Most of the federal law enforcement professionals I've met wear uniforms over which they have little or no control.
That said, my own office is super-informal (most people wear jeans), and while I've never really paid close attention to people's shoes, I wouldn't be surprised if some women wore peep-toe ones when its warmer out. This time of year everyone wears boots of various kinds, of course.
Yes, I was going to say there are times/places where boots are unavoidable. Lots of federal offices have something that is almost like a uniform but a million times less convenient since you have to construct it yourself. You see an excess of dowdy on the DC metro.
There's an FBI office down the street from my office. I walk by it all the time, but I try not to linger.
So I haven't noticed what sort of shoes the women there wear.
why not linger? I mean, I hate, fear and avoid cops, but I'm crazy. you're an exceptionally law-abiding young man; it's not as though there's a statue of felix dzherzhinksy outside. linger sometime.
maybe there are cute FBI agents? wearing boots, for sure, but you could let that slide. it's sort of weird trying to be friends with people who are cops though, because the whole time you're thinking, "he wanted to be a cop. he must be an aspiring sadistic bully." but that's not always true, maybe, sometime. ever.
at least you figure the feds are smart.
Boots that aren't under pants generally? That's going to be iffy unless you're a creative, and even then everything else you're wearing has to be mind-numbing in its aggressive, Thatcher-like sexlessness.
This is crazy talk. The calf-high-boots-over-jeans look that's been in the past couple of years is totes appropriate for office wear.
It's possible my sense of appropriateness has been somewhat crippled by my location and chosen industry, though.
It's an exceptionally uninviting place to linger. Faceless modern architecture surrounded by bomb-proof planters and festooned with security cameras.
I can't wear peep-toe shoes because of that toe nail fungus thing.
ha, look at the last mug shot of iron felix, from 1916. his jaw's already disfigured from the beatings in prison but he's really got this look like, the shoe's going to be on the other foot pretty soon, pal.
josh: dude, FBI agents do not wear jeans. there's a kind of mind-numbingly boring office appropriateness you may not be able to fully understand if you haven't seen enough lobbyists and white-shoe law-firm interns milling about. I think calf-high boots over pants look great but I doubt any woman has worn them to, say prosecute a case as an ADA or anything recently. or go to her desk at cadwalader, wickersham, and taft.
peep-toe shoes are totally professional and what??!!
I dunno, I can't help thinking that the term "peep toe" doesn't do much to establish their 'professionalism.' So: "open-toed," maybe? But still: toes.
Should men wear open-toed (or "peep toe") shoes as part of their 'professional' attire? Please, no. Because, you know: toes.
14: Right, I thought we were talking about office wear in general, not specifically about FBI agents. (Hence your comment about "creatives", unless I misunderstood.)
In my experience all women who work for a government agency wear either sandals or sneakers every day of the year. Of course, that government agency is the NIH research campus.
they're just...toes. with nail polish on them. you can see two, maybe three max. nobody ever wears them who doesn't have a perfect pedicure so the problem solves itself. yes, men and women wear different shoes. this isn't a reason to get the vapors over one particular not-very-sexy style of shoe. the name "peep toe" grants them some vicarious sexiness they don't have. black patent ones with a closed heel and a knee length skirt? even the most difficult 96-year-old southern senator would have to work hard to muster up any genuine outrage over the sexy there.
Maybe women will stop waxing their toes and need to have a shoe that provides more coverage?
16, no you're right, of course some people wear jeans, and in general there are varying degrees of formality in varying offices, and the east coast is more conservative; I was just saying even given all that I'm having a hard time imagining peep-toed shoes being unacceptably unprofessional.
waxing their toes...yeah, I mean, this does require you to have a good pedicure. insofar as it's signaling anything it's: I've got it all together, even down unto the last detail of my perfect pedicure.
Maybe women don't grow hairs on their toes?
Or at least not on the bottom of the toes.
yes, men and women wear different shoes. this isn't a reason to get the vapors over one particular not-very-sexy style of shoe.
Oh, no vapors here. And I'm willing to support a knee-high boot with an above-knee-length skirt, even. I just meant that it didn't seem especially hard on women to deprecate the so-called (and perhaps misnamed) "peep-toe" shoe, given that men's options are even narrower, when it comes to 'professional' attire.
The expectation of (which probably amounts to a demand for?) a "perfect pedicure" should give most women pause, I think.
22: women do grow hair on their toes, but only hobbits grow it on the bottom. women do IRL get their toes waxed, often. people vary greatly in this respect, something I only learned as an adult. some women regularly get their forearms waxed. I was blessed with body hair of the nabokovian mere translucent whorls variety and have the privilege of not worrying about it.
Two-tone ladies wingtip: http://www.halloweencostumes.org/womens-sexy-gangster-shoes.html
There is breed of sturdy cross trainer running shoes styled like Mephisto dress shoes that is popular with uniformed police.
Tis the season for sexy boots.
