I'm so sorry. I have somewhat similar experience and do have ongoing but structured contact, but I'm not really comfortable talking about it here. I'd be glad to talk by email if that's the sort of thing you'd find helpful.
Um, and this is me talking to my former self, but don't take on too much responsibility for being the magical person who broke through to your robot beloved's human heart. That doesn't mean you're the one who has a moral responsibility to get that heart beating again or anything like that. Maybe that wouldn't make sense to you, but that aspect of it, feeling special for causing emotion to exist at all and thus also somehow responsible for the failure, was particularly hard on me.
I think I ought to sit this one out. I'll just note (i) love is pain, (ii) anyone who says anything different is, to quote Wolfgang Pauli and an old colleague of mine whenever we used to discuss anything, not even wrong, and (iii) whatever alameida says, I guess.
It's a little late at this point but pushing someone to talk about something they don't want to talk about can be counterproductive. Although it sounds like this guy may have been more trouble than he was worth in any case.
As for moving on, greatly reduce if not eliminate interaction with him, give yourself time to heal, perhaps find some project to divert your thoughts.
perhaps find some project to divert your thoughts
That's why Stalin was so big on building canals.
someone with no friends, & no apparent sign of normal human feeling...But I have never felt anything like I felt in those first years: a sure strong sense of rightness and connection that seemed utterly unbreakable.
I would guess this is the real issue that needs to be figured out in order to avoid an endless cycle of "why do I always end up with manipulative psychopaths?"
I started reading this as it actually being heebie herself compensating for the dearth of ATM material by sharing her own experience. So I briefly thought we were seeing new frontiers in front-page poster candor.
Maybe I was flattered to have such a person suddenly announcing that they felt things for me they hadn't thought themselves capable of
That's probably got to be tiring, like when I lift weights and muscles I didn't know I had start to hurt.
6: Whoops, I'll add a intro sentence.
8: The first two paragraphs were almost plausible before the explicit mention of romance.
5
I would guess this is the real issue that needs to be figured out in order to avoid an endless cycle of "why do I always end up with manipulative psychopaths?"
This seems like a big jump to me. My guess would be this guy wasn't like her previous romantic interests and that this was part of his appeal.
And he doesn't sound like your typical manipulative psychopath to me in that he doesn't seem hyper controlling. He just wants to be able to withdraw when he isn't in the mood for human contact which can be tough on a relationship but isn't the same thing (particularly as he doesn't seem to be withdrawing to punish her).
Heebie's advice may not be enough if you are clinically depressed, but it will probably help. Structure, exercise, and being good to yourself are good general-purpose cures.
"The Hero and the Wounded Bird" can be a compelling story, and difficult to resist being part of.
I wish I had wonderful advice about how to move on. Unfortunately, all I can say is that it will take time, and it will happen at its own pace. Also, moving on will not mean a total breaking of the existing bond, at least that has not been my experience. Instead, the bond changes, and becomes less immediate, and becomes more of the background of who you are. Sorry I'm rushed, and sorry that I don't have better advice or news.
Unilaterally deciding when there will be contact & conversation, in a romance, is controlling. Being cruel about it isn't OK either.
So I agree with heebie. I can't decide if you should explicitly say goodbye to the ghost, thereby pissing off his shell. Would it do you any good?
I find that I'm unclear on what the current relationship status is, explicitly. Romantically involved, but in an unhappy way? Broken up but still communicating, although unpleasantly? Last she(he?) knew they were still involved, but communication is so strained that she's(he's?) not sure whether Mr. Roboto thinks they've broken up?
If they're still on some explicit level together, I think it's time to have a soft breakup talk: "I was happy with you; since time X, however, you've seemed really threatened by and cold toward my attempts to maintain the relationship; I don't want to keep you in something that's making you unhappy; if you want our relationship to continue, but just need (a referral for a therapist/me to not call for a month while you get through things/ a swift kick in the ass) I can work with you; otherwise, I'm sorry this hasn't worked out, and I still care about you, but we should go our separate ways; if you change your mind about the relationship at some point while I'm still single, call me and we'll talk."
Being in a position where you're responsible for emotionally supporting someone who gets cold and hostile about the support is a lousy place to be, and the asker should get out of that position (to the extent they're still in it) ASAP.
Other than that, what Heebie said about self-care.
5 and 10 both read this differently than I do. This is the part of the query that struck me:
Until eighteen months ago, when he suffered some mysterious psychological trauma he has refused to discuss.
Without further elaboration, it seems possible to me that Chilly & Off-Putting Boyfriend decided eighteen months ago that he probably didn't want to be in this relationship any more, but that he also didn't want to take responsibility for ending it.
