccer.
*Many of the organizations are run by soccer coaches who are very knowledgeable about the sport but with little organizational skill and who are absolutely scrambling to try to earn a full-time soccer living.
**However, a catchphrase for soccer was. "12 players, 6 payers"***. And although most of the "players" also pay, for a team aspiring to move up the competitive ranks, the best will have partial/full "scholarships"*****.
***Kind of crappy, but still these are private businesses--the marginal HS player (not just soccer now****) making the cut because their parents paid for a lot of "private lessons" takes the phenomenon to a new level.
****At least for swimming (club and HS) there's the objective time, which somewhat limits the abuses described.
*****See also colleges, for how the financial need/merit aid breaks down.
285: I was typing quickly on my ipod.
No, I know that I won't get anything specific. I was just sort of hoping to hear that maybe they're going to focus on reorganizing Europe and integrating the business side of the two merged companies and leave the scientists alone and that I'm not in total denial to think that that's a possibility. That is all.
Yes, I can think of some big-time McK disasters.
What do you mean by grey man consulting?
I was just sort of hoping to hear that maybe they're going to focus on reorganizing Europe and integrating the business side of the two merged companies and leave the scientists alone and that I'm not in total denial to think that that's a possibility
That sounds awfully specific to me.
Shorter 335: If there is a parent who has a kid on the team and who:
a) is not insane
b) is not an asshole
and
c) has greater than 4 child-years experience in swimming clubs in NYC
see if you can have a frank discussion about how things really work (not just about the payment, but things in general).
Yes. But mostly I wanted to know whether someone might hire McK, because they might have a deeper international presence.
BG for some consulting gigs the consultants matter, for many others they don't one bit. And even for where they do matter (which can be hard to assess), trying to guess in a specific instance by consulting firm reputation is pretty close to useless. And not sure what you would different absent far, far greater specificity of information.
And 340 is a badly written sentence, but my brain is hurting.
JP, that's actually quite helpful.
I don't think the swim team I was on had tryouts. Actually, it was probably considered a club rather than a team. We competed at meets as individuals, though our affiliation may have been listed in the program. It was all pretty low key and fun (until I got tired of the swimming part, at which point it would have been silly to show up and not swim).
Huh. 2 hours is actually close to the regulated max daily practice time for high school kids in many states (for school-based ecas).
345: Not for marching-band students! Mwahaha!
Shorter 335 & 339: Welcome to the youth sports-industrial complex.
(Not that everyone won't have a great time, but eyes wide open and all that.)
309: my husband has written something similar, in addition to an actual philosophical dialogue about literary theory. perhaps you two should collaborate on a future project likely to be equally remunerative.
309: and, you know, the market for sustained, self-acknowledged gibberish died with the Rev. Dodgson.
I really think that Flippanter should return to his project. I am a strong supporter of sustained gibberish.
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Who was the eedjit a few threads back who was saying that the NYT's he said/she said reporting was the only thing standing in the way of a Murdoch monopoly?
http://pressthink.org/2011/09/if-he-said-she-said-journalism-is-irretrievably-lame-whats-better/ Scroll down.
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351: It was part of a larger gibberish-wrangling project comprised of short pieces ostensibly (but, you know, not very studiedly) representing the phantom entries composed for reference works as traps for plagiarists. I used to write them during conference calls at work.
352: I think that was me, but I was thinking less of the dangers of a growling Aussie monopoly than of progressives' tendencies toward oedipal neurosis and let's-all-get-in-the-reeducation-circle-and-shoot-one-another-in-the-foot dynamics. Hence my use of the term "hippies." Still, "eedjit"* isn't an entirely unfair criticism, I suppose.
* "Eejit"?
337: Supposedly, the advice to British soldiers on how to behave if captured is to be the Grey Man - avoid giving any sign of being any different from the dead-centre average of conformity in any way, as interrogators will latch on to it and (if you're lucky) use it to divide you from everyone else or (if you're not lucky) decide you're the one to torture.
