I have similar questions - is it actively unpleasant for her? Or is it a disinterest in lighter, flirtier activities?
But this points me in a different direction:
She says that when she was younger she enjoyed it because other physical activities were constrained, but being in a long term relationship if she has interest in physical affection she prefers other activities.
Kissing-when-youthful, to me, recalls prolonged sessions of nothing else, and frankly I'm not that interested in kissing sessions anymore, either.
About all I'm interested in is some preliminary kissing-while-chatting, and then some frenchier while all fooling around is getting heavier. But not isolated kissing sessions.
Does she mean kissing is off the table during all bedroom encounters, like "kiss along his chinline/neck BUT AVOID THE MOUTH"? Because that's a different question than if you're asking for teenage makeout session.
I am afraid I would find this complaint more plausible coming from a woman. As I guy I could do without kissing just fine as long as everything else remained on the menu. So perhaps there is more to the story.
... you could withhold sex until she makes out with you, ...
This does not strike me as a good idea.
2: Shouldn't you be knee deep in a 15 hour exam, young man?
the idea of spending time doing something that's sexual but not about to progress immediately to sex?
If it were a man, this would be my first thought.
Hmm. I don't know that I have advice so much as empathy. When I was with UNG, kissing was more or less exclusively a prelude to sex (or attempted sex), which made it a decidedly unappealing activity (i.e., as if participating in said kissing was implied assent to further activity). One of the nicest things about my last relationship was kissing just to kiss. There's just something decidedly affectionate and nurturing about agenda-free kissing.
If I need 5 minutes of making out on the couch each day to be happy in our relationship, she will oblige. However, it's obviously not the same when one party sees it as a chore.
So you would want an old-fashioned make-out session if she were into it? See, this leads me to think I'm on the same page as she is. I'm okay with kissing but five minutes on the couch each day sounds terrible.
Oh, I do agree with 6, though, too. Maybe I don't have a consistent opinion on this after all.
And, dude, LB. I hope the part about withholding sex was tongue in cheek.* Using sex to manipulate other behavior is just not good. (I mean, manipulating your partner is bad, period. But even worse when sex is involved. Eek.)
*Sorry, Bill. Don't mean to rub that in.
7/9. That can be quite consistent. Enjoying making out when it feels right for both people is one thing; "OMG, it's 6:30, have to stick my tongue in partner's mouth for five minutes" is quite another.
I am realizing that I'm not sure exactly what Bill wants. Makeout sessions as foreplay? Makeout sessions freestanding, not as foreplay? Any kissing at all ever? Kissing during sex?
Would buying a Camero and parking behind the shelter belt help?
10: Huh. Using sex to manipulate your partner into giving you sex seems morally okay to me. I mean, if it comes down to twisting their arm into something they really don't want to do, that's different. But "You primarily enjoy Activity A, and don't mind Activity B but you're not very into it. I really really want Activity B. If we treat B then A as a package deal, I get what I want, you get what you want, and maybe you start associating B with A and get into it more" doesn't seem wrongful at all.
On the other hand, I can't say as I've ever gone there personally. Possibly it'd feel wronger in practice.
Or you start associating A with B and become turned off by it and do less of both. See, e.g., 6.
14. But my reading of the OP is that Hillary does object to Activity B (she doesn't enjoy it any more); therefore making A dependent on B is like telling a kid they can't have dessert unless they eat their spinach. Only worse.
On preview, what di said.
God, I haven't been kissed in months and months. I hardly remember it. But I do feel like there are people I've been with that I never got sick of kissing, and others whose kisses cloyed the appetites they fed. I guess I can see having a multi-year relationship in which making out gets boring, but as an occasional thing to do it's still pretty exciting. 5 continuous minutes every day does seem a bit extreme.
The volunteering for a daily makeout session if Bill wants it seems to imply that she doesn't hate the idea, it's just never on her agenda as what she really wants to do next. And the OP says that she used to enjoy kissing back when she was younger and going straight to having sex wasn't an option -- if that's a straightforward description of what's going on with her (as opposed to revulsion at kissing that she doesn't want to be straightforward about), it seems as if recreating the conditions under which she did enjoy kissing, that slightly frustrated teenager feeling, might make it hotter for her.
If kissing is really unpleasant or revolting for her, that's not going to work. But if she's just in a "Look, we're both busy people, can we cut to the chase here?" place and that's making him unhappy, slowing things down and asking for kissier foreplay as a prerequisite to sex might mean they both had more fun.
I'm picturing her as a CPR trainer who is all about the job.
Wow, I'd never heard the term "shelterbelt" before. "Windbreak" for sure, but not "shelterbelt."
Also, see point (4) of the original post -- she's explicitly willing to work on this.
23 seems right. Could be that these folks are just too busy and need to go stay at a prudish family member's house. Separate twin beds, here we come! Or not!
If you pursue option #4, arrange it so the third party only makes out with you as a build up to other activities with your long term partner. That way, when the make out session is over, the third party can say to the long term partner "Here, I warmed him up for you."
25: You should visit the great plains more.
1- Just going by Hillary's explanation, it's specifically kissing. Cuddling watching movies is fine, sex is fine (although currently constrained due to an injury), but even kissing during sex is discouraged. I mean, sometimes it happens because our mouths are there but she doesn't really want that part to happen.
What I said about continuum vs. tree applies to foreplay- she doesn't see kissing as necessary to get started. Also I would just like it other times when sex is not available (i.e., due to current injury). As for technique, LB, I can just go by what she says about it not being me specifically but kissing in general. Early in our relationship she said my technique was good but I suppose that might have been because you don't tell a new partner they suck as kissing.
7- The five minutes was an example she gave as being willing to do whatever I ask for, that would probably be excessive. I'm thinking a kiss when I get home (more than a peck), some kissing in bed without progressing sex, other occasional times, not dedicated sessions. But she says those would be unpleasant, she'd do it if I asked but wouldn't really like it.
13- We did keep the one from the previous tenants who were a couple of gay guys so maybe it has bad mojo for heterosexuals.
14- Mostly any kissing at all, some during sex, maybe occasional French (which is totally off the table), again, the five minute session was just an example but not something I specifically asked for.
Plus, "windbreak" sounds too much like "breaking wind" for a conversation about making out.
By "totally off the table", I mean under the current situation- even when we do kiss (like during sex), no tongue involved. She says she'd do that too if I really wanted.
30: are you asking me to make out with you? I'm flattered, but no thanks.
32: And "shelterbelt" has no potential relevant connotations?
35: It's a positive connotation of the warmth of another's flatulence arms.
Has Hillary been reading "50 Shades of Grey"? If so, maybe you should spank her first.
totally off the table
Have you tried making out on the table instead of the couch?
Some couches are bad making-out couches. I'm not naming any names.
To #3, I would suggest that kissing is not universally considered cheating in this world. I remember when a friend called me the morning after a wild birthday party at my then-boyfriend's house to tell me that I must not ask her any questions because the truth is too horrific to bear, but I must break up with my boyfriend immediately. I asked if something violent happened, and no, but, but. But. He kissed her. I was like, dude, he also sat naked in the backyard in full view of all the neighbors. I wouldn't sweat it. I'm not sure I get the ZOMG reaction to extrapartnerial kissing.
That said, it is shitty to go around getting your smooch rocks off with others if the boundaries are not clearly explained.
Perhaps you could try only kissing in places where you can't have sex. E.g. when you're out together, have a bit of a snog in a quiet corner.
Hey, remember that time we decided to kiss anywhere but the mouth?
Cruel Inside Joke Response: Have you considered couples therapy?
Humorless Old Guy Response: She knows all about kissing, how it feels physically and emotionally, and isn't particularly interested. Do stuff she is interested in. She knows how you feel about kissing, and so if you slip a little in, very rarely, chances are she'll go along. Keep it short enough, and you'll never see her bored with it. And who knows, maybe, in some alchemical way that is the exact opposite of fake it til you make it, she'll end up being interested in those short bursts.
Hillary is a pornstar and this relationship is doomed. Any number of interviews have them saying kissing is off limits unless there's love.
I was like, dude, he also sat naked in the backyard in full view of all the neighbors.
I think that would get somebody arrested in my neighborhood.
The guy from Nebraska taking Polaroids?
The backyards aren't very isolated. Even after dark, when the moon is up, I have to go inside to pee.
Perhaps you could try only kissing in places where you can't have sex.
That appears to be her preference, yes. Oh, wait... not how you meant it.
31: Yeah, that sounds like she really physically dislikes it, not just that it's not her favorite thing. I'd start introspecting about what the kissing does for you, and see how you can get that some other way. Symbolic affection? Maybe channel that into hugging/snuggling/fondling/you kissing her other than on the mouth if she doesn't mind that? The literal oral sensation for you? Again, maybe non-mutual kissing if that's not what she minds.
But that does really sound as if there's not much room for persuasion. If she really dislikes it, she dislikes it.
Bill, in your situation, I'd probably really throw myself into cunnilingus. Much of the oral satisfaction of kissing can be replicated.
throw myself into cunnilingus.
Pro tip -- symbolically, not literally. Severe impact is contraindicated.
Or in situations where nudity is also contraindicated, try neck nuzzling. Don't underestimate the semi-erogenous bit behind the collar bone.
Sounds to me like the couple needs to go out on more dates.
Don't underestimate the semi-erogenous bit behind the collar bone.
