For a second I thought LB had posted this and it was going to be a story about her son.
It's worth pointing out that Newt's position on immigration is not totally insane.
Newt Gingrich Pledges To Build Double Fence Along Entire Mexico Border
As other candidates attack him for being too soft on unauthorized immigration, Republican presidential candidate Newt Gingrich signed a pledge on Thursday to build a double fence along the entirety of the southern border of the United States.
The former Speaker of the House promised in the Americans for Border Security pledge to construct a complete double border fence between the United States and Mexico by the end of 2013, should he become president. Only one other GOP presidential candidate, Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.), has signed the pledge so far....
Gingrich has since [being attacked for his call for a "humane" immigration policy] been on the defense on immigration, attempting to boost his tough-on-immigration bona fides by decrying "amnesty" and praising a South Carolina law that mimics Arizona's S.B. 1070 by allowing police to ask about immigration status.
A double fence! Because just one fence would be SOFT ON IMMIGRATION.
How about "English as the official language" but people have to start speaking it more correctly? That would bother nearly everybody equally.
A double fence? Is that sorta like that other Republican dude wearing two wetsuits?
As 2 evidences, Gingrich's position on immigration is completely and totally insane. It only appears not to be totally insane when judged in comparison to the even-more-completely-and-totally-insane positions of various other Republicans.
(Although, let's be fair: if we're measuring objectively, most Democrats' positions on immigration are mostly insane. Just less insane than the alternatives.)
I could support a second, back up fence. Along the northern border of Texas.
8: It would need to go over Oklahoma as well.
5. There has to be a legal guest worker program, but its management must be outsourced to a sophisticated manager of anti-fraud systems, such as American Express, Visa, or Mastercard.
This is where you realize he's not actually thinking coherently so much as spouting random shit that a focus group spat out of it's collect ass.
(I object to the English-only thing much more than I object to the fence. Border control seems right or wrong depending on the details.)
What's particularly amusing is that he thinks he's going to build a 3000-mile double wall in two years. It took longer than that just to add a few lanes to the 15 miles of I-85 that runs through Durham.
(I object to the English-only thing much more than I object to the fence. Border control seems right or wrong depending on the details.)
Sure, and we can surely count on Newt to get the details right.
But generally, sure--I object to praising a South Carolina law that mimics Arizona's S.B. 1070 much more than I object to the fence. The fence isn't the worst thing in the world. But package the fence (double fence!) together with the English-only thing and the South Carolina thing, and the proposition that "Newt's position on immigration is not totally insane" starts to look a bit strained, don't you think?
Why not three fences? Four? More? We must not have a fence gap gap.
Isn't it basically that he's trying to bridge the gap between the kickemallout right's shibboleths and the business community's interests? He wants a guest worker program but to get it has no problem with infusing it with racist gestures and deliberately cruel features so that it comes off as an Arizona- or Mississippi-style initiative to enough people. (Not sure this is working.)
I don't know why I said "community" there. I think my job is getting to me.
Other early 90s relic Newtisms: the Six Sigma fetish. I mean, Six Sigma! It's hardly the new new thing is it!
This is where you realize he's not actually thinking coherently so much as spouting random shit that a focus group spat out of it's collect ass.
Why not three fences? Four? More?
Lotta good reasons to build a big, tall coule of border fences. Then you can fill the middle with raked gravel to look for footsteps.
Why not three fences? Four? More? We must not have a fence gap gap.
Probably only because not many people are calling for two yet. Once that gains traction, I'm sure the Bachmanns and Gingrichs of the world will call for three! or four! or more! fences. It's a proven strategy.
20: well, ideally I think you have a 15 km deep Border Special Zone in which the police check your documents for Zone residence permits or valid exit visas, then a warning wire, a signal wire hooked up to trembler alarms, two main mesh fences or walls 150m apart with a flattened death strip between them, sown with anti-personnel mines, and overwatched by regularly spaced machine-gun sangars with interlocking fields of fire and minimised dead ground.
I hate to break it to you, Newt, but, notwithstanding the fact that there is technically no official language in the US, the de facto official language of government is indeed English. There are no tranlators on Capitol Hill, THOMAS is only in English, court hearings are in English.
23: the machine-guns are old fashioned. Now you just use armed drones.
The border special zone is already in place, you'll be glad to hear.
4: Better than hunting people down in their homes. If it satisfies the anti-immigrant right (at least enough to split off enough people to make the issue less important) then it's a good compromise, I think.
