Lindsay Lohan wasn't actually writing about the various public shenanigans. I think the difference lies in trying to use your personal life to make art and definitely not doing that.
Asking, dubiously, whether Arnold is an artist would get one scourged off the Internet if one's Internet-shaped audience applied the same standards as it would to the same question about Lady Gaga, Rihanna, Jennifer Lawrence and other female popular types. Have the late '90s-to-mid-oughts debates about "rockism" and "authenticity" been so soon forgotten?
Internet-shaped audience
Is this a euphemism for fat?
Lady Gaga, Rihanna, Jennifer Lawrence
An extremely strange grouping.
Well, he's not Uta Hagen, but he managed the transition from competitive bodybuilding to Hollywood with a thick accent, not easy. I think that he's an interesting personality, one more test case to follow in my basically unsuccessful attempts to think about fame. For a while, I enjoyed reading Cintra Wilson for context.
I'm genuinely torn about snickering at Cormack McCarthy's ex-wife's problems (I didn't want to link to some vulture site-- "Jennifer McCarthy alien holster" will point you to the terrible articles). Lots of authors prefer to keep their personal lives private, lots of authors are humorless and write from on high. Probably it's giving in to a low impulse to chuckle at this one.
So many child stars are just unmitigated tragedies as adults. Michael Jackson, McCauley Culkin, more. Being a modal TV-watcher just seems incompatible with compassion so often. But I want to understand the culture I live in, ignoring the TV completely seems wrong as well.
No course of action seems right with regard to an, no, to our often perverse but genuinely popular low culture.
Also all three of them are strange comparisons to Arnold. I'm thinking Britney is maybe more apt?
Always? I mean, when we're not talking criminal acts.
Lady Gaga, Rihanna, Jennifer Lawrence
I suppose there is the fact that they can sing and, in some cases, write songs.
Lots of celebrities gain great career benefit from their personal problems making the news. I have no idea if Lisa Kudrow regrets not having a high-proile celebrity marriage fall apart but I'm sure she's pondered the idea.
What's your favorite Jennifer Lawrence song, text?
Is this a euphemism for fat?
I meant "shaped" in the sense of "educated," but, you know, David Lee Roth's remark about rock critics' fondness for Elvis Costello* has its place when we turn a critical eye on the oeuvre of the Austrian Oak.
* He wears those stupid glasses and asinine hat all the time, if running into him by the pet day care on 13th Street (there was a French bulldog puppy in the window; don't judge me) is anything to go by.
6. Definitely not, Flip chose women who exercise reasoned self-control over their public image and who seem to have a fair amount of willpower. Britney seems pretty different, isn't doing much in the way of making decisions.
"Exercises reasoned self-control over their public image and has a fair amount of willpower" is not a very good definition for "artist".
Britney Spears is still subject to the guardianship order giving her father (!) control of her affairs.
11: I couldn't say, but if she ever did a cover of Don't Stand So Close To MeI'd probably listen to it.
14: It's not a bad definition of "star," though, and one of the tenets of the pro-pop side of the "rockism" debate was that stardom is an artistry itself. Former NYT pop music critic Ann Powers* once wrote that posing for magazine covers is as much a part of a popular artist's job as recording or filming.
* Whose writing I, to be blunt, hate.
I was trying to think of somebody who got famous for one thing and then transitioned into being famous for another thing without necessarily being traditionally suited for or good at it.
Lady Gaga transitioned from songwriting for other people to performing but she wasn't famous for songwriting and anyhow aside from looking a little weird she's pretty much got the pop star thing down. Rihanna was discovered as a fifteen year old and has always been somewhat prodigal as a singer. Jennifer Lawrence, well, we all know about her music career. None of them seem like a good match for Arnold, who got famous one way (bulkiness; charisma) and transitioned into being much, much more famous another way (charisma; saying words on camera). Britney seems like a closer match.
18: well right, so, John McCain: artist?
So, I have to be the one to bring up the vaginal firearm.
19: Also became Governor of some state through charisma and saying words on camera.
14: Yes, who would suggest that? The distinction I would like to make lies between an artist choosing to use personal issues in making art, and an artist not choosing to use those issues, which are then publicized by someone else. Notice that in both cases I am using the word "artist".
