I have bitched previously about the stupid automated things their systems do that- surprise!- result in extra fees. Overdraft protection is the most notorious, but other things like bank account types automatically changing based on what they think you would like. Guess what, I would not like to start paying $15 a month for the privilege of being an entry in your database. And the customer service people always seem so mystified that these things keep happening on their own.
Mortgage broker mortgage broker mortgage broker mortgage broker mortgage broker mortgage broker. As long as you find a decent one, you'll save yourself a giant headache, and probably end up with better terms at the end of the day as well. At no out-of-pocket cost to you!
But (I think) two of the three people I'm trying to get quotes from are mortgage brokers!
If you write that you earned exactly $45,563.14 in 2009, any mortgage is automatically approved. It's a Masonic thing.
2: How does adding a middle layer of administration help you? And I'm not necessarily disputing that it does as we used a broker and it seemed to help us.
Because then you get treated like a business instead of a person!
6: I had to use haruspicy, but now the gate agent is calling TSA about the dead sheep.
Turning to the bitching, for the last several weeks I've been getting a call from a machine about 10 times a day from Fifth Third bank, telling me to please call 800-xxx-xxxx for important information about my account. Which, I'm not stupid, of course I don't have a Fifth-Third account. Calling the 800 number (which isn't any sort of special debt-collection number, it's their main damn general purpose number) requires literally 10 minutes of wading through machine voiceprompts that grow increasingly irritated with me when I repeatly fail to enter my Fifth Third account number as prompted, which I fail to do since no such thing exists, and then usually about 5-10 additional minutes of wait time, only to have someone eventually tell me "sorry for the inconvenience, we'll take your name off the list", and then for the calls to keep coming. I was extremely irritated about this yesterday (the computer called twice while I was in an important meeting for which I couldn't silence my phone b/c of childcare issues), and called and expressed my frustration at the issue to whoever I was talking to, and it took all my restraint to express it very politely, although I did so--I'm being serious, no yelling, no cursing--only to have the woman on the other end of the phone start BERATING me about how expressing frustration with HER wouldn't do anyone any good; SHE'S not the one calling me, etc. RAGE.
9: If it makes you feel better, their branch by my house got robbed not long ago.
It's a Masonic thing.
Having grown up in New England, with its many, many dilapidated or abandoned old Masonic halls,* I think I have a difficult time appreciating Masonic conspiracy theories. Put another way, the Masons are really letting down their putative Templar legacy.**
* The Esoteric Order of Dagon excepted, of course. Innsmouth represent!
** Unless that's the plan. Or is it?
Fifth Third bank
That is such a stupid name.
Bankrate.com aggregates mortgage rates, no personal information necessary for a rate list. Many credit unions post their rates on their websites; one that you'd definitely qualify for membership in is NASA FCU.
I found talking to national banks pretty frustrating and their rates noncompetitive when I refinanced.
Are there any credit unions you could get into? Our mortgage and the re-finance were both through the State Employee's Credit Union* here (which I have been with since I was 10 years old and lovelovelove) and they really made it a surprisingly easy process both times.
*Caveat: I have zero experience with any other credit unions.
Our mortgage experience was so horrible I don't think I can even talk about it. I was really sure for a while that we weren't going to get the house. The woman buying our other house (assuming today's inspection goes well) works at urple's non-bank and has all kinds of money to put down and should be fine as a buyer, I hope I hope I hope I hope.
I used to work for a bank providing mortgage information. It was straightforward -- people phoned up, we gave them a quote. Isn't that all you need to do here?
My personal experience with mortgage brokers was when I didn't know better. The guy helped, but in exactly the same way that a used car salesman helps when you need wheels and know nothing. I won't be doing that again, and would advise against it.
Mortgages are a little complicated in the US because your down payment, creditworthiness, and willingness to pay an upfront charge affect your rate, leaving aside ARMs (which are idiotic for normal people, IMO). Especially with brokers, don't expect a clear listing of all your choices.
I may have mentioned this before, but when NatWest get suspicious about transactions on my account, which seems to happen to me once every two months, and every single time I go abroad, how do they decide to communicate this to me? They give me an automated phone call asking for security details. Because it's not a security risk at all to encourage your customers to give out such details on unsolicited phone calls.
16: My experience was that there were all sorts of layers of paperwork apparently intended to con you into accepting a plenitude of fees large and small.
18: I spoke sharply to my credit union (which is who I've got a credit card through) over the same issue last summer -- they had a couple of months of deciding every damn thing I bought was suspicious and shutting my card off, and then they'd leave a message telling me to call an unfamiliar number and give whoever answered all of my security information. I called the number, told them I wouldn't be able to give them any information, called the credit union's regular number and asked them to straighten it out. I haven't had it happen again since that, but presumably the policy is still in effect.
9
Turning to the bitching, for the last several weeks I've been getting a call from a machine about 10 times a day from Fifth Third bank, telling me to please call 800-xxx-xxxx for important information about my account. Which, I'm not stupid, of course I don't have a Fifth-Third account ...
Isn't there something called a nocall list which is supposed to apply in this situation?
Huge range of mortgage brokers, I like mine a lot. Though I'm about to start a refi, so I'll let you know if that view changes.
||
Speaking of banker, don't panic Mr Mainwaring, but NMM to David Croft.
|>
I wish more people would understand how insensitive it is to overgeneralize about bankers. Most of them are very nice people, after all.
Fifth Third bank
-That is such a stupid name.
NOMINALIST.
I just gave my mortgage broker a call about a refi as well. I liked him, and he put together a better deal than any of the half-dozen local banks, local credit unions, or occasional national bank were able to manage. Particularly with anything that isn't 100% normal/conforming, I think the value-added is that they know which lenders will go for what kind of deal, in a comprehensive way that isn't available to someone just trying to do this once.
for the last several weeks I've been getting a call from a machine about 10 times a day from Fifth Third bank, telling me to please call 800-xxx-xxxx for important information about my account
I've gotten a few of these recently for a credit card I do not own. The first one was the worst, coming just before 7 in the morning while I was still sleeping.
22: I think that would block sales calls, but not what's happening to Urple, where the bank mistakenly thinks he has an account and is robocalling him about it.
Credit union, credit union, credit union!! Banks suck. Heebie, try UFCU. (The law in TX has changed, so you don't have to be connected with UT to be a member.) The other credit unions may be as good; UFCU is just the one I know.
At the very least, they'll be straightforward with you. My mortgage experience with them was excellent.
Put another way, the Masons are really letting down their putative Templar legacy.
But all the Templar temples are dilapidated and abandoned. Coincidence? I think not.
Banks suck.
Bankers, of course, are lovely.
re: 31
There's some in the UK in good nick and actual use. Not, allegedly, in use by yer actual templars, mind.
in good nick
I don't know what this means, but I plan to start using it immediately.
Didn't really occur to me that that's a British phrase.
Mortgage broker mortgage broker mortgage broker mortgage broker mortgage broker mortgage broker.
Even if you live in a country that doesn't rely entirely on originate-to-distribute this is still true. Ours (L&C) gave us an individual with a direct line phone number as a point of contact, and rapidly found a remarkably good deal.
Then the lender nixed me for - not being on the electoral roll. But I am on the electoral roll. I was amazed and vaguely disappointed that it wasn't any of my past giant overdrafts. Turns out their shitty database couldn't handle the idea that Mr X Xxxx might be on the roll at Flat x, xx x street, xville, XXx xXX - couldn't deal with the idea of multiple flats in a house.
L&C called them back, barked, and they rolled over. Hilariously, the lender in question is a mutual institution not a capitalist one.
Wait, I thought "nick" meant "steal." How many dialects do you people have?
re: 38
That too. And also can mean 'prison', and to be arrested. As in:
'You're nicked!'
'He's in the nick.'
'He nicked a couple of quid from the till.'
'It's in good nick for a P-reg.'
Hilariously, the lender in question is a mutual institution not a capitalist one.