If that's correct, then heebie has this right:
It sounds like you know this is ending. End it.
"The Hero and the Wounded Bird" can be a compelling story
Eh, maybe I'm just getting all relationship normative but I can't fathom this kind of thing. Maybe time to try "The Woodsman who ignored the Wounded Bird because it's a big forest and he/she is just too busy chasing all the Normal Healthy Birds".
15.3 more subtly; a few years in is a plausible time to discover that love (?) Didn't actually heal all the wounds, they were still there as the euphoria faded.
Wow, this is something that would happen to me. It's not me. But I send my best to the author of it, with no clue what to do other than to remind yourself that it's not your fault. You didn't hurt him or damage him any worse, but it wasn't wasted time for either of you. Try not to feel guilty about not having done more or having done too much. That makes it hurt much worse.
And there is something to 5. Manipulative psychopath sounds wrong -- the story sounds more like 'wounded bird/sleeping beauty'. But you might want to introspect about what you saw in the relationship, and if there's anything about it that it makes sense to consciously try not to seek out in future.
I'm not sure one can consciously make that decision, but one can make oneself aware of how that particular feeling ends up feeling. The desire to do something about other people's past traumas ebbs when you consider all the shit they make you eat.
A working relationship is a two-way street. If the guy's persistently not reciprocating, be good to yourself and stop hoping for him to change, as others are saying.
Being able to give to another person is very nice. If everyone's open and happy, it's just one more nice thing. But not everyone is open and happy, so a chance to be kind can be a real bright spot. Unlikely to end well, though.
Both Shearer and AWB are making good sense, as is pf at 15.
It's time to DTMFA and take care of yourself, OP.
16: You're kidding, right? As "Bird and Wounded Hero" that story variation is what fills most of the Romance Section in our (fast disappearing) bookstores.
Also, ask Spenser, Travis, and any number of others about the attraction. Near as I can tell, the trick is in not getting sucked into the whirlpool. ({sigh} Or what AWB said in 20)
This sounds very painful. I would not disrespect the pain of it by calling it your "teenager" story. I respect Heebie's advice about self care, though mine own self care would have a bit less STRUCTURE STRUCTURE and more space to breathe.
Manipulative psychopath sounds wrong -- the story sounds more like 'wounded bird/sleeping beauty'.
Might be. I tend to not trust people's self narratives, especially when they happen to be a justification for being a shithead.
I think that's all the good advice necessary -- it's mostly all the same. On to the bad advice.
In the asker's shoes, I would be maddened by curiosity about what happened eighteen months ago, as much as by heartbreak over the relationship. From here, it seems possible that nothing happened, and Mr. Roboto simply ran out of relationship energy. But assuming the asker's reading it right, and there was an event... wouldn't that drive you batty? Something professional? Friends (but he hasn't got any friends)? Family? I mean, it sounds like the setup for the kind of Hitchcock movie where something uncovers the trauma and suddenly our hero/ine gets sane again.
I think pursuing this is a terrible idea for the asker -- people don't get better because you found the answer to something, and if he doesn't want to communicate it with you, you can't make him. But if I were in this spot, I would drive myself insane picking at any clues I had. You should not do this.
16: You're kidding, right? As "Bird and Wounded Hero" that story variation is what fills most of the Romance Section in our (fast disappearing) bookstores.
Maybe this is why no one will publish my romance novel. Probably not as large a market for "Impatient Farmer puts Wounded Bird out of it's misery".
Or perhaps I'm not published because I can't correctly use a godamn apostrophe.
A little over a year ago, my boyfriend broke up with me. We had been together for nine years and had lived together for five. Then he suffered some kind of psychological breakdown, repulsed my efforts to reach out to him, and suddenly and definitively decided that he no longer wanted to be with me.
After a few weeks of wondering whether I was going to survive, I decided I needed to be SUPER PROGRAMMATIC! in order to get through it.
So: MY PROGRAM.
1. Be around people as much as possible. I am by nature very shy, and when I was with M, I pretty much withdrew from the world and made him my primary emotional support and social contact. When we broke up, I was discovered that the world is -- surprise! -- full of people.
For many months, I tried do at least one social activity every day, and on weekends, two or three. (For you all, this may not seem like much, but this was unprecedented for me.) As Heebie says, it's important to talk to a good friend, but I found it was even more important to hang out with acquaintances. It was sometimes exhausting to talk to my friends, who were loving and supportive, but they were mostly worried about me, and good God, the last thing I wanted to do sometimes was talk about how terrible I felt. Activities with acquaintances -- a movie, a hike, a community gardening event -- helped take me out of myself and occupied my time and my mind. Some of these acquaintances have become very dear friends.
