I'm a little bit irked that the airline seems more helpful in this case than when I was flying and trying to my son seated next to me. He's eight, which doesn't make it essential, but it sure does make it easier for everybody involved and seems completely reasonable for me to expect when we had seats together when I booked the tickets. Southwest was easier.
Anyway, it's better to be seated next to women because not every single woman in the world wants both arm rests.
I don't understand why the airline delayed departure for 15 to 20 minutes in order to accommodate some guy who "stood in the aisle, refusing to move." I'm pretty sure that if a black or Arab-appearing man prevented a departure because he was standing in the aisle refusing to move, he would be forcibly removed from the plane and/or arrested.
There's a simple solution. They can purchase an extra ticket.
Muslims have been having demands like this met at many colleges in the UK recently. Or so the Margaret Soltan blog would have me believe.
I don't mind people asking at all. Blocking a flight from taking off should get you dragged off the plane. I've seen it happen before to a woman who insisted on keeping the seat next to her empty because her companion wasn't able to fly with her or get a refund.
3 is right, and I don't understand why, 2 minutes into it, the flight attendant didn't just ask if anyone would change their seat.
(It's also entirely possible that there was a concurrent delay of some sort, so the crew wasn't actually in any hurry to get the passenger issue resolved.)
I'm surprised the airlines aren't more on top of accommodating the problem seamlessly -- I'd think if they were willing, they could sell Orthodox men seats next to other men without making anyone make a fuss about it. (Whether they should is arguable, but they could.)
6 before seeing 3. The woman I saw dragged off was white. The cops yelled at us because we started clapping when she was dragged away. She was very clearly expecting popular support instead of "If we leave right now, I can still make my connection."
If anyone ever wants a definition of "a shanda fur die Goyim", well here we go.
The urge to play the "I'm not touching you" game would be irresistible.
I'm pretty sure 10 means Josh is calling for someone named "shanda" to kill all the gentiles.
I would think that the NYT should have been able to find some rabbi that says that men and women shouldn't sit next to each other.
"I was fine with that. Everyone was trying to be accommodating because on airplanes everyone is anxious about offending anyone for religious reasons."
I'm hardly a frequent flyer but, uh, what?
The cops yelled at us because we started clapping when she was dragged away.
Bunch of killjoys. That kind of thing always makes me laugh.
The cops were in a really bad mood after about ten minutes of trying to reason with her.
15: That definitely describes my flying. My brother, the airlines like him. He gets to use the fancy lounges and all that stuff.
Why on earth are they asking the woman to change seats instead of asking that they be re-seated elsewhere?
Well, there's not giving a shit because you don't matter (you don't) and not giving a shit about things that have the potential to disrupt the whole process.
But from the IT side, I think airlines would find it pretty difficult to wedge that kind of knowledge and preference into their passenger reservation systems, creaky and mainframe-laden as they are.
Also I'm curious if the Orthodox guys would be equally strict with all women, or if they'd sit next to an 80 year old grandma or someone they consider not-very-tempting.
There's probably a rabbi-monitored version of Hot or Not for that.
The airlines could maybe make an effort to accommodate, but maybe fanatical adherents to exclusionary religious rules could meet them halfway. It's not as though you don't know you might be seated next to a woman before you board the plane. I think it's safe to call these guys douchebags without being accused of anti-Semitism.
maybe fanatical adherents to exclusionary religious rules could meet them halfway
'Cause those dudes are all about compromise.
Maybe these men shouldn't travel without a sister or mother escort, to sit in between them and any adjacent stray female.
"I'm sorry, but I bought this seat for my ham, and my ham isn't going anywhere."
The question I get stuck on is "What happens if no one's willing to move and the open seat is next to a woman?" If the ultra-Orthodox guy peevishly gets off the plane and tries again on a later flight, I've got some sympathy. Yes, religious fanatic, but you're invested enough in your fanaticism to miss your flight, and if you're that serious, then kicking up a fuss on the plane in the hopes of getting accommodated isn't all that disproportionate.
