Glad to see that the northeast can keep a certain name for boys in circulation.
It's kind of jarring to learn that Mason is such a popular name.
Texas gets José! The Utah names are barely different from everyone else!
What's up with the popularity of Logan? Lots of fans of X-Men and/or '70s sci-fi?
What's with Vermont and boys? Logan? It's not a bad name, but the most common name in the state?
Glad to see my kid's name is still safely outside the top 200.
5: There isn't a big airport in Vermont so people often fly out of Boston and if even half of the babies conceived in Logan International are named after the place, you get high proportion for a small state.
"it took a list of six names to cover half of the population of children born in England in 1800 (U.S. Social Security Administration records don't begin until 1880). By 1950 in the United States, that number was up to 79. Today, it takes 546 names to cover half of the population of U.S. babies ..."
"Baby name regret" is on the rise
The girl's list seemed about right, and is helped in uniformity by Isabella and Sophia being plausibly hispanic names. I'd have expected more Henrys, Joses, and (apologies) Olivers on the boys list, however.
10: You could just call here Gretta. That's not so bad.
We've talked about this before, but the trends still amuse me. I know a lot of little Olivers whose mothers were definitely picking something traditional-but-unique.
9: Ha! That is wherethis list -- with the name of every baby you know, but not the names of the babies on the SSA list -- comes in. Seriously -- ever baby you know.
Why are there so many boys named "Jayden?"
I'm relieved that a Google search of the name shows that, though my first response to the name may indicate that I am a depraved pervert, I am at least am a depraved pervert with plenty of company.
definitely picking something traditional-but-unique.
What I thought I was doing, and yet the name appears as a top fiver for one of the states.
Also, as I was typing the above, I got a birth announcement for a boy named "Henry."
I got sort of hit with that on both mine -- aiming not exactly for unique, but for good solid ordinary unfashionable name that'd be fairly rare. And while neither of them are very very popular (Sally's not in the top 100 for her year in NY or the decade nationally, Newt is but pretty far down), they're both much commoner than I thought they'd be. There's something in the name-zeitgeist that speaks to your unconscious when you're going to have a kid.
Glad to see my kid's name is still safely outside the top 200.
Because you named her Large Hadron Collider?
What's up with the popularity of Logan? Lots of fans of X-Men and/or '70s sci-fi?
Veronica Mars, obviously.
Hmmm that list in 13 clearly says something important about me.
14.1: Name of the red ranger in Samurai Power Rangers, but that might be an effect, not a cause.
You were the red Samurai Power Ranger?!!! Cool!
20: Did you know that the woman who plays Jules in Cabin in the Woods was the Yellow Power Ranger in the Jungle Fury iteration of the show?
Knowing this changes the way I look at several scenes in Cabin in the Woods.
8: That's consistent with other data I found when we previously had this discussion. Nothing today comes close on a percentage basis to Susan, Mary, John, David and Michael in the 50s.
I wanted to name O Cosimo Mylastname, which, as a non-lurker pointed out while supporting me in email, sounds like a CNN International correspondent.
As I've said before, if I ever have a boy and can ignore the wishes of the boy's mother I'm going with "Roosevelt."
If you have a girl and want her to be an anthropologist, you could name her Rose E. Veldt.
26: But you absolutely must call him "Rosey." It's all right to cry, halford.
It is, after all, all right to cry.
If some one's last name is Rover, they clearly have an obligation to make their daughter's first and middle names Veronica Mars.
Random fact I recently discovered: Kevin Smith's daughter is named Harley Quinn (first, middle).
I guess if you're going to name your kid after a comic book character that one is obscure enough not to cause problems.
Another unique option is "Magnus Deadlift."
The whole Jayden/Aiden/Brayden set of names (dubbed "bell-tone" names by the author of the Baby Name Wizard site) really grate for me. I'm afraid there will be an awful lot of them around, though.
Harley Quinn
That's not very obscure. She's in the Lego Batman game.
"Jupiter" wouldn't be a bad name. Nobody would fuck with a kid named Jupiter.
33: Have you named the awaited one? I'm not asking you to tell us the name! Just wondering if it's already decided (since I basically gave it no thought until I was told I had to write it on the birth certificate form).
31: you could just make the whole name the middle name. "Oskar Spiderman Jonesgreen"
We all know girls names have to end in "a", but only recently was it discovered that boys names have to end in "an".
31: You could also claim that she wasn't named after the comic book character, she was named after the minor Agatha Christie detective.
35: When he gets zits, kids will make jokes about the Great Red Spot. Unless you send him to a school with a shitty science program.
I still think Pterodactyl would be an awesome name.
@40
You could also claim that she wasn't named after the comic book character, she was named after the minor Agatha Christie detective.
If you're Kevin Smith, I don't think anyone will believe you.
I think "Jayden" is Britney Spears' fault.
39: That's why I don't understand why Madison is a girl's name.
33: Likewise, but I'm reluctant to point out that certain names are horrible on a blog where so many use pseudonyms and many have kids. I've stepped on the mine before.
A friend's just-born niece is called CyLee. I did not say anything. It's too late, anyway. The girl's going to be a stripper and it's all her parent's fault for not naming her Isabella.
45: Madison is a girl's name because of the movie Splash. All kids named Madison are named for 1984's most famous mermaid.
45: It's girlier if you spell it Madisyn. (I'm pretty sure that's not what my coworker's daughter just chose, but it's remarkably similar, I know.)
I enjoy getting to watch this from the outside. Mara has an awesome name, though I had nothing to do with it and it would never have crossed my radar. She has already learned -- in her one year of knowing how to say her full name -- which syllable to overemphasize so that people will be able to pronounce it right, which is adorable.
I am frankly glad that I have not needed to make this decision. So fraught.
Aiden (sp?) is a legit name 1500 years old. Jayden and Brayden are probably examples of that thing where little kids go on reciting rhyming nonsense syllables until somebody tells them to stop (there's a name for it but I can't remember it).
I love making this decision! I get all excited about it.
"Preserved Killick Flippanter" has a nice ring to it. Actually, I recently met a child with a Patrick O'Brian-derived name and impressed the parents by (1) recognizing it as such and (2) telling my PO'B book signing story.
47: Someone told me that before, but I didn't believe it. Did that movie really have that much influence?
51: Heebie! You need to let us name your next kid. Come on!
45, 47, 48: Just noticed that "Addison" is one of the top 5 girls' names in seven states, most of which also show a fondness for "Madison." Is it only a matter of time before "Radisson" becomes a popular boys' name?
I had a couple generations of ancestors named "Preserved." Also one named "Wrestling."
Names are currently in discussion - we have a bit of a list. Anything in the top 100 or so is ruled out. A key test is the food-ordering test: If you give your name to a cashier, who has to key in your name, and then someone else calls it out, will it survive the process intact? My wife can usually tell when her order comes up because the person calling out names looks puzzled.
(I'm somewhat in awe of my friend who named his kids Ultraviolet, Millivolt, and Combustion - more commonly known as Violet, Millie, and Buster).
56: *boggle* *boggle* ohhhhh . . . like with angels!
45: Madison is a girl's name because of the movie Splash. All kids named Madison are named for 1984's most famous mermaid.
Let's see, according to the SSA Madison didn't become popular until the 90s.
1985: #628 girls' name
1986: #366
1989: #222
1992: #107
1995: #29
Since 1997, in the top 10.
Was #2 or #3 for seven years (2000-2006), more recently #8.
A key test is the food-ordering test: If you give your name to a cashier, who has to key in your name, and then someone else calls it out, will it survive the process intact?
My name cannot survive any one step of this three step process. I'm always relieved to be wearing a name tag if I'm introducing myself.
56: I can only hope that it was pronounced 'Rasslin'.
That said, I'm a fan of difficult names. Even though neither of our kids have them.
47: If you run the name "Madison" through the widget on this page, you will notice that the name first appears on the list in 1985. Coincidence?
I recently met a child with a Patrick O'Brian-derived name and impressed the parents by (1) recognizing it as such
"Jack" and "Stephen" are pretty common. Girls names get you "Sophie" (on the list!) and "Diana." "Sir Joseph Blaine," run together, would be a pretty awesome first name, but seems unlikely. So are we at "Aubrey" or have they gone full crazy and named their kid "Awkward Davies"?