2. Exercise. It feels really good to be exhausted. I started taking a tennis class. Classes are good because even if you're feeling depressed and unmotivated, knowing that you have a regularly scheduled, pre-paid lesson will help make you go.
3. Learn something new, or do something you're not good at. I remember feeling totally elated after my first tennis class. And then I realized why -- it had been the first time in months that I hadn't thought about M for a whole hour. Learning a new skill (I had never played tennis before) was so consuming, and occupied so much of my brain and my energy, that I hadn't had time to be sad.
Learning something new also helps because it will give you access to a part of the world that you never shared with your ex.
4. Plan ahead. There were a few months when I did not trust myself to be alone. I dealt with this by planning out my day in blocks, to make sure I would always be occupied. If I planned to go on a hike with a friend in the morning, and to see a movie with another friend in the evening, I needed to find something to do from noon to five.
I also learned there were some things -- like going on long drives, or visiting a certain part of East Hollywood -- that for sentimental or other reasons I couldn't do without falling apart. I figured out how to avoid long drives alone, and found out about bars/restaurants/bookstores that were just as serviceable but in a less emotionally dangerous part of town.
So that's my program, for the most part. To be honest, I haven't entirely got through it, and suffered a mini-breakdown over the past couple of weeks. On Sunday, I got out of the house, ran for several hours and then bought a bike and started teaching myself how to ride it. This helped. But, you know. I'm still learning how to get better.
it sounds like the setup for the kind of Hitchcock movie where something uncovers the trauma and suddenly our hero/ine gets sane again. pulls mysteriously into himself like a snail until he can find a partner who reminds him more closely of those bad people who abused him.
This has happened to me so many fucking times you can't imagine. Also, switch the genders around all you like; it's the same story. Abused people can find a way to process past traumas through sexual and romantic relationships, but usually the only way to fully deal with that pain is not with some caring loving infinitely giving person, but with someone who withholds love and affection and metes out violence and screaming just like the abuser did.
For me, and I'm not saying this is what the poster's position is, but for me, seeking relationships with cold, mercurial, abused people who neglect me and then suddenly need me to help them desperately and then neglect me again is pretty much exactly what my own abusive childhood was like. My own folks were both terribly physically and emotionally abused, and they had kids so that someone could be there to do all the emotional work of the family; i.e., having all the feelings for them and making everything OK. Is it any wonder that I find damaged, distant people who demand instant behavior modification from me attractive?
Once I came to realize that, I haven't had more than one date with anyone, for about three years now. So the sad part of realizing this is that just because you figure out how to stop repeating your own traumas with other people doesn't mean you suddenly know what it's like to be loved and treated with respect.
on to the bad advice
Write a cathartic roman à clef. Put it away. If the guy hardens into a vicious academic, rewrite it to be sadly funny & publish.
Now I must be clingy towards my own sweetie, since if he left me I'd have a hard time not jumping off a bridge.
23 and others: Yeah. I did not mean "Hero and the Wounded Bird" to sound sexist, but I can see where the language does indicate stereotypes.
Being gender neutral, consider it to be a caretaker trying to fix someone else. Being a caretaker is usually a wonderful thing, when someone needs a caretaker, but it gets real bad real fast when it happens in a relationship. I wish I had known this years and years ago.
30: AWB - awesome insight. Would you say the problem is that 'being loved and treated with respect' feels "wrong" to you?
For me, being a caretaker felt "right," and it took awhile before I could show love in other ways and have that feel "right." I'm still working on that, but I have made a lot of progress over the years.
There's a judgmental tone to much of the stuff in this thread that I don't agree with, but I'm having trouble articulating why. Let me throw a few things out there:
-Original Poster hasn't done anything foolish or even really dubious here. Original Poster doesn't have too many lessons to learn, except that life sucks sometimes and maybe 18 months is a little long to take to put a disintegrating relationship out of its misery. (But maybe 18 months is just how long it needed to take.)
-Original Poster doesn't sound clinically depressed at all to me. Just predictably heartbroken.
-Chilly & Off-Putting Guy doesn't sound evil to me, just confused in a way that precludes this particular relationship. Speaking on behalf of human beings: We are fucked up, but we often manage to muddle through.
-Also: What Biohazard said in 23. I can't imagine a successful romantic relationship that doesn't involve filling voids in another person's life. There's certainly a line you don't want to cross: You can't fix people, and you must avoid anyone whose broken-ness involves abusing you. But people can often grow and learn, and you can help that process. You just have to keep in mind that some people, in the end, can't grow and learn. You need to cut yourself a little slack if it takes awhile to figure that out about a particular person.