A double fence would increase the amount of time would-be entrants would spend in a highly monitored area where they could be picked up and returned home.
well, ideally I think you have a 15 km deep Border Special Zone
We have that already, only it extends 100 miles.
An incomplete list of things a double fence is better than:
-hunting people down in their homes
-a triple fence
-a triple electric fence with alligators
-English as official language
-authorizing citizens to shoot on sight people that look suspiciously like illegal immigrants
-enslaving illegal immigrants in work camps
I honestly can't mentally parse "double fence" except to the tune of "Double Rainbow". That it exists as an idea that's got some credence with actual humans who aren't joking on the internet boggles the mind.
Vaguely related to the Onion links, this from them was spot-on.
There are multiple categories of Onion headlines, and that one in 39 falls into "Wince because it needed to be said."
On the topic of a different ridiculous Republican hopeful wandering into reality-meets-Onion territory: "Dear Mrs. Cain Don't pay attention to these pathetic husbandless women who are jealous of women like you in happy long-term marriages."
14:
once again, China is way ahead of us on this. they've had a border fence for thousands of years.
Too bad it didn't keep out the Fire Nation.
43: which was, IIRC, built at least in part as a full-employment programme!
In other Republicans-are-unserious-and-insane news, we actually live in a world where Senate Republican have countered Democratic proposals to increase taxes on millionaires and billionaires not by raising their taxes but by "making them ineligible for unemployment compensation and food stamps and increasing their Medicare premiums".
46: It is almost too-perfect that that bit of information is down in paragraph four of a story titled "G.O.P. and Democrats Differ on How to Prevent Social Security Payroll Tax Increase." In other news, Views Differ on Shape of Earth.
In other Republicans-are-unserious-and-insane news, we actually live in a world where Senate Republican have countered Democratic proposals to increase taxes on millionaires and billionaires not by raising their taxes but by "making them ineligible for unemployment compensation and food stamps and increasing their Medicare premiums".
Outrageous! The law, in its majestic equality, allows the rich as well as the poor to subsist on food stamps.
34: Current law is not all that far from "hunting people down in their homes," though mostly people are OK if they keep their heads down and don't call attention to themselves. But that's a bad way to live. Replacing that with strict border enforcement would be a genuine improvement, I think, so proposing the swap (which is I think Gingrich's implication) is not crazy.
-a triple electric fence with alligators
Would help Florida to have a major export product...
46: I didn't know Medicare premiums were voluntary. I would have thought they were compulsory, like a tax...
17: Now that's a genuine example of NG's crazy talk.
|| Just wanted to update folks on tomorrow's FCS playoff action. Tomorrow, the Flinty Libertarians from UNH play my alma mater over the divide, and here at home, it's the Griz versus the Slackjawed Yokels of Central Arkansas. I'll forego live-commenting, you'll be glad to hear.|>
While food stamp eligibility ends at the federal poverty level, it's a little-known fact that it restarts at 100xFPL and up.
I ate ten fruit roll-ups for lunch. Feeling kinda ill.
A border fence would be pretty bad for a number of wild species, IIRC. It splits their ranges. A complete DMZ that no-one goes into after setting the land mines is said to be better for a lot of wildlife than is human habitation... lightweight wildlife, I assume, though Nick Harkaway does muse on how sheep could adapt to minefields, eventually.
56: Wild species can apply for a visa just like anyone else.
Nick Harkaway does muse on how sheep could adapt to minefields, eventually.
I don't know who that is, but he either has the best job in the world or a really sick hobby.
how sheep could adapt to minefields, eventually
Steel wool, natch.
so proposing the swap (which is I think Gingrich's implication) is not crazy
It is somewhat crazy to think that this is Gingrich's implication. What he is saying, in essence, is that he supports immigration, but exclusively for the purpose of maintaining low wages.
*The immigration system is a mess, but being obsessed about immigration from Mexico is outdated; immigration from Mexico is way down in the recession, and Mexico is going through a demographic transition as we speak. Even the horrible drug war doesn't seem to be propping it up that much.
Mexico is going through a demographic transition as we speak
Fuckers. Why aren't they listening?
56.
consider it a way to drive allopatric speciation.
the GOP is really trying to find a way to encourage new species of gila monsters.
the GOP is really trying to find a way to encourage new species of gila monsters
Edited for clarity.
The border fence comments are even more insane when you realize that 800+ miles of the US/Mexico border is a river. The Rio Grande, to be precise.
notwithstanding the fact that there is technically no official language in the US, the de facto official language of government is indeed English. There are no translators on Capitol Hill, THOMAS is only in English, court hearings are in English.
