Re: The Yelp of Invisible Cities

1

Ha, Chancery is pretty good.

I was trying to put my finger on what is annoying to me about my local paper's architecture critic, and I came up with two things. First is the fact that she lards up sentences with so many adjectives and modifiers that they are genuinely cumbersome to read.

Second, and more to the point, they overwhelmingly feel like I (as a stand-in for readers in general) am not the audience. She's apparently writing for people she knows and wants to think well of her.

The same thing with restaurant reviews. There should be a Sam Goldwyn behind every reviewer to make sure that they are actually speaking to the community they serve. Otherwise, ech.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09- 7-14 7:45 PM
horizontal rule
2

I dunno, eventually the restaurants are going to catch on that the diners with Sam Goldwyn standing behind them are reviewers.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 7-14 7:47 PM
horizontal rule
3

Every restaurantgoer will be issued his or her own personal Sam Goldwyn.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09- 7-14 7:50 PM
horizontal rule
4

There should be a satire on "Howl" called "Yelp" but I'm not the one to write it.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09- 7-14 8:35 PM
horizontal rule
5

That was me.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09- 7-14 8:36 PM
horizontal rule
6

I only read the restaurant reviews in the local free weekly.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 7-14 9:16 PM
horizontal rule
7

Aton, somewhere, was crying, whimpering horribly like a terribly frightened child. 'Stars -- all the Stars -- we didn't know at all. We didn't know anything. We thought Stars in a review were something the experts decided. The walls are breaking down and we didn't know we couldn't know and anything -- '

On the horizon outside the window, in the direction of the City, a crimson glow began growing, strengthening in brightness, that was not the glow of a sun.

The long night had come again.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09- 7-14 9:21 PM
horizontal rule
8

Surely this has been linked here before. One of my favorites.


Posted by: Merganser | Link to this comment | 09- 7-14 10:17 PM
horizontal rule
9

10: Chowhound.


Posted by: Bran Muffin | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 4:59 AM
horizontal rule
10

Shorter kr: Life sucks because other people.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 5:06 AM
horizontal rule
11

In London I tend to use food or local blogs. There's a blog which reviews breakfast joints and another that did mainly chippies, although the latter stopped posting a couple of years back.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 5:09 AM
horizontal rule
12

Chowhound seconded


Posted by: Benquo | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 5:16 AM
horizontal rule
13

It's been several years since I went to restaurants regularly, but I found Zagat to be pretty good. But I usually found three or four places that sounded good on Zagat, and then checked for recent, longer write-ups on Chowhound. Chowhound by itself is a lot of maddening lists of Go here! without any description or explanation as to why.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 5:26 AM
horizontal rule
14

I find yelp pretty damn unhelpful--either high-maintenance dickheads looking for an excuse to complain about the TERRIBLE service, or undiscriminating homers who say they love crap. Zagat seems like a much better crowdsourcing model.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 5:39 AM
horizontal rule
15

Ah, yes. You have to discount suburban reviews appropriately. A 25 suburbs is not a 25 city. A suburban place is good only if you see something like "worth the trip" in the review.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 5:45 AM
horizontal rule
16

I use Urban Spoon, but pretty much purely as a check against awfulness, per 16.2. Beyond that, I've developed a fairly keen ability to guess, based on menu and (when available) website/FB page whether a place will be worthwhile. But a lot has gone into developing that ability, so it's not especially transferable.

6 is very wise.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 6:28 AM
horizontal rule
17

The curve for Chicago suburbs is a big one - I apply the same curve to places much more rural. Just go to the city for food unless you're looking for something very particular. I kind of hate Zagat reviews. They rarely have clear menu suggestions, and there's little way to determine whether you'll show up and find a mom & pop diner or a scene-driven locally sourced small plates communal tables type of place. Instead, it's a "delicious" "food-oriented" "restaurant" that both "locals" and "travellers" "just adore."


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 6:29 AM
horizontal rule
18

Actually, have I complained here about the critic in the main local paper? She's new(ish), young(ish), and drives me nuts in so many ways. Big picture, she's an absolute starfucker of a critic, all about this visionary chef and that life-altering cocktail program overseen by so-and-so. She came here from DC (not sure where she's from originally), and she's made an obvious effort to suss out the landscape here (which is great), but she thinks she understands it better than she does, which is annoying (she'll pronounce with great authority but not actual correctness).

But what fucking kills me is that her prose is awful. Clunky sentences, inept phrasing, inapt metaphor, and a clumsy hand at evocative detail. There have been pieces so bad that I couldn't actually get through 900 words or whatever. They've added emphasis to the food/dining section, so it's not that no one at the paper cares about what she's doing, yet somehow this crap makes it into print.