I tried that and they always go into a faint.
So, nosy question, but you're the one who wrote in with an ATM.
If the issue is just the literal kissing thing, that seems very soluble, and no big deal. On the other hand, it seems possible that what's bothering you is that while Hillary's willing to do a fair amount to keep you happy, she doesn't particularly want to be physically affectionate with you, and you're feeling deprived of affection, not just of literal kissing, and worried about what the lack of affection means in terms of how she feels about you. Is that part of what's going on? Because that seems like a bigger issue, if it's there.
If you want physical affection aside from sex, you could always get a dog.
Do you stay cleanshaven? A light scruff can be abrasive pretty quickly. (I have heard a full beard is softer.)
Walking in my neighborhood the other day, I saw a woman wearing ankle boots covered in shearling, with chunky wooden heels that looked like hooves. It was like someone had designed a shoe to drive a sheepdog mad with the need to herd -- I didn't have DogBreath with me, but I'm guessing she would have been at the end of the leash, straining to nip at the woman's ankles.
Sorry, that was totally off-topic. Something about 55 brought it to mind.
55 wasn't exactly on-topic in terms of being useful.
55:No kissing would a total dealbreaker for us.
What? Dogs love to kiss. Mine is particularly adept about slipping me the tongue.
Sigh. Now I just really want to kiss someone.
62: My dog isn't currently seeing anyone.
Dogs love to kiss.
Tweety's aunt has a rescue dog that is still, after several years with her, very skittish and prone to snapping and even biting if you approach him wrong. It breaks my heart to see the dog sitting there and very clearly wanting affection from humans, but no one except Tweety's aunt can pet him. I recently discovered that if you get down on the dog's level and make kissing noises at him, he will come over and kiss you.
What about the canonical pork chop tied around the neck?
(I have heard a full beard is softer.)
You never kissed a guy with a full beard?
I'm mostly surprised because it's not like you need Grizzly Adams to get softness; my whiskers are pretty soft after 2 weeks, and they grow slowly (although that may coincide with finer/softer hairs; we're at n=1 here).
AFAICT, dogs and cats are not crazy about being kissed or licked by humans, my impression is that they think it is a little weird. Humans have talented hands to give affection. It is not wise to aggressively move your own face toward an animal's face.
But the kissing and licking (and small nips) of a human face is very important in a human-dog/cat relationship of mutual trust and affection. It is the time the human trusts and accepts a slightly subordinate position, and not flinching or drawing back is critical.
I think dogs do accept a certain asymmetry between the species, and they need to observe and have some access to a humans hands and face.
Cats bump noses with humans when you are treating them right, Not sure about kids.
Also not sure how I feel about human mouth-kissing, since it is soooo Western. I like it.
On the side dispute in the OP: 12 years in, we kiss way more than Bill and Hill, but I do sometimes wish we kissed more. We peck all the time and often will kiss fully on the lips, but tongue is oddly rare. I've never asked if this is a thing (and it may, in fact, be whisker-driven), but there it is.
Actually, a major factor may be that it's because we most often have morning sex, and morning breath discourages open mouth kissing. I'll have to start keeping a log.
I'm very pro-beard, unless the person shaves basically daily. Cause that one-day shit is scratchy as hell. Keep the beard. Looks cute, feels good, less upkeep for you less annoyance for me.
I find it amusing how much my opinion on this has changed over the years. As an adolescent slash barely adult I thought facial hair was disgusting (although some of that could have been socially-encouraged posturing). Now I think a well-groomed beard (no neck hair, guys, seriously) is plain old sexy.
And also beards are much more en vogue now. I wonder if and when the non-ironic mustache will come back into fashion.
I'll have to start keeping a log.
They're shooting a Twin Peaks remake in Pittsburgh?
I haven't read a single comment, but I hope I'm not the first to say that this whole thing only makes sense if the "partner" is a hooker. In which case, pay some more money, you cheapskate -- this isn't the secret service.
we most often have morning sex
I've always wanted to be one of the people that did this. Sounds like a very nice way to start out the day. But man, I am just not wired that way. I've actually come to the conclusion that my prime sex-desiring hours are about 2-6 pm. Which is really inconvenient, given that whole work thing.
Do long-time couples actually have sex in the morning like, on weekdays? This is amazing to me.
I'm very pro-beard, unless the person shaves basically daily.
Are there many post-college men who don't shave daily and don't have a beard?
since it is soooo Western
A couple of former gfs beg to differ. Kissing is universally awesome, except with dogs, when it's gross.
I'm thinking I haven't. My gentleman callers have been clean-shaven. Maybe one had an artistic beard, but I don't remember a texture.
morning breath discourages open mouth kissing
Protip: keep a tart apple by the bedside.
I wonder if and when the non-ironic mustache will come back into fashion.
I'm pretty sure it already is. You could argue about the irony level with which some people are sporting it, but it's common enough to have moved beyond hipsterdom, I would say.
Protip: keep a tart apple by the bedside.
Or an apple tart. Or just a pie.
75: Me.
80: They go to work looking like Sonny Crockett wanna-bes from 1984?
83 before seeing 82. And I'm sure it looks great on you.
76:I hear tell McDonald's and KFC have also gotten around in the last century. Try Wiki, rather than getting your knowledge from a couple mogos
My heart agrees with Halford in 73, but I have so much trouble accepting the European societies have been more affectionate, and treated women better, for fucking millenia than say Asians. Just sticks in my craw.
I think I'd find it pretty weird to be with someone who actively and definitively stopped wanting to kiss me, since kissing is among other things a means of affirming emotional attachment. A couple needn't be making out like teenagers for half an hour every day, but turning off the tap altogether? With a lot of people it would be a signal of more general withdrawal.
OTOH I'm sentimental about kissing. Since Science tells us that on the veldt, men are supposed to view kissing as a means to an end, I should probably find out what has corrupted the purity of my masculine essence... but long, lazy makeout sessions have never lost their charm for me. It's not a question of not having to put up with them anymore because, as an adult, I can just have sex now.
bob, I don't kiss people who eat at McDonald's. It leads to stinky breath.
86.last: For some values of "now".
85:make that "moga" dammit, モダンガール modan gaaru
Huh, I guess pwned by 73, which puts the point a bit more bluntly. But Bob is right that we also need to factor in whether the President is getting any nose-rubbing or eyelash-nibbling action.
89: Yeah. And in theory and all that.
Present-day Japanese women generally don't feel that being modern makes them less Japanese, imperialist.
Since comment threads are more fun if people take extreme, only semi-defensible positions, I'm going to be that guy and stake out the "your relationship is doomed" space. If the lack of kissing was made up for by general physical compatibility and affection in other areas, you'd be satisfied and we wouldn't be getting an ATM question. Since we are getting the question, you're most likely seriously physically incompatible, which is super difficult to fix (unless there's an obvious explanation, like one of you has stopped grooming). Therefore, doomed. Get out and find a smooch compatible babe, before you're caught with Monica.
I'll take the other extreme position. After a relationship has progressed to the point that genitals are involved, open-mouthed kissing should stop completely. Closed-mouth kissing should only be used in public or semi-public situations where not showing affection might cause people to talk (i.e. at the wedding of the couple).
74: On the rare occasion that we've ditched the kids someplace, yep. Mornings are nice.
Get out and find a smooch compatible babe
How can you be sure of this? After all, it sounds like Hillary seemed smoooch compatible enough for a good while.
Kamikaze Girls is fun for all of us with the heart of a 14 year old girl. Or maybe 12. Clean and sweet while being just transgressive and play-mean enough. I liked that the "Lolly" was the cynical nihilist, and the rough biker chick had the social values.
And none of the yechhy smooching suff, especially with dogs.
94: Not to be all "your relationship is doomed" as well, but point 3 in the original post would worry me a bit along the same lines, mostly because you weren't dead sure it was a joke.
95: Oral Stalinist. If you're willing to use open mouths on one another's genitals, open mouthed kissing should obviously be on the table.
Assumes facts not in evidence. Maybe oral sex is limited to closed mouth nuzzling as well.
102: You can't do both at once so therefore you must pick one or the other.
103: My God, that would be frustrating.
104: There's wisdom there, it's true.
101 seems right to me.
If we're staking out extreme positions let me suggest going for it on #3 as if it were dead serious. Advertize on Craigslist for a smooch mate. I bet they're out there.
I've actually come to the conclusion that my prime sex-desiring hours are about 2-6 pm. Which is really inconvenient, given that whole work thing.
THIS. Or earlier in the day, whatever. I am just completely beat in the evenings, and it is a really inconvenient circadian rhythm.
I have an office with a door, so no worries.
Walking in my neighborhood the other day, I saw a woman wearing ankle boots covered in shearling, with chunky wooden heels that looked like hooves. It was like someone had designed a shoe to drive a sheepdog mad with the need to herd -- I didn't have DogBreath with me, but I'm guessing she would have been at the end of the leash, straining to nip at the woman's ankles.
Isn't there some short story about the devil driving up and hitting on this young girl who has stayed home from church, and he has cloven hooves in his boots? (It's at least a country song, I know that much. He drives a Coup Deville.)
Ooh, wait, I meant option 3 in 29.
108: Office sex can be pretty good. Risky, but...
Come to think, possibly the shoes were meant to attract Welshmen.