14. My dad would agree with this sentiment 100%, but he's not all that well adapted to this century. I would prefer to understand what the people around me care about even if it's not my thing.
Where's the boundary between celebrity and artist? Elvis? Tupac? Oscar Wilde?
Flip, I don't understand 12. Mr Roth intended to insult both critics and Elvis Costello by pointing out the physical resemblance. Nobody looks like Arnold on the outside-- judging from his career trajectory and now-public accounting of his behavior, he's a clever egomaniac. I don't think that everyone who enjoyed Terminator is clever.
Nobody looks like Arnold on the outside
There's a whole subculture of people who look like Arnold on the outside and pick things up and put them down in between small, high protein meals.
Re: the boundary between celebrity and artist, I think that those are two descriptions which are neither mutually exclusive nor necessarily correlative. You can be an artist who is a celebrity, or you can also just be a celebrity, or you can also just be an artist.
20. Sort of, I think. Jim Traficant, definitely. What about Abe Lincoln, who was pretty handy with memorable prose.
There ought to be a category inferior to "subculture." I really don't think every hobby or style of dress qualifies. I suggest "miniculture."
I was trying to think of somebody who got famous for one thing and then transitioned into being famous for another thing without necessarily being traditionally suited for or good at it.
Kim Kardashian.
A gazillion Neighbours stars who went on to pop careers, though to be fair, Kylie Minogue was both suited to and quite good at it.
Similarly, Big Brother contestants doing anything but Big Brother.
29: sure, those are mostly good examples, although I don't know what the "other thing" is for Kim Kardashian. Isn't she still doing whatever it is she started out doing? General purpose famousing or whatever?
Jennifer Lawrence, well, we all know about her music career.
She's the round-faced drunk girl in American Hustle, right? I didn't know she had a music career. Wiki doesn't think she does.
I was trying to think of somebody who got famous for one thing and then transitioned into being famous for another thing without necessarily being traditionally suited for or good at it.
Ronald Reagan!
He wears those stupid glasses and asinine hat all the time
I used to see Ric Ocasek in Union Square all the time. He looked exactly like Ric Ocasek.
I'm pretty sure Jennifer Lawrence can sing. No?
29: sure, those are mostly good examples, although I don't know what the "other thing" is for Kim Kardashian.
The sex tape. I'd never heard of her before that.
He looked exactly like Ric Ocasek.
That's a pretty harsh thing to say.
I mean, presumably she's still having sex. But not in public.
Appropriately enough for the Arnie comparison: Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson. Also Jessie Ventura.
Carl Weathers was supposedly talking about running for governor of some state.
Also Jessie Ventura.
I sometimes think that someone should form a political party whose entire platform is to see to it that all remaining cast members of Predator get elected governor of a US state.
The internet says that was a Saturday Night Live joke. Too bad.
Look I'm trying to be friendly again but that's going to come to a quick end if I keep getting made fun of for my ignorance of Jennifer Lawrence's career.
BTW, how on earth did Cormac McCarthy's ex-wife's domestic troubles make it into the news? Seems pretty low down on the celebrity pecking order.
Just a slow news day?
46: I think that story would have made it into the news regardless of celebrity.
Maybe I'm missing out. I can't consume every piece of media, though I would like to. What's the best of Jennifer Lawrence, Tweety? Where should I begin? The one with Eddie Murphy and the singing?
46: I think it was just the luridness of the facts.
46. It's a fairly humiliating and also frankly funny police report of a domestic dispute. The tenuous connection to fame helped.
OK, I gave in and googled "Cormac McCarthy's ex-wife". Pretty bizarre.
Cormac McCarthy's ex-wife arrested in Cormac McCarthy-like scene was the best headline.
50: humiliating why? she's crazy and violent?
oh, the gun in the panties. that always killed it for me.
Jennifer Lawrence was in this Parachute video. That's almost like singing a song.
Ms Lawrence sings in the shower. She has a penchant for classic rock anthems-- "Wild Thing", "Jump", "Breaking the Law", that kind of thing.