Meanwhile, I feel churlish about all this, because it reads so readily as professional jealousy. But I never minded any of her predecessors, one of whom was also kind of crummy.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 6:40 AM
horizontal rule
19

Now that I think of it, the bad critic is probably trying to match the style of the reviews sent up in Tables for One (a style I dislike), and doing it badly (which no one likes).

Oh, and I left this one off my list: I don't think she has a particularly discerning palate. Some of that is de gustibus, of course, but I simply don't get the sense that she's judging food very well, mostly because she esteems markers of good food more than actual good food.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 6:45 AM
horizontal rule
20

No having a discerning palate has saved me so many thousands of dollars.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 6:48 AM
horizontal rule
21

They were advertising a sandwich at Arby's I was going to ask you about, but now I don't recall which one.

The pulled pork at Firehouse Subs is quite good*, but there's not one near me, so it doesn't really matter.

*superb by chain standards, and pretty good by genuine BBQ standards


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 6:51 AM
horizontal rule
22

They were advertising a sandwich at Arby's I was going to ask you about, but now I don't recall which one.

I'm guessing it was the roast beef sandwich.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 6:52 AM
horizontal rule
23

I haven't been to Arby's in a while. It isn't actually cheap. Also, they moved me to the other side of Oakland.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 6:54 AM
horizontal rule
24

cocktail program

10 PRINT "COCKTAIL"
20 GOTO 10


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 6:55 AM
horizontal rule
25

I have a very nice view of the strip of the East End that runs from St. Paul's to the water tower up by the abandoned VA hospital above Washington Blvd.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 6:57 AM
horizontal rule
26

29: 15 LIFE = LIFE + 1


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 7:23 AM
horizontal rule
27

Damn, I forgot my BASIC syntax.

15 LET LIFE = LIFE + 1


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 7:26 AM
horizontal rule
28

30: That is a nice view.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 7:28 AM
horizontal rule
29

For Chicago specifically, LTH Forum is pretty reliable (I believe the site was the product of a schism in the local Chowhound) - particularly for cheap/ethnic/divey places.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 7:31 AM
horizontal rule
30

I've found Chowhound totally unusable for about the last 5 years (before that I used to use it regularly). If "Serious Eats" does something about cheap food in your city it is sually pretty good. Sometimes I've looked at "Eater" which is mind of annoying but will often have useful lists (helpfully, with maps). But mostly I solved the problem by either just going to steakhouses or letting my wife pick where we eat.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 8:17 AM
horizontal rule
31

I've decided that it's more pleasant to just set three twenty-dollar bills on fire, buy a nice cut of beef, and grill it myself rather than go out to another steakhouse ever again.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 8:22 AM
horizontal rule
32

35: whereas I've found Chowhound consistently useful. The best meal of my trip to Paris last year was at a place I found there.

Yelp, OTOH, is mostly only useful for telling you if a place really sucks.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 8:25 AM
horizontal rule
33

36: You can use pretty much any paper to start charcoal on fire if you have a chimney starter.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 8:26 AM
horizontal rule
34

I've found Yelp pretty useful for answering the question of what's in my immediate vicinity. Chowhound's format doesn't work very well for questions like that (nor does the tendency of members to say things like "well this restaurant in the outer Sunset is decent I suppose but what you REALLY want is this other place in Sunnyvale").


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 8:44 AM
horizontal rule
35

"What is in my immediate vicinity that doesn't really suck" seems like the single most useful question a restaurant app can answer.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 8:46 AM
horizontal rule
36

re: 40

Just a big button 'FOOD!' and a single SWIPL dial/slider.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 8:53 AM
horizontal rule
37

"What is in my immediate vicinity that doesn't really suck" seems like the single most useful question a restaurant app can answer.

Aren't there a billion apps that purport to do that? I have about 7 on my phone as it is and most of them I didn't even get for that purpose.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 8:57 AM
horizontal rule
38

the tendency of members to say things like "well this restaurant in the outer Sunset is decent I suppose but what you REALLY want is this other place in Sunnyvale Xi'an"


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 8:58 AM
horizontal rule
39

41 is the greatest idea in the history of ideas.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 8:59 AM
horizontal rule
40

41: it should be called iAudrey.

"FEED ME NOW!"


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 9:01 AM
horizontal rule
41

If you are watching your calorie intake, then it will track them and, when you press the FOOD button, a sign will light up reading "PLEASE DO NOT PRESS THIS BUTTON AGAIN".


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 9:02 AM
horizontal rule
42

I actually find Yelp useful, but that's probably because I skim for useful (to me) info and disregard the evaluative stuff.

I try to make my own as specific as possible so people can gauge whether they share my biases or not. Sometimes my own reviews get marked "Funny" which is odd since there is AFAICT nothing funny about them. I do appreciate it when people mark mine "Useful."