75: In workplaces where t-shirts and men's sandals are considered acceptable, shaving need not occur every day. O what hath casual Fridays wrought?
Don't underestimate the semi-erogenous bit behind the collar bone.
It never would have occurred to me to find the rotator cuff sexy.
Once I saw a complete silverware set where all the handles were animal hooves, ranging from probably deer to maybe raccoons or rabbits. There's a picture of it in the archives of my personal blog, somewhere.
(It's at least a country song, I know that much. He drives a Coup Deville.)
I don't know that song, but it makes me think of this song as well (which contains neither devil nor boots but seems related anyway).
113: Then they also should have a ribbon to indicate she doesn't kick.
117: I was thinking of Brokenheartsville.
I shave like once a week. Sometimes less. I think it is an expression of something, but it might also be that my skin has gotten all sensitive since I took youse guys's stupidhead advice and started using shaving cream, and protests at being shaven too often.
What did you shave with before, Smearcase? No shaving cream, just water? A knapped rock?
71.3: I missed this earlier, and I'm curious: what is a non-ironic mustache, as opposed to an ironic one?
I shave every day and now that I have learned how to hone the disposable cartridges, I get about 6 to 8 weeks from a blade.
Lately I've taken to lightly "shaving" the soap and then my face. Works pretty well with my current razor.
123: LB got you to quit trying to home them?
I dedicate this classic country song to the OP.
Or possibly this one is more appropriate.
126: Cream doesn't shave well, and ice cream's too cold.
I "invented" this on a trip after the 2nd or 3rd time I lost my shaving cream at the airport (alternating road trips and flying trips screw me up).
I too shave about once a week, because my face can't handle any more than that, plus, shaving is tedious. A, um, woman of my acquaintance says that 3-4 days' growth is optimal.
120. Try this stuff. Most of their products are usable by the most sensitive bodies. I just use the bar soap from the same firm, but I know some people don't like shaving with soap.
It never would have occurred to me to find the rotator cuff sexy.
Oh... I still reminisce about the kisses of a man at just that spot. I melt thinking about it. Come to think of it, there may be only one man who has ever kissed me there, and just that once. But, oh. Kudos, that guy, kudos. Yes, I recommend highly paying attention to just that spot.
I would be happier with more kissing, but then we'd have to find time and energy for it and I can see why it doesn't happen. I think that's mostly a new-parent thing, but also think it might be normal that as relationships get older it's easier for kissing to fall by the wayside. It is also, as ever, possible that I'm just really bad at relationships and quickly suck all joy out of the heart of anyone who'd ever care for me or something like that. That's generally my worry.
It is also, as ever, possible that I'm just really bad at relationships and quickly suck all joy out of the heart of anyone who'd ever care for me or something like that. That's generally my worry.
Ol' Buzzkill Thorn, worrying about being a buzzkill. Again.
121: Yes, hot water. Sometimes a bit of soap. There is a fascinating discussion of it somewhere in TFA.
135: I am giggling at my desk, so clearly you're whatever the opposite of a buzzkill is.
It's not that all non-policeman mustaches are "ironic" per se --- clearly an aesthetic has developed around them that The Kids These Days appreciate --- it's that they are necessarily "knowing": to wear a mustache is to be The Guy That Wears A Mustache. Beards, on the other hand, are a free-for-all.
(That second link is balls, m. leblanc.)
sex is fine (although currently constrained due to an injury)
This part seems relevant and I'm surprised no one has mentioned it so far.
A non-ironic mustache is a mustache that a person wears because he believes it looks good.
An ironic mustache is a mustache that a person wears because he believes it is amusing.
142: But then the non-ironic mustache has been back in fashion for a decade.
139: Surely there have been way too many mustaches around for too long for this to be true.
Do people more commonly have mustaches in Canada or something?
I'll buy that distinction in 142. I still think that more than half the mustaches I see around here are non-ironic.
it's that they are necessarily "knowing": to wear a mustache is to be The Guy That Wears A Mustache
If you follow this logic, you'll never style yourself in any way that might be distinctive. (I don't buy that a mustache is some special case.)
Surely there have been way too many mustaches around for too long for this to be true.
All right then. Mustaches which refer to the Dying Gaul are not ironic; those which refer to the emperor Elagabalus are ironic.
That long enough for you?
140: Sex is in some ways less intimate than kissing. To some people, at least. That's why I don't think the sex part counts against the suspicion that there is a deeper problem. Depends on the sex, too. If it's boring old routine or crazy swinging from the chandelier shrieking like a couple of baboons on crystal meth makes a big difference.
151: I was referring specifically to the "currently constrained" part.
I was wondering a bit about that -- an injury that completely rules out sex for long enough to notice is either fairly severe or indicative of a lack of either motivation or problem solving skills.
I hate to be wrecking the Clintons' marriage here, but there does seem to be stuff going on. Or not going on.
boring old routine or crazy swinging from the chandelier shrieking like a couple of baboons on crystal meth
Which of these is supposed to be the more intimate one?
OT: One has been informed that one will be attending something titled Götterdämmerung this evening. I understand that this brief, light operetta is comprised of broadly (some say clownishly) comical vignettes of Belle Époque Paris, but please correct me if I am wrong. My real question: At what point do I start the Wave ("Woooo! Classical music!"? Is it tier-by-tier? Does the conductor give a signal or something?
I agree with 141 and Halford's "it's doomed" theory. I could find it really easy to fuck someone I was sort of out of love with (but still liked, like in a friendly married people kinda way), but passionate kissing would get old real fast in that circumstance. Sex can feel good just because of the feeling, but with kissing I feel like you pretty much have to be into the person (or it's a new relationship/fuckship) for it to be in any way enjoyable.
Of course, surely there are people who just genuinely don't enjoy kissing. In which case I am full of shit.
It's cute when Flip is a NYC WASP doing an impersonation of a hapless sitcom hetero doofus doing his impersonation of a NYC WASP.
159: He's like the anti-David Brooks!
159: I'm from New England, originally.
155: When the dragon comes out, you throw the toast.
157 is probably right, but I'd also like to think there might be phases? I mean, if this is just a relationship, by all means, break up now, but if there are kids and property involved, it might be worth some kind of more serious intervention.
I'm from New England, originally.
Even better.
OK. Since nobody else will say it, Götterdämmerung is fucking awesome. It was a 19th century attempt at creating a multimedia event, it's extremely extreme, and all you have to do is sit there and let it roll over you.
Enjoy.
Or we could all just be absolutely wrong and she just physically doesn't like kissing. I started all the worrying about the subtext of the question, but it easily might be that there's no subtext going on.
If you follow this logic, you'll never style yourself in any way that might be distinctive.
Because to be "knowing" is such a terrible thing? It's just the post^n-modern (n >= 2, I've lost track) ethos at work.
(I don't buy that a mustache is some special case.)
Oh, it's not. The same logic applies to bow ties and sweater vests, fedora hats and granny glasses.
154: I think you need a certain level of mutual affection to be having baboon sex after you've been together for a while. The regular routine stuff just requires showing up.
Whenever anyone sings "Siegfried" you yell "asshole!" and whenever anyone sings "Brunnhilde" you yell "slut!"
A friend just said he isn't going this evening and I told him he's missing the funniest moment of the LePage Ring. You'll know when you get there.
Or we could all just be absolutely wrong and she just physically doesn't like kissing.
I actually think this is the mostly likely answer.
OPERA THREAD!!!
[somewhere in the distance, a faucet drips. time passes. a bird sings a wistful tune.]
168.last: Tan shoes and pink shoelaces, a polkadot vest and man oh man, tan shoes and pink shoelaces and a big Panama with a purple hat band!
OPERA THREAD!!!
This has really been your week, hasn't it?
Oh, the injury is minor, just a 7-10 day thing. Dermatology stitches thing, just happens to be right now. Unrelated to the non kissing which is much longer term.
We bought our first toy recently which made things more interesting on that front.
174 to the perennial question of what to wear to the opera.
Since there hasn't been much effort so far to develop ideas for item 4 of the OP, let me be the first to suggest heroin lip gloss.
I knew it was going to be Anna Russell!
I know nothing about opera, but the line "Because Hagen gives Siegfried a magic potion that makes him forget all about Brünnhilde and fall in love with Gutrune Gibich...who by the way is the only woman that Siegfried has ever come across who hasn't been his aunt. ..." has stuck with me forever.
Because to be "knowing" is such a terrible thing?
Not necessarily! But I was reading your comment as saying it was. I think we're more on the same page than I thought.
If you follow this logic, you'll never style yourself in any way that might be distinctive.
That's certainly always my policy.
Dragon: toast. [Scribbles notes.] Good, good.
181. It's a lovely line, but she stole it from Victor Borge (I think she credits him elsewhere).
181: I know nothing about opera,
Same here other than it ain't over 'til the wet ladies get the ring.
I took the name of my opera blog from Victor Borge.
157: Fuck Halford, it's MY theory and was so back at 43. Anyone know anything about IP law around here?
Fuck Halford
But on no account kiss him.
If you follow this logic, you'll never style yourself in any way that might be distinctive. (I don't buy that a mustache is some special case.)
I'm not going to argue this strongly, but I think that the mustache is at least a semi-special case because it was deeply out of fashion for a long time. So much so that people frequently use the term "pornstache" to refer to, well, mustaches. Like, your standard, 2-3 weeks' worth of whiskers above the lips, extending just beyond the corners of the mouth, was viewed as so outré that people had to hearken back to black socks, filmed-on-film porn to describe it.