Oh, she's the girl from the Hunger Games. Hooray, I didn't know something.
I can also say that I've probably never listened to a Parachute song all the way through. I did see the first Hunger Games.
Text must be three or four people at different computers sniggering at each other. That's the only explanation.
The date of birth on the probable cause statement is way too young to be the ex-wife. (It's not just a transposed digit or two: DOB on the statement is Aug 22, 1987, DOB of the ex-wife is June 17, 1965.)
The story of McCarthy's ex-wife was actually funny, but I wonder whether it really should be publicized. What makes it funny? Her ineptness? I could live pretty happily in a world in which I never knew about her.
I was trying to think of somebody who got famous for one thing and then transitioned into being famous for another thing without necessarily being traditionally suited for or good at it.
I'd say Jim Brown, but if you define his second career as "glowering" rather than "acting" he was certainly suited for it.
60 -- I'm no poet, but I don't think I'd use the word "ineptness" to describe intercourse with a (presumably) loaded gun, while saying 'who's crazy, you or me?'
Jane Asher was a child star (age 6) and was/is famous/accomplished for so many other things it's ridiculous. "Three best selling novels"
I thought she picked up a law degree, but it doesn't say so here.
the Lindsay Lohans and Demi Lovatos would probably be better off if their personal lives weren't so open for consumption, and the loss of knowledge by the public isn't particularly dear.
I'm going to take an obnoxiously Slate-like position and argue, at least half-seriously, that stories about the way people melt down are useful for non-prurient reasons - or maybe I'm arguing that prurient interest gets a bad rap.
People learn about the world through stories, and it's possible to usefully ponder the distinction, say, between Lohan and Cyrus - but that's only possible if we have those stories in the public domain.
Not contrarian enough? How about this: People rubberneck at traffic accidents in part because they learn something useful about the physics of high-speed collisions. The visceral knowledge that they obtain in this fashion is a genuine supplement to the intellectual knowledge they get from reading about the same incident in the newspaper. (And the newspaper account also has utility and shouldn't be disparaged.)
62: I am a poet. But I also wouldn't use that word if they had actually been having intercourse as you seem to think they were.
How about this: People rubberneck at traffic accidents in part because they learn something useful about the physics of high-speed collisions.
#Slatepitch: How Wrecking Ball is like eyeballing wrecks.
64: I wonder if you'll feel the same way when it's your life being ruined, or your car on the side of the road.
I thought this thread was actually going to be about Ronan Farrow. I feel the need to form an opinion on the topic, but I don't know what opinion to have.
I am notoriously and admittedly bad at faces. But he certainly looks a lot like Frank Sinatra to me.
People rubberneck at traffic accidents in part because they learn something useful about the physics of high-speed collisions.
And, then if they bump into a car while rubbernecking they learn first-hand about the physics of low-speed collisions. Win-win!
Part of the pleasure of dedicating myself entirely to foreign media (movies, tv) while staying away from foreign gossip sources is that I remain completely ignorant of my favorite artists personal circumstances.
To a degree, since East Asian visual media, fueled by the Chinese market and state subsidies, is becoming remarkably regional rather than national (Korean tv series are overwhelmingly popular in Japan) I am starting to lose track of even what passports the artists carry.
I thought this thread was actually going to be about Ronan Farrow. I feel the need to form an opinion on the topic, but I don't know what opinion to have.
My opinion is "It shouldn't take until age 25 for people to start making jokes about how the blue-eyed son of Mia Farrow might be the son of Frank Sinatra".
I never saw any pictures of him before this year.
I wonder if you'll feel the same way when it's your life being ruined, or your car on the side of the road.
You'll remember that Mike Dukakis was vilified for his televised debate statement that he'd still be against the death penalty if his wife were raped and murdered.
I remember seeing him on some talk show some years later - maybe Charlie Rose? - and telling the interviewer that he still thought that was a pretty good answer. I do, too.
That said, I'm certainly comfortable with the idea that people who are differently situated have different interests, and that those interests will inevitably conflict.
Huh. I just got a popup on the NYT site advertising A&E, showing several of their shows' characters in turn, and the very first was one of the Duck guys. Not the father, I think.