In the capitalist state, cooperatives are no doubt collective capitalist institutions.
Oh, and:
'It'll cost you 20 nicker.'
39,41: Seriously? Is there some kind of explanation for this egregious state?
39. To avoid further confusion, a P-reg is a car registered in 1975/6, with the year denoted by a "P" prefix on the plate.
Egad. While we're at it, a friend of mine was complaining about the prevalence and inconsistency, in Brit literature high and low, of "old _____" locutions: old man, old boy, old thing, old bean, old chum, etc. Is there a taxonomy of these? We feel we're missing some nuances.
44: they're all pretty much synonymous and obsolete, I would say. And cognate with the French "mon vieux".
We would say "in good shape". Is that an American expression?
44 cont'd: the exception is "old man" which is still in use in London dialect. Your old man can be, depending on context, your father, your husband or your boss. Your old lady is your wife - though I haven't heard this in use.
48: London is full of biker gangs?
re: 42
That's what English is like, no? More here because of the long historical roots and regionalism, I suppose. Lots of overlapping dialects and slang.
Bankers, of course, are lovely.
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that all the earnest professional women at my CU are smoking hot.
I had the trouble with them putting a stop on my visa card when I leave the country (at which point they would call my cell phone, which often doesn't work abroad). The best solution, it turns out, is for me to drop by and have a chat before I go anywhere. Not that long a walk, I go every now and then anyway for various things (some clients still pay by paper check) usually in connection with lunch at one of the places nearby, and as for the bother, well, see the first sentence above.
39,41,,42
He caught sight of her in lime green knickers.
re: 48
Old man would still be used in Scotland a fair bit, too. Although elided to something akin to 'awlman', naturally. My Dad (Glaswegian) always refers/referred his dad as his 'awlman'.
People are always surprised to see the Helena Civic Center, which started out as a shriner thing. Once sharia gets established, interest will be gone.
The dialect that includes "our kid" doesn't appear enough in the mass media.
53: and in the north of Scotland, of course, it means "huge suggestively-shaped rock".
57: actually no. What does it mean? Does it imply no-goodness by way of incompetence or malice?
58: Pretty much. Wiktionary says it's from Russian via Yiddish, so not some garbled Scottish slang as I was wondering.
re: 57
I don't think, in the UK, there's that much Yiddish derived slang except as used by people of Jewish descent. My Dad used to use some, as he's from a bit of Glasgow that had a big Jewish population at one time, but not much.
I did always wonder where 'malinky' found its way into Scottish slang and the kids song. Polish? Russian?
lime green knickers
Not to be confused with knockers.
Her knockers were in good nick, so we necked and I nicked her knickers. Now I'm knackered.
Not to be confused with knockers.
Or nunchukkas.
Nunchucks: cool but useless.
Or nunchukkas.
Or knackers, for that matter, which in the anatomical sense of 'knackers' are so far as I know unrelated to being knackered, except per accidens.
Or knackers, for that matter, which in the anatomical sense of 'knackers' are so far as I know unrelated to being knackered, except per accidens.
I'm not so sure about that. I remember being told that knackered technically has a specific or at least original meaning of being sexually exhausted. That may be bollocks though. Or knacker, if you will.
Yeah, "knackered" presumably relates to being fit for the knacker's yard. The anatomical sense makes no sense in that context.
I remember being told that knackered technically has a specific or at least original meaning of being sexually exhausted.
Yeah, I've heard that too. Knackers yard makes more sense.
68: It doesn't come from the idea of being sent to the knackers because you're (a horse who's) all worn out?
A stallion doesn't go to the knacker's until his knackers are knackered.
I did always wonder where 'malinky' found its way into Scottish slang and the kids song. Polish? Russian?
Is that related to "malenky"? That's Russian via Clockwork Orange.
68: It doesn't come from the idea of being sent to the knackers because you're (a horse who's) all worn out?
On the other hand, even if the answer is yes, and 68 is a folk-etymology, I wonder if `knackers' in the sense of (literal) bollocks was invented based on that very folk-etymology. But I digress.
The foreclosures aren't frivolous. They're often bad for most parties involved, and often arguably illegal.
re: 73
Yeah. Same basic sense. It's a Slavic word. Czechs say that something is 'maly', or 'malinkaty'. It's used in Scots slang but it must have come into Scots or Scots English at some point before the 1930s.
17: A guy I knew through church is a real estate agent who, when he's acting as a buyer's broker, makes sure to take care of the financing aspect as well. A mutual friend who had bought a house before said that he did a great job.
Another endorsement here for a mortgage broker. The one we had was cheap and efficient, and got us a better rate than the bank.
But this was in 2000, in a different market climate. Is it really un-economical nowadays to refinance with a 2% cut in rate? We did it for 1% or so, and it took 2 years to get back our costs.
73, 76: not impossible. There were a lot of trade and cultural links between Scotland and Russia (and Poland) going back at least to the seventeenth century, so it's not impossible that Slavic words passed into Scots. I'll have to see if I can think of any others. Tsar Peter the Great had a Scottish court physician; I inherited a tent hanging that the doc got given by a visiting Tartar prince whom he had cured of something or other.
I wonder if it comes through Parlari or some such. Parlari has given us Chavs, Gaffers, Mingers (originally police, from whom you Scarper) and the Karsi. There are probably other such lingos if you know where to find them.
I inherited a tent hanging that the doc got given by a visiting Tartar prince whom he had cured of something or other.
Add a blushing yet anachronistically-self-actualizing young noblewoman and you could eke a bestseller and a movie deal out of just that sentence.
re: 80
I think Polari/Parlari is largely Romance-language in origin, rather than slavic. Lots of Romany origin words in British slang (via Parlari, I suppose) but not sure how many are slavic.
I read a couple of books on the minority languages of Britain - Polari, the various Romany languages (Anglo-Romani, Welsh Romani), the various forms of Scots, plus Shelta [Irish traveller's cant], and Scottish Traveller's cant [of which there are multiple varieties]. It's totally fascinating how long these languages have co-existed with English, and the flow of words back and forth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Travellers#Scottish_Traveller_Cant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Cant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beurla-reagaird
Heebie, try UFCU.
OMG. I was able to get a rate quote immediately off their website, and the quote is basically our current mortgage payment. And 3.75%.
3.75% is also what they tip, so they aren't perfect.
I went through the whole mortgage process while moving to Utah. I was treated with complete and utter suspicion because I was changing jobs. NEVER MIND that we bought a home for 1/3 what we could afford, had plenty of liquid assets because we had been saving for a down payment in California and had no problem providing 20% down.
One of my co-workers is 22 and has only been with the firm for a few months. He just bought a house with no problem even though his down payment was barely anything. They even counted his work-study job in college as part of his employment history.
A stallion doesn't go to the knacker's until his knackers are knackered.
85. Maybe there's something else about your co-worker that is different from you... maybe having to do with magic clothing and calling a pubescent squirt an elder?
83: Get a quote for a 15 year mortgage, too. It'll be lower than 3.75%. We refinanced the second time into a 15 year. There is something very nice about now having the mortgage paid off.
89: It looks like it'd be about $500 more per month.
Can I just complain about someone? If someone says GUESS HOW MUCH I SAVED!!, the correct answer is to give a normal estimate of the cost. If you give a really great price, you either stole their thunder or totally wrecked their story.
"Guess how much I paid for this awesome shirt from the GAP?"
"Maybe $25?"
"Nope! I scored it for only $15! I'm so great."
Compare with:
"Guess how much I paid for this awesome shirt from the GAP?"
"$6?"
"No...I guess I overpaid."
Do the former, folks. Don't be like Jammies.
Not entirely OT, suppose someone unexpectedly inherited a modest but nontrivial amount of money (~$30,000). What should that person do with it? Paying down debt is obvious, but all this person's debts are at very low fixed rates, and that wouldn't be enough to pay any of them off entirely (thereby eliminating a payment altogether), so I'm not sure that makes sense. Should it just be kept as emergency savings (this person's emergency savings are otherwise precariously low, and he doesn't have a lot of capacity to add to them otherwise). Or a college fund for kids? A new roof (this person's roof happens to be old and leaky)? Or should it be blown on something like a sports car, which is what the deceased would have wanted for this person? How much does it cost to renovate a kitchen?