Now, there's no reason mustaches couldn't have come back from that as just a normally fashionable thing; if George Clooney and Brad Pitt and, I don't know, Justin Timberlake had all started wearing normal mustaches* 5 years ago, no one would be talking about ironic ones. But instead, after 20-odd years of no one wearing them (I'd say Tom Selleck was the last iconic mustache), they were revived, very self-consciously and ironically, by hipsters. And so now it's hard to wear one without seeming to be making a point of doing so (needless to say, lots of men have continued to wear them, just as lots of men still wear mullets and oversized belt buckles without wishing to express anything more than, I like these things).
Anyway, leblanc's 142 really is perfect.
* that is, width between Hitler and fu manchu, thickness between John Waters and soup strainer; I'm not trying to be narrow about what's a "normal" mustache, just saying that I mean a 'stache that doesn't scream, "Look at my distinctive facial hair!"
If you follow this logic, you'll never style yourself in any way that might be distinctive.
BTW, I don't think this is where the logic goes, unless you pick a tendentious definition of "distinctive" style. There's a lot of wiggle room between "Mr. Boring has been dressed by Dockers" and "Mr. Distinctive appears to be wearing an AMC Pacer for a hat."
This past winter, I wore this one very nice cardigan sweater in lieu of a sport jacket at a number of occasions (holiday parties, meetings, nice dinners). I think that was a distinctive choice, but I don't think that it was a choice that shouted out for attention, or that read as, "JRoth sure likes to be The Guy In The Cardigan."
I'd add that facial hair is more likely to seem like an attention-getting device since, duh, it's on the face. I can wear awesome, funky shoes, but unless they're a bright color, many other people (OK, men) will not even notice them. But you can't not notice facial hair, unless it's 100% mainstream.
I've had a mustache since 1978. You know, when the pace of change of fashions slowed down.
I'll just add here that IMO 190.1 doesn't conflict with 168.last.
I think there are lots of clothes that it would be hard, if not impossible, to wear ironically, because (almost) no one would be able to tell that you were trying to be amusing. Acid-wash jeans, maybe. But regular Levi's, in a medium blue? Maybe you wouldn't look super fashionable, and maybe some tiny group of extremely fashionable people who know you to be hyper-conscious of fashion would find it amusing, but you're really at diminishing returns.
(I should add that one can search the internet in vain for a picture of our local federal judge (the one who just took ss) sans stache. The fellow that hired me for my firm job, and was still there, running the office 18 years later, had a stache throughout. Judge Walton (DDC) has a nicely subtle stache. I never appeared before Judge Brieant, but I bet that wasn't irony.)
(Judge Brieant's obit. Mentions stache at end.)
I dedicate this classic country song to the OP.
Since this thread has slowed down let me take the opportunity for a shameless threadjack. I just put up a country music mix.
I don't normally contribute anything to Apo's mix threads because it just takes me too darn long to put a mix together but I did this one relatively quickly. I put it together with the explicit intention of sharing with the mineshaft, so I'm curious for feedback.
Speaking of fashion, what do you all make of this? Was the 90s the heyday of the skank? I don't remember it that way.*
*It's always the heyday of the skank as far as R. Halford is concerned, of course.
It's always the heyday of the skank as far as R. Halford is concerned, of course.
Meaning you or the real one?
199 -- I am as real as my mind.
198: I've been dreading the arrival of the retro-Nineties. But it's worse than I feared.
if George Clooney and Brad Pitt and, I don't know, Justin Timberlake had all started wearing normal mustaches* 5 years ago, no one would be talking about ironic ones.
George Clooney, Brad Pitt, Jude Law, Heath Ledger, Robert Downey Jr., James Franco, Jason Schwartzman, Ricky Martin, Ryan Gosling, Sean Penn. All of these people have had mustaches in the past 5 years. Because it is a thing these days, a style that people try out, and not necessarily because they are so full of irony.
That's retro-90s?
The shoes (bottom of the page) are awful. I give the gigantic chunky heels a year max.
Probably because cruising the Forever 21 catalog is something that wouldn't have occurred to you otherwise.
Don't forget Michael Jordan trying to bring back the Hitler-stache.
His agent gave me five bucks to deny that it ever happened if anyone brings it up.
In 203, I left out Justin Timberlake because he tends to do the stubbly mustache-beard combo, and Johnny Depp because he's usually got some goatee thing going on with his mustache.
It remains my position that "ironic facial hair" is one of these much talked-about things for which there is little real evidence.
Like evolution or the gold standard.
Well, if it was like evolution, there'd be solid evidence all around us that humanity's entire relationship to hairstyles is based on irony. More like ghost or Chupacabra sightings or Republican bipartisanship.
Maybe people haven't dug holes in the right places?
It's true that we haven't accounted for all the gaps in the fashion record.
I'm growing an ironic confucius beard, but it won't be done for twenty years and in the meantime I look like an earnest mongol.
215: Yes, well, we all know about you and your facial hair.
16
10: Huh. Using sex to manipulate your partner into giving you sex seems morally okay to me. ...
Regardless of the morality I think there is too much chance that this will backfire and Bill will end up worse off.
|| BS on Letterman tomorrow. http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/schweitzer-visits-nyc-to-appear-on-letterman/article_8c1823d8-8e61-11e1-a8c0-0019bb2963f4.html Always a hoot. |>
I'm disappointed I missed this thread when it was on-topic. Lack of kissing in my marriage was one of the factors that led to the affair I'm currently sort of having.
In my case, it's a combination of a partner who isn't into kissing to begin with, combined with general relationship stress that made kissing less common. It's been a bit surprising to find that I could be having what seems to be a perfectly defensible amount of sex and still feel unfulfilled because of the lack of kissing.
(Among other things. That's not the only issue.)
a perfectly defensible amount of sex
Can I borrow that, in case I ever write a novel and need a title?
That is quite a bid at bringing things back on topic, I gotta say!
My marriage is pretty bad, and when I've had affairs, kissing again has definitely been very nice.
219- Define "sort of having"?
222- I assume you mean kissing the affairee, not that having an affair somehow created more kissing in your marriage.
One more curious about 'sort of having'.
My google skills are failing me, wasn't there a politician who didn't really cheat but used the euphemism, "I have been unfaithful in my heart?"
Jimmy Carter in a Playboy interview.
Don't feel bad, yours had less information.
Anyway, he lost to Reagan because women were afraid of him staring at their chest resurgent communist revisionism.
Then clearly 219 should have been signed Jimmy C.
I read 219 as referring to a sort of Me and Mrs Jones situation.
When I read 219, it didn't seem that 'sort of' meant that the having was an internal state (eg JC) but that maybe the incidence of the affair had slackened to the point that 'having' might not really be an accurate description.
Only the President really knows, of course.
I thought 219 was probably more of a Technical Virginity-type situation. How mysterious!
I thought that 219 was a "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" thing.
Clearly, though, we must all kiss more to keep our relationships together.
All of us? Because, you know, I really regard most of you guys more as friends.
dogs and cats are not crazy about being kissed or licked by humans, my impression is that they think it is a little weird
When I was a kid I got a kick out of kissing the cat right on the mouth precisely because of the wtf is wrong with you look she would give me. (cats are great at that look)
This thread made me kinda sad. I know the adult thing to do is find a way to work through it, but when I imagine having a partner who doesn't want to kiss me, my emotional reaction is "deal-breaker! (*sob*)"
Probably related, I quite agree with 6.
We had a dog for the majority of our relationship but it died a couple years ago and we can't invest the time now to get a new one. He was quite into kissing.
|| I have accepted the offer of one short-lived but extremely adorable wolf cub. |>
Arctic predators united! Congratulations.
240: Congratulations, AWB!
This thou perceivest, which makes thy love more strong
To love that well which thou must leave ere long
Speaking of fashion, what do you all make of this? Was the 90s the heyday of the skank? I don't remember it that way.
I think that, other than the dresses section, very little of that stuff actually looks like the 90s to me, and I'm not just saying that because the 90s looked exactly like 2012.
On the one hand, my high school, in northern NJ in the late 80s, was the very epicenter of the skank. OTOH, it is true that I was saddened when, by the mid-90s, all the single ladies were wearing very tight tops, whereas the girls in my HS mostly wore very loose tops (or tight tops with loose overshirts). Born too early.
240: ¡Viva el lobito! Congrats, Bear.
Oh, and why is that store showing Wayfarers in their Totally 90s collection? They were so unfashionable by 1993 that even I noticed and stopped wearing them.
Congrats!
Maybe it should have been a gazelle, not a wolf cub:
I never nursed a dear gazelle,
To glad me with its soft black eye,
But when it came to know me well,
And love me, it was sure to die.
Thanks, dudes. Those who are my friends in the other world will know the identity when I announce it publicly later today. I want to make sure my acceptance is confirmed and the contract is settled before naming names.
I'm fascinated waiting to find out where a serious wolf-pack is with bad food.
Congratulations AWB. Are you going to celebrate by reviewing The Monk movie on line somewhere?
The food is so dreadful! That's probably only really true for vegetarians; everyone else at dinner had prime rib and it looked beautiful. So I'll cook a lot and everyone will be like so amazed. Where I am now, everyone cooks and is really good at it, and the restaurants are also fabulous, especially considering how rural we are. The wolf cub sort lives in a town a fifth as big as mine now.