15: Toes ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ
And I'm willing to support a knee-high boot with an above-knee-length skirt, even. rowr. this, by contrast, is an actually sexy look, and I think the number of women FBI agents who get up in the morning and put on an above-the-knee skirt is small.
men's narrower range of choices in professional garb is an advantage, not a deficit. you go to brooks brothers, do what they tell you, and you more or less can't go wrong. even formal occasions are 100% taken care of. perhaps we should therefore work on narrowing women's choices as well: stigmatize away!
you go to brooks brothers, do what they tell you, and you more or less can't go wrong end up looking like every other guy on the street.
28: Well, yeah. I mean, that's sort of the point.
There is breed of sturdy cross trainer running shoes styled like Mephisto dress shoes that is popular with uniformed police.
this seems very reasonable. actually the wingtip is cute and I have a pair of 2001 prada heels very like that but with less white. (there is an outlet store in a hideous suburb of florence.) I think you could find them elsewhere than at a costume store though...
men's narrower range of choices in professional garb is an advantage, not a deficit.
Agreed. Men have the option of dressing in a 'nondescript' fashion (just another everyman wearing whatever it is that every man is supposed to wear), while women's relatively wider ranger of options is fraught with perils and pitfalls, since feminine clothing (and shoes, and makeup, or lack thereof) is almost always culturally 'marked' (it signifies social class, status, education, and etc.) to a much greater extent.
I move to introduce "peep toe" shoes for men as a way of levelling the field.
Oh wait: 26.4 = [eek!] toes.
actually the wingtip is cute and I have a pair of 2001 prada heels very like that but with less white.
Sweet.
(I love shoes, I don't care what anyone says).
oh man, AA meetings in narnia involve a lot of older indian dudes in sandals, and I move that we prevent men from showing their toes to anyone, at any time. recent abercrombie and fitch employees will be exempted on a case-by-case basis.
I certainly have no desire to show my toes to anyone... laydeez.
josh: dude, FBI agents do not wear jeans.
Word.
Our shoes/boots have to be black and have a polishable toe. I wear these Thorogoods. Light and comfortable but still protects your ankles.
well, I mean, hopefully you'll be showing someone your toes, in a good way. I don't object to their existence, but I just don't want to see the toes of strange dudes through their sandals...
(Seriously, though, I'm just kidding and I don't care about this at all.)
32: I'm sorry you don't want to hear it, but shoes will never love you back.
my entire conception of what FBI agents might dress like is based off an unhealthy obsession with numb3rs, which indicates that all sorts of clothes are fine, and taking them off is also fine. I can't really tell what sort of shoes Agent Liz Warner is wearing here for instance.
Hm, yeah, that picture seems to be strategically posed to obscure her shoes.
Mary Catherine, "peep toes" ≠ open toe sandals. I can't seem to find a picture of basic pumps, but this is the idea. I'm not a fan of them in general and would be a little surprised to see an otherwise soberly clad FBI agent wearing them.
44: really? I just don't think they're that far outside the line...doesn't the otherwise soberly dressed FBI agent get to have one "thing," like lipstick, or a cute french tip manicure? I'm imagining her in black slingback ones and a skirt suit; sufficiently boring, nu? maybe it is I who fails to see teh sexy inappropriateness.
[contemplates only pair of peep-toe shoes; inconclusive because they are also red patent leather platforms. yet perhaps this speaks to the nature of the shoe? those were last year's CNY new red shoes; I need new ones, and I want to get a new cheongsam tailored, I better get my ass out this bed.]
40: gswift gets to see FBI agents when they come help him use federal resources to solve important crimes. such as bank robbery, and violating the mann act.
I am not saying they are inappropriate, just that I would not expect to see them. My mild dislike is purely aesthic. (I am trying out my handwriting recognition keypad thing and have not figured out how to make an apostrophe, hence the stilted prose.)
maybe I'll defer to you and witt. but how would that keep things going for 100 comments? o, emerson, where art thou? I guess I better double down: mandatory peep-toe shoes for all federal employees.
OK, and I further predict flippanter will come out in favor of the d'orsay pump, just because. I myself will have to go to sleep soon...
During summer, you're going to see my hairy toes and you're going to like it, ladies. Also, legs.
all alone, trying to convince another human, anyone, to interact with him.)
NTTAWWT.
My only reaction to this post is: I don't know what any of those kinds of shoes are. Not even "pumps." Blame the patriarchy.
I assume we're talking about those Vibram Five Finger shoes. I say unprofessional.
I had a roommate who bleached her facial hair, but I didn't know anyone who did that to their arms.
My toes look just fine as is. Hairwise, anyway.
Also fuck flying. They just made everybody go through that scanner thing. I opted for the pat down. So unpleasant. I think they must have my name in their database.
sorry BG. domestic air travel in the US is fathomlessly horrible. you probably do look suspicious, though.
goddamnit yawnoc, what's the internet for? look some shit up!
We all get our human contact in different ways, BG. I won't judge.