90: "Guess how much I saved" and "guess how much I paid" are two very different questions.
Also, if someone is telling a joke, and you realize halfway through that you know the joke, don't tell the punchline. Even if you're the only person listening to the joke. Maybe it's not the joke you thought it was, and part of the set-up is to rely on the other known joke. Or even if you were right, just let it go.
That isn't something Jammies does. Just something that nobody should do. Since I'm already sharing wisdom.
92: But the nature of the temptation to give an obnoxious answer is equivalent in either formulation.
92: but "$6" is a non-thunder-stealing answer to the question "guess how much I saved on this shirt", but a thunder-stealing answer to "guess how much I paid for this shirt."
91: As the situation is described, get a roof, put leftovers in emergency savings.
95: I think it's fair to assume the hypothetical dialogue is supposed to be read like all other dialogue ever, instead of having the first sentence discarded and replaced by some other sentence from the previous paragraph.
If someone says GUESS HOW MUCH I SAVED!!
I'm the sort of killjoy who says things like "Not as much as if you hadn't bought the shirt at all."
91 -- Hire a lawyer. For 30k, she/he can find something to pursue.
I think you can spend as much as you want on a kitchen. And more.
I'd tend to blow 10% on frivolity, and then put the 90% aside for future non-frivolities.
I said "Guess how low our mortgage payment might be!!" and Jammies gave a number that was $150 lower than our existing mortgage on our old house. OBNOXIOUS.
Or should it be blown on something like a sports car, which is what the deceased would have wanted for this person?
Since none of these other smug sensible types will advise you to do this, I will. Will the psychic happiness of reducing your debt by $100/month or whatever, or getting granite countertops, be worth the cost of not having, say, a Ford Focus ST, which you could buy for the $30,000 and have some money to put towards your rainy day fund.
98: but then your first paragraph makes no sense. "If someone says GUESS HOW MUCH I SAVED!!, the correct answer is to give a normal estimate of the cost." Let's try a hypothetical:
"GUESS HOW MUCH I SAVED!!"
"$25??" [a normal estimate of the cost]
"No...I guess I overpaid."
I vote for the new roof + emergency fund.
Also, if someone is telling a joke, and you realize halfway through that you know the joke, don't tell the punchline.
It's an old chestnut! I've heard you tell it 27 times!
If the roof is causing damage, that sounds like the priority. Hold out for a future robot car.
You should be able to get the Focus ST and also pay for the roof.
98: When you say the first paragraph makes no sense, do you mean "when ordinary people read it" or "when some Vulcan-aspie reads it with pathological literalness" ?
The roof isn't leaking at the moment, but is old and so develops leaks roughly twice a year, which have to be repaired, which is a headache and an expense. And does at least some damage each time before getting fixed.
But it seems like such a scam to replace a roof myself. Everyone else I know with a new roof has an insurance company to thank.
My mother left my sister and me a bit more than that but not a life changing amount. I got a kitchen extension; she got a Lotus. I think both were valid decisions.
And does at least some damage each time before getting fixed.
Well, in that case, new roof for you, my lad.
Vulcan-aspie
I have no idea what this means, but based on context I'm going to assume I've just been insulted.
I wonder if I could just put a tarp over the entire top of my house. I bet I could custom order an extra-large tarp for less than a new roof.
It's nothing too terrible. Off to teach!
Also, are you sure that the leaks mean that your roof is too old? Leaks could be just from old worn out flashing in random places. FOCUS ST.
115: A few times a year--why?
107 is a very intriguing prospect, although I'm not sure the numbers work.
Hailstorms seem to be the major cause of insurance-funded roof replacements where I'm at.
91: A kitchen-remodeling show I saw put a nice kitchen in renovation at about $15k. You could do it for *so much less.* But! You have to tell us all the weird things you cook (or just eat) there.
kitchen-remodeling show I saw put a nice kitchen in renovation at about $15k.
That's pretty low, at least for around here.
Also, are you sure that the leaks mean that your roof is too old? Leaks could be just from old worn out flashing in random places.
Well, I don't know, no, but that's what all three roofers who have come to look at it have said. The insurance company agrees with you, though, and says it's just a bit of bad flashing. But the roof is 86 years old, and the expected life for that sort of roof is only 50 years, apparently, so it's not impossible that it's going bad.
modest but nontrivial amount of money (~$30,000)
Is anyone else boggling at this descriptor? $30,000 is modest?!
122: agreed, bad word choice. I meant very-nice-but-not-fundamentally-life-altering. Or something like that.
In the context of an inheritance that's roughly how I'd expect people to use those words. 100k wouldn't be modest and 2K wouldn't be nontrivial. Without a number I wouldn't know where to guess between 10k and 40k.
$15k sounds like a cheap kitchen remodel to me. Cabinets, in particular, seem to be intensely expensive in ways that I would never have guessed.
An 86-year-old roof is in bad need of replacement, unless it's slate, maybe.
121. The roofers want you to give them lots of money for a new roof. The insurance company wants to give as little money as they can get away with. That much is given and has very little to say about the actual condition of the thing.
OTOH, 86 years is very old for any type of roof. What kind of roof is it? If it leaks twice a year is it always in the same place - is it compatible with a simple flashing problem? What kind of damage are you sustaining?
127: it's tile. And I guess at that age they get brittle and break with any hail or even small tree branches, etc. I'd say it's definitely not a flashing problem, since the one roofer who fixed what the insurance company said was definitely a flashing problem did so by replacing a few tiles, without touching any of the flashing. And I suppose I could go on forever just replacing them a few at a time. But that's a headache, and does damage the interior plaster, etc.
does damage the interior plaster
By which I mean, the only way I know it's leaking is when I see new damage inside.
118: Here, too. I got a new roof courtesy of my insurance company about 7 years ago after a hailstorm.
It sounds like there are a lot of votes for new roof. And a split between emergency fund and Focus ST for the balance.
128/9. New roof. No further discussion required unless you're i. putting it on the market immediately AND ii. think you can bribe your purchaser's surveyor AND iii. are a completely immoral bastard.
Oh wait, it's a tile roof? I saw 86 years and thought "replace that sucker immediately." But with tile you can easily have roofs that last 100 years or more and have only metal flashing problems, or places where spot repairs can work. You could try finding a roofing contractor who will come over and identify problems and replace those, rather than replacing everything. OTOH if you do want to replace everything it will be very hard to fully replace the tile roof and get the Focus ST. OTOOH given that you can replace the tile a little at a time, you can just wait for a giant hailstorm or tornado or hurricane or whatever they have east of the Sierras to hit and have the insurance pay for it.
So, in conclusion, Focus ST.
133: I actually agree with Halford except that I have no interest in sports cars.
OTOH if you do want to replace everything it will be very hard to fully replace the tile roof and get the Focus ST
Well, it wouldn't necessarily be a tile roof once I was done replacing it, but it's a fair point: I think even removal of those things is more expensive than if it were just shingles.
Old worn out flashing in random places leads to being put on the sex offenders register, not leaks.
Hmm, we can't afford to totally redo our roof (part slate, part shingle at this point, with the slate damaged enough that the historical accuracy people will let us replace it with shingles) and now I guess I need to just hope for a good hailstorm to make it not our problem. Our across-the-street neighbors had a giant tree fall on their house in June and are just now moving from covered-in-tarps to fixed thanks to delays on the insurance side, though, so maybe I should keep just expecting to have to pay to replace the roof next summer.
Put some, urple, into one of those tax deferred college savings accounts.
139: Those are a great way to avoiding paying tax on capital gains. The best way to avoid paying taxes on capital gains is to invest without being rich enouugh to have the rules twisted in your favor so you can have a capital gain.
