I dunno about the 5 times conjecture. It seems reasonable. Lotta different factors.

One morning at my stock brokerage job, just a few of us were in the office, and one of the young women who worked in my pod said very loudly and clearly to our supervisor: "BRIAN! I would appreciate it if you would stop touching my butt!" And I was like, wow, hadn't expected to hear that. Especially since this guy's wife worked on the same floor. And he had never struck me as particularly creepy either. But that's how things are, I guess.

I was alone in a 6 train car once (at like 11am?) and a dude got on and sat directly across from me. And I thought, well, here comes his dick -- and YUP!
(Semi-relatedly, it took me a long time to get over the idea of not wanting to hurt someone's feelings. You know, the feelings of the dude who sits right next to you on an otherwise empty bus.)

You're a good mother, al.

Now go and comment on the "Lock up your daughters" thread.

Five times sounds about right to me. I didn't even take public transit all that much, but I've experienced such behavior in San Francisco, London, Athens, and New York City. And funnily enough, never in Chicago, where I took public transit regularly for a year. I'm still sort of mystified by that. Maybe tourists just look more vulnerable then bored office temps?

Maybe the midwest is really full of nice people?

Or at least shy perverts.

Hmm. Maybe the red line is filled with pervs? Because dicks have definitely been waved on the red line.

Maybe the midwest is really full of nice people?

...who nicely refuse to fund public transportation? (Maybe that's just Texas.)

Five times over a decade seems like a reasonable estimate to me. Good job on addressing the phenomenon directly with her.

8: Texas is not in the Midwest. Chicago is.

10: Texas is in the South, the Midwest, and the West. And maybe Mexico. Cause we're really big.

And don't you forget it!

Texas really isn't in the Midwest. Nor is Oklahoma.

Don't like it? Take it up with the census.

The Marches of Mexico. Like the Dakotas are on the Canadian Marches.

Five times in a decade seems a bit high to me (calibrating off 80s NY), but not wildly so -- when I've said similar things to Sally, I've said "There's a good chance this sort of thing might happen sometime."

Subways were so crowded when I was commuting to high school, though, that what I'm remembering is one or two unmistakeable incidents, and an awful lot of being crammed up against people in a way where I wasn't sure if I was being intentionally rubbed up against or if it was just that crowded.

Fort Worth is where the West begins. That puts Hurst, Euless, and Bedford in the Midwest.

I think 17 is confused about terminology, to wit: Midwest vs. Purgatory.

Fond childhood memory:

"Mom, if people from Dallas are called Dallasites, what are people from Fort Worth called?"
"...Cowboys."

As a kid I merged the category "Midwest states" in with "Great Lakes states" for some reason, and my brain still reflexively goes there sometimes. People mention the Midwest and I assume they're talking about one of the select few awesome states that border one or more of the Great Lakes.

Not on Bat-Reepicheep's watch, Telmarine pervs.

We're still talking about my Narnia/Batman fanfiction Narnia, right?

Bat-Reepicheep's

Die Fledermaus!

Texas is its own region, except for far eastern Texas which is most definitely just the South. The definitive regions are New England, New York, Mid-Atalantic, Coastal/Cotton South, Greater Appalachia incl Missouri, Florida, Louisiana, Texas, Southwest, Great Lakes-Upper Midwest (OH, IN, IL, WI, MI, MN), Great Rocky Mountain States excl Utah, Utah, Southern California, Northern California, Pacific Northwest incl Alaska, Hawaii. There, done.

Oh, I forgot "Great Plains." Now I'm done.

Is the groping and frotteurism more of an issue on trains and not as big of a problem in places where public transportation means mostly buses or am I just really oblivious to things that are unlikely to affect me directly? Probably both, but I'm thinking a bus might discourage perverts simply because getting away is more difficult.

Oh, and Iowa goes into "Midwest" but Missouri and most definitely Nebraska and Kansas do not.

The eastern thirds of Kansas and Nebraska are in the Midwest. The west doesn't start until you shift from mostly corn to mostly ranching.

25: Dunno -- I've only ever had trouble on trains, but my lifetime time spent on trains versus buses is probably 10-1. Also, I think buses are much less likely to be very crowded than trains; the times I've been groped, the train was packed enough that the guy was perfectly entitled to have been leaning on me, which facilitated the ass-grabbing. I can't think of when I've been on a bus with people smashed up against me like that.

I ride on buses that crowded several times a week, but the aisles are narrow and the stops very frequent. People in the aisles are in constant motion, so it would probably be very hard to stay close to any specific person without being very obvious.

Re gropers in Narnia and others stepping up to help, this incident has been all over my Facebook timeline recently.

It's odd. I have lots of female friends who've been sexually assaulted at some time or another, or worse. So I'm totally on team 'men do creepy shit around/to women' believer, but in a decade or more my wife has never reported anything of the like on public transport, nor my previous two long term girlfriends. All of whom I'm sure would have discussed it with me, even if purely to have a rant about shitty men, and vent some anger. They have mentioned leering creepy over-familiar workmates [although not groping, as such], but public transport, never.