My aunt who's a lawyer with a federal agency was the first person I saw wearing peep-toe shoes, though I'm pretty sure she'd been at the office and not in court. She's since had major bunion surgery on one foot and will eventually need it on the other, but I don't think there's a causal relationship.
peep-toe pumps
t-strap heels
slingback heels
58: the jezebel thread's conclusion was "only after you see a senior lawyer do it first." this seems reasonable in general, swapping in FBI agent for lawyer as needed.
pumps are just regular high-heel shoes like chicks wear, dude.
54: The thing that boggled my mind on a recent domestic flight (CA to TX) was that they both made me go through the whole-body imaging scanner AND get a pat-down. I sort of thought it would be a one or the other deal, not both. But the Texas TSA people were so friendly I didn't really mind.
Also, some peep-toe pumps have such tiny openings that you see almost no toes. I would think those could hardly be objectionable in the least for office-wear and/or for FBI-agent wearing. Then again, Fringe is my main source of what woman FBI agents wear, and I can't imagine Olivia Dunham wearing anything but sensible shoes. To go with her sensible black pantsuits and pony tail. (I have a crush on Olivia. She kicks ass.)
60: Yeah, and she is a senior lawyer and I'm sure she knows what she's doing fashionwise, which I do not. There's also no reason for her to dress in any way like an FBI agent, so it was the Jezebel article that made me think of her.
One approves the d'Orsay pump wholeheartedly.
As for FBI women's wear, I think MST3K anticipated this discussion when they reviewed the X-Files movie and said, re: the costuming and styling of Special Agent Scully, "Hey, look, an uptight nun."
Ooh, I forgot about Scully. Oh, those awful awful boxy jackets. In the later seasons, she looked pretty fashionable, though.
Was Witt talking about December in Pennsylvania? That seems relevant.
there's a statue of felix dzherzhinksy J Edgar outside.
Run away.
Surely a competent FBI agent should dress in a fashion such that nobody would suspect them of being an FBI agent?
she was always hot though. they did go to great lengths with the dowdification.
aggressive, Thatcher-like sexlessness
It seems that many* gentlemen of a certain age would take issue with this. Can't see their point myself, mind you.
*I enter into evidence Mitterrand ("the eyes of Caligula and the mouth of Marilyn Monroe"), J.G. Ballard ("Wait until you get a bit older... I'd rather go to bed with her than with, well, any other world leader.") and Hitchens ("Stepping around behind me, she... smote me on the rear with the parliamentary order paper that she had been rolling into a cylinder behind her back. ... As she walked away, she looked over her shoulder and gave an almost imperceptibly slight roll of the hip while mouthing the words "Naughty boy!").
Btw, this archive of pictures from The Face (origin of the Ballard quote) would have been a good source of examples to argue about in the recent fashion thread. E.g. this picture from 1996.
One could read that Ballard quote as gently ironic, I hope.
||
The kids: objectively not alright.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/people-who-didnt-get-what-they-wanted-for-christm
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Also, it occurs to me that most nice women's shoes are supposed to emphasize the petite elegance of the feet and ankles in question and sylphlike twigginess of the lady to whom they are attached, not quite the "lying to me is a federal offense" message that an FBI S.A. ought to convey.
71: Ballard did write "Why I Want to Fuck Ronald Reagan" so I guess that quote might be less than dispositive. The context gives me the impression that he's at least somewhat on the square, though.
unless you're hoping they lie to you because you can't make the charges stick and are going with some "interfering with a criminal investigation" bullshit because you're just pissed off. naturally upstanding officers would never etc. [sorry gswift].
no, I retract my charge about thatcher, I didn't quite mean she herself was sexually unattractive, just that her clothing tended to radiate a kind of bristling "do not touch" quality which a professional woman might well wish to emulate. let's put it this way: she was the antithesis of girliness.
'night all. entertain emerson, he was bored yesterday.
Re my 70: the 2011 dates under which the thumbnails in the archive are arranged aren't the dates of publication. The dates of publication are under the full-sized pictures that pop up when you click the thumbnail, and seem to be generally from the 90s.
72: Oh come on. They're teenagers, miserable and dissatisfied the lot of them. So they whined to their friends they didn't get iphones. 30 years ago it would have been Ataris.
I remember The Face being available, on occasion, at Newbury Comics during the mumble [decade when I was in high school] mumble, with each issue circulating swiftly among nerds, theater geeks and goth trash, a little British window into a larger world. I think it was in The Face that Shane McGowan took the time to enlighten me about the distinction between "hip" and "cool."
81 con't.: Slightly more disturbing is the fact that many of those kids are clearly fronting about what they did get. So they want to moan about being denied by their parents, but also don't want to appear deprived, so you get nonsense like "Sure I got a car, but I wanted an iPad, tooooo!" So terrible little consumerists, but that goes for everybody, not just kids.