Owned by 59.... my point was that the movie came out in 1984 and the name first showed up on the radar the following year.
51: Heebie! You need to let us name your next kid. Come on!
Oh, we're already going with Matt Weiner.
I've got my money on Portia making a comeback.
57: That doesn't even work for my name, which is about as easy and short as "Thorn" because people always mishear it. That shouldn't be true now that it's popular for kiddies, but still seems to be.
63: A kid with no name rode through the desert on me.
I'm going with "Roosevelt."
I know a five-year-old Jefferson.
38: I'm in favor of using the middle name to full extent. It is moderately private, so why not make any important references there? My nephew's middle name is Cannonball.
People misspell my first name an alarmingly large percentage of the time.
Well, the whale is very famous.
This year's fastest-rising girl names show that Aubrey has already crossed the fence. The fastest-rising boy names" are more diverse.
We've anecdotally heard of several children whose middle name is Danger, which...jeez.
I was named after my grandfather, Moshe (Moses in English).
But instead of just naming me Moshe or Moses, my parents decided to give me a more normal American name, and so they wound up, in effect, naming me after a cat.
Moshe (Moses in English).
I learned something today. Thanks.
75: Rob/Molly and I have a friend who gave it to both of his daughters as a middle name. And I know of others!
they wound up, in effect, naming me after a cat
Or the 20th President.
"Dander is my middle name. My parents were overly dramatic, possessed of a strange humor, and poor at spelling."
A key test is the food-ordering test: If you give your name to a cashier, who has to key in your name, and then someone else calls it out, will it survive the process intact?
My first name is terrible for this. Sometimes I use my middle name instead in these situations.
"Damper is my middle name. My parents had been having a lot of fun."
The list in 74 is awesome because it demonstrates that many parents are naming their boys after Raylan Givens. So great.
79: Wrong cat!
77: You're welcome! My comment was educational! A first?
85.2: I suppose I should have been able to figure it out on my own, but I had not.
51: I love making this decision! I get all excited about it.
I can see that! I figure, if I'd had a kid, I'd have named it after my mother (nicely named) if a girl. I think I'd tend not to want to frontload a kid with a bunch of aspirations going in to life, so I'd think along the lines of the musicality of the entire name and try to avoid any status anxiety. Obviously bearing in mind and hopefully avoiding any names that lend themselves to terrible teasing in early life.
Statistical probability suggests there must be at least one kid out there whose middle name is Pwned.
A blogfriend (not this blog) of mine was telling a story of how her mother couldn't stand the name she'd given her kid, and how her mother was being annoyingly persistent in mentioning this, and I thought "get a life, blogfriend's mom!" and then I saw the actual name, unanonymized on facebook and thought "oh, I see."
On Madison -- it does seem to have actually started with the mermaid in Splash. Crazy.
I guess at a certain point a name becomes accepted, and people aren't thinking about where it came from anymore.
I wonder about this with Dylan. Are parents naming their kid after Dylan Thomas, Bob Dylan or the character in Beverly Hills 90210? Probably, most often, these days, the answere is none of the above.
91: Dylan blew up as a boys name in the 90s. I think it's BH90210. The lists in 74 are reality teevee heavy for sure. A little scary.
74 drives my older girl nuts, as it sounds like everyone is mispronouncing her name.
They all go back to Dylan Thomas, don't they? It isn't like Bob Dylan's parents were Mr. and Mrs. Dylan.
Oh, we're already going with Matt Weiner.
And if it's a boy...?
I suspect they're just trying to be cool.
91: I have a coworker who named her child Macy (8ish years ago, so before it was quite as ubiquitous as now) but doesn't like the singer Macy Gray or shopping at Macy's and got offended when people suggested either origin. Apparently it just sounded good.
97: Maybe she was really into Jurasic Park III.
The theory I heard about Madison (again from Laura Wattenberg) is that it wasn't so much the people of childbearing when the movie was released who used it - since they got the joke - but the people who were younger when they saw the movie, and then had kids some years later. But the movie was definitely credited with its popularity.
My sister named her son "Ch/valry." I can't wait to hear what she comes up with for her second (a girl) arriving next month.
98: That must be it. (And while I'm talking to Moby, 2 was great.)
101: It was at that.
102: It's easy to be chaste if you can't leave the presume.
102: Most of the Chastities I've seen in the wild have turned out to be Chasities on paper. Not sure what that means, really.
I'm sure I've posted before about the child I met named Cl\in\ique.
Not the cosmetics company -- a combination of her father's first name and mother's first name (Clinton and Monique).
||
Just found out one of my young people is going to D\e\e\p Spri\ngs College! SO delighted.
||>
Val's kindergarten class had both a black Alize and a white Alize. That's how I know we're in a truly integrated town.
I know a family with a daughter Madison and a younger son Lexington. I'm fairly sure she's not named for the mermaid. (And I wish they'd had more kids. Irving? Columbus?)
108: Either New Yorkers or people from Central Kentucky.
We are currently wrestling with this issue. We have a boy, which is unfortunate since we had a perfect girl's name picked out (is it just me or is it a lot easier to name girls).
ATM: Do people think Magnus is too grandiose for a first name? There is actually a strong family connection.
68 - It's used in a spectacularly terrible pun in Stephen Fry's Revenge (aka The Gods' Tennis Balls), so the odds are looking good!
(And I wish they'd had more kids. Irving? Columbus?)
Classier than Bakersfield and Athens.
110. If you have Icelandic/Shetland/Norwegian connections it's fine; otherwise you may as well go all the way with Max.
Magnus is a perfectly awesome name. All the more so if there's a family connection.
ATM: Do people think Magnus is too grandiose for a first name?
I have a friend who named his kids Sam/son and Alex/ander, and I thought that was just the right amount of grandiose. Magnus strikes me as a bit much, but I think it depends on the nature of the family connection.
Pretty much any name that sounds like you could have been a Germanic noble before 1100 ad is awesome, IMHO.
108:I'm fairly sure she's not named for the mermaid.
Except she actually is. In the movie, the way the mermaid got her name was from Madison Ave.
I've only known Magnus as a middle name, but I'm sure it could work in the right context. Magnus Washington is not so great, so it's a good thing you're presidential!
I know a guy whose last name is Magnus. He has a first name, but nobody uses it. Everyone calls him Magnus.
117: May not all of them. This guy sounds like a Roman breakfast cereal.
Agree with 119; Magnus only works if paired with the right last name.
Magnus Underwood => awesome
Magnus Pecksniff => not so much
120. I was at school with just such a guy. This isn't an Englishman with an even more unusual first name?
Nope, he's a New York Jew with a bog-standard first name.
I've mentioned before that I know a family with daughters named Mad/ison, Logan, and Savan/nah. It would be fine if they weren't all (except Sava/nnah, so far) noticeably privileged and kind of horrible, unfortunately. They may change once they get past their late teens.
110: I'd be skittish about "Magnus". Go ahead if you like, but provide a middle name that's more manageable? (I have a friend named Fitz/hugh Thomas lastname, who went by Tom for a while before he changed to Fitz. Another friend named Thomps/on Law/rence lastname, who went by his initials. These things can be worked with.)
Magnus is great.
I am tormented by the fact that I don't know whether this was intentional.
I though 122 was going to link to the other Magnus Magnusson, World's Strongest Man.
This post title makes me sing "Gucci gucci fendi fendi louie louie prada!"
For my kid before we found out the sex I was seriously pulling for Conrad, Otto, and Charles; I'm also fond of Ansgar. My daughter's first preschool had a Guilhelm and a Balthazzar, named by an uberfashionable couple, so perhaps medieval-ish names are poised for an upsurge.
127 -- I am sorry my credit has fallen so low that you would not have assumed intentional.
perhaps medieval-ish names are poised for an upsurge
Astrolabe?
132: I actually did, but then 117 made me wonder if you were just being enthusiastic. Thank you for ending my torment.
I keep waiting for the popularity of Carthaginian names to spread to the US from Latin America. "Anibal", "Amilcar" and "Asdrubal" keep popping up among the names of baseball prospects.