For someone who after making a fuss sits next to a woman and takes the flight anyway, I have no sympathy for anything beyond the most minimal, polite attempts to find themselves an acceptable seat.
I don't know why I said that except that at the Seder we took Zardoz to she randomly shouted "I WANT HAM!" Also, the image of a nice glazed ham sitting quietly on an airplane seat is pleasaing.
20 - I'm fairly certain this kind of thing isn't motivated by a respectful attitude towards others, especially others who happen to be women. This is also my answer to 22. I don't think it has anything serious to do with temptation. It's about reinforcing which people are worth more than others.
People give a lot of deference to religious beliefs, even openly toxic ones. But I'm not sure why a secular society should actively accept the costs of accommodating openly anti-secular communities.
Also, the image of a nice glazed ham sitting quietly on an airplane seat is pleasaing.
Ibérico or GTFO.
You know perfectly well that all meats must be securely stored in the over head compartment or beneath the seat in front of you during takeoff and landing.
I'm not sure the woman in 6 was being unreasonable. If the seat was paid for it ought to have been hers to do with as she pleases, right?
That was exactly her point. The airlines point was that the plane was full, they had another person right there who wanted the seat, and the other guy not showing up was nothing to do with them.
I think the unreasonableness was in the gigantic fuss she caused, which led to a serious delay in takeoff, not the original request?
The request itself doesn't strike me as particularly unreasonable either. I can see why the airlines wanted the opportunity to sell the seat twice, but that's not a desire that holds much weight for me at least.
Is one person allowed to have two boarding passes, both in their name?
They must allow it in cases where somebody is too big for one seat.
Airplanes should keep a big hunk of cardboard which they could unfold and shove down next to the armrest (on the religious fanatic's side, naturally). Problem solved. Or such persons could be required bring a nice big hunk of cardboard as their carry-on item. In fact they could bring a whole box in which to enclose themselves, in case they have a center seat.
at the Seder we took Zardoz to she randomly shouted "I WANT HAM!"
So awesome. I had to be late to my friends' Seder and was greeted as Elijah, which made me feel special. Nice people, the Jews.
In the event of a water landing, the cardboard would disintegrate. Maybe a thin plastic would be better.
Before seeing 45, which looks like a very good way to accidentally die.
In fact they could bring a whole box in which to enclose themselves,
Er, to 48 I meant to append: Hooray!
44: she also drained her second cup of grape juice and then held out the cup and loudly demanded "MORE WINE!" while the four questions were being read.
Reminds me of my favorite seat switching episode. A full cross country flight. About 10-15 teenage boys and a few coaches are flying to participate in an Inner City Basketball National Championship Tournament, according to their T-shirts. They are a trifecta of who you don't want to sit next to if you plan to sleep or work, because they are outgoing, loud, excited about being on an airplane, and also tall and long-armed. Also the racial thing.
When we board it is apparent that the team has a column of middle seats, all in different rows. Apparently they got their tickets late because they had just qualified for the tournament. Happily, enough businessmen accept middle seats next to other businessmen in exchange for windows or aisles that the team got to sit in their own block. No, not in the back.
"THIS PLANE IS AN ERUV, SO FUCK YOU"
Someone wearing a bag like that absolutely deserves to have a bunch of silly messages taped to his bag.
Then again sometimes extreme conservative religion is it's own punishment mockery. I'm not entirely sure what could actually make him look sillier. Cut out bunny ears taped to the bag behind his head?
As long as we're talking about bonkers Hasidic customs:
One wonders how they handle the Four Questions.
"No one, is to stone anyone else, until I give the word, even if they mention chametz." [Pause] "He said chametz!" [Stoning commences.]
51: I had the aisle once sitting next to a college basketball player. I gave him my seat.
That's why they make the youngest person ask it, they have the fewest accumulated sins.