I'm not really satisfied with how I've expressed this, but I can't seem to say it better.
33.1: I wouldn't know what that feels like. I have friends, but no one has ever tried to date me with kindness and affection in mind, and I'm sure if they did I would just find them disgusting and manipulative. If you don't grow up with parents who love you, people who genuinely would want to love you steer clear. You can smell unlovedness on a person and no one wants that.
I think it's actually really nice to date perverts who are working out some deep old shit, and they're the easiest people in the world to find. They light up like Christmas trees when you say the magic words. I tried near the end of my dating life to at least find people who are self-consciously processing all that, because at least it's not this "I don't know why I do these things!" bullshit, which is crazy-making. But it turns out that "I sometimes suspect that I bore you and that's what used to turn me on about you because that's how my mother is, but I found someone else who never looks me in the eye, which is a crucial ingredient" is not much better.
34+: Yes. How could you not have risked it? Once you recover, even the agony mostly feels like a fair trade, except little flashes where it's inexplicably fresh.
Agreed with PF in 34. I hate the way people here talk down to people who don't have precisely TV-perfect dyadic relationships about mutual trust and understanding and infinite love. And then we'll find that person and get to be perfect like you! We'll just wait for the right one!
I can't imagine a successful romantic relationship that doesn't involve filling voids in another person's life.
Um, I don't like this language. One person can never fill another persons void. One may be able to help. Maybe. I know you explained this later, but I wanted to point out the initial language I didn't like.
Also, some voids are black holes and are unfillable. People can live with their black holes, though. They can tolerate their partners black holes, too, although that can be difficult.
I think "void" is unnecessarily Christian. "Scratches an itch, but not in a bad way" is perhaps more accurate.
people here talk down
Sampling bias. I'm pretty unhappy, but am not going to open up here any more than I would with a table of people at a bar.
27: Your occupation probably has your immune system cranked up to eleven. I don't imagine a dermatologist would get a kick out of a spouse with crotch-rot either.
I've an acquaintance in a situation even a TV soap writer would find unlikely. I'll perhaps offer some advice by pointing her to the Lewis Machine & Tool or Mayo Clinic sites as appropriate but that's about all. My curiosity is strong enough to maintain contact but I did the bird thing just out of college and don't want a re-run near the end of my run.
39: Void sounds so absolute. I never considered it to be a Christian term, though. I do like your second phrasing. I also agree that being with someone who is more or less self-aware is much better than being with someone who has done no self-inspection at all.
Do you think it is possible for people with your background to have a successful relationships with other people, perhaps those who have had a similar background?
I did not mean "Hero and the Wounded Bird" to sound sexist, but I can see where the language does indicate stereotypes
yes, you have to remember that some birds can actually be heroes themselves, Edith Cavell for example.
38.2: that's more... monadic than seems realistic to me. My being isn't really separate from everything I interact with. Sometimes one other person's action really can patch a void, though not the voids that connect with other, ancient, socially defended voids.
Void void void. Now it looks misspelled.
42: I dunno. I've tried. It seems to work best with people who have at least thought about their motivations and aren't closeted about them anymore. It's really really hard with people who think they should be trying to get into one of those eternal perfect TV-dyads, so they don't want to acknowledge their own behaviors or drives.
I have had quite a few relationships that worked for what they were, and did something I needed to do, and there was mutual psychological itch-scratching and all of that. But the problem is that the drive to get those itches scratched in exactly the right way can sometimes lead to really unethical and uncaring relationship behaviors. Also, I'm not mean--I don't know how to be--so one of the things I just can't ever fulfill for people is the desire to be yelled at or humiliated. I dated someone I really liked for a little while who was the only person who has ever been gracious and entirely clear with me about that. He needed me to be mean to him, I couldn't, and he ended it very kindly and clearly. Most guys are like, "I don't know why I stopped talking to you all of a sudden? I guess I just wanted to get back with that woman I complained to you about the whole time we dated? I think she really needs me?"
37: This is tough. God knows I'm not particularly sane, but my various and horrific dysfunctions don't include wanting to be around people who treat me badly, and (not so much here, but with friends in real life) it's hard looking at someone you care about, who's in that sort of pattern, and haranguing them about "Why don't you just stop! Find someone who likes you, or if that doesn't work, take up a timeconsuming hobby. But quit with the people who keep on hurting you."
And of course that's not useful advice, and giving it is obnoxious. But it is really hard not to feel that way.
But it is really hard not to feel that way.