I know a family with a daughter Madison and a younger son Lexington. I'm fairly sure she's not named for the mermaid.
Both named for porn stars, obviously.
The importance of the firstname lastname combination cannot be stressed enough.
135: Well, there were like 300 girls at my high school named Alyssa.
138. Well you could differentiate your kid by calling her Florian Cloud de Bounevialle O'Malley (all given names)
AAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGHGGGGHHHH!!!
There was a 2" green caterpillar on my neck! Yuk!
OP: Pretty much every kid under 5 in my social circle has a name with a V in it, with the exception of E/an and Atr3yu*.
*Weird thing about that name: One of my little sister's friends had a sister named that, by her baby-boomer parents. And they were super-conservative, uptight Catholics too.
108: I think "Ticonderoga" would round out the set nicely.
There is a very nice finding that while the heterogeneity of names is increasing (cf 8 above), especially for girls, and heterogeneity in the spelling of names is also going up, there's been a really big and weird decrease in the range of end-sounds in names, I think especially for girls.
Shit, I mean for boys---a big restriction in letter-endings for boys' names. Here you go.
143: That doesn't seem very weird. As the number of names in common usage increases, it would make sense for name endings to increasingly bear the functional load of indicating gender.
The only thing I know about caterpillars is "don't eat the fuzzy ones". They are pretty cool to watch. Just not to have walking on the back of your neck.
117:
Hannibal de Bréauté, mort ! Antoine de Mouchy, mort ! Charles Swann, mort ! Adalbert de Montmorency, mort ! Baron de Talleyrand, mort ! Sosthène de Doudeauville, mort !
From 144 it's not clear that what I mentioned in 145 is actually what's going on in this particular case, of course.
Adalbert is a name that could bear being revived. As per 117.
Also "Berengar". And for a girl, "Clothilde". Are you listening heebie.
Clearly what the discerning parent-to-be needs is an app to pull a random name out of all those used historically, so they're less likely to become part of trends they don't realize are trends.
Just about all these names are underused.
Also these, more understandably.
All these Madisons and Jeffersons -- you'd think people would want to go with Gallatin now and then. I guess peace, prosperity, and abolition just don't hold up in the face of mermaids moving on up to the eastside.
152: I wouldn't go with "Chloderic the Parricide" regardless.
153: Prominent statesmen who didn't become president tend to not be used much as sources for names, it's true.
Lots of people are named for Stephen Douglas, maybe.
Pretty much every name on this list is a winner. I like "Magnatrude."
153: Some of those Jeffersons are Davis.
Our rule for names is they must not be in the top 100. We had a girl's name that I like picked out 8 years ago, which I thought was better than all the boys names we had. Then we had 3 boys, and now we're finally having a girl and some damn celebrities went and used the girl's name so it's going to rocket up the list. I think we'll still use it.
Holy popup spam on the link in 157.
But that aside, Lanthechilde is an awesome name for a chemist's kid.
Magnatrude sounds like a plus-sized condom.
Scrooge McDuck is apparently "Dagobert" in Germany, so I'd vote for that.
Long-term trends in presidentially-inspired names.
In the Clouds, Strepsiades goes off on his wife's pompous social climbing for giving their kid one of those names with "hippos" in it.
Magnus sounds perfectly ordinary to me and it's a great name, but then again, my name seems pretty normal (if slightly old-fashioned for my age) to me, but it's quite unusual and weirdly difficult for most Americans. I have a relative who named her son Maximus, which seems a bit over the top.
As a baby, my brother went on a campaign to get me renamed Otto, but it ultimately didn't stick. When my brother was born, my parents got lots of crap for naming him Peter instead of something like Magnus or Thorvald, and they tried to point out in the US a kid named Peter would get less crap than a kid named Thorvald. [Turns out being named Britta doesn't spare you crap from kids as the idiocy of middle-schoolers cannot be underestimated, but I think it built character]
If I had kids, I would name my daughter Gerd and my son Leif. (Both names are personally meaningful.) I've only got negative responses from non-Scandinavians from both these names. My partner is Italian and has some Armenian background, so I might have to compromise. Gerd Hripsame My last name-his last name?
[Turns out being named Britta doesn't spare you crap from kids as the idiocy of middle-schoolers cannot be underestimated, but I think it built character]
Balthazar Picsou! Now that's a name (and a previous French name for Scrooge is apparently Oncle Harpagon, after Moliere's Miser).
Balthazar Picsou! Now that's a name (and a previous French name for Scrooge is apparently Oncle Harpagon, after Moliere's Miser).
I sort of understand the not in the top 100 thing and tried to use a strategy similar to LB's, I got sort of hit with that on both mine -- aiming not exactly for unique, but for good solid ordinary unfashionable name that'd be fairly rare with semi-similar results (one of the three turned out to be much more common). But I find mine and everyone else's motives to be irretrievably suspect, and therefor this is one minor entry on my list of why God should come and strike us down and start over with the squirrels.
"Gerd" is no good. Everyone would pronounce it to rhyme with "Word".
Squirrels fucked up so monkeys were next.
Gerd is a lovely name but also a reflux disease.
If I moved to Hungary, I'd have to change my name, or its spelling anyway, because it kinda means "shit."
I am astonished that the name "Esme" was only given to a couple hundred girls. That seems like just the sort of name that's in right now -- plus litrachur!
175:
Yeah, and its also a nickname for the male name Gerhard in Germany. It should be pronounced as G-aird, but most people would say G-urd. There is the more feminized version Gerda that avoids some of these problems (which is also a family name), but I prefer Gerd. Anyways, I'll probably have to give it up, if it even ever comes up as an issue (offspring are still a ways off and not a complete certainty, so no point in worrying about it now...)
155 -- AG is tragically underrated.
Why does the stupid internet not have readily available that clip from Everything You Know Is Wrong: Ben Franklin; the only president of the United States who was never president of the United States?
Why does the stupid internet not have readily available that clip from Everything You Know Is Wrong: Ben Franklin; the only president of the United States who was never president of the United States?
Probably the work of those dastardly Hamiltonians.
67, 129: Instead of "Matt Weiner", how about "Kreayshawn"?
I was trying to remember (ok, google up) the line about the woman named Joy who changes her name to Hulga because it's the ugliest name she can think of in Flannery O'Connor's "Good Country People." There should be a Hulga Upsurge.
181 -- He wasn't there.
Here's an excerpt from Franklin's diary: "So I betook me to the Hashfire Inn. There I met the rebellious libertines, all lusting for life and liberty. George Washington brought the hemp and I the evening papers. We proceeded to get Sam Adams and young Tom Jefferson goodly stretched by the hemp, which smoked us all like Boston scrod. 'I say' cried fiery Sam Adams, the tax collector, 'Let's have a revolution!' To which I replied, 'Fine, Sam - then we can invite over a bunch of immigrants and make cars.'"
Her name was really Joy but as soon as she was twenty-one and away from home, she had
had it legally changed. Mrs. Hopewell was certain that she had thought and thought until
she had hit upon the ugliest name in any language. Then she had gone and had the
beautiful name, Joy, changed without telling her mother until after she had done it. Her
legal name was Hulga.
184 -- Version in TFA is slightly different.
There is the more feminized version Gerda that avoids some of these problems
It wouldn't solve the americanized pronunciation problem, though. Or is the pronunciation Gurda somehow okay, whereas Gurd is not? (Now that I write it that way, I see that the american pronunciation would rhyme with turd. Oh yay, middle school will be awesome.)
183, 185: Reminds me in a distant way of the small P'burgh industrial suburb which somehow managed to change its name from 'Hoboken' and end up with a worse one, 'Blawnox'*.
*After the Blaw-Knox company.
(181 -- And of course it's no surprise that none of the three forks was named after AH. Whom Clark called Gen. Hambleton in his journal.)
Why does Balthazar get all the action? What are Caspar and Melchior, chopped myrrh?
"Hulga Upsurge" is now available to future commenters.
191, 192 -- And M makes me think of talking cows.
I think "Melchior" is a lovely name. It was part of the Park-Slope-ian-refined-yet-romance-novel-heroine-esque name of a onetime classmate who was, in retrospect, I think kind of coming on to me.