Having a mortgage broker is nice but doesn't prevent the bank from coming up with endless obstacles. In our case everything was going great until we got to the mortgage insurance clowns, who rejected the appraisal on the house. Conversation goes like this:
"How can they reject the appraisal?"
"They're nervous right now about insuring anything because they took a big hit in the downturn. They agree that you're a great borrower, but they're being very cautious and they want to know what the house is worth before they insure it."
"Gee, if only there were some kind of independent means of determining the value of a property! Maybe we could hire an independent appraiser who would tell us what it is... wait a minute..."
and another one like this, after two weeks of being dicked around:
"No one thinks you're a bad risk. I want you to know that everyone's willing to lend you money. They just want to be sure that if they have to foreclose on the house they'll get their money back." [I like the idea that what I'm really concerned with is what the bank thinks of me, rather than the loan.]
"Do they understand how credit ratings work? Come to think of it, it would explain the whole crisis if they're this confused."
"They say there haven't been enough properties sold that are comparable to your house for them to determine the value."
"Well, I think we have an explanation why no properties are selling."
We closed eventually, and our broker was great, but I think he earned most of his fee by shielding the PMI clowns from my wrath.
House? Does that mean you've got a long-term job? If so, sweet.
(Of course, I'm being nosy. Ignore if so.)
140: but the thing is, that's all totally right. The bank is just concerned about getting their money back. The insurance company really does just want not to lose its shirt. They probably just think your appraiser was full of shit, which isn't a surprise because most of them are.
Basically, a market that depends on long-term secured financing from banks in order to function is going to be completely nonfunctional in a period of declining prices. The only reason it's even working as well as it is (pitiably well though that is) is that so many people's incomes depend on having it work, so a lot of the individuals working at the banks and the appraisal companies and the insurance companies etc. all massage the numbers enough to give an appearance that they add up, in order to earn their fees, but each one is trying hard to pass the responsibility for the number fudging off on the others, in case shit eventually hits the fan. Which creates a lot of potential for stalemate. But not nearly as much stalemate as there would be if everyone were being honest about the whole charade.
It is indeed sweet! Except for having to do lawn maintenance.
"Do they understand how credit ratings work? Come to think of it, it would explain the whole crisis if they're this confused."
Actually, one big source of the crisis was the idea that if a borrower had a sufficient credit rating, the value of the collateral (along with the borrower's capacity, the third "C" of traditional underwriting) didn't matter. This turned out to be a terrible idea. Good credit risks still lose jobs or have medical bankruptcies.
The insurance company really does just want not to lose its shirt.
According to my broker it's extremely rare for the PMI guys to reject the appraisal when the bank thinks the appraisal is fine. I mean, part of "not losing your shirt" is "is this person a good risk?", and the house was not a stretch for us, as we can afford it on one income.
147: but it sounded like no one was evaluating whether you were a "good risk", they were evaluating whether there was sufficient collateral.
It is indeed sweet! Except for having to do lawn maintenance.
It's a fine pass indeed when highly qualified academics are reduced to mowing lawns for a living.
Congrats on the sweet gig.
Right, and the bank accepted that there was sufficient collateral. It worked out, but it did throw everyone for a loop.
the bank accepted that there was sufficient collateral
And the bank would be paid by the mortgage insurance company if that was wrong.
140: "They say there haven't been enough properties sold that are comparable to your house for them to determine the value."
...
They obviously don't actually know what a good appraisal looks like. If the worst thing about that appraisal is that there aren't many good comps available, then that's a pretty good appraisal.
At least they didn't tell the appraiser to come back with a higher value...
On the other hand, if you're dealing with PMI (which really oughtn't exist), you were making a fairly low down payment. For low-equity loans the lender or insurer is going to want to be very sure that the equity is in fact real and you won't immediately be underwater, which is harder to show in a thin market. Strategic default is not super rare anymore, and the events of recent years show the problems with making a loan based on credit history alone.
The best/worst appraiser comment I've heard:
Investigator: "These comps are all superior to the property you were appraising. Look here, at these other comps that are actually similar to the subject property. Why didn't you use those"
Suspect Appraiser: "But if I'd used those comps, the value would have come in too low!"
Kinda-sorta on-topic...there's a good chance I'll try to sell my apartment (hoping just to break even on my down payment--guess when I bought!) in a year or two, but if I decide I should keep it longer this is my question: given that I spent all my extra money the first year filling the place with vintage mid-century stuff, would it be totally moronic to redo the bathroom, which is drab and unappealing but the only part of the place with any authentic mid-century anything (to wit: the tiling on the walls)?
Bonus question: would going back to renting mean I'm a complete fool? The deal is I can afford to rent in neighborhoods I could never, ever afford to buy in. The neighborhoods I can afford to buy in are affordable for a reason!
When I was 16 or thereabouts, a fiftysomething acquaintance of our family at a couple of hops in the drunkest building gang around addressed me as "our kid" in the pub. I was full of pride.
Man, could you sublet it and rent elsewhere? Unless the market recovers a whole lot, selling anything in our neighborhood is ugly these days.
I wouldn't redo the bathroom unless it's in the sort of bad shape that means you can't keep it clean, but I like mid-century drab.
91: Definitely spend some of the inheritance on hookers and blow. Or Fluevogs, either way. Do not be responsible with all of it.
You could ask the hookers to wear the Fluevogs.
The deceased would have definitely strongly preferred the money be spent frivolously, but I'm not sure she would have approved of hookers and blow. I'm also not sure how much weight her preferences should be given at this point.
Hookers would be nice, though. But I've never really priced them. How many sex acts will $30,000 buy?
I know it's a pain in the ass, Smearcase, but if you can hold onto your apartment and rent it out while you live elsewhere, it will very probably be better for you in the long run. A good heuristic for building wealth is never sell property.
A good heuristic for building wealth is never sell property.
Especially at a loss.
Fix your roof and buy a memorable experience, Mount McKinley and Chichen Itza are both nice, nearly domestic.
Sale Fluevogs are reasonably priced, built to last, though slim pickings in my size. Rockport went to shit after New Balance bought them.
If the worst thing about that appraisal is that there aren't many good comps available, then that's a pretty good appraisal.
That was the only problem. No comps from the last six months. (Eight months, yes.) They eventually accepted the original number so it wasn't a crazy appraisal.
On the other hand, if you're dealing with PMI (which really oughtn't exist), you were making a fairly low down payment.
I completely agree that they should be careful about lending, but, you know, one reason that they were insisting on comps that didn't exist was that they weren't careful in 2007. As I wasn't doing anything with them in 2007 nor managing the finances of the people who were, this is not the kind of reasoning that makes me sympathetic to their plight six days before closing.
(Even though I am glad that they are being more careful.)
My votes are for redo the roof and to wait on the bathroom unless you're handy and want to do a project.
Slang: "oul' fella" & "oul' lad" have similar meanings in Ireland, esp. Dublin (usually father but sometimes husband). "Oul' dear" really always means mother but "oul' wan" mean mother or wife, as in the song "The Waxie's Dargle". (Monto, referred to in the song, was the old red light district that features in the Nighttown episode of Ulysses.)
Banks are inventing extra hoops here too. I suspect that they want to be seen to be granting reasonable nos. of loan approvals but they don't really want to have much lending.
I find that co-op living is like the expense of buying with the restrictions of renting. It makes me a little insane. I can sublet for three years total, ever. And I can only get one-year leases. And there's a sublet fee I'd pay to the coop that means, given what things rent for in my neighborhood, I would not break even. In fact I think I'd end up paying $100+/mo to cover the shortfall.
You could ask the hookers to wear break in the Fluevogs. That's the worst part them.
166: Hookers use strange street names theses days.
Could Smearcase sublet his apartment to hookers, and take both rent and a cut of the profits? That would solve all problems at once.
Urple could show up, get a hooker at the discount Smearcase rate, and still get a new Focus ST.
If you just get a discreet enough hooker, the co-op board would be none the wiser.
