Re: Guest Post - Responses to Ferguson

1

I'm not less depressed by the violence.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 6:32 AM
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It's really important to rank these things.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 6:34 AM
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Good for Mary Engelbreit. Also that picture is about seventy times better than any of her usual stuff,


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 7:09 AM
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That wasn't cut off mid-sentence; the comma was supposed to be a period.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 7:10 AM
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I never saw High Fidelity.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 7:10 AM
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3 was my thought too.

Also, the copyeditor in me is compelled to say that I meant to type "mild-mannerED" in the OP.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 7:36 AM
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What white backlash?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 7:38 AM
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My rough transcript of the key part of the radio interview:

Interviewer: Was that something that's been on your radar for a while? I mean, did this incident sort of open your mind to that, or has this been in the back of your mind...?
Engelbreit: No! I've experienced it. My sons when they were little had black friends, and they were stopped continually, you know, for driving in a car with some black kids, and only the black kids were pulled out of the car and frisked.
At one point we had a good friend of ours, Vincent ____, who is a black man, living in our carriage house. And he was stopped every week, until finally my husband went to the police station and said, "Look, he lives here. You're going to have to come to grips with that. Stop stopping him."

Her sons were apparently born in the early '80s, so they would have been teenagers driving in the mid- to late 1990s. She doesn't give a timeframe for the other incident.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 7:49 AM
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Oops, 8 was me. I don't know why my name didn't show up.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 7:55 AM
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The Rockwell article is good about the role Steinbeck's account played in perceptions of the events, including Rockwell's own. Hugely popular then, he's been so out of fashion for so long that references to what's good in his writing have to be pitched according to the age of the person you're talking to. To a literate person over 60, you merely need to refer to the passage; much younger, and he's just a name, if that.

A writer, a skilled describer of what had been witnessed could describe what he couldn't transmit, such as what the white women said. If a tough guy like Steinbeck was shocked, you could just imagine.

The article also points out the peculiar cultural vulnerability consumers of nostalgic images have when the trusted creator of those images, like Rockwell or Engelbreit, shows they feel otherwise.

It's all part of a package of associations, of course, so familiar we take it for granted, and in fact often go so far as to assume that nostalgic images have conservative intent, which they may not.

I'm not the first to suggest that many more modern styles and artistic movements should be more compatible with right-wing thought. Perfectly accceptable to more sophisticated rightists, that's not going to fly with the broader public. To be fair, the taste of the less-conservative part of the public is not that different, which made Rockwell's images effective.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 8:01 AM
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I won't link to it, but Adam Serwer found in a pro-Wilson Facebook group a painting of an officer with American-flag-pattern angel wings, his arm around a crying girl with teddy bear, with decorative text "The difference between us and them".


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 8:11 AM
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Wow, how gross.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 8:24 AM
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On the I Heart Ferguson effort:

...Chris Shanahan, who was part of a group selling T-shirts with the "I ♥ Ferguson" logo. "I think [the T-shirts] became something to help certain people in the community remember that they still like this community despite certain things that have been shown on TV."

There's the point, sailing over his head. Apparently the idea that some people might like or dislike a community based on their actual lived experience doesn't enter in.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 8:26 AM
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11 is amazing.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 8:32 AM
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The article also points out the peculiar cultural vulnerability consumers of nostalgic images have when the trusted creator of those images, like Rockwell or Engelbreit, shows they feel otherwise.

Exactly. People feel a very personal sense of betrayal. I'm always amazed when people will explicitly voice a sentiment like, "I wish they could just go back to being normal," or "Why do they have to bring all this political stuff into it?"


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 8:32 AM
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Statement read by the We Are Darren Wilson group.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 8:39 AM
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15: I can still vividly recall the conservative butthurt over Bruce Springsteen when people realized that he wasn't actually a big Reagan fan.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 8:39 AM
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In the statement linked inn 16, the juxtaposition of "we respect each individual's 1st amendment rights" with "[c]all or write Governor Jay Nixon and demand that this bias stops now" is kind of precious.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 8:49 AM
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This is what democracy looks like:
http://crooksandliars.com/2014/08/hartmann-how-long-texas-changes-open-carry


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 8:51 AM
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Facebook removed the post where she explained her artwork? They really need to work on fine-tuning those algorithms.