68: OK, irresistible. there must be some class of FBI agents who don't look like them, because otherwise they could never spy on anyone, but most FBI agents look comically like FBI agents. around the actual FBI, say.
81: Jeez, the way they talk about their parents, though.
And Mormon missionaries also look comically like FBI agents, except for the bicycles.
And Mormon missionaries also look comically like FBI agents, except for the bicycles.
My only pair of peep toes are Prada circa 2003 cherry red shantung silk sling-backs, with hidden platform and 4 inch heels. I would not wear them to the office.
84: In the tradition of MTV Cops, I give you FBI: Fashion Crimes Investigation Unit
82: I was in high school that very same decade.
But one could absolutely wear a plain calf or navy pair, I think.
I do sympathize with the girl whose brother got an iSomething while she got a map of Maryland, though I suspect that's not the full story.
I would not wear them to the office.
I would think not. Don't you need them to be black?
89: NYC Jeans Police:
"First offender spotted Saturday afternoon on Bleecker St., where a woman was squeezed into a too-tight pair of pale blue Lee (?) jeans. I let her off with a warning. Shortly thereafter, I spotted another offender: a woman with large hips wearing low-rise dark denim bootcuts. Since the dept. is new, again I issued only a warning. Saturday's third incident: the horrific thong-above-low-rise. Citation and fine were issued, there's simply no warning for that one."
All shoes are acceptable at our office. We have three ladies who regularly wear the shoes mentioned above.
But, we are not your typical law firm.
This thread reminds me that I really enjoy thesartorialist.com even though I am very unfashionable.
The Sartorialist is much funnier if you assume, as I do, that all the men featured are, like the Sartorialist, substantially shorter than the various willowy goddesses (and the Sartorialist's lady friend, Garance Doré).
I think civil-service protections might militate in the other direction, not eliminating the "professional" norms/expectations but moderating them compared to, say, law firms, with plenty of office-to-office variation. When I interned at a federal agency in DC, one colleague (doing the core work and on the standard promotion track, not support or anything) had near-elbow-length sleeve tattoos, which she only hid when meeting with outsiders.
To the OP: The young Flippanter imagined Catwoman quite a lot, actually.
I thought the Sartorialist went off the boil really badly a while ago. It stopped being, to the extent that it ever was, photos of well-dressed/cool-looking people and dapper old blokes, and became photos of a coterie of ankle-flashing twats taken at fashion events. And, for a long time, it seemed to be pushing specific looks rather than just documenting; which itself involves editorial choices, of course, but the editorialising became much more transparent.
Flicking through it now it doesn't seem quite as bad as it was a while ago.
Since this is the shoe thread, I'll link to my new shoes which are the most awesome, amazing, wonderful shoes ever. Definitely office appropriate! I wore them on Christmas Eve with fishnets and a vaguely 1920s-looking black skirt. The granny-ness of the shoes lets you get away with a much less fine net than I would normally wear. Which is good, becasue the micronets are fucking expensive and easy to snag.
The dowdiness of DC is my sister's (now a 15 year resident) major complaint about DC. She dresses in what would be totally normal, very mildly fashionable clothes here and apparently everyone at work and even in her social scene is like Wild Woman! Fashion Plate! Fortunately she kicks ass professionally and ruins careers for a living so all those rumpled fools from NoVa stay in line.
The FBI guys I've met here dress fine, except for the mustache abundance, non hipster variant. LAPD seem to have a thing for shiny suits.
Washington lawyer here -- formerly at a big firm, now at DOJ. I would say that peep toes are totally fine. As are boots with skirts. And open sandals. The only thing that is obviously over the line is flip flops and sneakers -- and even those would be okay on jeans day (Fridays at DOJ, pretty much never at old firm).
That is for wearing around the office. If you're going to court, a deposition or a client meeting, I still think that conservative peep toes would be okay, as would a skirt suit with boots (possibly). Of course, with open toes you run into the whole pantyhose issue.
I should clarify that presumably the FBI is more conservative, both culturally and politically, than where I was, and indeed most Washington non-law-enforcement agencies. Still, I bet there are still strong distinctions between what you wear off the clock, versus with your colleagues only, versus when representing your institution to the outside.
96, 100 - The Sartorialist is crushed on every metric by Hel Looks.
I'm willing to bet that The Sartorialist wins out over Hel Looks on the metrics "price" and "proportion of french cuffs on men".
re: 106
re: french cuffs:
And, as per 100, blokes with trousers worn too short and either no-socks or fucking 'statement' socks. That and women draped in multiple drapey layers as if this was the early/mid-90s.*
* hat-tip to Heebie.
I must say it is objectively awesome to wake up and lazily check Unfogged, only to find out that the rosy-toed one has elevated your humble attempt at thread-redirect into an actual capital-P post.
It's even funnier given my manifest lack of fashion vocabulary, which I have tried really hard to improve in the past 10 years but which is still light-years removed from, say, heebie's or jackmormon's.