Anyhow, to the OP, I, unlike all of you geniuses, am disturbingly close to being underwater. If I can get to the other side of that line, refinancing riches await! But I have to get there.
Or rather, I may be there already. Who knows? Zillow.com doesn't. I should probably stop talking to myself now.
174: Pimping might not be the solution to all problems, but I suppose it is the solution to some problems.
177: You need a crooked appraiser.
That Focus ST actually looks pretty great.
Sounds like Halford may soon be the hooker he's suggesting for Smearcase's apartment.
More seriously, my parents are doing fine for now - pretty well by many standards - but there is an x such that if their house does not rise in value within x number of years, they'll be in trouble. Fortunately, there's no need to sell right now. The people across the street lost big (albeit in a slightly tougher market a couple of years ago) but also moved to a lower cost part of the country, so I think it ended up being a wash. Also, they had jobs where they moved to. My parents are retired and one of their kids seems to be chronically out of a job all the time.
"Be the hooker you want to see in Smearcase's apartment." -Gandhi
Given that he probably died before you had an apartment, he is very amazing.
168: If anything, you're overstating the case for sympathy. Mostly, they don't actually know how to underwrite a loan, so they make up a bunch of rules - cargo cult underwriting, essentially. When the market was booming, they tookmake away rules without understanding whatyour they meant. When bad thinngs happened, they added more rules, again with no real understanding. People like you face the consequences. But no matter how harshly they treat customers now, it won't undo 2005-2007.
176: You might be able to refi while underwater if Fannie or Freddie owns your loan:
https://www.efanniemae.com/sf/mha/mharefi/
Doesn't even have to be with the same loan originator.
185: those double words should be "took" and "what". Stupid droid keeps guessing, even though I told it not to.
Another bitch to the OP- large banks are now blocking online access from financial aggregator sites like mint.com because one of the purposes of those sites is to send warnings to avoid fees (ie, balance below some threshold) and notifications of when fees are charged and instructions on how to avoid them. Of course this is an unacceptable use of your own financial information so it must be stopped since it violates the banks' first amendment rights when customers pay less in fees.
A good heuristic for building wealth is never sell property.
Please tell this to the friend of mine who keeps taking it upon himself to opine that I should sell my mom's house up in NH (on a lake!) forthwith. Not that I'm remotely near the realm of building wealth, but honestly, why would I sell the place now, taking a loss on something like a third of its value in this shitty market, unless I absolutely have to? I have eventually told said friend, in not quite so many words, but close enough, to shut up already, end of discussion.
A good heuristic for building wealth is never sell property.
165 notwithstanding, I'm actually not sure that when taxes and insurance and, if relevant, any condo or co-op fees are taken into account, that this is a good heuristic at all, even if a property is paid for, especially where you face subleasing restrictions like those described in 170. Holding onto an assets that costs you a not-insigificant amount of money every month, solely in the hope of future appreciation, doesn't actually strike me as a good path at all to even modest accumulation of wealth. It seems like a terrible idea, actually.
If you can sublease in a way so as to fully cover your own expense, that's a different story.
Somebody with poor taste should make a "190 to ?" joke.
190: Yes. Uh, sort of. It's to my cousin who hasn't actually paid his rent in a while, but that's a technicality. Which I do have to deal with, yes. Yes. I know.
But the house is paid off; only out-of-pocket expenses on my part are property taxes and insurance. I can't do that much longer without basically throwing my cousin out, but again, that's a technicality, and will unfortunately probably have to happen. The friend I mentioned thinks I should throw in the towel, and this strikes me as ridiculously premature.
193: People unwilling to evict for nonpayment shouldn't own property as an investment.
Make your cousin work for Smearcase to pay the debt.
Also, if you're unable to lease out the property for cash income, your "never sell" heuristic would produce, at best (i.e., assuming rapid appreciation), purely unrealizable paper wealth. What good would it do you to have a valuable asset that throws off no cash and that you can't sell? (Sure, it could have some insurance value, in that you could sell it if you ever "had to", but property isn't especially liquid--if you're going to get a fair price, that's going to take at least a little time, which makes it bad insurance for emergencies.) And you'd still be putting cash into it (taxes+insurance+any other fees) all along.
In short: Smearcase, if you don't want to live there, sell sell sell.
Or, the only other reasonable option: lobby the co-op board to change the silly rules restricting leases.
191: Plus cost of capital.
I suspect that the relatiion betwen owning property and wealth is confounded by the fact that only savers hold onto savings as property. Also by home price trends which may no longer hold.
194: Yes, dear. Suffice it to say that I've learned a lesson: never rent to your relatives. I'm still not going to give up after only 2 years. (By the way, I'm not owning it as an investment: it's an asset, and I'm not going to dump it at a loss of, like, $100K, just because I have a stupid cousin.)
I'm wishing I hadn't refinanced from a 30 year to a 15 year a few years back. Yes, the interest rate was much better, but I built up equity so fast that, when the market crashed, it was all my money that evaporated, instead of the bank's.
And now I have just enough equity left so that its not worth my while to strategically default, even though that would make my life a hell of a lot easier, given that we haven't lived in the house for a year, it ain't selling, and I'm still paying the damn mortgage.
Buying a house was my worst investment, ever.
Well, it all depends. If Smearcase can tolerably live with paying (rent in new neighborhood+cost of the mortgage+taxes+fees+insurance)-(income from the one year sublet), it does seem like really a terrible idea to sell right now.
Why not get into a new neighborhood he likes now, make some of the money back from the rental income, and sell in three years, when there's at least a very decent chance the property market will be better?
201: well, yeah, that's sort of what I was getting at in 165--definitely if you think prices are temporarily deflated right now, then it might be a bad time to sell. (That's a big "if", though, I think.) The rest of my 191-196 was just picking at the general heuristic that not sellnig was somehow very likely to be wealth enhancing long-term. Mostly because I'm proscratinating from work.
My assumption is that if NY real estate is not a good long term investment, then essentially nothing else a normal person can put money into is a good long term investment either, because that means the entire financial system is collapsing.
Of course, investing in bullets and your personal survival skills always makes sense.
Is three years "long term" in your mind?
I would also think the Tokyo real estate market in the 80s and 90s might make you question the assumption of 203. Even dynamic, dense urban metropolises can go through prolonged real estate slumps (without necessarily bringing about the collapse of the global financial system).
No. There is that. I guess if I had to guess, I'd say at least 5 more years of housing misery.
LA in the 1990s was another example of a bizarrely and somewhat inexplicably long-term depressed housing market. Sweet Jesus do I wish I had bought then instead of in the genius year 2006.
LA in the 1990s was another example of a bizarrely and somewhat inexplicably long-term depressed housing market.
Post-Magic, pre-Shaq+Kobe. Of course the housing market would be despressed.
It was a dark time. Speaking of which, we are all Baltimoreans tonight and tomorrow.
"of which" not exactly precise.
we are all Baltimoreans tonight and tomorrow
Don't be an ass, dude. We're so close to a rapproachment.
Oh, I've probably just jinxed it and they will now win the WS. Still, I'd like to go to this unbelievably despicable location and distribute copies of this article.
209: How bout 'dem O's, Hon?
Its nice to have a reason to watch my team in September, for a change.
212: I realize you don't have a lot of positive ways to be a baseball fan in your town these days, but couldn't you just, like, donate $20 to research into traumatic brain injury rehab and call it a season?
(Wait, that didn't help at all, did it?)
199: I was not without sympathy when I wrote 194. In general, I am horrible about making people give me money.
Having my dad down to watch Orioles-Red Sox here in town was enjoyable back in the day. (I was for the Sox, of course. Family trumps adopted town, plus just memories of going to Fenway. I mean, how could I switch allegiance? Not possible.)
Baseball has a Boston-LA rivalry? I guess you could have Boston-LA rivalries in everything, regardless of past competition, or quality of competition, but that seems silly.
