just trolling for feminists
Isn't the correct form "trolling feminists"?
If her fan base didn't contain so many young girls (including, to some extent, mine), I'd call it an interesting attempt to play with ideas about commodification. As it is, though, it is just irresponsible.
I wouldn't mind reading a bit more about lithe nudies.
"Do What U Want" (feat. R. Kelly)
Look out, Ms. Gaga! He wants to urinate on your body.
5: I don't like to call myself a hero, but, you know.
The "you won't use my mind" line really stands out on pop radio.
2
Is it LG's responsibility to cultivate her fan base, or is it her responsibility as an artist to put out work?
I'm asking because I'm surprised by how much I actually like her stuff--it seems pretty stand-out-serious-stuff against all the other pop music. I'd prefer she keeps doing this, rather than adjusting her music to the taste of ten-year old anyone.
I have to admit I've gone from finding her (Lady Gaga) mildly interesting and sort of liking a few of her first big singles/videos, to fairly actively disliking. The po-faced pronouncements, the evident seriousness with which she takes herself, her bullshit aspirations to 'art'. Her music is pretty pedestrian, and it doesn't live up to the hype she invests in it. There's nothing wrong with making fun pop music, but hers isn't [to me] particularly good fun pop music, and the additional layers of pretension detract.
I know some of her more po-faced pretentious stuff is basically conscious trolling but that doesn't rescue it for me.
The worst part for me is that she performed this as a duet with R. Kelly on SNL. R. Kelly!
Realizing that your favorite pop star does not share your values and/or is going off the rails is an important developmental stage for 10-year-old girls, especially the ones who will grow up to be sanctimonious and ditch their friends at the slightest sign of needless drama that might distract from finishing the lab report. I almost think it's a bigger problem that parents and others do occasionally tell kids that "good" celebrities are good role models for them, or that TV is poisonous but children's books (some of which are HELLA MESSED UP WHOA) are always okay. Treat everything with suspicion! I don't have any experience intervening in the lives of vulnerable kids subject to abuse, though, which is probably where the celebrity-cathexis/bad-messages-at-home combo is the biggest problem. This does not seem like a good song for them.
OH SURE, AND I'M THE ASSHOLE
Annie Lennox has a better voice, and she sings Christmas Carols rather than making herself an addled Madonna retread.
As far as the shitty message, the solution to bad speech is more speech-- surely a rumpled parent mumbling sentence fragments about general principles will outweigh a pop star on the TV.
"I was just a backseat driver in the car of love" is an actual line from the Chi-Lites smoothass song Stoned Out of My Mind
(To clarify the above: hyperbole and hysteria begins at "especially" and ends with "suspicion"; rest is basically sincere.)
I kinda want to go to bat for these lyrics. Sure they're fucked up in a way, but it's striking and memorable. Just because you don't agree with a particular sentiment doesn't lessen the value of capturing the sentiment well.
Come to think, this is probably on the album Sally just excitedly obtained. Art Pop? I think?
Parentally, I have total faith in my mumbled sentence fragments as keeping my children's psyches from harm. Or I'm sticking my fingers in my ears and trying not to think about it too hard.
Eh, don't feel bad, LB. My 6-year-old is reading Twilight.
The worst part for me is that she performed this as a duet with R. Kelly on SNL. R. Kelly!
Just after she collaborated in a performance piece with Jeff Koons. Jeff Koons!
At 6, I'd be more impressed by the literacy than worried about anything negative she's going to pick up from it.
Don't we all already know that lyrics to pop songs don't matter and don't affect behavior.
I mean I guess I have at some points been "going off the rails on a crazy train" but.
Watching Key and Peele the other night, we realized that Sally may have a future in the music industry as a hype man -- Peele's character is very much Sally when she's on a tear.
21,22: Be impressed until she decides to try Stephen King's It. I did that a little later, but not much, and it wasn't a good choice.
At a similar age, I picked up John Gardner's Grendel. I can still make myself shudder just by thinking about the cover.