255: I really want to see it, except that a student told me she watched it and it was very dumb. I will see it, of course.
I only just worked out where Hogwarts is (I probably knew at one point and forgot). And it's totally different from the picture I'd built up from your comments. I thought it was a rural campus near a small town, when it's actually an urban campus in a small city.
It's remarkable how much better the restaurant scene is now in cities like that one, and in that one in particular, than it was 15 years ago.
240: Good for you! Best wishes and all that stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Three_Wolf_Moon.jpg
Yay, AWB!
I'd also like to thank the Mineshaft for helping me to make the choice everyone else thinks I'm an idiot for making.
I'd also like to thank the Mineshaft for helping me to make the choice everyone else thinks I'm an idiot for making.
Hooray! Now should we link to the recent article by an incredibly famous member of your field saying, basically, "essear is an idiot"?
266: You went for the puppy as well?
Congrats essear!
Jimmy Carter in a Playboy interview.
I was just looking at that a couple months ago. Leaving aside the "lust in my heart" comment it's a fascinating example of how much the political culture has shifted in the last forty years.
First of all, Robert Scheer, the reporter who conducted the interview, notes that the whole story around the interview ended up being a little bit more awkward than it should have been because Carter agreed to the interview during the primaries when he wanted to reassure the liberal base that he wasn't too conservative and too Southern. They did a couple of sessions and, by the time it was published, the primaries were over and Carter was trying to appeal to the general electorate so he ended backing off from the interview.
But look at this following question and answer, it's so unscripted compared to anything you would see out of a campaign today:
Scheer: Every politician probably emphasizes different things to different audiences, but in your case there's been a common criticism that you seem to have several faces, that you try to be all things to all people. How do you respond to that?
Carter: I can't make myself believe these are contrivances and subterfuges that I've adopted to get votes. It may be, and I can't get myself to admit it, but what I want to do is let people know how I stand on the issues as honestly as I can.
It's obviously a political answer but what politician today would say, "perhaps I fooling myself, but I think I believe the positions that I'm taking"?
For the record, here is (part of) his answer about his religious beliefs:
I try not to commit a deliberate sin. I recognize that I'm going to do it anyhow, because I'm human and I'm tempted. And Christ set some almost impossible standards for us. Christ says, "I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman with lust in his heart has already committed adultery."
I've looked on a lot of women with lust. I've committed adultery in my heart many times. This is something God recognizes I will do -- and I have done it -- and God forgives me for it. But that doesn't mean that I condemn someone who not only looks on a woman with lust but who leaves his wife and shacks up with somebody out of wedlock.
Christ says, Don't consider yourself better than someone else because one guy screws a whole bunch of women while the other guy is loyal to his wife. The guy who's loyal to his wife ought not to be condescending or proud because of the relative degree of sinfulness. One thing that Pat Tillich said was that religion is a search for the truth about man's existence and his relationship with God and his fellow man; and that once you stop searching and think you've got it made -- at that point you lose your religion. Constant reassessment, searching in one's heart -- it gives me a feeling of confidence.
You can see what Carter was trying to say there, but you can also see why it struck people as odd.
Also, I would like to hear more lurid details from Clinton and Lincoln because I'm nosy like that.
I am very proud of us for helping essear make a stupid decision!
Is there someone we can now convince to divorce/not divorce?
273,274: I thought I was going to have to be the first to suggest.
But I'm interested because I'm a feminist.
Only if they describe their divorce/non-divorce options via elaborate metaphors, preferably involving pineapples.
275.1: Yes, AWB and essear might pause* to consider what course of action would provide more red meat for the blog.
*Not now while they're basking in the glow, but six months from now.
276: Halford and the paleo people agree.
273- Let's make it clear that this is the second Clintonesque @ 219 (who 231 proposed calling Carter) not the original ATM asker, since Hillary might read this and we need to be clear there is no Monica.
I would suggest that you differentiate yourself from the original ATM asker by posting as George Clinton. Or Bootsy Collins. I'm not fussy.
Yay puppies. And shouldn't ogged be commenting on a puppies and carnal relations thread?
282 is the original ATM asker. 219 is George (or Jimmy).
285: Whoops, I had that crossed up. Yes, no Monica involved in the original ATM, or in any followup comments from the original ATM asker.
I kind of feel like an ass now. I've disappointed nice people! To stay with egotistical people! Oh well.
Apologies to Mr Clinton for intruding on his thread. Kissing is nice. I have no useful thoughts on the problem.
To stay with egotistical people the Boston unfoggedetariat!
Is there someone we can now convince to divorce/not divorce?
We should focus on convincing people to divorce.
I kind of feel like an ass now. I've disappointed nice people! To stay with egotistical people! Oh well.
Naaahh. I mean, there may well be egotistical people at your new location. I admit that as a possibility. But there will also be nice people! I bet!
My advisor's reply to my message telling him what I decided. I'm totally going to get an "I told you so" in a few years. (Overactive Googleproofing, I know.)
I'm glad that you dec/ded to do what you feel is the best for you, and not ba/sed on others adv/ce.
That's an amazing line.
Do I understand right that "staying" is literally true?
292: And if he only knew the rest of the story.
Yes, staying in the same place, but with more work to do.
Nice. Not moving is really key. A lot of the argument for taking a clearly permanent job now is that it means you don't have to move an extra time. But now if you leave in 5 years it won't actually mean you've moved an extra time!
Yes, staying in the same place, but with more work to do.
But hopefully less travel . . .
I say, your reported travel scheduled this last year is not something that I ever voluntarily subject myself to.
I'll probably move within Camberville, but that won't be a huge hassle. Not a move-move.
Yes, staying in the same place, but with more work to do.
I have to question the wisdom of this decision.
Wow, how did I miss that this thread took off?
Congratulations to AWB and Essear!
Lincoln needs to provide more details.
Lincoln and George Clinton aren't going to provide details. We should just make them up.
I bet they are having affairs with each other. In the postcoital glow they smoke cigarettes and play "marry, fuck, kill" with the mineshaft as source material.
Maybe Lincoln and George Clinton are seeing each other on the downlow.
Honestly, togolosh. Why you gotta be like that?
There's some phrase, "Spay, neuter, or ____ " which I can't remember what the third is, but I always think Fuck/Marry/Kill when I see it.
This thread should definitely be used for commenters to reveal the sordid details of their extramarital affairs. That can't possibly go wrong.
Please list the income and SAT scores of everyone you are illicitly sleeping with.
Also the most they've ever spent on jeans.
With that sordid stuff out of the way we can get on to means of deception and sexual practices.
With that sordid stuff out of the way we can get on to means of deception and sexual practices.
Expressed entirely in coy metaphors.
Are you suggesting that presidentiality is an imperfect means of concealment?
Oh, I should say -- the original ATM came in from unfoggedanon@gmail.com. President Clinton set up a brand new anonymous email account for it. If anyone else wants to use it for superanonymous ATM communications, he said the password is 'Who wants to sex Mutombo?'
Are you suggesting that presidentiality is an imperfect means of concealment?
It serves as one level of security. The coy metaphors are a second level.
[H]e said the password is 'Who wants to sex Mutombo?'
He lied.
I had a really beautiful metaphor per 278 involving peaches and oral allergy. But the interwebs ate it so now you don't get to enjoy it.
Which, as Randall Munro has taught us (can't be arsed to find the link) would be much more secure than hKf9o3!x if it wasn't already out there.
Not that I had a real purpose in trying to log in. I was just being nosy.
313: So I pulled the full pineapple on my wife, and we ended up in a sleazy motel in the west end where the owl bought lunch for the pussycat and I mean big time.
What he actually said was "Pass phrase is the standard meet up greeting, with correct capitalization, spacing, and final punctuation." Maybe I misspelled Mutombo?
318: there was a reasonably convincing debunking of that xkcd (depends on the level of abstraction at which you calculate the entropy) which I in turn can't be arsed to find.
"Eggplant" was already ahead in this game even before he tried applying his mad haxxor skillz.
322: if you find it you should share it, though.
standard meet up greeting, with correct capitalization, spacing, and final punctuation.
Hello. (?)
How do you spell looking nervously around trying to identify people who look as if they're from the Internet? (Or, in ajay's case, sitting quietly absorbed in a book. Ajay is terrible at looking like he's trying to find strangers in a bar.)
Staying in an unhappy marriage due to offspring. It's a common story, and my response is also. Kissing is lovely, requires mutual affection.
Shit, spelled Mutombo wrong, it's hard to type a long phrase with just dots echoing. Fixed now, except LB wasn't supposed to post the actual password on the public internet, just the hint.
Anyway, obviously if a site admin tracked the IP addresses of follow-up comments and matched those up with prior pseudonymous comments, yes they could figure out who this is. But that's effort to intentionally identify someone trying to be anonymous, vs. just telling them by sending from a known account.
The password for your Google account - unfoggedanon@gmail.com - was recently changed. If you made this change, you don't need to do anything more.
Oh, heh. The only reason I checked the account was that I thought by "the original ATM" LB meant the first ever, and I was curious what that was (but not curious enough to search the archives).
Abe, I'm awfully sorry. That sounds like a horrible, grinding experience. Or rather, not grinding. Or not in the good way, I mean.