I think all of us are guilty of saying things are easy and desirable to do just because they're easy for us. (Me to students on "difficult" books: You just read them. With your eyes. Also, maybe relax?)
I think 46 and 47 are right, but I also think the world could generally chill out a bit on the importance of being in a dyadic romantic relationship. Romance is nice and wonderful when it works but FIND A MATE OR YOUR SOUL WILL DIE is wrong and destructive for a lot of people, and also IMO makes it harder for people to enter into nondestructive relationships.
The one thing I found tricky, having dated my own dysfunctional person, is when the psychological itch-scratching is not complimentary or acknowledged and you slowly go from normal person healthy to off without seeing it. Like the frog in slowly heating water.
I didn't want to jump in earlier because the OP hit too close to home. I loved being the only one that my person could stand. It's so nice to feel that special. And when he turned it around and I became the same as everyone else, I really really fought it.
Then I went to therapy and realized how messed up the relationship had gotten and bailed on the whole thing.
48, absolutely. The people I'm thinking of where I'm biting back advice, the advice I'm biting back is much more "I think it'd be a good idea for you to focus on lifeplans that don't require being coupled up," rather than "Why don't you just find someone and be happy like me!"
....have precisely TV-perfect dyadic relationships about mutual trust and understanding and infinite love.
If those were all that common they wouldn't be on TV. Clearly though, close & good involvement with other people can sometimes change one's own personality settings from their defaults going in. I've seen that happen too, as well as the more usual futile repetitions.
Gswift, I would read a whole series of your romance novels.
OP, I would only strengthen what Heebie said about rewarding yourself. People seem to overlook massages, and a new exercise regime calls for maintenance massages. Reading a lot, if that's fun for you. Walking or riding your bike at night will generally feel even better than you expect it to feel, even if you already think it will feel very good. New pet?
I find that academic types find it easy to postpone rewards for themselves indefinitely, but I think they should be frequent, big and small.
I am by nature very shy
FWIW, I wouldn't have guessed that. Other than that, I endorse 29 fully and completely.
FIND A MATE OR YOUR SOUL WILL DIE NO ONE WILL WANT TO BE FRIENDS WITH YOU WHEN YOU MOVE TO A SMALL TOWN.
Seriously, every single one of my friends here is single. Married people, men and women alike, will *not* hang out, not as a couple, not individually. They will talk about it all the time, but never do it. Occasionally one of a couple will show up at a party from 8:30-9 and then rush home, kids or no kids.
The most pressure I've ever had to get into a couple is here, because the married people cannot think of anything else to talk about. One single adult of my acquaintance, who has lived here her whole life, and has a coworker who tells her every day that she needs to be trying harder to get a husband so she can be fulfilled and happy like she is. Ugh!
OP, I would only strengthen what Heebie said about rewarding yourself.
I say "rewarding myself." They say "embezzlement" or "Get your own sandwich."
Sampling bias.
Precisely. I mean, when my relationship with Magpie was ending, it wasn't like I was posting about it here (or would have even if she hadn't commented here). I'm more open about my life than lw is, but still.
and has a coworker who tells her every day that she needs to be trying harder to get a husband so she can be fulfilled and happy like she is.
You should sleep with her husband. He sounds like he's doing a better job that most.
57: Actually, she seems miserable and really brittle. While some "get a husband" advice comes from happy people, a LOT of it comes from those who seem terrifically fragile and sad. See also: "Have kids it's amazing and will change everything you'll be so happy i swear your life now will seem meaningless SHUT THE FUCK UP RILEY MOMMY'S ON THE PHONE"
I don't think people here talk down, as a generalization. This is what it sounds like when you have a huge chorus of people sharing individual opinions. Some of them grate, others are brilliant and insightful.
Opening up on Unfogged is making yourself very vulnerable. But people aren't generally malicious; just sometimes tone-deaf.
58: You should sleep with her husband. He sounds like he could use a break.
60 was probably too soon after 59.2.
53: Yeah, I endorse 29 also. It's what one does to manage grief. I didn't and don't to it very systematically but it's what I do.
54: a coworker who tells her every day that she needs to be trying harder to get a husband so she can be fulfilled and happy like she is
No. Hell no. I believe you'd get your ass kicked if you said something like that to me.
But seriously, to the OP: I haven't had this experience in a romantic relationship, but I had a friendship that moved in a very similar direction -- friend was really brutal to other people, but strangely kind and uplifting to me, really helped me move through a lot of early adulthood issues. Then, he got a taste of success and started treating me (and his few other close friends) like shit all the time. It was really confusing and horrible. Finally, after about 2 and a half years of that kind of treatment, he skipped town on 2 weeks notice and we have not been friendly since then. He still owes me $900 too.