I read Joseph Wambaugh's "The Choirboys" at age 9 or so. The plot, as I remember it:
- Cops drink constantly
- Cops have sex with fat women
- Cops bully and make fun of each other
- Cop commits suicide because of peer pressure
- Cops beat up people for no reason
- Racism
I started reading the crime section of the local paper too young.
Is this a Scared Straight type exercise, do not let your children do what I have done here in the house of the rising sun, just maybe yyou can still escape a fate of internet commenting.
I vividly remember reading a book about a woman with multiple personalities when I was 9 or 10. It detailed all the sexual abuse required to have your personality split 12 different ways.
I read a similar thread when I was seven years younger than I am now.
30: That last comment about displaying symptoms in alphabetic order is brilliant!
6: Have you introduced her to the work of Tamora Pierce?
Aren't these lyrics mostly pro-pron feminist? I guess I'd have a stronger case if it were "I'll do what I want with your body", but isn't the story: dudes a chump, she's not gonna let him control her, but sure, go ahead, pound away, that sounds fun.
26: I had been forbidden a variety of books as a child, ranging from The Lord of the Rings to Bleak House and the Phillip Marlowe stories, all on the theory that I was not mature enough to understand them.
I read the Phillip Marlowe stories in secret when I was 11ish, and Red Harvest was really upsetting. I remember thinking that perhaps my parents had been right.
Although actually given that I also read Clockwork Orange, Lord of the Flies, a whole bunch of Stephen King and a lot of miscellaneous Anthony Burgess other than Clockwork Orange around that time - oh, and a lot of Harlan Ellison - good old Dashiell Hammett was pretty lightweight. Honestly, there ought to be some genre theory which encompasses mid-century creepy-white-dudes-with-reactionary-ideas which could encompass Burgess, Golding, Ellison, Phillip Larkin, Donald Davie and maybe Mailer. (I mean, I like quite a lot of Davie and Larkin because I have terrible taste in poetry, and Ellison doesn't think he's a reactionary, but still.)
There is some hilarity in how my parents forbade me Dashiell Hammett but actually bought me a Stephen King anthology. They are very unworldly and did not, I think, realize how much gore and uneasy-making material was therein.
They would never, never have let me buy pop music at Sally's age, though. Or watch regular television. I still remember when they realized that I was watching One Day At A Time reruns and told me I had to stop.
29: I think I read that same book. I also don't remember what it was called, or who the author was. I do remember it was quite harrowing.
You guys aren;t thinking of Sybil are you?
33 Seconded. Do the parents here really feel that a message of wanting casual sex with some dude who they think is hot but don't want a romantic relationship with is something that they should warn their daughters about? There's a broader issue of the prevalence of sexual (self) objectification in pop culture and the general objectification of women but much of that is an aggregate problem with many specific instances, like this one, pretty innocuous in isolation.
35: I bet the book was called When Rabbit Howls. Another book that was not forbidden by my parents, but oh, it should have been. Way too much sensationalizing of sexual abuse. Also, apparently, total nonsense on the scientific front.
Oh, and it wasn't Phillip Marlowe; it was the Continental Op. The Phillip Marlowe stories were much less traumatizing.
The African Queen was the most harrowing of the Phillip Marlowe stories.
At 6, I'd be more impressed by the literacy than worried about anything negative
Honestly, I'm pretty laissez faire about it. I did draw the line at Carrie, which she saw a trailer for and has been obsessed with seeing ever since (quote: "I think Carrie doesn't have a good relationship with her mother."). But she is indeed crazy off the charts with the reading level.
Just because you don't agree with a particular sentiment doesn't lessen the value of capturing the sentiment well.
and
Don't we all already know that lyrics to pop songs don't matter and don't affect behavior. I mean I guess I have at some points been "going off the rails on a crazy train" but.
There are too many of you all being annoying for me to keep quoting. The point is that she's trolling feminists and just trying to get a rise out of people. Not that the lyrics are actually going to make young girls go off the rails on a crazy train.