If I had to articulate a simple principle for the naming of hypothetical Flippanter offspring, it would be something like: Acceptable names must have been in use as Christian* names for not less than 1,000 years.
* Let's set aside that particular kettle of fish for the nonce.
I think "Melchior" is a lovely name.
Too Spring Awakening.
195: I knew an older gentleman who was moved to ask "Is there a Saint Madison?"
A joke my dad used to tell:
There was once a person who was for some reason named George the Toilet Seat. At one point he* went to a judge to have his name legally changed. The judge asked why, and George said, "Well, your honor, I'm actually a woman." The judge said, "Well, that makes sense, since your name is really not very feminine. What would you like to change it to?" "George the Female Toilet Seat." And so it was done.
*I forget how my dad worded the setup to get around the obvious pronoun problems. It may just be the kind of joke that doesn't really work in writing.
197: "I'd check the Champagne Room."
AG is tragically underrated.
He was certainly an interesting guy. Very important to the history of American linguistics, among his other accomplishments.
All those Isabellas in MA get free museum admission.
Many museums have a "suggest donation" that you can ignore anyway.
That's pretty awesome. It's unclear whether it was a condition on the legacy or a promotion -- if the former, man are they losing out on that one with the upcoming generation. That museum is one of maybe 4 good things about Boston.
204. The others are the Celtics, the Red Sox, and sports fans.
203: I have, blushing like mad, paid for tightwad friends (one or two had fun proffering a nickel or a dime at the nice girls at the ticket desk) at the Metropolitan Museum, my reasoning being something along the lines of "Are you too fucking good to pay to see the Euphronios krater?* Three or four Vermeers just not enough for your $20?"
* Thumps chest, points skyItaly-ward.
206: NOOOO! ITALY BE STEALIN'* MY EUPHRONIOS KRATER!!!!
*Not really. At all. I still want it back.
206: Dude, your friends should have punched you in the head.
I've been the tightwad at the Metropolitan before, and I stand by that action. I would pay now, but I have more money than I did then.
196: But I am rather fond of Lauritz.
Why do museums do that "suggested donation" thing anyway? It's not like there's no precedent for museums charging actual admission fees.
I would suspect because they are receiving other funding tied to a condition of no-fees. I know in the UK, the Labour government shifted to a no-fees model, but you can still get heavily pushed to donate.
207: One opposes unregulated excavation, illegal dealing in antiquities and the basement warehouses full of disorganized, untraceable, sometimes ruined treasures that that business fosters but also misses the E.K. Plus, Berlusconi probably dropped it the minute the plane landed and they're just covering that up.
208-9: Philistines.
Also I am hugely in favour of not paying so-called suggested donations, they are entrance fees in disguise and you shouldn't have to pay to see the common heritage of humanity.
The Met has an endowment of 2 billion dollars. Somehow they will manage.
I would pay considerably more than 20 dollars to not die of cancer, but I even think that should be free.
213.1: I was insisting it was just going to end up in a basement -- but it's not. Very nicely displayed at the Villa Giulia. But I'm still sad because it is my favorite Greek pot (it has my boy Sarpedon on it).
Isn't the Met largely funded by rich people who think philanthropy should usually involve giving money in ways that benefit mostly other rich people, but it's ok if the non-rich tag along sometimes? Or is it a public institution? I suppose I could look it up.
[Grinds teeth.]
If those who claim to care for the common heritage of humanity fail to support it with their filthy lucre now, precisely what will happen in 2050 when Kim Kardashian III wants to sensurround-capture the arson-themed wedding episode finale of Season 3 of "This Is Why Your Grandparents Hated This Godless Culture" in the European painting galleries?
What I like about the suggested donation thing is that it allows me to go in and out of the same museum and partake of it in several bite-sized chunks and only pay the first time.
I would suspect because they are receiving other funding tied to a condition of no-fees.
Ah, that makes sense. It may not apply to the Met specifically, but probably does in some other cases.
220: But they give you a little button!
220: But they give you a little button!
Not every museum does it that way! But yes, true.
I love those little buttons. Because I love beauty. And culture. And [sniff] mankind's evidence of itself to itself. [Sheds manly yet sensitive tear.]
Screw the future, here and now every human has a right to see art without any question of how much money they have. Attempts to interfere with that are sins.
precisely what will happen in 2050 when Kim Kardashian III wants to sensurround-capture the arson-themed wedding episode finale of Season 3 of "This Is Why Your Grandparents Hated This Godless Culture" in the European painting galleries?
Profit!
218: If you're worried about it, I suggest you find an actual museum that needs money, i.e. not the Met.
225: The question is not one of rights, but duties. Enlightened democracy comprises more than craft beer and HBO health care and teachers' unions.
Let's not get too crazy now, 225.
I agree it's fine to waltz into the Metropolitan Museum for free if you're poor or a broke student or whatever -- that's why the admission was made free. It's vaguely tacky to not pay the suggested donation if you can reasonably afford it though. Not sure where to put the cut off line -- I'd say you're making more than, I dunno, 30k a year and don't pay, you are a jerk.
Screw duties talk, go see art for free. If you want to do something for mankind, make some art yourself, run a project space, serve nasty wine at openings, have fun.
OT: Why does the blonde girl on Game of Thrones keep announcing her name and epithet? I don't remember her doing that in the books. Does she think they forgot who she is after they were introduced? Does the show think we, the audience, have forgotten? What does "Stormborn" mean, anyway? "I am familiar with bad weather. Beware!"
I absolutely have friends who are gainfully employed and would unhesitatingly pay $15 for a cocktail and yet are proud of not paying the suggested donation (sometimes even to the refrain of "art should be free, man!"). That is annoying. Not students or the impoverished not paying. I think every museum in NYC is free (as in they don't even bother with ticket taking) on Friday afternoons anyway.
I was a little shocked at how expensive the admission was the last time I went to the Frick in NYC (my favorite museum) -- I think it was $20, which I kind of think of as in the amusement park range. It was nicely non-crowded.
Of course, in general I don't think charity is a good way to run the world. So there's slightly more vehemence here than is really needed.
233: Man, don't visit on a Sunday. Crowds really cramp my style while explaining the joke of hanging a portrait of anticlerical pornographer Pietro Aretino next to the Bellini of my bro St. Francis.
I think it was $20, which I kind of think of as in the amusement park range.
That's how much Meadowcroft is, which as I mentioned in a recent thread is one of the reasons I decided not to go there when I was in Pittsburgh. Friendship Hill is free, however, to mention another place in that area that I considered going to but didn't (and to bring things back to Gallatin).
I was a little shocked at how expensive the admission was the last time I went to the Frick in NYC (my favorite museum) -- I think it was $20, which I kind of think of as in the amusement park range.
Museum admission prices startle me more now that I am contemplating paying for three tickets at once, rather than just for me, though of course Jane still gets in everywhere for free or cheap.
I was all excited to hear that Cleveland was getting a fancy new aquarium, but apparently it is a for-profit entity, boo, with ticket prices of $21.95 for grownups and $15.95 for kids age 2-12. BOO BOO BOO.
What does "Stormborn" mean, anyway? "I am familiar with bad weather. Beware!"
She was born during a really bad storm. Seriously!
We've got a family membership to our local robber baron museum. More places should combine art with dinosaurs. It's hard to find a path to the dinosaurs where you aren't forced to appreciate art for at least a few seconds in your peripheral vision.
239: Is she naked as often as the wikipedia page would imply?
237: Oh lord. CA is going to feel very strongly about the enslavement of aquatic mammals.
I love your local robber baron museum, especially for the way it combines the natural history and the art.
It's hard to find a path to the dinosaurs where you aren't forced to appreciate art for at least a few seconds in your peripheral vision.
I didn't actually find that to be the case when I visited that one, actually.
Is this the thread where I can complain about the name "Megan" for Don Draper's new wife? It is utterly wrong, and ridiculous. She is supposed to have been born c. 1940, and born in French Canada, for God's sake.
I want them to fix it. I want "Megan" to finally confess: "My name isn't really 'Megan,' it's Marie-Louise. It's just that I wanted to make it as an actress, and I thought 'Megan' sounded more optimistic and American."