Obviously, I concur with the general consensus that breaking things off sooner rather than later is the only wise move here. But that's really difficult. Good luck.
My advice to the poster is AWB should get a husband.
The news in 29 that jms has a bike is thrilling to me, although the shortest distance between our homes is an utterly unbikeable hill. Bike ride! The only thing I can add to her prescriptions is that listening to "The Scientist" on repeat is helpful. Really, it's the only time in your life that Coldplay is acceptable, although if that is a bridge too far, Aimee Mann has a good version.
I'm not sure I understand pf's queasiness (and AWB's endorsement of same) as it relates to this thread. I'm all for multiple perspectives on dyadic living, and I may put too much stock in my own advice as someone who managed to find himself legally unmarried for less than one calendar year between wives. But I'm not sure how someone reeling from a breakup is being condescended to in the first 33 comments here.
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We have a hipster postal carrier! He wears his blue pants baggy and has a big hipster beard.
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legally unmarried for less than one calendar year between wives
I wonder how it works for taxes if you are legally married to two different people in the same calendar year.
64.3: Because the advice here, always, is that if you're a woman and you're emotionally entangled with a man who isn't perfect, you are a self-destructive, pathetic, psychopath-hunting (or "wounded-bird"-fetishizing) idiot who needs more self-esteem to become normal. It's making belittling archetypes out of someone else's actual experience in order to derive the proper thing to do.
66: That is a neat one! Also, what if you were living with one spouse in one state at the beginning of the year, but then when you remarried you moved to a new state? Also, would you have to get new licenses and passports, even though you were still in the same matrimonial status for legal purposes? And what if you were over 70.5 years old and were taking required minimum distributions from your IRA?
69: I lost $200 bucks to filling out the forms wrong during my year of living in three states. that's what made me wonder about it.
Confidential to k-sky: On Sunday I ran around the RB without stopping. Then I walked around again. (Then I bought a bike. Then I smoked a pack of cigarettes.)
Also: Bike ride!
70: I lost $200 bucks
What were the does going for?
My advice to the poster is AWB should get a husband.
Or possibly several in a range of styles, to match with different outfits.
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Does anyone agree with me that Cyndi Lauper's cover of "When You Were Mine" is better than the Prince version? I just like the fact that she doesn't change the genders, so that the implication is that her male lover is bisexual and left her for a man.
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Because the advice here, always, is that if you're a woman and you're emotionally entangled with a man who isn't perfect, you are a self-destructive, pathetic, psychopath-hunting (or "wounded-bird"-fetishizing) idiot who needs more self-esteem to become normal.
Leaving aside "idiot" and "to become normal" which are hyperbole, this is a selective reading. There's also lots of sympathy and support.
74: There's a really weird Tim McGraw song (which is actually lovely) where he sings from the perspective of a long-suffering wife, married to a man who has become a really angry person. He really owns the song.
Confidential to jms: Nice work! My knees abhor running. QED: bike ride.
AWB, thanks. I see what you were reading, although I disagree that Tripp and gswift's wounded bird/psychopath comments constitute a summary of the entire thread, or unfogged advice in general. Certainly here, there's quite a bit of pushback.
I happen to favor LB's 14.2 which sets aside the question of What The Dude Is and applies itself to the question of What He's Doing That Makes Her Unhappy. A good general principle, which avoids unnecessary archetyping.
74 see also Michelle N'degeocello's cover of Bill Withers's "Who Was That And What Was He To You."
re: 78
Ugh, it's OK, but definitely prefer the Withers version. Her version seems a bit karaoke, to me. But I do like the Creative Source version of the same, all 12 minutes of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSGLTbXh_JU
One of those disco/funk/early-garage sort of mixes.
79 comes over more music snob than I meant. Gah.
It's OK. I just assumed you didn't like sex.
I mean, it sounds like the setup for the kind of Hitchcock movie where something uncovers the trauma and suddenly our hero/ine gets sane again.
Marnie: not actually a very good movie, even aside from the rapeyness.
Heh at 81. Touche, and all that. Does that mean you think the N'degeocello version is sexy? Serious question, not music snob assholery. As it totally doesn't do it for me.
82: There's a couple: Marnie, but also the one with the skiing and the dreams designed by Dali. I can't think of the name, maybe Spellbound?
Oh, yeah, I forgot about Spellbound. I kind of like its brand of psycho-wackiness.
Does that mean you think the N'degeocello version is sexy? Serious question, not music snob assholery. As it totally doesn't do it for me.