Stop being annoying.
The African Queen is nothing like The Big Sleep. Moby lied.
just trying to get a rise out of people
That's essentially her entire career, isn't it?
I suppose so. Here the shtick grates.
"Young girls" is throwing me a bit. I may be confused, because I don't listen to any of this, but Lady Gaga isn't primarily marketing to pre-teens, I don't think -- it's not like she's Miley Cyrus as Hannah Montana. If she were, I'd get feministy judgier about appropriateness. But as an adult pop star who, even if she's appealing to teenage girls, isn't making children's music, I come down sort of where tkm does, with maybe a larger helping of "Eh, it's pop music."
42 to 47. Will you all stop accusing me of clutching pearls.
Not exactly doing that -- I'm just thinking that this doesn't even seem like enough to call trolling.
49-50: You have to admit she's kind of into evil clowning, though.
Sure, that's her schtick, basically, as far as I know.
Was wondering if it theoretically possible for the troller to be "dead" in the way that the author is now dead*. Think not since authorial (or curatorial) intention is an essential part of the definition.
*And therefor heebie is *right* if she genuinely feels trolled**.
**Unless she's trolling us, in which case 42 and 47 are well-played.
As long as nobody's accusing me of getting my panties in a twist over these lyrics. For some reason that's the most irritating misreading of the OP.
Look, if you're going to slut-shame and not expect to be called out for it, I don't know what to say.
54: The annoyance being that she is attempting to troll you, but that she has in fact not done so successfully because that would manifest itself as some sort of response to the provocation?
Obviously the trolling has been successful, since heebie made this post.
56: Yes! but no! Except where I come out winning.
If the OP isn't intended to express some concern about Gaga's messaging to young girls, it's pretty poorly written.
That slutty slutbag better keep her cougar paws off my daughter's snatch I'm not being trolled.
getting my panties in a twist over these lyrics
I assumed that was just to keep the chicken legs from falling out.
I find the song deliberately obnoxious, because she's fucking with feminists. She's not successfully fucking with this feminist, but solidarity.
The point is that she's trolling feminists and just trying to get a rise out of people.
So, she's just trolling feminists, not trolling you. Because... you're not a feminist? That's odd. It's also odd that the OP starts off by saying "I feel like I'm being trolled by these Lady Gaga lyrics, right?" Since that's not what you're saying at all, apparently.
Go ahead and say "63 without seeing 62" right?
62: Ah, I get it... she's just trolling the stupid feminists. The OP wasn't clear on this point.
Stupid feminists? Of course not. The shrill ones.
Which feminists is she fucking with, heebie? Are you actually aware of any?
I'M NOT SHRILL AND THERE'S NO CHICKEN IN MY TWAT.
67: I'm pretty sure there are colleagues of mine that, if they saw an article calling out this song, would vehemently post it on FB. There sure were a lot of people who hated on Miley recently, and this seems a lot clunkier a provocation.
You should loop 69 over a pounding electronica beat. And maybe wear a meat dress.
I am the combination KFC and Twat-o Bell.
The Heebie Paradox:
"Attempts to annoy me, even if unsuccessful, annoy me."
That's a fair summary. Feminists are easy punching bags. (Don't go for the fruit.)
69: I'm trying to picture the circumstances under which someone would successfully explain to some earlier version of you how you would come to type that sentence (attributed to a pseudonym) in a place where it would be relatively easily accessible to literally billions of people (many of whom could not read it, admittedly).
Or to me that I would respond to it. "Vannevar Bush's Memex ain't the half of it, little boy."
I'm generally touchy as all get out on feminist stuff, but I'm still not seeing exactly what set you off on this one -- clearly, it's pro- I don't know what to call it, maybe not totally empowered or self-actualized or whatever sex. But what makes you think it's meant particularly to get a rise out of feminists, rather than oh, virginity pledge types?
Aren't the lyrics just kinda watered-down Peaches?