I didn't actually find that to be the case when I visited that one, actually.
Really? I'm surprised. What door did you go in?
245: There's a sculpture garden right outside a giant window where as you stand to get tags and stuff in the halls.
The good art isn't right there on the way in, but the new stuff is all around.
247: I am totally hung up on the same thing!
Really? I'm surprised. What door did you go in?
The fancy modernist one. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention.
I guess I did see the sculpture garden in 249.
247: He name was probably Margaret and she Anglicized it.
252: Legally, the fountain in front of that door counts as art. But, if you went in that way and then went first to see the not-dinosaur parts of the natural history museum, you might have missed most of the art in the hall.
There's also a little gallery on your right (just after the gift shop) as you go toward the natural history museum. It has a small changing exhibit of (usually?) modern stuff.
But, if you went in that way and then went first to see the not-dinosaur parts of the natural history museum, you might have missed most of the art in the hall.
I think this is more or less what I did. I don't remember the details all that well, though.
But, if you went in that way and then went first to see the not-dinosaur parts
Oh huh, I guess you might go straight downstairs first (though that seems unlikely, because not much is down there). Then you'd miss everything except the sculpture garden. Now I'm looking at the floor plan and I see that you can enter the 1st floor natural history stuff by way of the Hall of Sculpture or Hall of Architecture (as I'm used to) or you can scootch right in via the geology stuff. But in that case you'd still get a peripheral view of the little gallery I mentioned in 256.
I miss Pittsburgh!
If you really want to avoid art, you go in by the library's entrance and walk through the underground tunnel with the workers' lockers or take the first elevator to the top floor and walk down the hall of "Fuck it, let's just shoot until we run out of bullets and take the lot to a taxidermist."
I assumed she was a Margaux and changed it to Megan as an anglicization. But it seems that Megane is the 16th most popular name in Quebec.
I found it equally improbable (doubtless stemmign from a France/Quebec confusion) that her parents were supposedly Marxist French-Canadian academics, given the notorious uber-conservatism of French Canada in that period.
If you really want to avoid art, you go in by the library's entrance
That's what I was thinking of when I asked which way he went in. That entrance is cool/sketchy.
Oh huh, I guess you might go straight downstairs first (though that seems unlikely, because not much is down there).
There's all kinds of stuff. The snack bar, the lockers, the little kid play area, the secret entrance to the library, the little railroad tracks in the floor, some classrooms, and the men's restroom that is 33.3% more likely to smell reasonable than the upstairs ones.
I'm looking at the floor plan and I see that you can enter the 1st floor natural history stuff by way of the Hall of Sculpture or Hall of Architecture (as I'm used to) or you can scootch right in via the geology stuff.
After looking at the floor plan myself, the latter is definitely what I did.
263.1 was supposed to have been italicized.
Obviously, it's much quicker to just appreciate some art instead of going in by what is basically the service entrance.
But it seems that Megane is the 16th most popular name in Quebec.
Today, sure. But the name was unheard of in 1940s Quebec (and barely heard of in 1940s English Canada and America, for that matter).
The Marxism of the parents does not seem implausible. As Montreal urban academics, they are of course not typical of the province as a whole. And an uber-conservative Catholic society does tend to produce Marxist intellectuals.
I've just done what I suggested in 151, pulling randomly from the bottom half of names in the full SSA list 1880-1939 (their public files exclude names given to fewer than 5 people that year).
A sample run:
Limuel (M, 1924)
Donivan (M, 1920)
Crusita (F, 1932)
Rosaline (F, 1902)
Ralph (F, 1891)
Jetta (F, 1903)
Janith (F, 1924)
Hurshell (M, 1932)
Amye (F, 1921)
Deciderio (M, 1919)
Man, I'm seeing a lot of "creative" misspellings. Elmor, Birtie, Sarrah, Eligah, Rodolphe, Cloe...
229: It's vaguely tacky to not pay the suggested donation if you can reasonably afford it though. Not sure where to put the cut off line -- I'd say you're making more than, I dunno, 30k a year and don't pay, you are a jerk.
30k a year doesn't get you very far, and it's a matter of the proportion of your income the admission fee represents. Museums are already the province of the relatively well-heeled. Getting uppity about what counts as tacky is ... tacky.
Her parents were seeming pretty French French, weren't they? Also, that was Julia Ormond -- mon dieu!
I was all excited to hear that Cleveland was getting a fancy new aquarium, but apparently it is a for-profit entity, boo, with ticket prices of $21.95 for grownups and $15.95 for kids age 2-12. BOO BOO BOO.
Also, it sucks. The most interesting creatures they have are a couple seahorses.
On museum fees:
1. Most of the biggest patrons of my local snooty art museums are the owners/major shareholders of companies I've either worked for or done business with my whole life. Those profits that are buying them their name on a frosted glass plaque are profits that I have sweated for.
2. I do usually drop in a couple of bucks to be nice, because many, many of my friends currently work, or have worked in the past, for those institutions, and I don't want them to be laid off because of a dip in individual donations.
3. If I'm dropping in a couple of bucks, it would probably make more sense to write them a check and put it in an envelope, so my name would at least be in the annual report or whatever, and I'd get invited to the hoi polloi openings.
4. Do you know how much money some of those big institutions waste on PR and Marketing? When I was an arts & entertainment editor, I'd get at least two large padded envelopes full of tapes & DVDs & slides & printed material EVERY WEEK! The local modern art museum has an annual budget that is the same size as the local Catholic archdiocese. That's a lot of money.
5. I'm not really crazy about the centralization that the big museums tend to encourage. On the other hand, a lot of them have programs that fund rural arts stuff, or traveling stuff, or whatever.
6. A lot of the politics of those institutions are pretty messed up. Why should the snooty classical art museum have curators for individual European countries, or periods of US-European history, and then ONE curator for Native + South Asian + Oceanic + central & South American art? That's not right.
7. Kropotkin thought things like public libraries and art museums were a concrete step towards anarchism.
8. Eight, I forget what eight was for.
Let's see you gestate an egg, Mr. Amazing.
I thought the French-speaking Canadian universities, and pretty much all education in Quebec, was controlled by the Church through the 1960s, but I could be wrong.
All French-speaking education, that is.
I was a little shocked at how expensive the admission was the last time I went to the Frick in NYC (my favorite museum) -- I think it was $20, which I kind of think of as in the amusement park range.
Geez, welcome to the 90s, grandpa.
King's Dominion, $50 for adults, $38 for kids.
Six Flags Magic Mountain, $37 for everyone if you buy online, $62 at the box office.
Hershey Park, $57, $36 for kids.
Most of these places will sell you a season pass for the price of about 2 and a half day passes.
The Frick is basically an amusement park for snobs.
Adventure City is still only $15. Admittedly it's not too great if you're over 6, but it's where the R. Halford amusement park dollar is going these days.
It took me the longest time to realize that there is another "The Frick" in New York and that it might be more well known than the one by me.
Adventure City looks like it isn't far from the Nixon Library, if you want to make a day of it.
Friendship Hill is worth a stop. I'd like to read a good book about AG's work behind the scenes on the 1796 and 1800 presidential campaigns. I have a sense that there's a pretty good story in there. Also like to see a good book on his efforts to avert, and then quickly end, the War of 1812.
I had a whirlwind impromptu visit to the Getty last week, killing time before lunch with Halford. What a setting!
The Frick is basically an amusement park for snobs.
You must be this tall to appreciate Turner.
231:
OT: She deserves a break, Flip. Any mammal nursing fire-breathing reptiles has got to be under stress. Not to mention that conquering the world thing she's into.
She deserves some conditioner. Her hair looks really dry.
286 is me after a full OS restore.
Most of these places will sell you a season pass for the price of about 2 and a half day passes.
An annual membership to the Met is $70, vs. the suggested donation of $25.
Also, I can't believe Playland is up to $30.
289.1: Yeah, I have memberships mostly.
289.2: The Dragon Coaster!!!! (I love the Dragon Coaster.)
275: The 1960s was the Quiet Revolution when much of Quebec was secularized.
The FLQ started their terrorism bombing campaign in 1963. I don't think they were Maxist, though.