Anyway, catching up on the thread: Yes, we are talking about December in Pennsylvania. Yes, the companion FBI agent was more conservatively dressed (and it was a woman! Sexists).
44: really? I just don't think they're that far outside the line...doesn't the otherwise soberly dressed FBI agent get to have one "thing," like lipstick, or a cute french tip manicure?
I honestly can't remember the clothes she was wearing, but the overall impression I got was "young and unprofessional," although I grant that it is my own sexism talking. Not-natural blond hair, cut in a way that suggests trendiness, dark goth-y nailpolish, and then the shoes.
most FBI agents look comically like FBI agents.
Hoo boy is that true. Many moons ago I had a colleague who had previously worked as a bank teller, and though when the fibbies came in to interview her about a past robbery I wondered for a quarter of a second if they were salesmen, they soon opened their mouths and removed all doubt.
Flip flops seem like they should be "acceptable" in the office world. I mean, many of them have some modicum of style and seem no less sturdy than many women's sandals (i.e., not very). Why do flip flops get a bad rap?
A certain commenter here not too long ago posted a pic of himself in fuchsia socks which I thought were pretty great, tbh.
re: 110
Yeah, I don't mind fancy socks. There was just a particular very specific look that seemed to infest the Sartorialist like a plague. The minor-member-of-the-Agnelli-family / heir-to-a-Milanese-wallpaper-empire look.
46: I have a pair of shoes like that with a strap. I think they're from BCBG.
I honestly can't remember the clothes she was wearing, but the overall impression I got was "young and unprofessional,"
One wonders what season 4 of Veronica Mars, with our plucky protagonist now working in the FBI, would have been like.
"proportion of french cuffs on men"
Hey, I like french cuffs! (Not the godawful white ones that contrast with the main color of the shirt, but cuffs that fasten with cufflinks.) Cufflinks are one of the few bits of personalization men are allowed (cf. 28).
I'll just pretend there are not 115 comments preceding mine.
A quick rule of thumb, for someone who doesn't want to think about what they wear much, is to avoid peep-toe shoes in professional contexts. They are sexier than open-toed shoes because of the revealed toe-cleavage thing, and that historically, they are Marilyn Monroe sexy shoes.
For someone who likes thinking about nuances of fashion, you could complement them, or choose ones with a low heel, or do whatever, to create a professional whole effect.
Also:
Probably open toed shoes are also inappropriate if we're talking about being this professional, anyway.
116 preceding comments, not 115.
101: Truly great! I love them. I bought a pair of womanly brogues recently for wearing when the weather doesn't necessitate boots, and am thinking I should get a pair like yours as well, for when I want to look dressy and still be able to walk.
116 preceding comments, not 115.
Thanks, I was hopelessly confused.
72 - my teenagers were telling me about that yesterday and were gratifyingly disgusted by it. Although my 13 year old is also pissed off with me for losing a present of hers. (It was furtively pressed into my hands by an admirer and although I thought I'd put it under the tree, it seems to have disappeared.)
The shoes in 101 are totally fantastic.
Yes, the companion FBI agent was more conservatively dressed (and it was a woman! Sexists).
Maybe they're playing Good Cop/Hot Cop.
Let's all send in pictures of our feet.
110: They're actually bright pink. Stupid iPhone camera.
Flip Flop sandals are okay a lot of places, but it's the cheap drugstore beach ones that most people mean.
gswift is an FBI agent?!
City cop. No uprooting and moving around the country, and we have a lot more fun.
127: Jack Webb: the original laugh riot.
for when I want to look dressy and still be able to walk
Exactly! I've walked all over in those, over a mile at a time. And they're bike friendly, too.
I concur regarding Blume's shoes.
Hey, I like french cuffs! (Not the godawful white ones that contrast with the main color of the shirt, but cuffs that fasten with cufflinks.)
I wasn't knocking them, just noting that theyre likely more often to be found on The Sartorialist than on Hel Looks.
The Sartorialist is crushed on every metric by Hel Looks.
"Crushed on every metric"? The Sartorialist gets north of 13 million page views a month, compared to something in the neighborhood of 500,000 or less for Hel Looks.
109: Why do flip flops get a bad rap?
The sound would be disturbing in my office. It is fairly quiet here.
Just emailed Frowner to come over here and set y'all straight on these questions.
I think what was meant by "every metric" is "everything that isn't a metric".
I see a size 8 black pair of closed-toe pumps with a medium-height heel stamping on a woman's face, forever.
I would think that a gun-toting FBI agent or any LEO would need to be prepared to either run, or travel through slop and mud, or kick somebody, so I would think that any open-toed shoe would be out and in fact, one would tend to the highly utilitarian shoe, unless one just felt like jamming a toe or something.
So not seeing the peep-toes or open-toed or sandals and totally not seeing heel or any significant height, unless they were boots. Boots, any kind of closed boot, particularly if it were tucked under the pants seems like it would be perfectly functional (including bright red or banana yellow ones).
max
['Ergo, Witt: not sexist.']