I checked unfoggedanon's 3 google+ account notifications, too! (As you might have guessed, it was all google spam.)
The hivemind has a shared email account now? Wow. We can all, like, leave secret messages for each other there.
328: Whoops. I'll edit when I get home.
Anonymous secret messages! Like, "I like this person do you think she likes me?" And that could lead to high school style makeout sessions and everyone will be happy.
Anonymous secret messages! Like, "I like this person do you think she likes me?" And that could lead to high school style makeout sessions and everyone will be happy.
So we've gone from describing extramarital affairs to arranging them?
I don't know that the blog has a policy, generally, on extramarital affairs, but while I'll listen endlessly to people talking about their marital problems, I would prefer not to be instrumental in engendering too many of them. IYSWIM.
We're getting closer and closer to just saying fuck it and having a big orgy, aren't we.
In a swimming pool, apparently.
I don't know that the blog has a policy, generally, on extramarital affairs
It's a symptom of the inexorable aging of the 'tariat. 10 years ago almost nobody was married. Now look.
340: Well, Unfoggeddecagon is next year. Until then, I'm not quite sure how we're supposed to work an orgy with the materials at hand.
with the materials at hand.
...must try and think....
If you sign in to the unfoggedanon Gmail account and look at the chat box, there's a username there that shows LB's real-life surname. I'm not sure if the information in this thread is making that undesirably public or not.
Or maybe it wasn't until I pointed it out, when I could have gone through less public channels. Oops.
Dammit. I hate gmail -- that shouldn't have happened.
It's worse than that. Your full name is offered as a potential member of a circle.
Seriously, that's fucked up. I emailed with Unfoggedanon from my gmail account, but using the lizardbreath@unfogged.com address. Wouldn't you think that would have tipped gmail off to the idea that I didn't intend to give out my realname gmail address?
I changed the password on the Unfoggedanon account. If I can figure out how to clean my name off it, I'll post the password again.
Clearly the password on the gmail account should be changed. It's really not good for it to be *this* public.
Yay AWB, yay essear.
Is there someone we can now convince to divorce/not divorce?
Too late! But without getting into too much detail, let's just say that the return to the kissing life is pretty goddamn sweet.
Good luck, Abe.
This is all pretty minor, privacy-wise; anyone who cared who I was could figure it out and there wouldn't be any important repercussions for me. But honestly, gmail -- what part of "Oh, good, your service allows me to send and receive emails from an alternate email address, so I don't have to log into another service to send and receive emails from an address that doesn't have my real name on it," implies "Give my real name to everyone I email though this account, regardless of the email address I'm using."
Was there ever a completely anonymous, not "pick a new pseud" but "nobody use a name at all" thread? I'm not saying there should be. We had something equivalent to that in an English class Freshman year of college and it was not pretty.
Here's the text from Gmail's account help:
Alternate email addresses and other Google products
Before adding alternate email addresses to your account, make sure you read the following information to understand how they work across different products.
Alternate email addresses and Google Docs, Sites, and Calendar
When your contacts share content with your alternate email address via Google Docs or Google Sites, your primary email address will still be displayed. For example, when someone shares a document with an alternate email address that is associated with a Gmail address, the Gmail username will appear instead of the alternate email address.
In Calendar, alternate addresses now behave differently. When someone sends a Google Calendar invitation to your alternate account, the primary email address on your Google Account remains hidden, but you're notified of the event at your alternate email inbox.
Alternate email addresses and Google Profiles
If you have a Google profile, at the top of your Edit profile page, you'll see the domains of all your verified email addresses associated with your account. Select the domains you'd like to display on your profile (keep in mind that we won't display your full email addresses), and save your changes.
When people who know you visit your profile and see, for example, your school's domain name, they'll know your profile was created by you.
Learn more about how connecting other email addresses to your account can help you and your friends find each other on Google.
I do not see this as saying "If you email someone from an alternate email address, we will tell them your primary email address and the name associated with it." Jesus. Again, not a personal security problem, but a fucking pissoff.
In a fit of pique, I deleted the unfoggedanon@gmail account, because there wasn't any other obvious way to clean my contact information off it. That may have been a jerky thing to do -- sorry, WJC.
Yeah, it sucks that Gmail does that. I somehow thought Google was better at this sort of thing than Facebook, though I haven't paid too much attention.
Man, do I feel like a chump. I really am slack about emailing people from my realname email account, so half the time when someone emails lizardbreath@unfogged.com I email back from my realname without worrying about it too much -- I'm barely anonymous. But I'm finding the fact that even when I didn't do that, gmail still put out my real name without in any way that I can see making it obvious that that was going to happen enraging.
I'm generally fairly ready to blame myself for not reading the fine print, but I've been poking through Gmail's online documentation, and I'm really not seeing what I missed here. If someone would point me to the page that shows that I should have known how that would work, I'd actually be happier and less pissed off.
Sigh. Got a new computer today for work and accidentally went to a fake Firefox site and gave it my phone number. All my assets are probably halfway to Lagos by now.
P.S. There are way too fucking many threads for me to follow right now. Whatever happened to PACING?!?
Whatever happened to PACING?!?
Wrong thread.
P.P.S. As usual, I do not like the new Windows GUI. Bring back the command line, I say!
I somehow thought Google was better at this sort of thing than Facebook, though I haven't paid too much attention.
I've seen no evidence that this is the case. If anything, they're worse. Remember the Buzz debacle?
Why would Firefox get your phone number at all?
Because it reads your thoughts, Moby. But only in Russian.
God, 311 is good.
I think I've noted this before, but it's relevant: I'm pleased to report that my infidelity to BOGF has been thoroughly confirmed as a BOGF-specific phenomenon, and I've been almost Jimmy Carter-faithful to AB and HS GF.
Sorry, laydeez.
I cheated a lot in several through age 22 or so.. It was because I was pathologically unable to end relationships, much like the recent ATM, and cheating served several purposes.
Several relationships, that should read.
God, 311 is good.
You're all mixed up.
Is there nothing worse than trying to do italics on an iPad?
If you want to end a relationship without directly saying so, wouldn't being a huge asshole be much easier than cheating?
LIKE BEING CHEATED ON BY YOUR GF WHO WON'T JUST END IT ALREADY.
wouldn't being a huge asshole be much easier than cheating?
But cheating lets you be an asshole and get some on the side. Win-win!
If you want to end a relationship without directly saying so, wouldn't being a huge asshole be much easier than cheating?
Why choose?
373: that actually takes a bit of maturity. Good girls don't hurt other people's feelings, see.
I personally can't even begin to judge negatively cheating in Abe Lincoln's situation (affirmatively unhappy marriage being kept together for sake of kids alone), but, as a divorced Dad, I challenge the premise that it's a good idea to keep together the unhappy marriage for the sake of the kids. Divorce does suck, a lot, but it's not that hard to co-parent and I'm dubious of benefits to the children from sticking it out in a super unhappy marriage that's gotten to the point where cheating feels like the only way out. If you're proactive about it you can make the divorce much more smooth, and thus much easier on the kids.
Again, this is just my perspective -- everyone is different and I really can't presume to know or judge what's going on. But the shame of getting divorced is a lot easier to deal with than the horror of being stuck in an unhappy marriage forever.
I am not just trying to drum up business for Will, I swear.
You're all mixed up.
Don't know what to do.
381: Go get an epipen. P-Nut allergies are no time for indecisiveness.
As another divorced dad, I endorse 379. Of course, I had a relatively amicable divorce and have 50/50 custody.
We're getting closer and closer to just saying fuck it and having a big orgy, aren't we.
Sex grottoes!
The UnfoggeDecadeCon house definitely needs to have at least one sex grotto.
As another divorced dad, I endorse 379 sex grottoes.
There should also be a kissing grotto.
Maybe a series of grottoes for activities ranging in intensity from kissing to sex (and beyond!), sort of like the Roman baths.
I think kissing is supposed to happen in booths, as linked from the OP.
Also, the budget on this thing is limited, unless zombie CB DeMille shows up and wants to play. You want a rubdown with olive oil and a good scraping with a strigil, you need to talk someone into putting on the toga yourself.
It wouldn't have to be literally like the Roman baths.
388: "Wait. What? You want me to do what with that strigil?!"
That stings. Like that fermented fermented goddamn fish paste.
We're supposed to provide a metaphorical sex grotto now? Man, teo, back when you were a virgin you weren't so demanding.
What's so hard about a metaphorical sex grotto? It's certainly cheaper than the real kind.
What I meant, however, was a series of real grottoes devoted to various amorous activities of different intensities, analogous to the series of pools of water at different temperatures found at the Roman baths. I now have a renewed appreciation for the importance of the analogy ban.
What's so hard about a metaphorical sex grotto?
"What" isn't the problem.
I suggested a house in Palm Springs with multiple sex grottos, but you all were like "oh maybe we should do this in some faculty home in Pittsburgh."
Not quite Pittsburgh, but close enough.
The essential concept of the grotto, however, transcends any single time, place, or artistic style. As a "metaphor of the cosmos," the grotto universally represents birth, sexuality, and death--themes intimately connected to the highly feminized rococo and, as we will suggest, to the Philadelphia high chest itself.