I'm not sure if that's because public transport in Glasgow and Oxford [and London] is less freak-laden, or they've just been lucky.

Texas [...] we're really big.

But not where it counts. Therefore, guns.

On the other hand, I just remembered, I did once help throw* someone off a train who'd been creeping all over someone.

* encourage strongly to leave at the next stop, shall we say.

Groping on the subway is supposedly a big problem in Japan; anyway, a friend once told me that.

31: I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a local culture aspect to it; like, creepers know subway groping is a thing that happens, so they see subways as an opportunity. If it's not a thing where you are, creepers may be focusing their efforts elsewhere.

And there's also individual aspects of who gets targeted. I got immensely more hassling as a teen than as an adult, even in my twenties when I was still all dewy and youthful -- I got the impression that looking young and defenseless, as opposed to particularly attractive, marked you out as a target.

My facebook picture has me and James from Thomas the Tank Engine.

Wrong thread.

25: Five times between 12-20 sounds about right for my experience of busses in Seattle and Portland; counting direct repeated physical contact or cock sightings.

31. Mrs y once got groped by somebody on the up escalator at Kings Cross. He made a mistake there because she's a big, strong lass and she knocked him back down it, from near the top. But I don't suppose she's told me about more that three or four occasions in the time we've been together. Maybe Mrs nattarGcM looks similarly intimidating.

Well done Mrs. Y. The most I've ever done in response to groping is throw an elbow.

It's lucky you were carrying one at the time.

Good for Mrs. Y.

A lawyer in my office handles civil commitment hearings for sexually violent predators. I am somewhat opposed to the concept but some of these guys are brazen and are clearly going to keep reoffending if not locked up.

Texas is its own region, except for far eastern Texas which is most definitely just the South. The definitive regions are New England, New York, Mid-Atalantic, Coastal/Cotton South, Greater Appalachia incl Missouri, Florida, Louisiana, Texas, Southwest, Great Lakes-Upper Midwest (OH, IN, IL, WI, MI, MN), Great Rocky Mountain States excl Utah, Utah, Southern California, Northern California, Pacific Northwest incl Alaska, Hawaii. There, done.

You forgot about Strategic Bison Reserve.

That will only be a region when, as is inevitable, this tired nation forgoes its antiquated belief in the illusion of democracy and puts its faith in my firm but fair authoritarian leadership. Halfordismo is coming, but it's not here yet.

You forgot about Strategic Bison Reserve.

We are indeed reserved and this reserve does help us. But it is in our natures and not planned.

Sorry, misspelled my name.

Sort of on damn-those-are-some-formidable-ladies point, this little girl is amazing. The pictures with the elephant! The cheetah!

48 -- excellent, in 10 years she will make a fine member of the all-female Supreme Leader protection bodyguard strike force. Of to the Fortress of Learning with her! Sorry what were you talking about again?

My enjoyment of those pics is tempered by the thought that, although my friends and I ran around naked to the waist when I was a kid in Africa,people knew a lot less about the effects of direct UV in those days. What were her parents thinking? Never mind the cheetah, where's the sun block?

Never mind the cheetah, where's the sun block

One of the earliest Afro-Punk albums.

But maybe she's doused head to toe in sunblock. I mean, she's tan, but not crazy tan. (And I am consumed with envy. I want to grow up as Veldt Girl.)

41: I suspect my daughter will at least do that and quite possibly more, in which case I hope she has bail money.

OT: One is sure (lies! lies!) that contemporary music contains a lot to like in its plinky-plinky atonal glory, but one much prefers it when TWYRCL gets her Bach on.

53: Do you also refuse to eat anything without loads of sugar in it?

Not that sweets aren't nice, but one can only listen to so much Byrd or Mozart before something a little more bracing is called for.

53: An appreciation of Bach (among other things) worked for me.

http://www.unfogged.com/archives/comments_5326.html#392437

Comity on Bach.

Ahhh, Bach.

55: Byrd?

(I intended to post 58 as Radar O'Reilly, but sometimes it just doesn't work out that way.)

Byrd, Bull, Gibbons. They fought crime.

60: And that would have been great.

Do you also refuse to eat anything without loads of sugar in it?

She's here! Save yourselves! Hide me!

59: Byrd.

Mrs. K-sky recalls a man on the subway (New York in the early 90s) who would cry helplessly while he masturbated, wearing a sign that said PLEASE EXCUSE ME I HAVE A MEDICAL CONDITION.

Reader, she married him.

re: 40

I don't think so. I mean she's mentally fairly tough, and used to bossing people around and dealing with difficult people at work, but she doesn't radiate intimidation and is physically small and unprepossessing. My previous long term girlfriends both radiated a certain Glaswegian take-no-shit attitude. Not the attitude that they'd kick your ass, but more that they laugh heartily in your face. So I suppose not obvious targets. But not physically intimidating or giving off a vibe physically, I'd think. But hard to tell what signals would be creeps pick up on. I have no idea how any of them would come off to a total stranger. I certainly know people who I think come off as fairly tough customers who have stories, so how knows. Maybe pure luck.

66 made me laugh out loud.