"Mom's house on a lake in NH" sounds like something I'd pay to keep if I could. As my financial success was prefigured by the Brothers Grimm in The Boy who Couldn't Feel his Flesh Creep, this is probably terrible financial advice.
218: no; Halford is just a weirdo.
If there's one thing you can always say in baseball, it's wait 'til next year!
29
I think that would block sales calls, but not what's happening to Urple, where the bank mistakenly thinks he has an account and is robocalling him about it.
Regardless of what they think isn't it illegal for them to be calling (if he is on the nocall list)?
224: no, not if it isn't a sales call.
No, there's no Boston/LA baseball rivalry, just general dislike for Boston sports fans who are weirdly common and vocal and annoying out here. Also Frank McCourt, the most evil man on earth, is from Boston and much is made of that if you're conspiratorially inclined.
Traditionally of course the Yankees and Dodgers were rivals, and I still have a faint personal memory of that time, lingering in my the dark places of my mind along with things like how a corduroy jacket smelled in 1978.
The thing in 217 is great news; one step closer to wrenching the team from the hands of McCourt.
No, there's no Boston/LA baseball rivalry, just general dislike for Boston sports fans who are weirdly common and vocal and annoying out here.
This is more-or-less generalizable as the Boston/Not Boston rivalry.
189
... why would I sell the place now, taking a loss on something like a third of its value in this shitty market, ...
What makes you think it is worth more than you could sell it for? You wouldn't be comparing to the bubble peak would you?
Boston sports fans who are weirdly common
On the one hand: it's not that weird. There are a shitload of Yankees fans in LA, too, and in general the fact that there's lots of movement from a city overfull of higher education and literate types to the cities with the most creative jobs is not surprising. The greater Boston MSA is not, as it turns out, that small, but young creative people pretty much get the hell out of dodge, at least for a while, and they always go to NYC, SF, or LA.
On the other hand: that doesn't fully explain the population of Red Sox (and Yankees) fans in cities outside of Boston and New York. There are definitely other effects going on there.
On the third hand: you know how many fucking Lakers fans there are all over the damned country? What's that about?
Remember that thing when LeBron talked about growing up a fan of the Yankees and the Lakers? I mean, that's just horrible, right?
224, 225: I thought you had to have some kind of "business relationship" with them or it was a sales call. If they are mistaking urple for somebody with whom they have such a relationship and do not provide him with a plausible means of letting them know he is somebody else, I would that think this is (or at least should be) against the law.
I would that think this is (or at least should be) against the law
I admit I don't know the details of whatever law is being referred to here, so it's possible this is actually against the law (although I sort of doubt it), but, as a general matter: in a lot of consumer protection law, and especially as it relates to privacy in telecommunications, your intuitions about what "should be" against the law are going to give you almost zero information about what actually is against the law. Reasoning from one to the other just gets nowhere.
220: Pretty much. For now, anyway.
228: It's a particular circumstance: it's essentially a charming and enjoyable lakeside cottage (with hardwood floors, a big stone hearth fireplace, notable frontage on the lake, with a dock and a mountain view across the lake, etc.) which is suitable as a second/vacation home for the moderately moneyed, say, in their 40s. Kids love it. There's a ski mountain (small) across the way. So no, I don't think I'm comparing it to bubble prices. Those in the market for something like that, if and when we sell it, which I'd rather not do at all, of course, since I dearly love the place, will recover from this crisis more readily than the rest of us, and I'd be a fool to ditch the place if I can possibly help it.
And now I see we're talking about the Do Not Call registry, which, no. "Only telemarketing calls are covered -- that is, calls that solicit sales of goods or services."
232: I know, but I always tell the guy on the phone that he's breaking the "Do Not Call" law and that I am logging this and all future calls. It seems to work better than swearing, if you can speak to a person.
How much would you be willing to sell for parsimon?
that doesn't fully explain the population of Red Sox (and Yankees) fans in cities outside of Boston and New York. There are definitely other effects going on there.
I swear it's because Fenway is cool. At least, I sure as hell thought it was, like 25 years ago. Maybe it's awful now. Also, Yaz. I don't know what's up with the Yankees fans.
230 -- yes, a good general rule is that if you are a fan of more than one of the Lakers, Yankees, and Cowboys, there is something wrong with you.
When a respresentative on the other side of the line tells me that a call is being recorded (usually "for customer assurance purposes"), I'll usually say "Okay--I'm recording the call from this side as well." That usually throws them for quite a loop. I don't think it's in their protocol.
236 really needs a comma in there somewhere.
240: Have you ever tried asking for a second take if you misspoke?
I don't know what's up with the Yankees fans.
Anyone over the age of 65 probably has fond memories of Joe DiMaggio. And that's certainly understandable. There's no excuse for anyone else, of course.
Maybe it's awful now.
No, it's still awesome.
Also, Yaz.
I... I hate to be the one, but... oh man, this is hard. Well, listen. He... he retired.
230: Isn't LeBron sort of horrible anyway? Cough choke cough choke cough Delonte West cough whining like a little bitch cough.
The idea of continuing to live in a neighborhood I don't like in the name of building wealth is...troubling to me. I'd rather accept that this was a bad decision and start building wealth at 39 or 40 after a false start at 35. Pwned at 191 sorta and maybe more thereafter. Let's see.
Or, the only other reasonable option: lobby the co-op board to change the silly rules restricting leases.
They changed it from two years because of the economy. I hate coops. And I forgot how to type a dieresis again.
246.1: It's like ":" but sideways and higher.
Why not get into a new neighborhood he likes now, make some of the money back from the rental income, and sell in three years, when there's at least a very decent chance the property market will be better?
Unless I'm misunderstanding, you're misunderstanding. I'd lose about $100/month on it at present. And then I'd have to move back in three years from now to sell it, having exhausted the amount of time I'm permitted to sublet it.
Why would you have to move back into it to sell it?
All sports fans in every city are awful, but what's uniquely annoying about Boston fans is the need to tell everyone that their teams are so important no really you just don't understand my deep love for blah blah blah and the assumption that everyone in the world should also root for/care about them. Yankees fans are obviously entitled, but at least they don't do that.
And with that, Boston just won, but at least so did Tampa Bay.
248: So the question is whether you think the value is going to increase more than $1,200 from what you could get today for each year you sublet and wait to sell it.
248 -- the theory only makes sense if you think the property market will improve in the next three years, which seems somewhat likely. You're taking a $1200/year bet that the apartment will be more valuable when you sell than it is now (or that the co-op board will change policy and let you sublet for longer) which seems like a pretty good bet to me. But the co-op's restrictions on subletting does instantly drain a huge amount of value from the apartment, that's for sure.
249: well, ok, I could leave it empty and pay my mortgage and maintenance while also paying for wherever I'm living, but I'm not seeing how this is a good plan.
253: People sell houses with tenants all the time.
The people you rent to might have nicer stuff than you so the place would look better.
[W]hat's uniquely annoying about Boston fans is the need to tell everyone that their teams are so important no really you just don't understand my deep love for blah blah blah....
I'm right here, you know.
90: One of my favourite bits of Dr Katz: Professional Therapist is the one where Ben is thrilled at winning $500 on a scratch-ticket, but has his thunder comprehensively stolen when he asks Laura to guess how much he won (see 7.30-10.00).
As far as the bathroom, I'd generally think you aren't going to get back what you put into a bathroom renovation, especially since buyers may have their own ideas about what should be done with the bathroom, but a studio buyer in your neighborhood is likely to want a place they can just move into, and will probably be comparing to new construction projects, so renovating to a generic modern standard might actually pay off.
251, 252: Well, it's a modest metric but given that I have no evidence property values have gone up at all in the last three years, I don't see why I should assume they will in the next three years except for my innate rosy view of things.
Also $100 a month is hardly meaningless to me. It's not make-or-break as it would have been at my salary when I moved here seven years ago, but for an as-of-yet imaginary gain in three years, I'd probably just trade $100 a month and the ability to wash my hands of a bad decision. I liked New York a great deal more when I rented an even smaller studio in midtown.