As a non-divorced dad who has stayed together (so far) in part because of the mutual parenting responsibility, I've got a slightly different perspective than 379. But then, I felt my marriage was pretty good outside of the sexual stuff, so that makes a big difference, too.
The parenting stuff was specific to our son - I was just pretty clear that there were times when he needed me specifically and times when he needed his mom, and those times didn't fit very well into a fixed schedule, no matter what co-parenting schedule we might have been able to work out, even with a lot of cooperation. Also didn't want to add to his school difficulties beyond what he was facing already. Not judging anyone else's situation here.
One thing I've discovered since he's moved out to college is how much I enjoy just hanging out with my wife. Not much progress on the sexual front, and there may never be, but we do enjoy each other's company. Not sure if that's sufficient to stay together, but I'm not in a rush to leave right now.
Sympathies for everyone stuck in these situations, including the OP.
379. I can manage either outcome. I do not want to put my kid through a custody fight, and don't want to risk my wife's getting half-custody, as she has real anger management problems. Her spite and rage are better directed at me than a minor. This way, there's a smooth surface to life, and many days are genuinely OK. I'm giving my kid a stable childhood, my best choice this month. Not fooling around now, fwiw.
Hotels have cleaning people. Who restocks the grotto's surfaces?
Who restocks the grotto's surfaces?
Catfish.
I'm the weirdly evasive president from 219, who doesn't check back here often enough, and who isn't entirely sure what he meant by "sort of having" except maybe to imply that it's somewhat intermittent.
EDGuy seems to have a much better attitude about these sorts of things than I do. Obviously.
OT again: Dudes, my placement officer just mildly chastised me for announcing my acceptance of an offer on FB. Did I do something wrong? Last time I accepted a job, I waited until the contract was signed, received, and acknowledged before announcing and everyone said I was way too careful. They've already announced it to their department and I've responded to several congratulations emails. Am I an asshole?
407.last. Not as far as I can tell.
It's a faculty member at my grad school whose job is to help us through the process and monitor everyone's progress, make sure that if someone asks our school to send them someone who does X that a really good X person applies, organizes mock interviews, etc. I didn't use the person who did it last year, but this year, this person really helped me talk through some issues, got me a good interview, etc. He isn't on FB, however, which makes me think he doesn't realize how one might use it to communicate meaningful with people in one's field and one's loved ones, for example. Apparently I was ratted out by my grad school's department assistant, who hates me.
407: Maybe you're supposed to remain circumspect in the public arena.
Huh. I guess I wouldn't worry about it?
I haven't decided when or if I should FB-announce my decision.
I don't know what the prevailing etiquette for these things is. Apparently it was public enough, though, that the placement officer heard about it in fairly short order. Other people here know more about whether the placement officer is wrong or right to give you grief, according to whatever the etiquette is.
Knowing nothing at all about the academic world, I'd guess that the person chastising you saw the recent news story about the young journalism grad who was fired before his first day of work, because he whimsically decided to announce his own hire through a mock press release posted to his personal blog (or maybe Tumblr, I can't remember). Tal about an overreaction.
The thing I just thought of is that it would not be wise to announce it because they haven't sent rejection letters out yet. I've hidden it just in case that might be a concern for someone. I only share updates with friends, but those friends include a ton of faculty and grad students in my field.
I mean, I can't see how it's my responsibility to protect others from finding out that I've been offered and accepted a job, or what the appropriate amount of time one is supposed to wait is, but none of my rather conservative colleagues today told me to take it down. They just came by and hugged me.
418: Any of them tell you to have the office at your new job checked for ghosts?
Congratulations, BTW.
I could see some argument for being circumspect, because you could still accept other jobs starting after a year. And people knowing you were "off the market" might make them not realize that you're available after a year. But I wouldn't worry about it.
Congratulations!!!
You should defriend your grad school department assistant.
Indeed, congratulations, to AWB and essear both.
I do generally vote for modesty and circumspection in these matters, but that may just be me. I don't necessarily understand the Facebooking ways.
You should defriend your grad school department assistant.
Totes.
432.2 is exactly correct.
It's the job-offerer's responsibility to tell you if they need discretion or if they want you to wait for a public announcement. If they just said "we are planning to send out an announcement" but didn't say "please wait until we do before announcing it widely" then it's on them.
Congratulations, bad decision-makers!*
*I'm not in the "go with the safe choice" camp, myself.
Or, in ajay's case, sitting quietly absorbed in a book. Ajay is terrible at looking like he's trying to find strangers in a bar.
Sitting reading a book is all you need to do to meet strangers in a bar in my home country. It demonstrates your desirability on grounds of a) literacy b) disposable income and c) current sobriety. Tick those three boxes and you're in the top 5%, laydeez lassiez.
Ajay is entirely correct provided he arrived first.
Also the book was about Shackleton. In all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world it had to be him or me.
I haven't decided when or if I should FB-announce my decision.
You could just nonchalantly add it to the employment section on your profile.
As a divorced mom, I endorse 379 and also sympathize with Abe. Tough spot to be in, for sure. I would add (and no, Will did not put me up to this) that before deciding to stay together based on the custody arrangements you are afraid a divorce will bring, it can't hurt to consult a family lawyer who can tell you what is realistic to expect.
Which book about Shackleton is what I forgot to ask at the time.
they haven't sent rejection letters out yet
Congratulations!
Given how long rejections can take (and that lots of places don't even bother - even for those they have had in for visits), I think you have no obligation to hide your news. And I think FB announcements are entirely appropriate for good job news and impending moves. A friend of mine just announced a great postdoc she won in the town where here husband (and baby daddy) started his TT gig last year. I was thrilled to find out and happy to go congratulate her as were a bazillion other friends.
I don't understand why the placement officer presumes to speak for Wolf University about how they want things announced or not announced. Did WU complain to your PO?
Have I misunderstood where the PO works?
407
OT again: Dudes, my placement officer just mildly chastised me for announcing my acceptance of an offer on FB. Did I do something wrong?
If he's mildly chastising you for something he's not familiar with, then mildly ignore it. I mean, be polite about ignoring it, and I can imagine an argument for letting people at your current job know in person rather than through FB, but this sounds more confusing than worrying.
Kids are smart. They know what is going on.
Staying together unhappily is crazy.
Congratulations #n to AWB and essear. To 423: my guess would be that she's not friends with the admin herself, but with the department (or such), and so the admin can see her profile from an official dept account. If that's not true, though, of course she should defriend her!
419: Actually, while I was there, there was an AMAZING lecture about bourgeois white lady spiritualism, which everyone was dissecting from a decidedly exterior position. I felt right at home. "Native American exorcist," they assured me, is most definitely racist.
429 sounds like a good idea, once everything is officially official.
435: I dunno about staying together for the kids. My parents did (I'm fairly sure, this is one of the many topics we don't talk openly about), and while I'm sure they were significantly worse off, I think we might have been better off. Netting it all out, as an outsider, I would have advised them either to get divorced 25 years before they eventually split, or preferably to run screaming in opposite directions when they met each other. Kids do manage just fine with divorced parents.
From our point of view as the kids, though, it was stabler, and we saw more of both of them -- I think it's possible that we were happier with them together. This is contingent on the bad marriage being quietly bad, rather than seriously high conflict, of course. And even if we were a little happier, I'm pretty sure that the difference wasn't enough to be worth it. (And of course there's the modeling bad relationships thing; not sure how that plays out.)
There's always the possibility that parents in a bad relationship could split, find new partners, and expose the kids to two bad marriages instead of just one.
I have a theory that only concurrent marriages count for this.
I wonder if the rage issue Lincoln mentioned might be a symptom of the badness of the marriage, and would be mitigated by separation. It's a rough spot to be in sucking up horribleness and would be good to GTFO if it could be done without serious harm to the kid.
Mmm -- it can be confusing to figure out whether someone is a scarily bad parent, or just a scarily bad spouse. I'm sure Lincoln's thought about this, but yeah, it does seem possible that Mary Todd would be much saner and a better parent if she were also out of the bad marriage.
I didn't do badly enough on the face recognition test that I could ever claim to have as bad a problem with it as it feels like I have but the night of that meetup there was someone who I thought looked exactly like ajay on my A train and I kept looking at him like "did I just meet you a few hours ago?" only I couldn't imagine why ajay would be headed to my neighborhood unless reading about Shackleton had inspired him to explore geographical extremes.
AJAY IS EVERYWHERE.
was stabler, and we saw more of both of them
Courts are moving more and more toward 50/50 custody for this reason.
I think issues surrounding divorce and children are really hard for people not to map their own experiences on to. As Apo would say, no one has any idea what's going on inside someone else's marriage. Custody is a huge huge mess, and it doesn't seem that implausible that there are types of bad marriages that aren't as bad as dealing with custody messes. People's decisions are based on their own situations and not judgements on other people's decisions in other situations.
Also, there are probably personality types that are better at dealing with one type of situation than the other.
Well, often, people's decisions are based on what their friends and family tell them will happen.
That is why it is important to talk with a professional.
People think they know what is going to happen bc some friend gave them legal advice based on the friend's situation.
That is why it is important to talk with a professional.
People are always telling me to get a professional, but I maintain that duct tape works just fine.
451: the wound should close up on its own in a month or two anyhow.
On the plus side, I didn't need to report polydactylism in the other thread.
Which book about Shackleton is what I forgot to ask at the time.
"South". Both about and by Shackleton.