68: Me too.

Dammit. Me three.

66 is so great.

A friend was groped on the subway by a salaryman in Tokyo, which I understand to be much rarer for gaijin than for Japanese girls/women, but it was late, he was drunk, she was young and cute... Anyway, she hauled off and punched him in the face, then berated him in Japanese as he lay there on the platform. He reacted with a kind of stunned admiration.

Byrd.

Another friend and former choirmate just wrote the Byrd volume in the OUP Master Musicians series, and I encourage Benquo and any other Byrd fans out there to read it.

66 goes in Moby's Unfogged Hall of Fame citation.

all-female Supreme Leader protection bodyguard strike force

I know it looks cool and all, but if i had to do it again I would have hired Blackwater.

all-female Supreme Leader protection bodyguard strike force
no, guys, remember, this is what I'm going to have to defend my island/swiss mountain fastness and then I'm just not letting any dudes in except my husband and brother. OK, cousins. I would probably let my dad in but he never travels, but maybe even I wouldn't. possibly some others on a case-to-case basis, like my bro's godfather, he's really a good person.

Just checked with the female offspring. She says only once, a flasher, and she laughed at him. She doesn't spend much time in subways, buses, or other places with dense crowds though.

as to bus v train harassment, the train does lend itself to certain things because you may end up seated trapped next to the guy between stations--this is how the DC red line masturbating guy worked--or may all be standing up in a crush between the doors. but you can get just as packed like sardines on a bus as you get on a NYC subway, and there's even more plausible deniability because the bus bounces so much. I think a huge problem now must be upskirt photography--I had a problem with people physically looking up my skirt on the metro elevators in DC (especially the massive one at Q st) but now there must be so much quasi-legitimade fiddling with phones...gah.

it's somehow way worse for me to imagine having this conversation with girl y in 2 1/2 years. not just because she's the baby, but she's such a fundamentally truly happy, generous-hearted, loving person. she doesn't really know what it's even like to be unhappy, except over physical pain or the rare offense that inspires an epic sulk. I don't want to tell her what people are like.

23: Texas is its own region, except for far eastern Texas which is most definitely ... blah, blah blah.

It really just comes down to which Canada you live in.

One guy doing some weird masturbating/ground humping thing in Boston common, not directed at me in particular. That's about it. Maybe unusually oblivious, maybe it's less common on non-packed rush hour trains.

I grew up in London. Was flashed at once on the train home from school, aged about 11, I think. Nothing else, in many years of train, bus and Tube-riding.

Also, has flashing gone out of fashion? Lots of my friends have seen flashers, but it doesn't seem to be a thing that happens to my girls' peers.

Nothing untoward has happened to any of my kids yet on public transport, either. Not that they use it that much, kid B the most I guess.

67. I'm sure you don't mean "unprepossessing".

When I was young and eligible I was on a tube train home and two very nice-looking Australian girls leaned over and said "Come and have dinner with us!" So I did. I think that they may have had a bit to drink. The one who then fell asleep at the dinner table certainly had.

On the other hand, wearing a kilt in the street anywhere south of the Wall just gets you a constant stream of shrieked prurient harassment. I mean, honestly. I don't go around asking strange women in the street what kind of underwear they are wearing, and I think they should extend me the same courtesy.

83:Of course kilts are hott, but that's just rude. Any such thoughts crossing one's mind should be kept to oneself unless otherwise specifically invited by the gentleman.

An (Irish) friend of mine attends an annual Burns night thingy here and he once recounted to me how on one occasion a Swedish female friend slipped her hand in at the side of his kilt* brushing her fingers lightly against his leg/hip/flank, smiled demurely and said "just checking". (The implication in the way he told it was that she was careful to avoid both front and rear areas, and that her fingers encountered skin only.)
*IIRC: having never tried it myself, I am assuming this is possible.

and Tube-riding

Even with such low-hanging fruit?

re: 81

Yes, I definitely don't. Brain-fart. I meant not intimidating. Appearance-wise, she's fairly prepossessing.

Agreeing with 84.1, even though the blue ribbon joke is one of my favorites, right up there with `one leg at a time' and `the thing's only set for a quart'.

87: what are these jokes?

88: the only one that comes to mind is
"Is anything worn under the kilt?"
"No, it's all in perfect working order."

The blue ribbon joke was made into a whole song containing the line, "Lad, I don't know where you've been, but I see you've won first prize."

Well, of course it's a song.

Blue ribbon: Man in kilt falls asleep under hedge. Passing schoolgirls cannot control their curiosity; delighted, leave a hair-ribbon. (?) Man awakens, sigs 90 to his meat-and-potatos.

Travellers see a pig with a wooden leg. This is so surprising that they find the farmer and ask about the pig. `That pig saved the whole family from a house fire!' `And did it lose a leg in the fire?' `No, but it's so special we're eating it one leg at a time. [var. A pig like that, you don't eat all at once.]'

Country cousin finds city cousin entangled with the milking machine. `Well, we'll feed you and fan you, and the thing's only set for a quart.'

Terry Pratchett could frame these as a film noir and tell them all as one story.