Sadly we didn't get a lot of Quebec history growing up. Or recent Canadian history anywhere really.
||
Confidential to LB: It sure seems to me that the new NBC series Revolution is basically S.M. Stirling's Dies the Fire, but with a few significant details changed (like that gunpowder still works) so that they won't have to pay royalties.
||>
the suggested donation of $25.
Whoa, $25, I hadn't realized that. I'm gonna revise my $30k cutoff up to $65k for when you have to pay. I think $30k-$65k you're on a sliding scale. Those are the rules of propriety, deal with them.
I really want to go to the City Museum in St. Louis some day. All my friends who have been say it is simply divine.
It is amusing to read 286 (having forgotten what 231 was about) as referring to the woman we reprobates have taken to calling Lunchy.
292: Nothing able to explode makes for visual poverty on network TV 'cause they can't use boobs to compensate.
292: Fredric Brown did the basic idea first in "The Waveries". I bet Stirling will sue, they'll settle, and the series will be totally stupid.
I really want to go to the City Museum in St. Louis some day.
Yeah, I basically can't say enough good things about it. I toured the place before it was open, when there was just a weirdo dude putting crazy mosaics in the entryway, and he's just kept building stuff for over a decade now. The slide that goes the entire height of the building is amazing.
273: Your "local" modern art museum is one of the preëminent contemporary art museums in the country. It should have a large budget. (The diocese, not so much, although the Basilica does some good work.)
The FLQ started their terrorism bombing campaign in 1963. I don't think they were Maxist, though.
In mainstream Canuckistan, the FLQ were widely seen (and denounced) as some sort of Marxist-Leninist paramilitary front. Not that this view was necessarily accurate, of course, but I believe that some FLQ members saw themselves as broadly Marxist in inspiration (though also, and more importantly, as nationalist in aim). Btw, the combination of Marxist universalism with ethnic-nationalist particularism might seem a bit curious, not to say contradictory, but this heady brew was a feature of 1950s and 60s anti-colonialist movements more broadly, I think?
In any case, certainly there were lefties (and hard-line lefties at that) in the Quebec universities of the 50s and 60s. Halford exaggerates the control of the RC Church, and also, I suspect, misunderstands the political effects of a collectivist Catholic tradition turned (or in the process of turning) secular.
Do you know the names of any French-Canadian marxist university professors in the 1960s? Not saying you're wrong, but I couldn't find an example with a search or two.
That is, a French Canadian teaching at one of the French-speaking Quebec universities.
Did you search in English, French, or the French-like idiom of Quebec?
Because not everything gets to google.
And, I should say, 1950s-early 1960s, pre-secularization of the educational system. My Google skills are not that strong.
246 I use the word "actually" so much it makes me quite cross with myself. I don't even know what it's doing in so many places in so many sentences. Once, at an interview for a really bad job I'm pleased I didn't get, the interviewer suddenly pointed out to me that I say "actually" all the time. I sputtered and said "well, ok, not sure what to do about that," to which she responded in this weird, inappropriate tone of concern, "well, [firstname of me], all you have to do is ask." I have been angry about this interaction ever since. But would, yes, like to say "actually" less.
I don't know much about Canada for all the usual reasons, but I do know that socialist teachers work in Catholic schools and I suspect that was more commonly hidden in situations where you didn't have another option if you wanted a job.
303: Any French-Canadian teaching at a Quebec university? Like you want to know if the Quebecois taught at their own universities?
Sorry, I think I'm misunderstanding.
Also yeah I got by in New York on 37.5K almost ten years ago and really did not have money to spare. That first year I went to theater and opera (my main reasons for moving here) occasionally, in cheap seats, and it was a big deal. 30K now is about twice minimum wage.
My cousin (I think he was a cousin -- things got pretty complicated on the fictive kinship front for the surviving members of the "family" after the Nazis killed almost everyone else) used to teach Poli Sci at Laval. Before he died, I mean. Anyway, he was a Marxist and would have been there in the 60s.
I mean, to continue with this particularly awesome form of procrastination, it was apparently illegal to even print "any newspaper, periodical, pamphlet, circular, document or writing, propagating Communism or Bolshevism" in Quebec until 1957, much less to be an openly Marxist university professor at one of the French-speaking universities.
He wants to know if any were commies with hot daughters.
Oh, oops, he wasn't French-Canadian. He was a Russian Jew who spoke French too well for most of his students. Yeah, I'm sure his accent was why they didn't trust him.
310 -- as best as I can tell from the Canadian history I've learned in the past 15 minutes on the internet, the mostly-English speaking Jews in Montreal had a pretty strong leftist contingent, but the ethnically French Canadians were mostly in a pretty different position, at least until the late 1960s when everything seemed to change overnight, which must have made VW's uncle's position pretty interesting.
313: Maybe people kept quiet until they reached New York.
Do you know the names of any French-Canadian marxist university professors in the 1960s?
No. But I don't know the names of any Quebec university professors in the 1960s (or maybe I do, if I really sit and think about it, but at the moment no names spring to mind).
But I didn't say Marxist, Halford, I said lefty. And I'm thinking of, for example, Cité libre, and the intellectual context from which it emerged (that context "merely" liberal from a marxist perspective, admittedly, though certainly anti-clerical, but that liberalism so far left of the American centre that it looks "socialist" by comparison to the US, which is why I give Mad Men a pass for its depiction of the Marxist Montreal academics, though not for its naming a French Canadian woman "Megan").
Aha! That is helpful. But Megan's father is presented not just as a vaguely liberal social-democratic Pierre Trudeau type, but as an active Marxist who despises capitalism itself. Also in re university professorship:
In his memoirs, published in 1993, Trudeau wrote that during the 1950s, he wanted to teach at the Université de Montréal, but was blacklisted three times from doing so by Maurice Duplessis, then Premier of Quebec.
I think that he was supposed to be a Parisian Marxist intellectual a la Louis Althusser or something, and the writers just sort of forgot about how different French Canada was in the 1950s-early 1960s.
(I continue procrastinating - but I got a couple pages done and had a freak out so I'm accomplishing something)
I didn't realize how left-wing Quebec was in the 1960s. How public would a declaration of Marxism have to be? Just some people sitting around a cafe?
But 1960,was the year Lesage's party became the government and the 1950s was a whole different system (and probably one clinging to what power it had).
242- she's naked, her husband rides her like a horse, she has dragons sucking her breasts, she sleeps with her maids, and I'm only partway through the series. I sometimes wonder if Martin wrote the books with the goal of being the first series where fanfic is pointless because he's already covered everything.
blacklisted three times from doing so by Maurice Duplessis, then Premier of Quebec.
I understand that Maurice's wife, Megan, was the real brains behind his rise to the Premiership.
Interesting TV censorship choice overheard from the other room. In NatLamp's Vacation the cousin talking about French kissing says, [y]eah, but my science teacher says I'm the best at it instead of, [y]eah, but my Daddy says I'm the best at it.
I guess 324 should have pause/play, but maybe it was an indirect comment on Game of Thrones.
Let's not get distracted by blonde princesses with dragons and huge breasts, and stay focused on an even sexier issue: Quebec politics of the 1950s and 1960s. In the Mad Men episode, recall that Megan's father is presented as not only a French Canadian marxist intellectual/university professor, but one prominent enough to have an (English language) publisher in New York. I continue to assert that it is implausible, though not impossible, that a prominent outspoken Marxist would have been on the faculty of a french speaking Canadian university during Megan's childhood (roughly, 1940-1966) and it is implausible such a person would have been on the faculty even in 1966.
but as an active Marxist who despises capitalism itself.
Yeah, well, the arch-conservative, ultramontanist l'abbé Groulx also despised capitalism itself (but also despised, I strongly suspect, Von Wafer's cousin, in ways that were both creepy and scary, which is why I can't be all Vive le Québec libre! because what about Irving Layton? and Leonard Cohen?). Canada really is a bit weird, Halford, and the Québec context really a bit different from the American "norm."
The really doubtful part is that a Quebec academic would have an American publisher. What is the likelihood of that?