Ronan Farrow looks more like the young Gore Vidal than he does either Sinatra or Allen, but I'm damn sure he's not Vidal's kid.
Person who got famous for one thing and then transitioned into being famous for another thing without necessarily being traditionally suited for or good at it. As it turned out, she was rather good at it.
||
The anime series I watched this weekend had three episodes set in an animated Hopperland. That exact image, with a character from the show, and a little more despondent mood, was held for a minute. All the exteriors, and incidental people and general mood (exhausted?) were both homages to Edward Hopper and the 30s. It was fucking gorgeous. I was jumping up and down. OMG! that's Hopper!
(plus a little Frank Lloyd Wright, office interior)
Same anime had a political group with a shouted rally slogan:
"Shin Shin Sei Kyuu Sai"
"Soul! Body! Truth! Salvation! Vengeance!"
Notice the first two words. You really pretty much have to think in kanji to get Japanese.
|>
65 -- The police statement indicates that she was penetrating herself with the gun.
So, politicalfootball, I guess the analogy would be that you are in favor of ruining everyone's lives, including your own, just as Dukakis was against the death penalty in every circumstance? Maybe this is why we have an analogy ban?
79: The probable cause statement says that she had "inner course" with the gun, according to the boyfriend. No, I'm not particularly impressed with that.
77.2 makes me wonder if Tina Fey will ever run for office.
82. If Al Franken, why not Tina Fey?
As so often with lw's questions about celebrity culture, it seems like there's an interesting question being asked but I can't quite figure out what it is or how to answer it.
Anyhow, the one area that is absolutely unforgivable IMO and has really gotten out of control in the past 10 years is the obsession with non-celebrity small children of celebrities. Whatever the interest in star x you shouldn't have rows of paparazzi looking to sell shots of her four year old daughter and blocking the entrance to a preschool.
10 is also basically wrong in my experience, though of course once a personal problem comes out you need to manage it. But (almost) no one wants their dirty laundry aired for the sake of it, barring a few true bottom feeders.
80: What an eccentric reading! In no sense do I favor lives being ruined, nor did I say anything that could be plausibly construed that way.
I don't know if it's a medication issue or what, but as you are obviously aware, you're slipping off the rails again.
As with your previous episodes, I think there's a lot to be said for just ignoring you, but truthfully, I'm really interested in knowing what your problem is. As I've said, I think examining this sort of thing can be instructive.
And would we really be helping Ms. Lohan by ignoring her, or would she just keep escalating until people paid attention?
The probable cause statement says that she had "inner course" with the gun, according to the boyfriend.
Hey, the Slatepitch was right. We've got a new eggcorn out of this pointless prurience!
Tina Fey already has my vote. Now we just have to get her to run for something.
Unless you think Hillary Clinton can write a joke, don't let Fey run for president.
And would we really be helping Ms. Lohan by ignoring her, or would she just keep escalating until people paid attention?
I think the latter. My sense is that for kid stars fame is often an addiction.
89 was me. Also should be a comma after "stars".
Tina Fey already has my vote. Now we just have to get her to run for something.
I think she's from Allyson Schwartz's congressional district. Drop her in there now that AS is gunning for the senate.
Sorry, not the senate, the gubernatorialship.
Tina Fey already has my vote.
I like her work a lot, but her writing is short on compassion. I'm sure she'd be better than Rand Paul, but I'd be concerned whether she would be one more establishment Democrat.
To 84, the lurid McCarthy story made me question why I felt, well, if not actually ashamed, definitely not proud of being interested, in contrast to other celebrity curiosities. I'm pretty confused about celebrities, honestly not sure of how to think about them, either as agents or as spectacles. I'm curious about just how far out my attitudes are, so I'm asking. What are more contemporary examples of people retiring early after a career as adults and staying private, the way Garbo did?
93 -- there are near-infinite examples of relatively famous actors involuntarily retiring and staying private, but there are plenty of recent voluntary examples as well, or of people who turn down roles to stay more private. Let's see . . . Bridget Fonda comes to mind. But of course retirement doesn't just mean more privacy, it also means loss of income.
there are plenty of recent voluntary examples as well, or of people who turn down roles to stay more private. Let's see . . . Bridget Fonda comes to mind.