This is correct. However, just to clarify, some of the state-level English Only bills include provisions making it illegal for any state, municipal, or local official to conduct any official business in a language other than English. The practical effect is to make it impossible for, say, a city council member to have a meeting in Chinatown and answer a question about zoning issues in Chinese.
I haven't read the national-level English only bills to see if they have similar provisions, but it's worth pointing out that English's dominant status notwithstanding, enacting English-Only does have an immediate negative impact in the ability of citizens, especially elderly citizens, to communicate with representatives of their government.
11: Border control Re-education seems right or wrong depending on the details. So lay off the Pol Pot criticism everyone.
They already built the damn fence, which is why Newt and co. are now arguing for a double one. Nothing gets in the way of successful demagoguery like the demagogue's proposals actually being implemented.
The border fence comments are even more insane when you realize that 800+ miles of the US/Mexico border is a river. The Rio Grande, to be precise.
There are people who don't realize this? I thought it was common knowledge. Otherwise the term "wetback" wouldn't make much sense.
And speaking of draconian state immigration laws, Alabama's keeps resulting in arrests of visiting executives of the foreign car companies that own factories there. I find this hilarious.
The "fence" is one of the Shames of the Nation. Not sure if it makes it in the top 7. As a kid I was always, "So there were seven wonders of the Ancient World, hmm ... OK, adults are weird." Didn't keep me from always trying to remember them. Could never remember the freaking Mausoleum of Halicarnassus (and forgot it trying to recall them just now).
Otherwise the term "wetback" wouldn't make much sense.
I did not know that had been definitively established as the etymology (sweaty back of farm laborer's shirt was the one I first heard). Whatever it may be, this 1920 NY Times piece ("WELCOMED MEXICAN INVASION; Thousands of Families Crossing the Border to Till the Soil and Otherwise Build Up the Southwest. 100,000 in the Northward Movement. Replacing the Drift to Cities. Entering the Sugar Beet Field. Qualities to Be Reckoned With. Bilingual New Mexico.") cited in the Wikipedia article on "wetback" is both really something to read on its own, as well as probably being pretty much in alignment with Newt's current position.A few choice quotes:
It was an invasion by an industrious simple-minded agricultural people looking for work.
The latter [a Mexican's "old woman"] seldom has any claim to good looks, but, surrounded by a numerous brood of offspring, is either as corpulent as a mediaeval friar or stringy and lean, but her man would not think of moving without her. Perhaps the fact that she can be counted on to find food for him when all his efforts fail, has something to do with that.
The sentimental and the cruel find their expression in the thrumming on mandolin or guitar of some hunting, plaintive air, while, as he sings with half-closed eyes, the Mexican dreams of just where he will plant his knife in his pet enemy.I'd be interested in teo's take on the bilingual Mexico part of the piece (including the legislature).
There are people who don't realize this? I thought it was common knowledge.
IME, about 75-80% of the people I talk to in the Northeastern United States do not know it. I mentioned it int this thread because I knew there was at least one non-American commenting, and as savvy as an individual person might be, I figured it was worth not making assumptions.
Could never remember the freaking Mausoleum of Halicarnassus
Dude, there's a replica right in town.
72 surprises me, but I was so into geography as a kid that I have no accurate sense of what people do and don't know.
73: Ha! All 3 of my kids had HS graduations there and I never knew that. I am duly chastised. Still pretty obscure for a "wonder".
I thought that was just the mechanical stuff for the parking garage.
I'd be interested in teo's take on the bilingual Mexico part of the piece (including the legislature).
He seems to be conflating the then-recent influx of Mexican immigrants with the longstanding Hispanic population in NM. All that stuff about bilingualism and so forth is true, but the powerful position of (some) New Mexico Hispanics long predated the wave of immigration from Mexico spurred by the Mexican Revolution, which mostly went to other states. I believe it was actually around this time that NM Hispanics began really trying to differentiate themselves from "Mexicans," which hadn't been an issue before when immigration was very low.
76: Differentiate themselves by changing their last name to R/chardson?
having an Official Language doesn't necessarily mean that you have Language-Only restrictions. Lots of countries have multiple official languages. Usually it means that official documents etc have to be published in all of them.
Not that I think that's what anyone is talking about re: the US.
Asking English-Only nutters what they think deaf people should do is an interesting way to make them splutter and backtrack.
Do they realize that ALS is another language and not just English by other means?
Sometimes. Not always*. Mostly it just hasn't occurred to them to think about it.
