When linkmongering became a viable online business model?
Do extroverts feel persecuted?
I was only aware of introverts feeling vaguely left out because they live in a culture in which socializing or schmoozing are expected as a default.
Have the introverts told the extroverts to Check Their Extrovert Privilege yet? They totally should.
Extroverts have trouble understanding introverts but most introverts can understand extroversion because of drinking.
I blame tumblr, personally. Also neoliberalism. There's this obsession with classification and sort of "stacking" of identities (a misreading of intersectionality politics) as if the way that you explain yourself is to present yourself as the sum of a bunch of clearly understood and neatly defined personal characteristics, most of which are defined in opposition to other personal characteristics. It's very boring.
Also, some misunderstanding of difference versus privilege.
No matter how much Eve Kosofsky Sedewick people read in their queer theory classes, we still have tremendous difficulty with "people are different from one another".
(My god, it's been four years since she died, how is that even possible?)
5: The reason meetups have to be held in a bar.
I blame tumblr, personally. Also neoliberalism.
New mouseover text.
6: The "as a..." phenomenon in progressive circles. I understand the reasoning behind it, but did start to get ridiculous after a while.
"Speaking as a [capsule version of the speaker's life story], I think it looks like rain today."
Epistemology of the Closet was an awesome book. I thought some of the readings in the second part were a bit forced, but the first part was brilliant.
Extroverts are absolutely persecuted. They do not know how to listen, so are constantly being surprised, often in not-so-great ways, by the things that other people do.
10, 11: Extroverts who are afraid of clowns are the most persecuted of all.
11: Something other than Buzzfeed, who has a writer working this very moment on "25 Signs You're A Gen-Xer From Waukesha Who Went To Bloomington"?
13: They may all be from buzzfeed, but there are multiple lists bemoaning extroversion.
To get citations, we're changing our title to "15 Signs Your Osteoarthritis Is Likely to Progress" and sending it to Buzzfeed instead of a journal.
2: Frex.
Only the last item on that list involves feeling persecuted, and even that's pretty minor (people on tumblr occasionally make fun of extroverts.)
Everything else boils down to, "I wish I had more friends, or that my friends were more often on the same wavelength as me." Which, you know, is something that introverts feel as well.
In re Buzzfeed, do people think we're now at peak animated .gif? Is this a fad or is this just going to be a means of communication that lasts for the rest of my life? I have mixed feelings, I guess in principle I'm opposed but in reality about 30% of the time I'm all like [animated .gif showing someone being amused].
9: As a pop Warholite and pornographic apostle of the 1960s sexual revolution, I concur.
16: You're taking the OP much too seriously like only a total introvert would.
There was a book about the seekrit supremacy of introversion a year or two ago, I think, which probably raised the stakes. It might have tapped into a "geeks make bank because every aspect of geek personality is bankable" tendency in the discourse. I could look it up but blah.
I don't know why I think it's tougher for introverted women to succeed than it is for introverted men. I've never had any success as an introverted man. (90% joke, 10% thinly-veiled misery over own gender issues-- but sincerely, I don't know what would justify this occasional thought I've had, given that I have no way of comparing.)
||
Fucking despair, despair, despair. I wish this didn't upset me so much, but I accept that it does. I can't quite accept helplessness yet.
|>
New mouseover text.
I had that thought too (before reading this comment). The difference between me and LB: I actually made it the new mouseover text.
19. People got frustrated with the limitations of ASCII art as well :)
The real question is -- when did whining become the national pastime?
Life is suffering! Deal with it!
I wish this didn't upset me so much, but I accept that it does.
If you were my child, I'd sing you a silly operetta about the virtues of mental compartmentalizing.
3: As usual, Thorn speaks for a generation me.
If we didn't whine, there would be nothing to talk about.
I wrote something that became a mouseover text!!! Certainly a highpoint of my commenting here. (Or anywhere, really. Although once someone copied a comment I made somewhere else and put it on tumblr. They did credit me, so it was okay.)
Let's give them something to talk about.
There's this obsession with classification and sort of "stacking" of identities (a misreading of intersectionality politics)
My identities form a lattice.
sum of a bunch of clearly understood and neatly defined personal characteristics, most of which are defined in opposition to other personal characteristics.
Bitfield psychology.
NickS, the book 22 is referencing is called Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking.
35: As an oppressed introvert, I would like to but am unable to comment with a Zorn's Lemma joke now.
30: My vengeance will haunt you I'm just glad you're happy.
NickS, the book 22 is referencing is called Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking.
Yes, I've seen it, but haven't read it.
Aw, lurid keyaki. At least we don't have more than eighty years more to live through this. `Even the weariest river.'
(Apocalyptic fantasies vs. suicidal fantasies: extroverts do it like this, introverts do it like that?)