For some reason Anne-Marie Martin comes to mind.
Oh, hey, the other thing-- if Carp is suggesting in 59 that this is just the wrong person, not McCarthy's ex-wife, wouldn't retractions have already appeared?
96 -- That was just an observation. It's a pretty big mistake for the police officer to make.
81 -- I still don't understand your use of ineptitude here. What could she have done more skillfully in this situation that would have impressed you?
Bob, which anime series has pseudo-Hopper settings? Hopper is IMO a genuinely great painter. But part of what makes him great is his figures, how small they are in the paintings and how forlorn the implied narratives usually are. Twilight art deco isn't enough to be Hopper-esque.
64 is what I suspect in darker moments, and that idea really bothers me. Celebrity hijinks played knowing that there's an audience about are a poor substitute for social reality, it's like learning about nature at Disneyland.
97.2 -- OK, it was inept to call 911, then try to get the police to forget the whole thing, only to end up getting arrested herself when the cops believed the boyfriend's story. But that's no part of why this thing has gone viral -- it's just the lurid nature of the story.
89: There's also a collective action problem here. We can ignore Ms. Lohan and her ilk, but that doesn't mean everybody else is going to. To reiterate the question in the OP:
When are an artist's personal problems better kept private?
The artists themselves are the only individuals with any meaningful input into this. I can ignore Lindsay Lohan all I want to (and I actually want to ignore her quite a bit), but this doesn't have any meaningful impact on the question of whether her problems are going to be kept private.
98.1:Well, I know your only purpose, as revealed by the rest of the comment is "Bob is full of shit and knows nothing about art or anything else" so fuck you in advance. You could have just asked, without the implied skepticism.
Very spoilery and I hesitated, but shouldn't wreck the series. Not you have any intention of watching it. Suggest sound off
"Forlorn" is indeed the mood portrayed. And more, in a way that made me rethink Hopper.
And here is a page of Hopper Images in case all you knew was "Nighthawks"
I wouldn't characterize his figures as all that small.
Seriously, I'd like to know how Dukakis' position on the death penalty bears any relation to your position on enjoyment of other people's misery, politicalfootball. I think that's something you can expect someone to ask of you, politicalfootball, since you put it in question.
Or you could just apply any old negative adjective to my comment and call it a day. Or a year, if you'd like.
As for Ms. Lohan, I doubt she wants your attention. She probably just wants to pursue her professional life. I think she's a pretty good actress.
99: Finding a way to threaten her boyfriend which didn't result in a newspaper article portraying her as a psycho bitch might have not been inept.
It also wouldn't be amusing at all. That is why her ineptitude is what makes the article amusing.
What are more contemporary examples of people retiring early after a career as adults and staying private, the way Garbo did?
Barry Sanders comes to mind. As does J.D. Salinger, though he's not a contemporary.
Earlier I was confusing Hudson with Lawrence. How silly of me!
Text must be three or four people at different computers sniggering at each other. That's the only explanation.
It's a lot like that, except that we're all typing with the same pair of hands, and we hate each other.
It's a lot like that, except that we're all typing with the same pair of hands, and we hate each other.
At least there's something we can all agree on.
Yes, it adds much to agree with someone else's self-deprecating joke.
@text
A genuinely good movie with Jennifer Lawrence is Winter's Bone. I also liked Silver Linings Playbook.
By the by: A Happy New Year to You All.
Oh I rented Winter's Bone but fell asleep during it, which should not reflect on the quality of the work. When I get tired I fall asleep. I should rent it again and then not spoon with anyone. Happy New Year, Tiny.
I may not have enjoyed Silver Lining Playbook because I don't like most Oscar bait, but it's fine if that's your kind of thing. Also, The Hunger Games: Catching Fire was the top-grossing movie of the year, which is interesting because it's the first one with a female lead since The Exorcist, so, you know, feminism or something.
I saw The Hunger Games: Catching Fire and I thought it was fine. But going to see it -- even if I had remembered the lead's name this morning -- would say little about my outstanding feminism.