*This is true of many hearing people, regardless of their politics.
Asking English-Only nutters what they think deaf people should do is an interesting way to make them splutter and backtrack.
This often also happens when mentioning Native American languages, interestingly enough.
Anyway when the conversation is suddenly about whether or not ASL is a language and what best practices in deaf education are, they fumble and walk themselves back a lot and it is very satisfying.
For reasons that aren't totally clear to me, the similar tactic of telling people that 25 states currently have English as the only official language, and those 25 states do not have any better outcomes in anything language-related than the other 25, including the 2 with dual official language, doesn't work as well. I guess because it makes people less uncomfortable than talking shit about deaf people.
(It's possible that this is only because they would be talking shit about deaf people, to a deaf person, but I'm pretty sure I've had the conversation when the other person didn't know I was deaf.)
82: oh yeah, I can see that.
I think it's that they just start the whole thing with an internal definition of "English-only" meaning "not Spanish" (or maybe not Somali or not some other language of a large local immigrant population), and haven't thought through any of the implications.
People who don't think through implications infuriate me.
I've had conversations where the other person didn't know I was able to hear them.
I didn't really want to click over to Newt's election campaign page, but since I was guessing about what he was after with the "English as official language", figured I'd see. Under the relevant Item 9, it's specified:
Teaching everyone English creates a common commercial and political culture.We want people to come to America to become Americans.
For over 250 years there has been an emphasis on learning English as part of that process.
This probably means he'd like to see some kind of requirement that an English competency exam be passed before citizenship is granted. Doesn't France have something like that? (I could should look that up, but I'm slightly annoyed by the mess my housemate has left in the kitchen and am going to do some !?*%@$?! dishes.)
Erm -- but really, doesn't France have a sort of 'you must demonstrate the relevant Frenchness before you gain French citizenship' set of requirements?
On the language tip, here's a great video from a young Anishinaabe rapper that is almost entirely shot in my neighborhood: http://youtu.be/kwrkaPtgJvU
86: I don't think that pointing that out helps. There are anti-immigrant types who point out that the U.S. is one of the few countries where being born here gets you citizenship even if your parents were not citizens.
I almost like this one better, even though it's less technically accomplished. Ojibwe is such a great choice for hip-hop/spoken word/poetry etc. as there's a strong tradition of wordplay and neologisms. And it's the 2nd-most widely spoken indigenous language north of the Rio Grande.
Technically, Klingon is an indigenous North American language.
Ojibwe is such a great choice for hip-hop/spoken word/poetry etc. as there's a strong tradition of wordplay and neologisms. And it's the 2nd-most widely spoken indigenous language north of the Rio Grande.
The first being Navajo, of course, which AFAIK doesn't have anything like this so far, maybe because the Navajos still aren't very urbanized compared to many other tribes (although that's changing rapidly).
91: Moby, I agree with you -- technically. Technically, communism works. Technically.
88: the U.S. is one of the few countries where being born here gets you citizenship even if your parents were not citizens.
Is that true? If so, I'm surprised, which reflects the fact that I'm deeply ignorant about worldwide citizenship policies.
I seem to recall, by the way, that I became apprised of France's policy in this regard in the context of a NYRB (?) piece a couple of years ago on the particulars of that country's attempt to ban the wearing of headscarves by Muslim women; the article went on to explain that this was an extension of France's relatively stringent and nationalistic immigration/citizenship policy, which differs notably from that of the US (and, I thought, of other countries).
Except for the US and Canada, none of the other wealthy nations offer citizenship to the children of people not there legally. I don't think you have to actually be a child of a citizen to be a natural citizen in most of Europe, but your parents have to be somehow legal.
86: A colleague, who went for his citizenship exam on Thursday, had to go through an English-proficency test.
I don't think you have to actually be a child of a citizen to be a natural citizen in most of Europe, but your parents have to be somehow legal.
Ah. That explains some of my confusion: I have friends who were born of (apparently legal) immigrants to another country, who have citizenship in that country therefore.
If you want to see somebody angry, you should try to watch an English (as in from London) graduate student learn that he must, as a non-native graduate student, pass an English proficiency exam before being allowed to teach Ohioans.
96: Hm. Again my ignorance kicks in. I wonder whether the English proficiency exam is a relatively recent change.
It's all quite byzantine. I have friends who've been granted citizenship through marriage to an American citizen, and they definitely didn't have to pass an English exam. Setting any future policy about these things would, in any case, require a thorough understanding of current policy. My sympathy and appreciation for the kind of work Witt does only increases over time.