Well, if she were talking about having a sex drive and wanting lots of sex, she'd be trolling the virginity police. But as long as she doesn't want them to do whatever, then I think the evangelicals aren't exactly being trolled.
Maybe she just needs a bosom for a pillow.
The R. Kelly part of the song is pretty unambiguously sexist, though I don't think it's exactly trolling feminists:
I could be the drink in your cup
I could be the green in your blunt
Your "pusha" man, ya I got what you want
You wanna escape all of the crazy shit
You're the Marilyn, I'm the president
And I'd love to hear you sing, girl
Do what I want
Do what I want with your body
Do what I want
Do what I want with your body
I mean, unless "trolling" means "peeing on."
When did we start saying this song was about casual sex? I thought it was clear that it was about her relationship with the media, and thus she is saying "Sure, commodify my body."
This actually goes along well with another part of Art/Pop where she says "One second I'm a Koons, then suddenly the Koons is me."
Poly Styrene struck a similar pose, only with more bitterness and irony. I think it is a legitimate statement for an artist to make. I suppose I shouldn't complain that her fan base skews young. If Caroline starts listening to this song, I can give her a little talk about commodification that she will ignore because everything I say is stupid and boring
Really the main problem here is that the only worse artist she could have picked to team up with would be Hirst.
Because I'm pretty sure that's what R. Kelly wants to do.
Even if it were about casual sex, "you can do what you want with my body," isn't exactly the most empowered approach to it.
"One second I'm a Koons, then suddenly the Koons is me."
StabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStab
One second I'm a Koons
So racist.
Sort-of on the topic of pop music:
Architecture Could Use Some Help From Kanye West
Our very own Armsmasher doing the Slate-thing, trolling the architects.
First there is a pop star, then there is no pop star, then there is.
This actually goes along well with another part of Art/Pop where she says "One second I'm a Koons, then suddenly the Koons is me."
I thought she was saying "Kunst".
The beginning seems to be about media, but once the R. Kelly bit starts up it's hard to argue it's not about sex. No reason one song can't be both, but either way, most people are not really listening to the lyrics in any detail and aren't going to get much more out of it than "do what you want with my body," which in isolation sounds a lot more sexual than it does like a commentary on the media. Whether it's feminist, or trolling, or whatever is above my pay grade.
She's alluding to the folk-song lyrics --
My body you may imprison,
My heart you can't confine
Methinks the 'you' of the song is polyvalent
It would have been better if Kelly had just echoed "you can do what you want with my body," and then Gaga would say "No, no, you can do what you want with my body," and then Kelly would echo "You can do what you want with my body," and then Gaga would say "Dammit, we can't both be submissives here."
Speaking of pop music, did everybody but me know about stuff like this? Is that why people seem more annoyed with them than I figured they should be based on the music?
Definitely polyvalent. One target, according to the fan sites, is a high-profile blogger that's basically made a hobby out of stalking her, getting or sourcing unflattering photos, and then making fun of her body. "Then you print some crazy sh*t that makes me wanna scream" is early in the song, and so specific to the media that it never occurred to me to feel trolled.
The R. Kelly verse is definitely meant to be ambiguous. Sure, it can be read as sexist or sex-referencing, but I heard it literally: let me give you an escape, a chance to relax away from the spotlights. Possibly doing things that the media would LOVE to have pictures of but yo! they're not invited!
84, 91, etc.: wait, did I not actually post that comment about thinking the line was "One second I'm a Künstlerin, suddenly the Kunst is me"? Goddamn it. I was so happy about that line. I was picturing her switching between Die blaue Engel and Nina Hagen on her preferred multimedia device. I don't know what a Koons is, unless it's her pet name for de Kooning.
36: It was way way worse than Sybil. I think Sybil only has one sexual abuse part. This has like 10. Amazingly, I remembered that the woman's name is Kit Castle. Here's the book.
re: 95
Heh. Like Kool Keith? With Princess Superstar?
re: 96
I don't know. I always hated their music pretty much solely for the music [although I liked their last single].
99: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Koons