Posted by: parodie | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 9:15 AM
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18, 16 Is there a transcript? I think I need a new prescription, that type is too small for me to read.

16 And by "amazing" I mean "appalling", of course.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 9:15 AM
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21.2 to 14, not 16.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 9:16 AM
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FB is completely conservative assholes in terms of which posts are deemed offensive and are removed.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 9:18 AM
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All of this just confirms to me that I should move forward with my plan to get lots of money so that I can own some cops. It's not even unethical -- unlike women or black people, cops actually like being owned.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 11:02 AM
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21: Barry, transcript here.

I especially like "We will no longer live in fear."


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 11:12 AM
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I like the reverse-Spartacus here:

You want my name? My name is Darren Wilson. We are Darren Wilson.

Instead of protecting Spartacus, they're using his name to protect themselves.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 11:14 AM
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This recent situation in which a guy waving around a machete is subdued (but not shot) by officers in London (UK) has been rolling around my head. It actually lines up really well with the claims in this article from McSweeney's, in which the author argues that what is needed is more and better training in conflict de-escalation and non-gun options for cops. Seems very sensible, but ...maybe there's something I'm missing?


Posted by: parodie | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 11:23 AM
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Yes, the Reverse Spartacus is a nice touch.

Do these people even know who Spartacus was? Asshats.


Posted by: delagar | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 11:30 AM
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I'm afraid Wilson's zimmermanization is completely inevitable, whatever his private thoughts and reactions might have been. Just as Zimmerman was a kind of cultural creation, and alternative narratives might have emerged and in fact did emerge, but had no chance to establish themselves. And it would be incredible if he were able to resist the support of those who claim to be rallying around him, however disastrous in the long run, and fickle that support may be. He'll be grasping at straws.

A skilled defense team, if he gets one, can help enormously with this, but can't fully control it and can't control him, whoever and whatever he is.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 11:41 AM
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I am Asshatacus.


Posted by: Opinionated Asshat | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 11:41 AM
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The joke's on them, because that guy in the Spartacus movie isn't really Spartacus. It's some dude named Kirk Douglas.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 11:47 AM
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29: Yeah, I'll be deeply surprised if Wilson is convicted of anything. Zimmerman's acquittal didn't result in rioting; frankly, I hope Wilson's won't either.

What will be a problem is if the grand jury doesn't indict Wilson in the first place (apparently word on that won't come down until at least October). I have a general sense that for many people, trust in the judicial system remains, and the call for justice -- without which, no peace -- entails not specifically putting Wilson in jail, but putting him on trial.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 12:00 PM
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I have a general sense that for many people, trust in the judicial system remains

You mean...black people? In Missouri?

Apropos of nothing, would you be interested in some investment opportunities in East Coast infrastructure?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 12:16 PM
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33: Yeah, I hesitated over that statement for some time. Nonetheless. Do you really think that people calling for justice are asking for a lynching (jailing in this case) of Darren Wilson, tout court; or are they asking for a trial, with exposure of the evidence and all that?

I've been going on a couple of times here about the disgraceful small town system of garnering significant city funds from traffic stops and court fees: the judicial system is complicit in city funding mechanisms. That can and should be changed. I don't in any way think the judicial system is trustworthy, in case you were wondering.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 12:44 PM
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Apropos of nothing, would you be interested in some investment opportunities in East Coast infrastructure?

Dude, stay out of my territory. Don't you have enough rotting bridges and transformer stations of your own in Rustbeltsylvania?


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 12:48 PM
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There's a general degree of trust in A judicial system, in theory, yes, but not THE judicial system as it presently exists.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 12:50 PM
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35: Wrong state.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 12:51 PM
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37: West of Tanglewood, America is just a vast sea of abandoned wheat factories and meth-dealing local politicians to me.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 1:06 PM
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At a rustveltsylvsnian (phone typoed, but I'm gonna go with it) meetup, someone (JP?) explained the secret behind Natilo's name and how it reveals which flyover state he was from, and I was shocked that I has never realized it before.

More on topic, a very public trial would be a good thing. But a non-conviction might not go well. I suppose a lot would hinge on jury selection. Presumably the trial would be impossible have in ferguson or even St. Louis county.

(By the way, I'm in the land of European aboriginals. The bit where all the street signs are in Gaelic. Stupid single-track roads.)