I think the gendered response to introversion is going to be differently damaging depending on what kind of success you need (duh); it feels *really* different to me in the South vs the West Coast, because gender (and other social) expectations are so different. Flailing around in the topic, introversion can make it hard to express caring or hard to express dominance, and either of those can be required or forbidden for either gender. Is that the kind of thing you were thinking? ...I think I got re-trained more in childhood than my brother did because wierdo girls disturbed people then more than wierdo boys*, but it has probably helped me adapt in adulthood.
*Post-Columbine, who knows?
I haven't either, but you asked what might be considered anti-extrovert, and I think that was probably the most visible. Plus lurid keyaki didn't give the title.
35: Yes. I think database everything is the material experience that makes that representation familiar and comfortable to us even after we've outgrown the toddler stage that demands it.
(`Process not just pattern!')
There has been a flurry of introvert self-assertion on my Facebook feed in the last month or so, followed by a couple essays in extrovert self-defense.
If introverts become all confident and assertive about their introversion, will they lose touch with their roots?
Back before the internet, introverts were, like, authentic, man!
Now they just hang out on unfogged.
Real, true introverts lurk on unfogged.
A lack of unstructured imaginative childhood play has left today's young adults with inadequate skills in the art of accommodating different interaction styles.
It's just going to get worse and worse and then some day low-lying coastal areas will be under water and won't that be a big mess.
46: The introverts support me in silence.
20: We should have a thread where every comment starts out "As a fan of Erving Goffman from my college days, I..." Neb, can you make that happen? Perhaps in honor of the Super Bowl?
45: That's right! Back before the internet, you could go sulk in your room, and it seemed quite probable that there was no one at all like you in the whole universe.
50: Also better for the touching of their roots.
20: Although I'm ambivalent about the "as a..." phenomenon, I wouldn't object if Paglia began every sentence with "As a massive douchebag...".
I think of myself as an introvert because I'm not very self-reflective. In moments of honesty, I realize I'm an extrovert who is very easily annoyed.
Quiet was the right one, thanks! Tremendously lazy even for me, sorry.
introversion can make it hard to express caring or hard to express dominance, and either of those can be required or forbidden for either gender.
That's pretty succinct, and you're right that it's a puzzle and situational above all. My considered opinion is that it's probably a liability for both sexes in roughly equal measure. I'm sure the penalty I attribute to introversion for women has more to do with gendered skews in the labor market in general. And with the belief among many of my friends that the only decent job for an introvert is to be a software engineer, which is what practically all of them, but not I myself, have done.
It isn't a stretch to imagine that both introverts and extroverts would be well-represented among lifeestyle journalists, and self-styled journalists, so the fighting may be partially spontaneous.
I think I got re-trained more in childhood than my brother did because wierdo girls disturbed people then more than wierdo boys*
I've heard that as well, though obviously my experience is on the boy side of things. Looking back on things, the people who were most active in re-training me (for which I am grateful) were a couple of smart, wierdo girls who were vaguely resentful of the fact that boys had less pressure on them to become socialized.
Those introvert lists remind me of what a dumb dichotomy it is and how much I want to shake 18-year-old me and say "Meyers Briggs is not that fucking great!" There are always two items where I think "well that is oddly like me indeed" and then a bunch that are basically right and then a bunch that sound mentally cuckoo to me.
Every time I took Meyers Briggs, I got a different set of letters.
(Sorry, that point about engineering was a total nonsequitur. Please disregard. Perhaps heebie can sing me an operetta about how proper compartmentalization can help avoid fragmented incoherence.)
Once I got "TNTP" but I think maybe that involved bad handwriting.
I started taking MB tests when I was 11 or so. They warped my tender little mind.
I think of myself as an introvert because I'm not very self-reflective. In moments of honesty, I realize I'm an extrovert who is very easily annoyed.
Moby and I are the same person.
I started taking MB tests when I was 11 or so.
And how similar to MoBy did you score?
62: Then you have more back hair than most women.
There should be a list of everything that's been mouseover text!
If you were my child, I'd sing you a silly operetta about the virtues of mental compartmentalizing.
Can I be kid #4?!
Yeah, well you've got rather pendulous knockers.
I'm never been able to complete a personality test. There are too many of me to fit into your silly boxes, impudent psychologists!
11: that list is very feminine-coded, extrovert-wise.
49: You should probably follow Nato. (And not just because he's like the hardest working commie in stand-up comedy.)
Relevant? This kind of thing usually drives me bats, but I got weirdly choked up at the end. Still puzzling out why.
Descending meets Before Sunrise?
72: Lovely. The romcom of "Before the Law."
the only decent job for an introvert is to be a software engineer
How can you tell an extroverted scientist?
They look at your shoes while they talk to you.
I don't know why I think it's tougher for introverted women to succeed than it is for introverted men.