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 9:09 AM
horizontal rule
43

41 is a great interface idea. The problem is getting the data. People review on Yelp because it gives them a chance to "express" "themselves."


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 9:10 AM
horizontal rule
44

43: My understanding is that to the average SFian Xi'an is slightly more accessible.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 9:12 AM
horizontal rule
45

41 is a great interface idea. The problem is getting the data.

You do realise Facebook is basically a giant SWPL database, right?


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 9:27 AM
horizontal rule
46

47: Specificity is sort of innately funny. That kind of thing happens to me fairly frequently -- I'm trying to be precise and people react as if I were being witty.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 9:30 AM
horizontal rule
47

People review on Yelp because it gives them a chance to "express" "themselves."

Yes precisely, and I wish whichever bozo decided that it would be possible to rate reviews on any other dimension that usefulness would be executed. I don't want you to try to be funny!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 9:43 AM
horizontal rule
48

We can probably do it via some kind of mining/harvesting into a Solr index, with weighting for certain key words like 'artisanal' and 'grass-fed'.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 9:46 AM
horizontal rule
49

A suburban place is good only if you see something like "worth the trip" in the review.

This is such an excellent point that it should be standard on food review sites. How far would you travel?

LA has excellent food reviewers. Pulitzer-prize-winning LAT food critic Jonathan Gold's list is excellent and wildly varied on location, ethnicity and price. While it's started to concentrate around schmancy stuff in WeHo, you can still find hand-cut noodles in San Gabriel or mole in Pacoima. Eater LA is very good, too, and both have maps. Also there are tons of dudes with taco blogs, which while not objectively reliable have the enjoyable quality of knowing that someone went to more trouble than just posting on yelp.

That said, between slow internet and hangry family, I couldn't identify a decent burrito joint near Encino in time yesterday and we went with Thai delivery. Not a terrible fate.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 9:57 AM
horizontal rule
50

This is such an excellent point that it should be standard on food review sites. How far would you travel?

(1) wouldn't even use the car
(2) would use the car, but wouldn't bother checking the tires
(3) far enough that you want to make sure your tires are in good condition; may we suggest Michelin-brand tires?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 10:04 AM
horizontal rule
51

51: It's been noted.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 10:13 AM
horizontal rule
52

55 to 57.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 10:16 AM
horizontal rule
53

54 -- Jonathan Gold is really consistently excellent. Also in the hospital btw, so send some prayers/good thoughts.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 10:17 AM
horizontal rule
54

Facebook is basically a giant SWPL database

You call Mark and get the data, and I'll design the app. You can have 30% of the gross for your incisive contribution, I'll take 70% for doing all the work, and we'll give ttaM a nice shout-out in the credits for coming up with the idea.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 10:17 AM
horizontal rule
55

60 -- and then I'll profit from Ttam's lawsuit. Everyone wins.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 10:19 AM
horizontal rule
56

11: 10: Chowhound.

I first assumed that this was an imprecation being hurled at knecht. Somehow tied to the pseud being "Bran Muffin."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 10:24 AM
horizontal rule
57

Also in the hospital btw

He tweeted within the day. You didn't just hit him with your fancy car, did you?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 10:24 AM
horizontal rule
58

You call Mark and get the data, and I'll design the app

If you just use Facebook app authentication you don't even need to speak to Mark. That'll be 10% please.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 10:24 AM
horizontal rule
59

Although TFA say very occasional commenter.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 10:26 AM
horizontal rule
60

Not really practical in most instances and something I've only sort of used once*, but thought clever, was William Least Heat Moon's Blue Highways strategy of asking in the local library. Librarians know best about many useful and practical things.

*Was already in the library.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 10:38 AM
horizontal rule
61

I had very good luck with a foreign-language food app recently (the Slow Food guide in Italian, Osterie 2014).

Two reasons I think 1) nothing is more SWPL than foreign food discourse and 2) the language-learning mentality magically transforms what would annoy one in one's own language (over-descriptive, highly conventional prose) into a plus (build vocabulary, learn how real Italians put things)!

Not sure how to translate this wisdom for the US context though--maybe Michelin USA in French?.....nope, I see they only do NYC Bay Area & Chicago as yet.


Posted by: (damnit jim I'm a) lurker | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 2:28 PM
horizontal rule
62

Man, how serendipitous to read the Chancery one today, 4 years to the day after the old [Redacted] closed. Sad, sad. People crying. Love triangles. Fights. Regrettable hook-ups. Too much vomiting. And that was just the beer vendor! Oh well. Nothing lasts forever, even little bar/restaurants w/attached performance spaces.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09- 8-14 3:53 PM
horizontal rule