I continue to assert that it is implausible, though not impossible, that a prominent outspoken Marxist would have been on the faculty of a french speaking Canadian university during Megan's childhood (roughly, 1940-1966) and it is implausible such a person would have been on the faculty even in 1966.
I assert that it is more plausible to imagine a marxist on the faculty of a (French-or-English-language) Canadian university of the early 1960s, than to imagine a marxist flourishing in an American university of that same period. You seem to be hung up on the authoritarianism of the RC Church, Halford, but what about American anti-Cold War propaganda and paranoia?
But the RC church really was authoritarian in Quebec until, roughly, at least 1960! Which is why there was the quiet revolution, etc. Not trying to minimize McCarthyism in the states, but, I dunno, my Grandfather was an avowed communist who taught at a well-known US university throughout the 1950s (admittedly in a technical department), and, I dunno, Herbert Marcuse taught through the 50s and early 60s in the US.
Btw, the combination of Marxist universalism with ethnic-nationalist particularism might seem a bit curious, not to say contradictory, but this heady brew was a feature of 1950s and 60s anti-colonialist movements more broadly, I think?
There's a bunch of stuff on this with respect to the Soviet Union. Such as.
Confidential to LB: It sure seems to me that the new NBC series Revolution is basically S.M. Stirling's Dies the Fire, but with a few significant details changed (like that gunpowder still works)
I wondered about that when I read something about the series today. I read the first two books in Stirling's series, but found the cheerleading for feudalism, and the Competent Man character in general, a bit too much to take.
The Rassemblement pour l'Indépendance Nationale was founded around 1960 and seems to have gone from neutral to left pretty quickly, according to wikipedia and some of the sources for that wikipedia article. I guess people moved to it from earlier right-leaning groups.
The FLQ seems to have been on the left from its founding in 1963.
332: I gave up when things got all mystical and the various titles should have been changed to "Rudi And His Fuckin' Sword - Part N".
It's funny to see my son's name up in the top 5 for a lot of states, as it's not a very common name here (though has been creeping up and is firmly in the bottom half of the top 100 now, 12 years later). I didn't deliberately try to choose rarer names, which is good because my eldest two girls' names were around the 100 mark looking back, and are now way up in the top 50. Only Kid D seems to have not shot up the charts.
3 out of 4 of mine end in an -a sound, but it does make them sound nice when you say them altogether. My brother and I both have six letter names ending in n. My mum always claimed that if she'd carried on she had Roxann and Zoltan lined up.
Re museums, I was immensely amused at the New York Museum of Natural History to discover that not only do they give you free admission if you're in the US Army, Navy, Air Force or Marines, but also if you're in the Mossad.
I use the word "actually" so much it makes me quite cross with myself
You are probably secretly Russian. IME this is a real telltale with Russians speaking English.
I assumed she was a Margaux and changed it to Megan as an anglicization.
Margot, I think. La Reine Margot, but Chateau Margaux.
335: No one correct me, please, in my understanding that the diminutive of "Zoltan" is "Zuli."
(Bonus: "Boban" for "Slobodan." Seriously, former Yuglosavia?)
Let's not get distracted by blonde princesses with dragons and huge breasts....
No promises.
337. 'The "t" is silent, as in Harlowe." - Lady Asquith to Jean H.
324: Not to play too much on insulting cultural stereotypes, but I was amused to discover that the science teacher/father substitution was on the Country Music TV channel. But a bit of research reveals that it seems to be a common TV overdub. Still, I find it a bit of an unsettling reveal on perceived societal attitudes.
335: "Zoli" is how I heard it for the Zoltans I've worked with. I'm not correcting you, but merely adding anecdotal data which is right.
"Zoli" isn't as funny as "Zuli." Unless same were to marry Zooey Deschanel, I guess.
Yeah, a friend of a friend is Zoltan and she calls him Zoli.
4. Do you know how much money some of those big institutions waste on PR and Marketing? When I was an arts & entertainment editor, I'd get at least two large padded envelopes full of tapes & DVDs & slides & printed material EVERY WEEK! The local modern art museum has an annual budget that is the same size as the local Catholic archdiocese. That's a lot of money.
Speaking as someone who has engaged in PR & marketing for a a gallery, it isn't wasted money. Of course you got fucking hit up every week; there wasn't much else the gallery could hit by way of shows. I would imagine you took the envelope seriously?
Some of those weird names come from last names. I went to school with a girl named Eliz/a/beth Gan/non Hu/nt who was from some sort of Texas oil dynasty. She wnt by Gannon. Her Southern roommate also went by her middle name Rans/dall. I could imagine people dropping the first name and making the middle name the legal first name.
My name is a lot more common than it was when I got it, though I doubt that people have it quite the way that I do. I technically have two first names (not hyphenated) since I was named after an ancestor, and her middle name was added on to my first name, and I took her maiden last name as my middle name.
341: I've never heard it on TV the other way.
347: Oh, so you're the kind of person who watches Vacation on TV.
I'm a trifle disgusted to find that our only mutually approved girl's-name choice shows up (albeit in the also-rans) on the "every baby you know" list, despite never having been in the top 1000. Of course, that site equates "elite" popularity with the name's search frequency on their site; the number of children actually given these elite/stylish names is apparently very small. Nevertheless, if Beatrix trends, I am blaming HBO.
It's funny to see my son's name up in the top 5 for a lot of states
Yeah, Noah makes the top 5 in 20 of the 50 states, including North Carolina. It didn't seem all that common 7 years ago, but that was a false perception.
350: Thanks for linking that. I remembered there was a nice graphical tool, but could not find it.
That baby-name site suggests naming your next child Fagin if you already have one named Oliver. Fucked up, man.
Also, in the list Amber links, I am slightly surprised that the numbers for the "popular" names are often quite small. 5,000 just doesn't seem that high to me.
naming your next child Fagin
No teasing possibilities with that one.
353. Also, I question whether Maisie, Scout or Azalea are stylish by any normal definition of style.
353: Yes, part of the broadening of the name "spectrum". Eva, as an example, is shown as popular and was just inside the top 100 with somewhat less than 1/1,000 babies and the US is at about 4 million births per year--so 3,000 some children in a year.
353: SSN data is similar. 6,354 Zoeys! 307 Zuris!
When we named our daughter Jennifer -- in the mid-80s -- we really didn't think about how popular it was. And needn't have: because of circumstances that were not anticipated when she was born, she never had a classmate named Jen or any of its variants from K through 12. On her FB page, I see that she has one Jen out of 378 friends.
Even with a number 1 name, your snowflake gets to be special.
she never had a classmate named Jen
2357: I think the (US) sites are all picking up the SSN data. Try the graphical display apo linked in 350, it's great, trends over 100+ years. And it automatically wildcards* the remainder of the name so you can see all the 'M's or 'Eli*'s at once.
*The pay version looks very nice , you can stack any names up against each other.
The Name Voyager site is neat, but it doesn't appear to have 2011 numbers.
I thought you were still allowed to use names now and numbering babies didn't start until 2013.
354 In my first elementary school there was a kid named 'Gaylord'.
361: It does; you just have to mouse over the very right edge of the graph. Noah is #5 for 2011.
363: ~#500 for a few decades in the US, basically gone after about 1960 or so.
When we named our daughter Jennifer -- in the mid-80s -- we really didn't think about how popular it was. And needn't have: because of circumstances that were not anticipated when she was born, she never had a classmate named Jen or any of its variants from K through 12.
I'm probably being stupid, but what circumstances? Was there an incredibly infamous Jennifer in the late 80s?
I think I had two or maybe three Jennifers in my year at school. It's about as unique and rare as 'Kirsty' or 'Louise' among my age-peers, which is to say, not remotely rare at all.
Over/under for the year when "Artisan" and "Artisanal" break the top 10?
367: In the US Jennifer was number one in the '70s and close to that in the '80s.
366: I think the circumstances Carp is alluding to had something to do with the school or location or somesuch.
332, 334: Yeah, I mean, the later books have gotten a bit tedious. I'm still reading them (though not buying them new) just to see how it all turns out. Mostly, I like Stirling books as more professional fic, and/or self-parody. His rock-hard Competent Men are so over-the-top, it's absurd. Also, his diction gets so ridiculous. The idea that virtually every middle-aged white person would even be familiar with the word "dissed", let alone use it in every book, is just so cute. And of course, technodeath is not a brilliant new idea on Stirling's part. But it strains credulity to think that there is no connection there.