Thinking about this, it reminded me of something I've been mulling over for a while. Apologies in advance for the long comment.
Temperamentally I tend to be an anxious person, and when I was growing up the transitions from one situation to another (HS to college & college to work in particular) made me very anxious because I wasn't sure how I would fit in or what would be expected of me. A big part of that nervousness was being an introvert and finding it stressful to figure out a new social situation, but beyond introversion it's just difficult to be in a position where you know that you have to ask for something, but you don't know what you're supposed to ask for -- when does one just follow the group, keep your head down, and figure that things will become clear, and when does one assert one's own opinion?
As I've gotten older, I've found that those feelings of anxiousness are mess less, and easier to deal with. A big part of that is that I have a broader range of skills and have more faith in my own ability to navigate complicated situations. Along with that I'm just more comfortable with my own quirks and neuroses and being myself in the world.
But, it recently occurred to me, that I have also gotten to the point in life where I am much less likely to be be in strange situations and have that sense of feeling lost. My work and life have been pretty stable, I mostly interact with people that I already know, and I don't have to ask for much or try to change my basic situation.
Going along with the thought was the realization that this is, precisely, a big part of what "privilege" means. It is not a coincidence that this feeling of having a stable life is one in which I am in the privileged group, and doesn't involve or require many interactions in which being any of white, male, middle class, or college educated are uncomfortable or place me at a disadvantage.
One of the reasons why I've grown more comfortable with being myself in the world is that my self is one that is accepted, pretty easily, in the world that I operate in. When I was younger I felt like a weirdo a fair amount of the time, but it's clear now that the barriers to me being accepted were much smaller than somebody coming from a minority background.
So, yeah, I believe that for anybody who naturally feels like it's difficult to fit in and socialize it's going to be even more difficult if they are in the minority in some way.
I can't tell if 76 is happy news or depressing news. Is it better to have no realistic solution at all or to have a completely realistic solution that we won't utilize?
Perhaps what I should have apologized for was the overwhelming earnestness, rather than the length. But it's a thought that I've been meaning to post here at some point.
78: I'm the opposite in many ways, and not just the earnestness. When I was younger, I was around the same people from 5 until 18 (and many until 22).
But, it recently occurred to me, that I have also gotten to the point in life where I am much less likely to be be in strange situations and have that sense of feeling lost. My work and life have been pretty stable, I mostly interact with people that I already know, and I don't have to ask for much or try to change my basic situation.
Going along with the thought was the realization that this is, precisely, a big part of what "privilege" means. It is not a coincidence that this feeling of having a stable life is one in which I am in the privileged group, and doesn't involve or require many interactions in which being any of white, male, middle class, or college educated are uncomfortable or place me at a disadvantage.
While privilege plays into it, this strikes me as off. The "new situation fear" is going to strike plenty of rich insecure shitheads, and there are plenty of poor people lacking opportunity with highly stressful lives, who nevertheless don't have much new-situation-fear to speak of.
While privilege plays into it, this strikes me as off.
Yeah, two thoughts.
1) An important part of the realization was that, for me, there's a lot of overlap between "new situation fear" and "situation where I'm worried that everybody will be looking at me strangely fear" in that both involve trying to figure out where the rules and borders are. It is also true that there's plenty of stress which isn't about figuring out the rules.
2) Privilege isn't everything. I have gotten more socially skilled and more comfortable with myself over time. I couldn't even guess what the relative weight of those factors is.
But I do think that privilege makes it easier in important ways.
Wouldn't you feel stressed and awkward around a group of day laborers, if you were trying to join the group? I don't know why I'm belaboring this point, but it seems like "I don't know the social norms" transcends the up and down directions of privilege.
Wouldn't you feel stressed and awkward around a group of day laborers, if you were trying to join the group?
Of course. I could imagine situations in which any of "white, male, middle class, or college educated" would make me feel like I stood out, and didn't belong. But, I'm arguing, privilege means that I don't have to engage those situations unless I want to. There's far less reason for me to go join a group of day laborers than there would be, for example, for a day laborer to go to an employment center to apply for jobs.
Or, shorter, the situations in which my attributes are going to put me at a disadvantage are both fewer and less likely to be crucial for social advancement than would be the case for somebody who was poor, female, or a person of color.
It's `having to ask' that makes me nutty. What the dominant group needs is available (goes without saying).
It isn't even having to ask. It is that this should be a conversation. "Fuck you, I don't do what you tell me", except that is part of the problem.
It isn't even having to ask. It is that this should be a conversation. "Fuck you, I don't do what you tell me", except that is part of the problem.
Also, unfogged has made me paranoid that any word with the be- prefix means I'm probably using it wrong.
89: I'm not sure why, but I'm suddenly worried that you didn't mean to do all that begetting.
Bejiving is not a city in China.
Off topic, but I notice that my commenting frequency has increased as the fact of the looming beginning of the semester has come to seem more and more real.