Personally I like the N'degeocello version but it probably helps that I am not familiar with the original.
I also keep wanting to like N'degeocello more than I do and thinking that, by all rights, (a significant fraction of) her music should be sexy but just doesn't quite work for me.
So, "Who is he and what is he to you" is one of my favorite Me'Shell N'degeocello songs, but in the context of wanting to find songs of hers to like.
There's a category of mid-century middlebrow intellectual fiction that took Freud and buried trauma and all that sort of thing very very seriously, exactly in the vein of those movies, and that I find fascinating: it's generally written by clever, interesting people, who somehow didn't see that it's wildly false to how people actually behave.
83: Yes, but I hear where you're coming from on the "karaoke" allegation. It's a very lushly produced album that I like a lot. (The one following is even lusher, almost all strings, which I like as a direction for her.)
Does anyone agree with me that Cyndi Lauper's cover of "When You Were Mine" is better than the Prince version?
Yes!
I loved being the only one that my person could stand. It's so nice to feel that special.
So seductive, and so destructive.
26: Disagree. I had something similar happen to me once (similar in the sudden vanishing of relationship energy on the other end), and finding out the reason was she had slept with her ex from a three-year, dysfunctional as hell relationship she was clearly not over yet helped me come to terms with the break-up and move on much more easily.
Oh, finding out would be satisfying and maybe helpful. Trying to find out, though, is doomed.
re: 88
That whole maxim that people give as advise to writers: 'show don't tell'? To me it seems like her version is someone 'telling' (via certain 'sexy' musical and vocal tropes) rather than 'showing'. But that may also just be because, as you say, there's a certain (period-specific) lushness that I'm not responding to.
68: "Because the advice here, always, is that if you're a woman and you're emotionally entangled with a man who isn't perfect, you are a self-destructive, pathetic, psychopath-hunting (or "wounded-bird"-fetishizing) idiot who needs more self-esteem to become normal."
Maybe this could be taken from what I said but what I really mean is that being single is awesome. Being entangled with a man who is not perfect (in a way that destroys you) is so much worse than being alone. Being single is the best thing ever.
If you find someone who makes being with someone better than being single, great but IME, that's really hard (if you like being single).
And, yeah, to 86.2. Ditto. I seem to recall liking her tracko on the Red, Hot and Cool album, with Herbie Hancock, but most of her stuff I'm cold on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Moments:_Red_Hot_%2B_Cool
Advice. Advice to writers. Bah.
I endorse 34. I especially like the first point, sometimes learning from mistakes just makes things worse. (The city of Zobeide in Invisible Cities always brings home this point to me.)
Counterpoint to 91, I think it was counterproductive for my moving on to find out that the reason my ex suddenly dropped all contact and then broke up with me when she did contact me two weeks later was that she'd dated someone else during that time. If you want to continue to value what you had, there's an argument for not finding out too much so that you can preserve the memory of what you had before rather than undermining it with new information.
54: Hmm...
My girlfriend and I find it hard to get some of our single friends to come to our parties. They are too busy going out and drinking. (Why can't they just stay in and drink with us?)
But maybe small town mores are different.
Then there's always what the Latinophile food critic exclaimed after he found that his Japanese-style fried eel was of the wrong species:
O tempura, O morays!
97: Might be true for some. For me, finding out I've been done wrong invariably conjures up genuine feelings of "good riddance".
I never had a problem making coupled-up friends in the city. I only had a few very close straight male married friends whose wives I wasn't also close friends with, but still, I had them. Here I can't even seem to get a woman who has a partner of any sort to hang out with me.
Chiming in late to say that I agree with 34 as well. On staying in touch, that depends on how much it will hurt either way and on his behaviour. I do think that being long distance makes it an easier possibility.
I'd also say that the notion of seeking to fix oneself through an intense, serious relationship seems batshit insane to me. Relationships are dangerous enough without putting that sort of extra pressure on them. Even entering into a serious relationship when damaged seems risky. But that may just be because my own peronal fuckedupedness comes in large part from a seriously dysfunctional romantic relationship. But that in turn makes me think you need to pull out sooner rather than later. Once a relationship is hurting this much over an extended period of time it's very much a negative, and the less time you spend in such a state the less damage you'll sustain.
I especially like the first point, sometimes learning from mistakes just makes things worse.
Nononono. That's not what I was going for. I'm saying that, based on the facts supplied, there's no obvious Big Lesson the original poster needs to learn here.
Deliberately papering over the truth is a huge mistake. She's quite right to want to know what happened to this guy 18 months ago, even if that knowledge would be discomfiting. (But yes, in the big picture, knowledge of what happened might not change much.)