50: So she's not the kid who doesn't know how to ask, which leaves wise, wicked and simple.
ly, enough businessmen accept middle seats next to other businessmen in exchange for windows or aisles that the team got to sit in their own block.
Wow! No one has ever ever ever accepted a middle seat for my benefit ever, even when my small child was involved.
A woman did for me just this week.
51: I once traveled halfway across the country sitting next to a weightlifter on a bus. Fucker should have paid for half my seat.
How did he get the bus into the airplane?
62: geez how'd they get the bus on the plane?
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In the further adventures of Wisconsin's attempt to become a southern state as fast as possible....
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I guess I'm just not the kind of person people want to go out of their way for!
I'm especially confused about how this happens on flights with many ultra-orthodox men flying together. (There was an el al incident with many passangers, iirc.) Why didn't they book earlier or pay more and get full rows? I think 30 gets at it, the point is that *women* are supposed to be inconvenienced in order to have the rules be followed not men, so why should they have to call ahead or pay extra in order to follow their religious beliefs when they can bully women instead?
In theory I do have some sympathy, it should be possible to call the airline ahead of time and get changed into a seat next to men (possibly paying a $50-ish fee if your fare class isn't high enough for seat selection privileges) and if airlines don't even try to accommodate that then that's a little bit bad.
I guess a big practical part of the problem is that they're probably also not supposed to talk to female flight attendants and gate agents. There must be some way around this though, like little business cards that explain the situation.
68: It probably didn't hurt that my son was deep into a monologue about pokemon.
I think 30 gets at it, the point is that *women* are supposed to be inconvenienced in order to have the rules be followed not men, so why should they have to call ahead or pay extra in order to follow their religious beliefs when they can bully women instead?
This sounds like #notallOrthodoxmen, but it seems perfectly plausible that there are lots of Orthodox men flying who'd prefer not to sit next to women, most manage somehow without being difficult about it, and the incidents come mostly from the overlap of men who believe they're religiously obliged not to touch women and men who are also, coincidentally, assholes.
I've certainly had Orthodox clients who were perfectly lovely to deal with other than remembering that I shouldn't offer to shake hands with them -- the 'no touching women' thing didn't seem to come across as a general difficulty with dealing with a female attorney.
There must be some way around this though, like little business cards that explain the situation.
"I'm not lost, I'm a free-range kid Jew!"
Most Orthodox men don't follow this rule. It seems pretty plausible to me that the specific Haredi sects that do follow this rule are distinguished from the others by extra misogyny.
That is, this is significantly different from the handshaking issue which is a general orthodox issue where I have much more sympathy.
I had the aisle once sitting next to a college basketball player. I gave him
I was expecting a more salacious conclusion to that sentence.
A slightly similar scenario is actually not that uncommon when flying to the Middle East. Flying to Abu Dhabi I have seen several cases where men would be asked if they could change their seat because a "covered lady" (term used by flight attendants -- sometimes someone from the Gulf in full black outfit, sometimes just slightly conservatively dressed Muslim or even Hindu women from Pakistan or India) asked not to be seated next to a male stranger. I have never seen it result in a problem, though -- all resolved discretely by the flight attendants long before takeoff.
Whether the result would be the same for a male Muslim passenger, on a flight in the US, at the level of service common for US airlines, is left as an exercise.
I think that if you reject the modern world to the extent you won't sit next to a woman, you shouldn't get to take advantage of the benefits of the modern world, like riding on airplanes.
Following up on 77--not, of course, because of anything having to do with the wholesome Oudemia, but because it reminded me of a game of "I Never" gone bad: "I never gave head to two sailors on a plane."
75: I don't actually know, but airplane seats are pretty tight quarters. If you're trying not to touch members of the opposite sex, I'd bet you'd strongly prefer not to sit next to one even if it's not a firm rule -- that is, I'd guess that anyone Orthodox enough not to shake hands with a woman would at least rather a male seat partner, and probably some of them do some discreet maneuvering to get there. The line is between discreet maneuvering and being a disruptive jerk.