Dealing with stress through procrastination is not one of my more adaptive behaviors.
I blame neoliberalism.
Benile is not just a river in Begypt.
Wheee introversion. I should probably be out at dinner with all the awesome people I invited to visit for a little mini-conference-type-thing, most of whom I hadn't met before but wanted to meet because they work on fascinating stuff, but being around people all day made me exhausted so I retreated to eat at home alone.
79: Well, as it becomes more realistic, the chances increase that people will see the possibility of profiting from it. Beats scrabbling for a slice of the ever-shrinking oil pie.
Making fun of me is not becoming.
Also, am I the only one who can no longer use the word "becoming" without silently following it up with a dirty pick-up line?
98: Nope! Oh wait, silently? Then maybe.
100: Do you at least use your inside voice?
I'm thinking about NickS's thoughts and I've been thinking a lot lately about all the things that are tough in life if you're illiterate and yet know that's not the sort of thing you want to tell everyone about yourself. But not being able to read a menu or a street sign is a problem, and figuring out how to navigate that is a different sort of problem than fitting in in a new envirnoment, not that that's what Nick was saying.
I know I've told this story before, but going into high school as the miserable introvert I am, I decided that by graduation I'd have had an actual conversation with each of the 150 other girls in my class, and I managed. I'm not sure it did much good for me in the long run other than feeding into my OCD perfectionist tendencies, but I'm very grateful I made myself do that work then. Of course, now I've looked at my schedule and between cheerleading practice for Nia and open house at school and all the other things I have to do, I am going to spend the next 10 evenings and probably more in the company of others, and this is indeed hard for me but it's not supposed to be about me.
I mutter it under my breath. To be honest, it's mostly the eyebrow waggling that gives me away.
I decided that by graduation I'd have had an actual conversation with each of the 150 other girls in my class
There weren't 150 other people in my high school. This is what I was getting at when I said I wasn't used to having to adapt to new people as a kid.
I've become less worried about peak oil as solar has improved, but it's not a given that we will have the political will to do it, or that the profits over the massive required investment will be there if the middle class keeps on getting more impoverished. And, of course, this doesn't address the global warming Scylla to peak oil's Charybdis. As long as fossil fuels are cheaper, someone will burn them.
I can't tell if 76 is happy news or depressing news.
Well, it's not really news at all. We've known for a while that this sort of thing could in theory be done given currently available technology and resources. This paper just seems to have quantified one way to do it using fairly reasonable assumptions. The main problems are economic and political in nature, not technological.
Teo probably skims over the "middle east peace talk" portions of the paper also. Nothing really new.
That Quiet book is the first year book this coming year at my instituion and it makes me want to go on a rampage. I hate the book (because it is not well researched or well written, and because it is pandering crud) and I hate the geek pandering of having it as the first year book, and I hate the whole damn thing ugh.
That Quiet book is the first year book this coming year at my instituion and it makes me want to go on a rampage. I hate the book (because it is not well researched or well written, and because it is pandering crud) and I hate the geek pandering of having it as the first year book, and I hate the whole damn thing ugh.
That seems like sort of the opposite of the type of book that should be selected for that purpose.
"geeks make bank because every aspect of geek personality is bankable"
Over the last 0.5% of human history, anyway
BTW, traveling today and can't get a post up easily. Talk amongst yourselves.
O.K. I think maybe 113 implies that ned knows when humanity ends.
October 23, 4004 B.C. Everybody know that.
Wait. October 28 was when humanity started. October 23 was when the world was created.
Come the Singularity, geeks will be so bankable it'll make your circuits XOR.
||
What is the correct present continuous form of the verb "to cc"?
|>
I don't know what "present continuous" means. I'd just use whatever form of "copy" fits and not mention carbon.
I would understand "ccing" just fine.
Maybe someday I'll even relearn what verb tenses are called.
I doubt that you ever will have done so.
I've already relearned them once, for Spanish classes in college.
122: I don't just want to be understood, I want to be correct, dammit!
"Cc'ing" is what I instinctively reach to, but apostrophes on acronyms are on the way out, at least for plurals.
"with x, y, and z having been carbon copied"
redfoxtailshrub, I would be tempted to accidentally assign _Noise_ or _The Unwanted Sound of Everything we Want_ instead.
cc:ing is what I write, treating ":" as a character within a word rather than a punctuation mark.
Could go with courtesy copying, but I use CCing (and softly maintain that being a carbon-based lifeform allows me to say carbon copy).
I've already relearned them once, for Spanish classes in college.
Tenses are different in English and Spanish. Spanish has quite a few tenses and a couple of modal verbs; English has two tenses and a shitload of modal verbs. This was explained to me by a guy who teaches ESL: the first rule of English grammar is to forget any Latin you ever learned.