Read the original question up to the paragraph that begins "Until eighteen months ago." If you leave out the foreshadowing*, such as "Part of me knew ...," then you've got a tale that could have quite reasonably been expected to have a happy ending.
My point is, some things you just have to live through, and the only available life lesson here is something like: Some things you just have to live through.
Other things, however, you need to be goddam sure that you don't have to live through twice. I don't see any of those things in this example.
*any relationship question directed to the Mineshaft is properly read with ominous theme music in the background.
I agree with 105, so I think I misstated things before...
As a somewhat chilly and offputting person, I can offer this advice to the OP: it's not your fault. Sometimes people like us just f-ck things up, and are sorry, and try to be better, and get worse instead. It sounds like Mr. Robot is taking care of himself in the way he knows how to. Quite possibly the best thing you can do at this point is leave, and take care of yourself.
I'd also say that the notion of seeking to fix oneself through an intense, serious relationship seems batshit insane to me. Relationships are dangerous enough without putting that sort of extra pressure on them.
Preach it.
Am I making it up or is there a plot point in Marnie that hinges on American regional variations in word stress?
And is it Spellbound with the weird throwaway line about ketchup?
Other mid-century films with psychology stuff: The Red House, Kings Row (starring Reagan), titles I can't remember right now.
Oh Kings Row, that's a weird one. One is sorry to report that Reagan gives an enjoyable performance.
Ok, late to the party (and haven't read the whole thread, and almost never make it to the party anymore...), but I just wanted to say I relate to the OP from both sides. I know there have been a few times of tragedy in my life during which I wanted to discuss it with no one, during which I wanted to connect with no one, during which hermit was more or less the desired status. I think, in my case anyway, it's safe to call that depression. Possibly true as well for the romantic interest in the OP. From that perspective, I sort of flinch at the advice to DTMFA, he's worthless, he's an asshole, etc. I mean, I suppose it's true that a he's kind of being an asshole, but I also see it as sort of a sad state of being an asshole to push people away in an attempt to hide (from) the pain.
On the other side, as someone who has invested a fair amount of time in "wounded birds" as it were, I am also sympathetic to the advice that you can't fix someone, and shouldn't feel that it's your responsibility to do so. Still, if you love someone you can try to help them fix themselves and shouldn't feel like a sucker or doormat for doing so. My current special someone is going through a rough patch at the moment and there have been those special moments in which he bites my head off because he's pissed about the 17 other things going wrong. Two things I (we?) are learning: (1) when he bites my head off, my going ballistic in response is not helpful. If I do that, we just have a two hour metafight about the nature of fighting. If I say, "That's not okay," and walk away, he doesn't get immediately defensive, has and takes time to reflect, and will apologize for whatever it was that was not okay. (2) If he's stressed about 17 things that are going wrong and I bombard him with 15 things I think he should do to solve his problems, it's pretty much a guarantee that he's going to meltdown.
I guess I'm trying to say that, if you still want it to work and you believe there's a realistic chance that it can, there's nothing wrong with you for wanting to keep trying. I like LB's suggestion above for leaving him (and, by extension, yourself) in peace for a month and coming back when you're both (hopefully) a bit more rested and a bit more healed to evaluate where it's going.
You make me laugh, Moby Hick, tone deaf snark & all.
Di! I'm so glad to hear that you're learning to deal with different preferred ways of dealing with difficult situations. That was a tough one to learn on our end, and it's one of the first things to go when life gets too stressful. Your comment was a good reminder for me.
I'm so glad to hear that you're learning to deal with different preferred ways of dealing with difficult situations.
This is kind of a hilarious compliment.
114: Thanks. Its a weird feeling of accomplishment to get through something that could have been a fight but then isn't.
115: I don't get it. Why is this hilarious.
115: You're right. That sounded more patronizing than anything else in the thread, I think, but I meant it genuinely! It seemed that they're a couple with some major differences of opinion or belief (again I'm going to word this badly!) and that some of the problems they were having arose from being unable to bridge them successfully. I'm just glad to hear that those things are working better and especially that Di's Guy is getting insight into things he could do more effectively,
Many thanks imaginary internet friends - should anyone see this post tucked away in the archives. (I was given the opportunity to get out of town & offline for a long weekend, & jumped at it.) There is some really good practical advice here, which I plan on at least trying to initiate with the start of the week ahead.
While I was away, it also dawned on me that I am mostly crippled with guilt at the realisation I am about to walk away from someone I think is in a terrible terrible place emotionally, but if that's where he wants to stay & I find it unendurably grim, the guilt might still be better in the end.