People sell houses with tenants all the time.
I think you missed the part where I said I can only sublet for three years, or else I'm missing something myself.
I... I hate to be the one, but... oh man, this is hard. Well, listen. He... he retired.
I heard about that! Seriously, though, when I was a kid and we had season tickets, it was all about Yaz (and others, admittedly, as time went on), and so, that was just it. It was exciting to young me, as communicated by my dad, and since I'm not really a team sports person in my adulthood, that identification and affiliation has lasted.
As for Fenway, all I can say is that this new Orioles stadium here has freaking gigantic neon on its exterior. Ew. Or maybe that's the Ravens stadium. Whatever. No class.
(This is actually kind of great. The bathroom question wasn't meant as a full-fledged Ask the Mineshaft but I'm glad of the opportunity to toss the broader question of selling around.)
Shoot, I just remembered we have at least one Baltimore sports fan in our midst. I apologize for my words about the stadia. Realize that this is all mired in nostalgia for me; it's not about the teams or anything like that. I apologize.
260: NYC real estate is probably different, but I wouldn't call it subletting, since you own it. You're just renting it out as far as I can tell (and maybe I can't because of the coöp thing). A very many people rent out places and they show them to potential buyers while they are rented. That may be illegal/impractical in your case, but I certainly see it happening here. To be clear, it is suboptimal as far as showing the place.
Yeah, maybe you should just sell. That 3-year restriction on subletting really deeply screwed you over. My guess is that you won't come close to recapturing what you spend on a bathroom remodel, but what do I know.
It's technically subletting in an NYC coöp, because rather than owning your apartment you own shares in a non-profit from which you lease your apartment, but it's basically renting it out. You can show and sell while it's rented, you just need a buyer who's willing to wait to move in until the lease is up. Plus it's a hassle for your tenants, who may not be coöperative about cleaning up for a showing.
Sell! Sell! Sell! Move! Somewhere or other!
268: Isn't being a landlord, even to the extent of a sublease, sort of a colossal, miserable pain in the neck in NYC?
Isn't New Jersey the trendy area now?
OT: What precisely is the value proposition contemplated in those "My name? Keith Stone. [wildcat growl]" beer commercials? The advertised beer will make me an even more unkempt slacker, this time in a trucker hat?
New Jersey and you Smearcase. Perfect together.
Camden yards is a beautiful stadium. One of the best, and certainly the most influential stadium in recent times.
Orioles stadium here has freaking gigantic neon on its exterior. Ew. Or maybe that's the Ravens stadium. Whatever. No class.
That's the Ravens stadium. Oriole Park at Camden Yards is a work of art, and I'll thank you for not blaspheming.
Somebody on the radio said that the Ravens were the Browns and therefore evil. Nobody on the radio seems to worry much about the Orioles one way or another.
I'll thank you for not blaspheming.
Right. I liked Memorial Stadium.
I take your point, though, I take your point!
Somebody on the radio said that the Ravens were the Browns and therefore evil.
But Ray Lewis pled out on the obstruction of justice charges in that double murder case! An evil man would never be on the cover of Sports Illustrated with the legend "God's Linebacker"!
Sometimes I think about the whole coop thing where you don't actually own your home and wonder who the fuck thinks this is a good way to do things.
It seems kind of socialist to me, but what do I know.
Sometimes I think about the whole coop thing where you don't actually own your home and wonder who the fuck thinks this is a good way to do things.
Chickens generally find it hard to raise the down-payment, so they have no choice.
Chickens generally find it hard to raise the down-payment
That's why Itza had to get unorthodox.
All this talk of baseball and no sympathy for Ozzie Guillén's tragic forthcoming departure from the White Sox? You people are heartless.
If he is going to the Pirates, he has my sympathy.
I would not have predicted, in June, that the Dodgers would end up with a winning record and not the Pirates, but here we are.
In April, what would you have predicted?
I just learned a new feature on my phone and more I can make funny letters (for example, ö, ê, even œ) without looking up codes. ¿Great, no?
(12) The term telephone solicitation means the initiation of a telephone call or message for the purpose of encouraging the purchase or rental of, or investment in, property, goods, or services, which is transmitted to any person, but such term does not include a call or message:
(i) To any person with that person's prior express invitation or permission;
(ii) To any person with whom the caller has an established business relationship; or
(iii) By or on behalf of a tax-exempt nonprofit organization.
So probably not covered by the rules, I think - the call is not specifically excluded, but arguably not expressly included either.
I'm gonna come right out and say that the building-wealth heuristic does not hold up in the face of the three-years-of-subletting rule. I'm gonna further come right out and guess that if you have tenants in your apt, it will be at least somewhat difficult for the coop board to dislodge them when the three-year-buzzer goes off. But it's still not a good long-term wealth-building plan. I'm gonna further further come right out and fess up that "heuristic" was maybe a schmuck word up there.
Camden Yards is a very fine stadium. Saw Hideo Nomo pitch the first no-hitter there 10 years ago: terrific game, and the Orioles fans were on their feet cheering for Nomo, a real class act.
the Ravens were the Browns and therefore evil
The Orioles were the Browns. I don't think they're evil. I certainly do not appreciate having to root for the Yankees tomorrow.
The Cleveland Browns moved to Baltimore but were stripped of the name "Browns" and all of the institutional/recordbook history of the Franchise. The current Browns, though really an expansion team, took over all of the Browns history. And the Ravens were considered officially an expansion team. I think; it was kind of confusing.
I probably knew back when I paid attention to baseball that the St. Louis Browns moved to Baltimore. Anyway, that's an odd coincidence. Also, wikipedia* tells me that the Yankees were founded in Baltimore, where they were called the Orioles.* So if you feel bad rooting for the Yankees, pretend you're rooting for the Orioles.
*Disambiguation.
**And that there was a National League team called the Orioles for a while. Coached by John McGraw who later coached the Giants. In New York.
My former, owes-me-a-ton-of-money-(still) housemate is moving to Baltimore. Apparently, there's a hopping warehouse-squatting scene there. Look for good art coming out of B-more in the next year or two.
One of the most amazing things I ever saw live at a game was Ozzie Guillén hit a grand slam at Comiskey. Guillén was the prototypical defensive short-stop with no power. The most number of home runs he hit in a season, in a long, long career, was 4. I just checked, and that was apparently his only career grand slam, in nearly 6700 at-bats.
Yes, that was so embarrassing I had to be pseudonymous.
This week is making me really resentful of my 4-7pm (as in, exactly when east coast baseball is on) M-Th tutoring schedule. Today's games were intense enough just checking m.mlb.com every fifteen minutes, but seeing the highlights afterwards--Jesus. The Yankees hit into a triple play with the bases loaded when they're up by one?! The Sox, with Varitek hurt and Saltalamaccia slumping, send out their September callup catcher--who played most of the season in AA--to start, and he hits two HRs for 4 RBIs, and would have had another two RBIs if not for a ridiculously awesome catch by Markakis? The Cardinals coming back from 5-0 to tie the NL WC with one game left? Incredible. What a day of baseball. And I missed all of it.
Well, except for the Giants game, but really, who gives a fuck?
Speaking of "who gives a fuck?"--Tampa Bay just does not deserve the Rays. MLB should admit that they fucked up, and give the Rays to Montreal. Florida has proven it doesn't deserve even one team, let alone two.