299: Did you hear that he died last year? Very sad.
345: That's just the thing though, I would have covered everything that I covered there anyway. I never looked at about 80% of the stuff they sent. And the other, similarly-sized arts institutions in town sent out far less material, but they got coverage too if I thought they were doing something that would appeal to students, or if they had programming that was important enough objectively. Perhaps those wacky envelopes swayed the people at the two big dailies, but based on what I heard from sources there, I doubt it.
I went to a PR training put on by one of the arts umbrella groups recently. When we went around the room telling why we were there, it was hardly surprising to find out that the people who could not get coverage at any price were the folx doing classical music for old people, especially if they were from out in the deep suburbs. Now of course, marketing is different. That's where, I think, it does make sense to buy a lot of ads on bus shelters or whatever.
Wherever I go in the Twin Cities, it's almost impossible to not meet someone named Kristen, Kristin, Kristi, Christine, Kjersten or Kersten. It's weird to think that, if you were a kid born this year, that would probably sound like the ultimate middle-aged lady name, as "Deborah" or "Linda" or "Janice" does to me now.
I blame Protestantism for the last names as first names thing. In a culture where name days are a big deal this just wouldn't work.
369.2 -- Right, school. But Jennifers shouldn't have been thin on the ground at either Bennington or Temple, and yet. She always had the option of going with her rarer middle name, and has played around with it a bit since an Icelandic friend started using it (in Icelandic) with her.
I think there's a whole lot of overthinking involved in the modern baby naming exercise.
Kristen, Kristin, Kristi, Christine, Kjersten or Kersten
My dating history includes two Danas, a Dawn, a Diana, a DeAnne, and a DeAhn.
([H]er rarer middle name from my grandmother.)
I think there's a whole lot of overthinking involved in the modern baby naming exercise.
Along most axes, totally. Along others, particularly likelihood of being a basis for teasing/bullying at school, not nearly enough.
374: you allowed your daughter to attend an institution censured by the AAUP?!
378: If you're Jewish, censured and no longer living.
371.1: His rock-hard Competent Men are so over-the-top, it's absurd.
He's old enough to have been dipped in the same cultural sea I swam in growing up. The competent man was just the first stage in one's prospective life one was supposed to reach. Well before I ever saw Heinlein's list I know damn well I was supposed to be able to take out a Nazi or Jap (sic) sentry with a Fairbairn-Sykes, rope a steer, dig out a bullet and disinfect the wound with gunpowder, never sit in a bar with one's back to the door, make a crystal set to listen to the BBC, and all that. Poetry and sonatas could come later, showing emotions much later.
Anyway, around sixty years later, I still at least know how to change a flat tire.
So funny, I tried my kids' names in that ssa site that gives you all the previous years' positions. So my son has always been high in the US and is now #13, whereas my girls who have names that are nothing far from the ordinary here, have 2 that don't make it into the top 1000 at all, and one that only got in in the last 4 years. Can't find anything similar for the UK, would have to do it by hand.
particularly likelihood of being a basis for teasing/bullying at school, not nearly enough.
People say that, but names were purely not a basis for teasing in my schools. I never understand that objection. Maybe that is because there were so many ethnic names at my schools that there wasn't anything to do but shrug and take each name at face value. I guess I have to believe that names can provoke bullying, but I have never seen that.
I went to elementary school with a kid named Thadeus. He was called "Thadeus the Fateus."
Oh, with name teasing? I went to a middle school where a girl named "Dung/ Ho" was student body president but *I* was the one picked on for having a foreign namer. So...sometimes you can't pick 'em.
It would have cleared up many issues if someone had explained to me in elementary school that, no, they weren't making fun of me for my name; they merely disliked me as a person.
387: "A lot of kids are embarrassed to have a weird name, my name was embarrassed to have me. Actually it wasn't until I got to college that I realized that no one else was named 'Notta'".
381: Could Heinlein do most of that stuff? For that matter, can most of today's SFF/thriller writers produce a brioche as easily as their male characters?
389: From the waistlines visible in Google, my guess is there's more familiarity with brioche than bayonets.
Anyway, for the perfect synthesis of the Post-WW2 to Sixties Competent Man, see the Paladin character in Have Gun -- Will Travel. He's far from Hawkeye Pierce.
Marge: Homer, if the baby's a boy, what do you think about the name Larry?
Homer: Marge, we can't do that. All the kids will call him Larry Fairy.
Marge: How about Louie?
Homer: They'll call him Screwy Louie.
Marge: Bob?
Homer: Slob.
Marge: Luke?
Homer: Puke.
Marge: Marcus?
Homer: Mucus.
Marge: What about Bart?
Homer: Hmm, let's see. Bart, Cart, Dart, E-art... nope, can't see any problem with that.
390: "Have Restaurant-Grade Range and Oven, Will Cater."
353. Also, I question whether Maisie, Scout or Azalea are stylish by any normal definition of style.
I don't know from Azalea and Maisie makes me think of French mice, but naming a kid Scout in the U.S. proves that the parents are whimsical yet deep.
(Obviously, if they were truly deep, they'd name a daughter Atticus.)
Or maybe Boo or Dill. And Harper has come out of nowhere in the last few years to be #54 for girls.
371: to be honest the only really effective thing I ever really did pr-wise though was flirt with the gay, blond, alcoholic, slightly too keen on the Nazis art critic from the press. (Oh god, and remembering to always brief the local papers. That was gold people, solid gold.)
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
I'm wondering whether you could run a Competent Man weekend (or indeed Competent Woman; he just says 'human being') that would teach you the basics of all of these, or whether it would have to be a two-week residential thing. How would the syllabus look?
Changing a diaper you can learn in twenty minutes. At a guess, three or four hours would be enough to learn some elementary HTML or Visual Basic. Cooking a tasty meal - one, specific, tasty meal - maybe an hour?
Also, "an unfoggetarian should be able to..."
One graduates with a gallant death?
398. Yeah, I foresee a problem with the lack of repeat business.
I think that would have graded on a theory paper only.
Although you could qualify in one of the other skills by comforting the members of the previous course as they died gallantly. Or you could practice your comforting skills on the hogs, rather like SF medics do with GSW treatment training.
"There, there. Just think of the tasty meal I'm going to make you into!"
Reverting to the question of kids named Scout, this illustrates the problem of picking names from fictional characters. They're stuck in time. Frex, Atticus would be an awesome name if you were an adult (male) trying to convey gravitas with your slightly greying temples, but it would be hell to grow up with. Likewise, Scout might be coochie for a kid the age of the one in the book, but ought to induce parricide in a 25 year old. Names are for life, not just for birthdays.
So my son has always been high in the US and is now #13, whereas my girls who have names that are nothing far from the ordinary here, have 2 that don't make it into the top 1000 at all, and one that only got in in the last 4 years
My two nieces have names that are perfectly ordinary, top 50 names in the UK, but both appear in the list in 13.
So my son has always been high in the US
It's the only way to get through the day.
You know, it's a pity that Ben Franklin is pretty much the only non-president from US politics to get any naming love. Where are all the Eagleburgers?
The amazing thing about the Scout surge is that it was likely started by Demi Moore and Bruce Willis back in the day. They have a Rumer and a Tallulah, too -- and yep, Rumer was for Rumer Godden. (Had that BBC series just run or something?)
A friend of mine married a French dude and lives in Paris -- no way could I sell her on Hippolyte or Hyacinthe. A shame, really.
Ben Franklin is pretty much the only non-president from US politics to get any naming love
Previous generations had a bunch of Otises and Warrens, n'est-ce-pas? And would there be more Franklins than Lincolns absent Roosevelt?
The Otises were almost all children conceived or born in elevators.
Is the egregious Limbaugh named after this guy or his son?
372: Funny to think that my great aunts Gertrude and Esther were given top-fifty names (Gertrude was #24). Gertrude has now fallen off the chart altogether. I wonder why, other than its diminutive, Gertie, being about the ugliest name ever.