No, the really seriously lethal agents wear stilettos for the distraction effect.
Photoshop disasters where the woman's head is bigger than her waist are one of the freakiest kind.
as I said above, though I was afraid of reaching comity too soon (laydeez), I'm willing to believe there may be some rarified dowdified plane of professionalism on which peep-toe shoes are unprofessional. nonetheless, I express surprise that even the feds are that conservative. the cop feds. I'm sure everyone at NIH is normal, by which I mean, a giant nerd. witt: see, I said she was allowed to have ONE thing: it should have been either the shoes, or the nails, or the hair--all three seems clearly unprofessional. also, I deeply regret my sexist assumption that the other agent in the two-pack was male.
max: on tv it seems like every single time the cops go question anyone it devolves into a chase down the fire escape, but in real life FBI agents spend lots of time flying on planes and working in offices and asking boring questions to people who don't even try to run away. so wearing moderate heels might not be that crazy, especially since with a skirt suit they signify "office boringness" in fashion vernacular.
100: totes agreed! I haven't gone back to see if he has reformed his elfin ways.
101: OMG great! I had a pair exactly like that, but vintage, and truly too narrow, I had to sell them eventually.
99: one never doubted.
I was not caught when I ran from cops. I'm not very fast, but I have sensible shoes.
What kind of underwear do FBI agents wear? Do they listen to their moms, or does the FBI have a standard, or do they always keep potential hot dates with crime lab personnel in mind?
144: Take one for the team, Emerson. Seduce an FBI agent and let us know.
I don't see how that's going to obstruct you from finding out what's in FBI agents' pants.
147: quite to the contrary.
they might well be keeping dates with crime scene techs in mind, since if there is one thing I have learned from jerry bruckheimer it is that crime scene techs are hott. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that male FBI agents all wear blue cotton boxers, because you can't go wrong there, while female FBI agents flail around in culturally determined confusion, veering from the hanes cotton 3-pack to la perla. they can get guidance on this from senior agents at the gym/showers, though.
then again, doesn't "male FBI agent" pretty much scream "tighty whities"? I dunno. maybe I'll have to take one for the team. there's plenty of them over at mt. doom, aka the US embassy in narnia. drama club mercenary knows plenty, but he doesn't like them because (everybody together here) they're "boring" and "play by the rules" to wit: do not massively violate said rules at every opportunity.
31: I move to introduce "peep toe" shoes for men as a way of levelling the field.
I'm totally behind this. Though I must say that it hasn't been clear to me why it's potentially sexist to think that peep-toe shoes are unprofessional (if they are); I imagine we'd be in complete agreement that they're unprofessional on a man. Why is this a sexist sentiment?
I must be missing something obvious.
If I had to take the time to make my toes presentable for work, I'd probably be so short on sleep that I'd only earn 75¢ for every dollar a woman earned.
Let your inner freak flag second toe fly.
152 links to a study on Morton's toe (longer 2nd toe than big toe)--I want some stats from Unfogged. I have it, as does one of my sons.
149: Googling "official FBI underwear" doesn't return nearly the hits I was hoping for.
I'm sure there must have been some kind of policy back in Hoover's day, but standards are slipping.
Did you know that if you go to visit someone in prison you must wear underwear? And a bra, if you are compulsorily gendered as female? Maybe not at every single prison, but at a lot of them.
153: When it rains, it pours.
You want some stats from Unfogged? Um, okay, 2nd toe exactly the same length as big toe. What are we demonstrating, now? (I don't have to read the link, I'm sure.)
I want some stats from Unfogged.
My feet are perfect cubes. The toes angle off a bit from the big toe, so no Morton's for me.
154: all, I think. and WTF is up with that? what if you're not a bra person?
can you hand-stretch your second toe first?
150: I speculate that some things are feminine enough, respecting the distinction between men and women and, with it, the subordination of the latter, while some things are too feminine, and associated with Woman's traditional flaws: vanity, wantonness, vanity, disobedience, vanity and not baking my laundry.
Same length, but isn't it really girth that matters?
154: I wouldn't be surprised if they did used to have a policy, actually, and not in a har har hoover in fishnets way. that's just how they roll.
164: Well, yeah, I mean, there's that anecdote of Hoover going to see the new recruits and casually commenting to the agents he was with "you've got some real pinheads in this class", so they eliminated the three recruits with the smallest hat sizes. Can't tell me they wouldn't care what kind of underwear someone was wearing. What if it was Red? Or fruity?
162: I thought it might be something like that. I've had trouble focusing on the whole thing, since I find peep-toe shoes quite unsexy, though I suppose they're feminine.
Presumably a policy snuggled away on an intranet.
Did anyone here read that Found documentation about the completely inept FBI agent? The one who lost his sidearm? That was so pathetic and bizarre.
169: no, direct me...actually I'm going to the doctor, I'll be back to entertain you all with my febrile confusion in an hour-ish.