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 1:16 PM
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39.1: Newbie.

Nice write-up on the variety of questions and issues raised by Ferguson.

Number 3: Do we talk about race or do we talk about class? strikes me as under-discussed. And number 4: Ferguson shows that "small," close-to-home government isn't necessarily best .. marks an important piece by Paul Waldman.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 1:35 PM
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Actually, I am perpetually shocked that anyone with more than my 1/64th part African heritage has even a shred of faith in the judicial system. People are peculiar.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 3:27 PM
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Well, looks like I've gone and broken the blog again.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 4:31 PM
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We took flight to find whiter blogs.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 4:40 PM
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Looking for outer ring blogburbs


Posted by: turgid jacobian | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 5:21 PM
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It's hard to find a whiter blog than this one, though.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 5:23 PM
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Do we talk about race or do we talk about class? strikes me as under-discussed.

Count yourself lucky. Perhaps it's the Internet, but I have the distinct impression that decently-educated white people won't shut the hell up about class these days.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 5:24 PM
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It's hard to find a whiter blog than this one, though.

Even the background is white.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 5:34 PM
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I have a general sense that for many people, trust in the judicial system remains.... Do you really think that people calling for justice are asking for a lynching (jailing in this case) of Darren Wilson, tout court; or are they asking for a trial, with exposure of the evidence and all that?

I imagine they're calling for a just trial. That doesn't mean they expect one.


Posted by: remy | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 6:05 PM
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25 Thanks Parsimon.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 6:26 PM
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Bald black man handcuffed, arrested, and imprisoned in Beverly Hills because he "fit the description" of bank robber. He's well-connected enough to have called a friend to get him a good lawyer ASAP, and...read the whole thing.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 08-24-14 7:17 PM
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50: Oh, Christ. Because there's, what, maybe two or three black men, max, who are both tall and bald? (I did myself finding at the end: oh shit, I hope they didn't give him the parking ticket.) Dude has an amazing set of accomplishments, though.

Is there any website or other resource that tries to aggregate these injustices? I know these happen all the time, but I think I (and other ignorant white folk) need to be viscerally reminded that they happen all the time.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 2:20 AM
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Forgot to mention, very wide-ranging, multi-generational, multi-racial, multi-gender discussion of Ferguson on the bus one evening last week. It went in more "creative" directions than the ones here at Unfogged ("autistics are strong"), but in general sentiments were similar. I did not join in, big pussy that I am.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 4:57 AM
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52: What does "autistics are strong" mean--generally and in this specific context?


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 5:54 AM
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Sort of on topic, kind of: British police can get very creepy.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 5:57 AM
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52: NPR: For Parents of Young Black Men with Autism, Extra Fear About Police.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 6:16 AM
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Has anyone seen the "orbital fracture" thing -- right-wing blogger Jim Hoft apparently posted a stock image, which people are cheerfully reposting as an actual image of Wilson's uncorroborated injury -- surface anywhere outside the right-wing media? It's been repeated by the usual suspects as well as mostly-usual suspects like the Daily Mail.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 6:35 AM
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55: I think the person was referencing this specific shooting from several years ago.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 6:54 AM
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There are 746 black people in Beverly Hills... and they mean to keep it that way.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 7:09 AM
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It has showed up in a few places, but CNN says it didn't happen, so it's a bit sketchy. And it seems like the rumor started with Jim Hoft which doesn't exactly make it seem more reliable.


Posted by: MHPH | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 7:09 AM
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58: The African-American population of Vermont is a whopping 1.2%. Where that 1.2% may be in Vermont, I cannot even guess.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 7:27 AM
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60: It's probably African immigrants and refugees at least as much as native-born African-Americans.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 7:33 AM
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New Hampshire is 1.1% black. But when I was near Keene this summer I saw some black people. Like two, or maybe three of them.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 7:56 AM
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62. They were probably on vacation.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 7:58 AM
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60: Only 136 black undergrads at University of Vermont.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 7:59 AM
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Look, if a strong police presence is necessary to protect the Bijan-styled Bugatti Veyron, high-end children's hair salon, and regional headquarters of a modeling agency in that neighborhood, so be it. No reason to fault the BHPD.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 8:07 AM
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the BHPD

That's the police department that chases, on foot, elderly English comedians who have accidentally intruded upon young women changing clothes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 8:24 AM
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That's the police department that chases, on foot, elderly English comedians who have accidentally intruded upon young women changing clothes.