445: "We took the A train, we knew we took it; things have come out against us, and therefore we have no cause for complaint, but bow to the will of Providence, determined still to do our best to the last."
For God's sake look after our return tickets.
Ah, thanks, my impression was that it was by Shackleton. Now the only question remaining is which reading list is it to go on?
"Great God! this is an awful place and terrible enough for us to have laboured to it without the reward of priority. Well, it is something to have got here."
Well, it is something to have got here
Rockaway Beach?
You should read it alongside a short story by Orson Scott Card, an LP by Cold Chisels, and a novel by Celine.
"And so farewell, dear Queens -- we won't meet again."
(I've certainly told this before, but) at a party I was introduced to a woman (classicist!) who had apparently just made a film about Shackleton. I told her, Oh! How interesting! I don't really know that much about him, but you know how sometimes books will come out and, though you know you'll never actually *read* the book, you read all of the reviews *of* that book? Yeah, well, that's what I did with this book that came out about Shackleton a while ago. You've read it, I guess?
"I wrote it."
The only possible response to that is to don a false beard and woolly hat and riposte "I am Ernest Shackleton. You know nothing of my work."
Well, often, people's decisions are based on what their friends and family tell them will happen.
This. I stayed married longer than I should have out of fear that UNG could take Rory away from me because he declared himself the "primary parent" based on my being employed full-time for almost the entirety or Rory's life and him being not-so-much employed for most of it. Turns out this was a really ridiculous threat/fear. But you can see where one might worry about ceding custody of her beloved child to a man prone to fits of rage-driven nudity.
Either that or blurt out "by all accounts it was shite" and then proceed to throw up all over her but it doesn't sound like that kind of party.
a man prone to fits of rage-driven nudity
Wait. What?
But you can see where one might worry about ceding custody of her beloved child to a man prone to fits of rage-driven nudity.
But for this being about you, this is my favorite thing that I have read this week.
466: RTFA? Actually I think it was only in TFA of my now long-since-defunct-and-deleted blog. And probably somewhere on Standpipe's.
I think all you ever said about it here was to refer to him as Ugly Naked Guy.
467: "But for" s/b "Because of." It's funny shit, especially at this point.
I didn't know what UNG stood for until now.
He stands for the right to rage nakedly, apparently.
I thought it was just a Friends thing.
Man. Now I sort of feel like I should retell the story.
Or, rather, that someone who is funny should.
I'm often nude, and I occasionally feel rage. I may even have raged while nude. But I feel quite certain that I have never been driven to nudity by rage.
Maybe if my underwear was really chafing.
Let's tell the story. "I'm so mad that my pants are coming off!"
Man. Now I sort of feel like I should retell the story.
I'm all ears. Naked ears.
Obviously, Bruce Banner might get naked when he rages otherwise he'd never be able to afford clothes.
480: "You wouldn't like me when I'm naked."
I understand why turning into the Hulk rips his pants, but what turns them purple?
The clear pants are too tight for the Hulkmember.
I didn't know what UNG stood for until now.
Uracil N-glycosylase.
but what turns them purple?
Withholding sex until somebody kisses him.
484: I thought quoting Tolkien was banned.
I just thought he walked around naked a lot (which is fine) and sometimes became rageful, and also didn't look so great naked, especially when purple-faced with rage.
So, once upon a time I was a married woman, a petition for dissolution then pending. One night, with my sweet little girl tucked into her bed, I settled in to my own for much deserved rest. Suddenly, I hear the sound of the shower down the hall followed by rock and roll music at an unseemly volume. I knock at the bathroom door. No response. I knock again, "Hey, can you turn that down a bit?" Some mumbled response that I take to be agreeable, so I head back to bed. A minute or so later, the volume not only fails to decrease but instead shoots up, blaring. I just want to sleep. (You wouldn't like me when I'm sleep deprived...) I knock at the door again. Nothing. So I open the door just enough to grab the cellphone off the sink, shut it off, and throw it on his bed in the room across the hall.
A few minutes later, the shower stops. A few more minutes after that, the soon-to-be-ex strides into my room bare-ass naked ready to rumble about me touching his phone without permission. I am quite certain he thought standing there without a stitch of clothing was intimidating or maybe would flaunt what I just did not get to have anymore. And though I was intimidated more often than not, the sight of his naked, utterly unappealing body in my doorway mostly just made me want to giggle. But I didn't.
And then I lived relatively happily ever after.
That was less funny than I'd hoped. I was hoping that he deliberately disrobed when he got mad, which would be awesome.
Yeah, I feel like I told it funnier at the time.
It is the source of his pseud, though. Because my reaction was, wow, this guy is kind of hideous.
That's still sort of strange. I mean, he must have had a towel handy.
He had taken the time to dry off after showering but before dropping by to visit my room, so, yeah, he had a towel handy. Which suggests it was a considered choice. Which amused me, anyway.
Maybe the towel was too floral for rage.
"You don't rage at me wearing flowers, anymore."
435
Staying together unhappily is crazy.
Maybe but sometimes it is best for the kids.
496, defend yourself against 379 and 439.
And 488 while you're at it. Not comment 488 so much as the combatant described within.
Does anyone know anyone who wished their parents had stuck it out? I mean, I can see scorched-earth divorces that would be less preferable than stifled husks of parents sleepwalking into senescence. But that's a mark against scorched-earth divorces.
497
Does anyone know anyone who wished their parents had stuck it out? ...
You miss LB in 439:
I dunno about staying together for the kids. My parents did (I'm fairly sure, this is one of the many topics we don't talk openly about), and while I'm sure they were significantly worse off, I think we might have been better off. ...
I think my parents would have been better off getting divorced. I have no idea whether we kids would have been better off, but probably so if there'd been a conscientious, relatively amicable break up. (Which, you know, should have come with a pony as well.)
497: I stuck it out for some years so the kids could finish their schooling and not feel pressure to take care of their mother. I hated every minute of it but it added, in my mind at least, a few points to the other side of the lying & cheating column.
My misread of 439 resulted in misplaced belligerence in 497.1. 379, battle 439! You can do it, you have not been eating potatoes.
As the happily second-married son of a happily second-married father, I'm strongly pro-divorce.
My folks' divorce was fractious, but not catastrophic. I got the attic in my dad's new house, and he took me down to Army surplus to buy a parachute to cover the exposed insulation. When the streetlight lit up the room through the parachute, immediate virginitybane.
502: I don't have a general objection to divorce. I do to the lying and other bullshit that so many people, myself included, rationalize to excuse being a coward and hiding from the anticipated emotional storms. That's the part that I regret and not who I want to see in the mirror.
the parachute, immediate virginitybane
Rather unfair to blame the parachute. Couldn't your kissing be to blame?
When you go naked in your own home,
Rage, rage against the moving of your phone.
Wouldn't a virginitybane be, according to the usual valuation of these things, good?
I believe that was k-sky's point. Parents' divorce -> attic bedroom -> parachute -> virginitybane -> profit!
Does anyone know anyone who wished their parents had stuck it out?
Ugh, no, and mine did. Still do. They talk about how happy their marriage is, but they have nothing in common and, in speaking to each of them alone, one gets the sense that they have no understanding of what the other thinks the relationship is about. They can't understand why I have no desire to enter a long-term relationship, since I have this example of a happy and long-lasting marriage right in front of me, and I think, Jesus Christ, if I spent 37 years convincing myself that I really really like someone whose every concrete quality drives me insane, I'd lose it.
I didn't know the origin story of UNG's pseud. That's fantastic, Di.
"Virginitybane" suggests that the first time was during or after LARPing.
one gets the sense that they have no understanding of what the other thinks the relationship is about.
As near as I can tell, that's a necessary but not sufficient condition for any successful human interaction.
511: Define "successful."
Or, to the extent 511 is true, I'm with AWB in not seeing the incentive to enter into a long-term relationship.
Define "successful."
Nobody calls the cops, no violence, and nobody asks about "feelings".
508: The flip side is that 37 years with someone I was convinced really, really liked me seems pretty nice.
I also didn't know the full story behind UNG's name. That's hilarious.
Heather Havrileski, in a review of the Starz show Sparticus had a great description of a scene where one of the senior gladiators berates our hero while naked. Havrileski said his penis was bobbing along like a side-kick, saying "Yeah, what he said! You tell 'em!"
Maybe you should understand what your kids think (you've been there before), but they shouldn't (can't in the early years) understand what you think.
The really tough thing about divorce/separation with kids is that you have to maintain two households which can do a number on economic stability. But, I have no experience of divorce from inside a marriage, so I don't presume to judge.
Inside of a marriage it's too dark to judge.
507 is correct. If my parents were still married, I would still be a virgin.
Hmm. My parents stayed together, and my lack of success with the opposite sex borders on legendary. Rory, on the other hand, seems to be developing into quite the little heartbreaker. You're welcome, Rory.
My parents stayed together, and my lack of success with the opposite sex borders on legendary.
Yeah, I don't think this follows . My parents had an extremely strong and happy marriage, to an extent that people in other happily married couples of their own age even remarked on it.
My own love life, after the end of a LTR about ten years ago, went from a few years of brief episodes to non-existent.
I'm still not sorry that I turned down the friend who asked me out (since married & with a small child). It's not just that I wasn't at all physically attracted but he has certain personality traits which would irritate the hell out of me if I were in his company for extended periods of time.