The MEPS (Military Entrance Processing Station) guide includes this advice:
Wear normal underwear. You will be sorry if you don't!
further to 149: you know the sad part is that drama club mercenary feels the same way about the CIA operatives now. a bunch of stick-in-the-muds unable to make the hard decisions. dude, that is not the CIA's problem. there are some dudley do-rights in langley--well, I personally know one, maybe "some" is unrealistic. he is a reasonably snappy dresser by DC standards. some FBI agents have cheap, boxy suits; he has nice ones. former sailing protégé of my grandad's though, so he comes by it honestly. I know what you're thinking; he really is a good guy, though. then again, plenty of people I would have said that about and then they have to go and...
170: I can't find it online. I think it was maybe in one of the Found books. Hmm.
Why is this a sexist sentiment?
I think it is classist (I don't like that word, btw, but can't think of a better one), as any notion of 'professional' invariably is. And the class connotations are gendered in a such a way as to also make it sexist.
Or, um, something like that. And I certainly don't claim to be free of classism/sexism on this issue, since I'm leaning toward "peep toe" as "unprofessional."
Now I'm picturing a sugar-crusted marshmallow bunny sticking out of a shoe.
174: I've been trying to get people to say "class-bound" for a long time now. What does "classist" even mean? That you believe people can be meaningfully differentiated by their social class? It's right there in the Preamble to the IWW Constitution! "The working class and the employing class have nothing in common"
Sigh. But people still say "classist".
What sorts of underwear are unprofessional?
For starters, anything leather if it makes that squeaky noise from under your pants.
178: For men, any underwear that you can see, hear or smell.
boxers with pot leaves printed on them?
underwear into which your mother has sewn an identifying name?
underwear with any distinguishing feature whatsoever upon which your sadistic superiors might seize? I'm going back to blue cotton boxers as never wrong, while considering the possibility of cotton boxer/briefs as a) being splitting the difference-ish and therefore boring and fed-like and b) offering crucial support for chases down the fire escape. [there's a long line at my doctor's. face. hurts. so. bad.]
Wait, what kinds of underwear can you hear? Red Sonya-style chain mail? In which case I would like to state my endorsement thereof.
[annoying trigger warning for AWB and her fellow reasonable objectors to specific numbers combined with borderline eating disorders, and yes I recently had a weigh-in/conversation with a friend revealing that my normal (thus unacceptable) weight is her dream goal weight] illness has gotten me down to 137, a number which doesn't demand I immediately execute myself. being bedridden has only one other benefit: a good manicure, as I am not constantly using paint thinner at work. that chanel red/black color so popular in 1997 (contra heebie).
Second toe significantly longer than big toe, here. At least, protrudes farther. Do you measure each from the base of the toe?
184: Went to partake of my new gym membership today and realized that I had not packed all my gym clothes. Felt pretty stupid. Also, goddamn, I am so huge! I may be working out periodically with one of my friends who's about 4' 11 and 1/2" and under 110, soaking wet and wearing boots. It's like we're different species or something!
If I am successful at losing a lot of weight/slimming down my figure, I am going to be especially cruel to former thin people.
183: I don't know that hoover and frank frazetta shared many preferences. when my husband decided to learn to draw in the last few years I advised him to slavishly copy other drawings for a while, and once he had gotten to a certain level of proficiency he started copying frazetta. well, the lad knows what he likes.
187: I know! No more Mr. Nice Guy!
Note: 186.2 was a joke. I'm just going to do a bit of concern-trolling.
I'm glad to hear tasteless underwear is not required.
191: Tasty underwear is probably inappropriate for FBI agents.
OT: Tintin and Captain Haddock are gay, right?
totes gay. batman and robin-level of gay. I mean, tintin is practically his youthful ward! were it not for the fact that captain haddock's alcoholism renders him more in need of care than tintin himself.
got a big shot of antibiotics in the ass, and a new 20-day course designed to kill the probably lurking mycoplasma, which is very common in narnia and difficult to kill. I felt very guilty that I had been ignoring toddler x's wails of "I'm too tired to walk to school" when it turned out she had had mycoplasma for 6 months (aka walking pneumonia though I ain't doing much in the way of walking.) I chipped a nail, probably in retaliation for my neurotic wight obsessions above. I'm only supposed to go see the specialist if I don't get better within a week (this is stretching into week 4 of bedridden with fever, mind) but I've made an appointment for friday using guanxi, or connections.
emerson's lectures on taiwan are, for the most part, totally applicable to narnia. one of the striking differences between here and the US is that being a university professor is considered an occupation worthy of great respect. also, the only way I can do anything like go see the best relevant doctor (or get my sister to the island's sole pain specialist) is to call a friend who is a socially prominent doctor. he asked if I wanted to go this afternoon, which is pretty prompt service. but I am so tired and I thought we'd give the new antibiotics a tiny chance.
this isn't considered unethical string-pulling but rather a reasonable and ordinary way to go about life. know somebody who knows somebody. it is a small town above a certain social level, there are only a few schools people might have been to, so they all know one another. much like DC (native DC; obviously there is a transient population).