This probably means he'd like to see some kind of requirement that an English competency exam be passed before citizenship is granted.
We already have that requirement. It's pretty modest, which may be why your friends who married Americans didn't remark on it as a major part of the citizenship test (the test includes speaking simple English sentences, writing simple English sentences, and answering 10 randomly chosen American Civics questions out of a predetermined set of 100 questions).
But it's been in place a long time. It's not a new thing.
(There are exceptions. A handful of people are allowed to bring an interpreter with them and take the civics part of the test in their home language. This includes some elderly people and some senior citizens -- not necessarily elderly, just 55+ -- who have been green-card holders for a long time before they apply for citizenship. If you have a profound mental disability or if there is another reason that a doctor will certify you as unable to learn new information -- e.g. a prior stroke -- you can also be excused from the English or citizenship parts of the test.)
The "no birthright citizenship" clauses in many other countries often have extremely serious consequences. One of the big recent instances was after the 2010 Haitian earthquake -- people of Haitian descent who were born in the neighboring Dominican Republic or the Bahamas are often stateless, and of course that makes things like getting a passport or visa exceptionally difficult.
I have always thought that birthright citizenship and free, guaranteed K-12 public education were the two most powerful engines of immigrant integration that our country has. It's incredibly depressing to watch them being assaulted.
Anyway when the conversation is suddenly about whether or not ASL is a language and what best practices in deaf education are, they fumble and walk themselves back a lot and it is very satisfying.
Oh man, I so wish I could be a fly on the wall for one of those conversations.
I think it's that they just start the whole thing with an internal definition of "English-only" meaning "not Spanish" (or maybe not Somali or not some other language of a large local immigrant population), and haven't thought through any of the implications.
Boy is that true. And they will go through enormous contortions to justify it. PA is home to 300K Puerto Ricans, including 100K born in Puerto Rico. PR, of course, is a US territory and has two official languages. Ask an English-Only zealot how we should constitutionally handle the fact that people who are US citizens are being legally educated in US public schools in Spanish and then coming to the mainland and they go into all kinds of justifications that pretty much boil down to "They can't possibly be Real Americans (tm)."
Sometimes when I am feeling particularly cranky I am tempted to say "It sounds like you wish we had lost the Spanish-American War. Is that what you're saying?"
But it's been in place a long time. It's not a new thing.
Thanks for this information. I didn't know.
My grandmother took and passed some version of the English exam, and she pretty much clearly did not know much English. She was over 70, so it might have been a modified exam, but she definitely learned some phrases and history for it.
Speaking of Newt, has anyone seen that Maureen Dowd actually wrote a good column on him, one that is appropriately angry instead of lame and snarky? Can't remember ever seeing that from her.
103: I actually read that by accident, the first time I can remember reading Dowd in about 7 or 8 years. It wasn't bad, although I liked the original blog post (by the woman Dowd quotes who actually went and read Newt's dissertation on microfilm) better.
Overall, though, I'm feeling about the Republican 2012 race the way I was feeling about the deficit/debt discussions before the Occupy movement -- why in the name of heaven are we squandering our precious, precious time and attention on any of this hogwash?
Periodically I think about doing some sustained and pointed criticism of political journalism. Bah.
I thought about the Republican race for twenty minutes or so a while back, figured Romney was the nominee as the only non-patently ridiculous option, and have been blocking it out barring some snickering at anything silly that I don't manage to avoid seeing. The thing is, there's no point worrying about it -- Romney's less ridiculous than the rest of them, but there's no reason at all to think he'd do less damage than anyone else.
Huh. My university has access to the whole text of the Gingrich diss (kind of unusual for a dissertation published in the 1970s).
Historian will look back at the 2012 Republican nomination race, and find that it's most important effect was to show Sarah Palin to be the smartest of the bunch.
(That is, the real action is jockeying to see who comes in second -- and is thus the Republican front-runner for 2016. It's true that Romney might win the general in 2012, but none of the also rans ever had a shot at beating him, and while they'll support him, none will be sorry when his administration founders because (a) the problems are real and (b) conservative solutions -- and only half measures will be enacted (because Romney is a RINO, they'll say) -- will make them worse.)
I feel like in a different nation, where the Republican and Democratic parties did not exist, you could put Obama and Romney in a room as individuals and they would be maybe 5 or 10 percent apart. (This is both a criticism of Obama and praise for Romney). Romney is a smart, qualified guy attached to a crazy party. When you elect the person you elect the party. Not sure how that would play out if he won.