Snearcase, sorry to ask an intrusive question, but how did you finance this thing? My grandmother lived in a co-op after she sold her house, and she paid cash. I thought that you couldn't get mortgages on them, so if you weren't paying cash you had to take out a personal loan which, of course, isn't deductible.
my belated pronouncements on the thread:
baltimore is a great town but the whole "vacants" thing really is creepy.
no one not born and/or raised in NY may root for the yankees at any time, under any circumstances. ditto dallas cowboys. sorry, black people who inexplicably support dallas for no fucking reason. what, deion sanders wooed you or some shit by prancing around on a 95-yard kickoff return touchdown? no. and sorry people from boston, you all suck qua sports fans. except my beloved family members from massachusetts. maybe sifu and flippanter can apply for a similar exception.
urple should probably fix the roof but I would take the whole family to the maldives. it wouldn't even cost all of it! you only live once, and all. then again I am a profligate wastrel and only survive because people keep giving me money for no reason (other than heredity). although I have also started a successful business and can now pay myself a decent wage, so that's nice. the possibility that I might additionally actually get rich running my furniture store/ID firm is hilarious both to me and my entire family. but fuck yeah, bring on the success! and um, little leather sacks of loose gemstones or whatever. fuck.
dude said something promising yesterday (texting from afghanistan where he was going to some loya jerga peace meeting that failed to obtain any peace, (and why is he going to things like that if he doesn't still work for the US gov't?)) that I was "lucky to have such a happy marriage." that is not really the words of a dude who is expecting you to have sex with him soon IMO. though my sponsee averred this was just his way of saying what a great wife I was and thus consistent with improper intentions.
301: No, you can get regular mortgages on coops. (There may be some technical difference which you'd think a lawyer would understand, but I, in fact, don't. But in practice it's the same -- we're in a coop and have a mortgage and the interest is tax deductible.)
The subletting requirements aren't just the coop being controlling -- the issue is that banks have a problem lending to coops that aren't over some high percentage owner-occupied. So if there are too many subletters in the building, new purchasers can't get mortgages.
Argh. With only three years, I probably wouldn't bet on prices going up much, and going down is a real possibility. If you had ten years, that'd be different.
303.last: Sounds to me like he has improper intentions, or at least desires, but whatever you're doing is working as management. I wouldn't be surprised by a confession of true love, but if that's what he's saying, you're in a good spot for turning him down without offense because you don't do that kind of thing.
that is not really the words of a dude who is expecting you to have sex with him soon IMO.
Yes, it is, of a devious, undermining, passive-aggressive sort.
that is not really the words of a dude who is expecting you to have sex with him soon IMO
Unless he is fishing for "Despite appearances, I'm secretly unhappy/lonely/frustrated."
Whether or not he expects to have sex with you, his message is most definitely consistent with (wistfully) hoping/wishing to have sex with you, and therefore with grasping at slender threads of hope.
Pwned! Flippanter, what are you even doing out of bed at this hour?
Conference calls at 8 and 9. At least, being only a consultant, I can take them in my pajamas.
What the conference call was doing in your pajamas, you may never know.
Inside of a conference call, it's too dark to read.
Or so the conference would have you believe.
301, 304: It does limit the number of lenders you can use, though; since it's somewhat more specialized knowledge how to underwrite that kind of loan (specifically the collateral piece).
Interestingly, in practice co-ops turn out to be safer properties to lend on than condos, probably due to accidents of history and locatioon.
313
Interestingly, in practice co-ops turn out to be safer properties to lend on than condos, probably due to accidents of history and locatioon.
It seems possible that this also has something to do with buyers needing to get board approval. Some boards at least impose high financial standards.
314: Plausible, though in recent years it probably has more to do with the fact that there are basically no co-ops in Florida
315
Plausible, though in recent years it probably has more to do with the fact that there are basically no co-ops in Florida
OK, condos in Florida vrs coops in NY is not apples to apples. How about condos and coops in the same location?
Both condos and coops are made of atoms and therefore mostly empty shells, but they can't occupy the same space.
We should build an accelerator that can collide a condo and an anti-condo. We could keep at it until the housing supply is limited enough to support rising prices or we discover a boson.
For God's sake, Euro-people, get the hell on the call that you requested.
sorry, black people who inexplicably support dallas for no fucking reason.
Is this aimed specifically at Na-Tehisi (sic)? Or is there another such oddity in the universe?
And the general idea that buying property is some sort of automatic road to wealth is nonsense. Property can be a terrible investment and managing property requires some skills that can be expensive to acquire by trial and error.
Mister Smearcase, I vote that you should create a Sneercase alter ego. And I don't know what to say about bathrooms except that maybe you have a decent real estate agent in your circle of acquaintances you could ask, which is what we did. I'm very happy that the bathrooms and kitchens in our new place hadn't been updated to generic McMansionesque modern styles. Lee insisted on completely redoing the very small bathroom downstairs, which I think cost something like 4K or so. It looks so much better, but that was to replace a shower with saggy linoleum on its walls and a special faucet for washing the small dog, so change was more necessary.
We're selling our old house for less than Lee spent to buy it but for enough to pay off the mortgage. Having it gone will be such a relief that it's worth not holding onto hope that someday things would have gotten better and we could have gotten more.
320: nah, there's lots of dc/baltimore black people who support the cowboys because all the white people (and the right-thinking, hometown-pride black people) are rooting for the redskins in their classic rivalry. ta-nehisi is one of many.
306/7: yeah. someone who has "jokingly" declared not only that he is in love with you but that he is "building a shrine" is probably not letting go of all hope there. still, a step up from his previous, really too flirty texts. a shrine. FML.
the humorous thing is that my husband is relatively unfazed because he assumes that all my male friends who aren't gay are in love with me, and maybe some of the gay ones. this is really charming faith in my sexiness, if you think about it.
I think it's really hard to do an apples to apples coop to condo comparison, because coops are so heavily concentrated in NYC and tend to be better buildings in NYC (someone buying a condo in NYC, I'd sort of wonder about shoddy construction, thievish managing agents and so on, not because there's any logical connection between condos and shadiness, but that in this specific location, I know more people who have had that sort of problem with condos than with coops. The problems you have with coops are endless wrangling with your neighbors and the board, which is different.) So, for historical reasons I don't understand, coops are going to generally look better, but I don't think it's got anything to do with the legal form.
On the Smearcase bathroom -- is there minimal work that might make it look better? Replacing faucets with ones in the same style, but the chrome still on them? Recaulking the tub, refinishing the tub if it needs it? New towel bar? New mirror on the medicine cabinet? Our bathrooms were sort of ghastly, and we put a grand or so into sprucing them up without doing any real work, and they're much nicer now.
I'm just thinking an NYC apartment bathroom isn't plausibly going to be a real selling point, it's a tiny room where you can get clean. If you have a respectable version of midcentury drab without spending money on it, I don't think modern fixtures will get you a higher selling price.
323 -- Stewart Udall's threat to George Preston Marshall: not a trivial thing.
323: hmmm, I guess I only knew "right-thinking" black people when I lived in the DC area.
There are actually perfectly sound historical reasons for D.C. Blacks to feel alienated from the Redskins.
Which is why, my understanding is, the Redskins were for a long time (maybe still are) the semi-official NFL team of the South.
329: Sure. And yet were there any blacks that weren't rooting for the Redskins in Super Bowl XXII?
Well, I suppose there must have been a few.
330 -- That ended in the mid-60s, with addition of the Falcons and Saints. (I do not count the Cowboys in this, despite having the Ft Worth prejudice against Dallas as "southern" -- we were where the west begins')
332: I was a Redskins fan as a kid, because NC was in their viewing territory (pre-Panthers), so they were the team that was on TV every Sunday.
325: I think that has to do with the fact that co-ops tend to be older than condos, especially in New York, because condos are a recent legal innovation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condominium#United_States
In short, condo vs co-op is a proxy for other things that for various reasons are harder to use for underwriting. (Age of borrower, quality of neighbors, age of neighborhood, etc.)
there's lots of dc/baltimore black people who support the cowboys because all the white people (and the right-thinking, hometown-pride black people) are rooting for the redskins in their classic rivalry. ta-nehisi is one of many.
Its a lot more Baltimore that DC, and with Baltimore its not just black people. Its because the Baltimore Colts snuck out of town in 1983 to become the Evil Indianapolis Colts, and a lot of remaining Colts fans weren't about to become Redskins fans, so the became Cowboys fans as a way of hating on the Redskins. Of course, then the Ravens showed up and most of the city went over to them.
If I cared much about football, I'd be a Redskins fan.