I had the problem that continuous fever caused my big toenail on my left foot to break off about halfway down the nailbed (it makes ridges in your nails and makes your hair fall out also, but luckily my hair is so thick that it doesn't matter). so I couldn't wear any open-toed shoes for a while, which was a horrible restriction, it being 92 every day, and me not being an FBI agent. or it would have been if I had been able to go anywhere (I did just willpower up to a few occasions). it has grown out enough, and I have prettified it enough, that I feel it's just barely acceptable to put on normal sandals (ironically I often wear flip-flop-like sandals made of leather with understated beading and so forth; perfectly decent). so I shared the pain of the toenail be-fungused, sort of, briefly.
I will pull a sifu on the sidebar!! but no one will notice.
I'll notice. Or I would, if I hadn't just stopped you.
Went to partake of my new gym membership today
I hadn't done any exercise at all since my Bikram two-month deal ran out ten days ago, and the lack had been having predictably dire effects on my mood. I finally decided enough was enough, thinking that the hilly route to Twin Peaks would make for a decent bike workout. A fine idea, but then my tire went flat only two miles in--the same tire whose tube I'd just changed last week--and I started to feel despondent about the whole thing, since I didn't bring a spare, and only had $5 with me, not enough for a new tube. I managed to do what seemed like a creditable job patching the tube, though it took me forever (what with the watching instructional youtube videos on my phone while leeching wifi from a nearby house), and I won't know if I actually did it right until I see whether it deflated overnight. Oh, well. Tomorrow, to the summit!
70: Thanks for linking that. God, how I miss The Face.
(If they'd had a decent website, they would just about have made it to being indexed by archive.org and at least one major search engine, but as it stands all that writing is in C-ships on fire, tears in the rain, etc territory.)
Hmm, I wonder if my sister has still got my near-complete run of it from 1996 to 2000? A lot of water under the bridge and quite a bit of dead tree to cart about (it was only later when I was a professional mag hag that I knew just how absurdly luxurious their production was), so I think not.
that chanel red/black color so popular in 1997
Vamp, I think?
re: 204.2
I'd guess it'll get hoovered up in some mass-digitisation program at one of the copyright libraries in the UK. It might even have been done already. At the BL, maybe? It's not been done at Oxford, or, afaik, Cambridge. Although it'll then end up 'dark' I'd expect, after it's digitised, given how little recent stuff is being made public because of fears over being sued.
174: I think it is classist (I don't like that word, btw, but can't think of a better one), as any notion of 'professional' invariably is.
Agreed. I'll try to go with Natilo's "class-bound" in future.
And the class connotations are gendered in a such a way as to also make it sexist.
I'm interested in how the class connotations are gender inflected -- or have gender ramifications? -- such that it's sexist as well. Maybe we can take it up again whenever a similar topic arises. As it stands, I'm kind of struggling to find it sexist; or rather, I'd be interested in exploring it.
I have worked for a manufacturer who, despite my office being in two places including an outdoor walk in all weather, AND an advertising agency, required fairly formal business dress, including skirt/blouse or conservative dress, hose and closed shoes. the manager at the plant ended up demanding that I 'spend my Christmas bonus on clothes and pumps" because I ended up being under him (my boss had died, he had tried to make me his second but the Plant Manager was an ass and refused). the ad agency accepted flat, office-nice shoes. Which is good, because i fractured an ankle in a move in about 1982 and cannot wear heels more than about 1/2 inch. The Ad agency never knew I was wearing knee-high hose under my long-ish skirts....
If anyone is still involved on this thread, how do y'all feel about dark nail polish in a semi-professional setting, say, as a grad student lecturer? Not black, but say, a purple shade? I want to look authoritative and professional enough to counteract being smallish and young and female (and frequently mistaken for an undergrad), but I'd like to have purple nails.
When I first saw this, I thought that by "peep-toe shoes" you meant the kind *for* peeping. Which would totally be unprofessional.
209: It's fine. My office has a very good lawyer who's about 5'0", 90lbs, and looks 12, so she worries about this kind of thing in the courtroom, but dark nail polish looks perfectly professional on her. I'd stay away from blue-purple, but just dark is fine.
209 et seq: don't try any color, really, if you're a male-presenting man in a speech tournament in a rural county. Turns out you can hypnotize the judges (not in a good way).
209: Rock the purple nails. If you're nervous, pick a more burgundy shade or smoky shade and keep the rest of the outfit conservativish. I think I've worn almost every color of the rainbow on my nails while teaching. One of the perks of the academy is the relatively relaxed dress code, and I've found, IME, that projecting authority is less a matter of what one wears (within reason) and more about attitude, even if one looks young.
Thanks for the advice. I painted my nails a warm plum color, which is shiny but not sparkly. I think it'll be fine for teaching.
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