Next time... on BHPD Blue...


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 8:37 AM
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66,67 Great, now I've got a BHPD Blue theme music earworm.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 8:40 AM
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And it seems like the rumor started with Jim Hoft which doesn't exactly make it seem more reliable.

Oh, yeah, I assume it's a lie. I was just wondering if any legitimate news sources bit on it; looks like Hannity is as close as it got.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 8:51 AM
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They had a streaker's riot, and things got a little rough
And the coppers all discovered if the collars matched the cuffs
FOX anchors were heard to mutter, "Oh, what utter bliss,
A slap-up streaker's riot is a thing I'd never miss.
I'll be there in a heartbeat, though I've nothing good to wear
Okay, Benny Hill Street, let's all be careful out there.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 9:00 AM
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That's great.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 9:01 AM
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/21/darren-wilson-had-an-eye-bone-fracture-after-scuffle-with-michael-brown-family-friend-says/


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 9:01 AM
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But they were cautious about it.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 9:03 AM
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70 fantastic!


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 9:12 AM
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56: As I said somewhere on the earlier thread, it showed up in the Cleveland Plain Dealer, at least online (albeit with a lot of "a source told Fox News" and "Fox News reports" disclaimers thrown in). You would know better than I would where that falls on the media spectrum.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 9:17 AM
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60ff: Vermont was the whitest state when I was growing up there. Maine is supposedly even whiter, but on a recent visit I was amazed at how racially diverse Portland has become in the last 12 years or so since I was last there.

72: The reporting of toxicology results in the Michael Brown shooting, speculative or otherwise, is enraging. Most pot users who have had to submit to a drug test for work know that you need to clean out for three weeks. If he had THC in his system, it's irrelevant, and it's phenomenally irresponsible for news organizations (especially supposed standard bearers like the Washington Post and the NYT) to mention it.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 9:22 AM
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You would know better than I would where that falls on the media spectrum.

"Semi-competent". But not, I think, intentionally a right-wing propaganda outlet.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 9:28 AM
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69: ABC News got close but held back on "fracture" (I assume they talked to the same source).

A source close to Wilson told ABC News that during the struggle at the patrol car, Wilson suffered "a serious facial injury."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 12:57 PM
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Given everything else they've done to date, I have a hard time imagining the FPD wouldn't leak a photo of Wilson's face if it looked bad.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 1:03 PM
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I saw 5 black people downtownn just yesterday.

A Zydeco band from Louisiana.


Posted by: CCarp | Link to this comment | 08-25-14 1:09 PM
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Bobby Seale remembers when how and why he and Huey came up with "Off the Pig"


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08-26-14 2:55 AM
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11 You won't link it but go over and check out the top post at LGM right now.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-26-14 6:04 AM
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CNN claims to have an audio recording from the shooting in which you can hear the shots being fired. First six shots, then a pause, and then four more.


Posted by: MHPH | Link to this comment | 08-26-14 7:10 AM
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and then four more

That was to stop him from becoming a witness zombie.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-26-14 7:12 AM
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On the other St.Louis-area shooting, police claimed 2-3 feet away, looked bit longer but hard to say from the video. Jake Tapper* went with crew and measured it as ~16 feet.

*Tapper has been comparatively decent on this and other stories recently, but not sure if I'm ready to forgive him his defense of the legitimacy of Fox News in the face White House criticism back in Obama's first term.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-26-14 8:12 AM
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On that one, as I recall, the police story also included him holding the knife up in the air in a threatening way right up until the point where the video (showing him doing no such thing) surfaced.

I mean, I was initially willing to grant that, yeah, that shooting was probably sad but justified/mostly-reasonable, but the fact that the people defending it felt the need to tell a bunch of lies about it when defending it is the sort of thing that makes me reconsider that judgment.


Posted by: MHPH | Link to this comment | 08-26-14 8:18 AM
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Presumably the store got the two cans of energy drink back, so justice served.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-26-14 8:23 AM
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And in a completely unsurprising turn of events the family of John Crawford were finally allowed to view the video of his killing and disagree rather strongly with what the police have been saying about it/the event.


Posted by: MHPH | Link to this comment | 08-27-14 7:47 AM
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