(It's not relevant at all, but there's a wonderful children's clothes store that's been in Williamsburg at least since I was a baby run by Orthodox Jews. Mom ran into the proprietor once while she was working a Tel Aviv flight, and his kosher meal had gone astray (or, maybe turned out to be the wrong level of kosher? I can't remember. He didn't have food on a long flight), and she was beyond delighted to be in a position to steal peelable fruit for him from first class.)
67: This is kind of special:
"[Climate change is] not a part of our sole mission, which is to make money for our beneficiaries," said state Treasurer Matt Adamczyk (R)
He's referring to his role as part of the Board of Commissioners of Public Lands. I kind of though "stewardship of public lands" would be part of their mission too, but nope, its all about the cash.
and the incidents come mostly from the overlap of men who believe they're religiously obliged not to touch women and men who are also, coincidentally, assholes.
I'm sure there are plenty of even hyper-orthodox men who aren't awful and we don't hear about them because they took one look at the world and pretty much gave up on using state sponsored multi-person transportation don't aggressively inconvenience people. But I don't know about the "coincidentally" - most very conservative religions seem to be set up exactly in order to encourage (and require) men to be and enjoy being assholes to women.
I think this is a lot like those Christian sects that require complete subservience of women to their husbands. There are probably men in those groups who don't take that too seriously and treat their wives in a more or less respectful egalitarian way. But the ones that don't aren't coincidentally being awful.
And if I ask to be seated next to the ladies, I'm the asshole.
85 is a good point - very difficult to believe sincerely that women are inherently corrupt, corrupting, weak, sinful, unclean, polluting, temptresses and all the other rubbish that religions come up with, and not also to be an asshole. Those beliefs do sort of make one an asshole without the need for further effort on one's part in that direction.
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I'm tired of being sick. :( :( :( :(
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I'm kind of surprised that there haven't been clashes between the airlines' post-9/11 "no one should be congregating in the aisles" rule and Orthodox prayer groups. When I flew to Israel there was a big group of people standing in the aisles doing the whole thing with tefillin and swaying and whatnot.
81: As the article says:
Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, who counseled that it was acceptable for a Jewish man to sit next to a woman on a subway or bus so long as there was no intention to seek sexual pleasure from any incidental contact.
(Note here Moshe Feinstein isn't just some Rabbi, but he was one of the most prominent Halakhic scholars in the world. Wikipedia describes him as the "de facto supreme halakhic authority for Orthodox Jewry of North America.")
This just isn't an orthodox issue or even a Haredi issue. Even among those groups it's an extreme position.
Hugs to you, Messily! Hope you get well soon!
I guess a big practical part of the problem is that they're probably also not supposed to talk to female flight attendants and gate agents. There must be some way around this though, like little business cards that explain the situationnot being complete dicks.
There must be some way around this though, like little business cards that explain the situation
PLEASE EXCUSE ME I HAVE A MEDICAL RELIGIOUS CONDITION.
56: we had a large group of kids friends and their siblings and patents over on Sunday to watch LoB and only realized on like Friday it was extra blasphemous scheduling (and we served roasted pork!) but as all the parents are godless SF sophisticates it was not a problem & excellent time had by all. One 10 year old younger sibling had a particularly fab time as could not BELIEVE watching the Biggus Dickus scenes with parental approval surrounded by older kids. And everyone demolished a huge cake that turned out extra tasty.
E messily mucho sympathy!
we should have a thread just for complaining about doctors and phlebotamists and diseases so I don't always interrupt an actual conversation.
But complaining is very important to me!
But complaining is very important to me!
Understandably! Chronic illness is a total fucking drag. Sorry you're dealing with it.
Man, phlebotamists. I used to have to get blood drawn every six months, and I hated it so much when they would jostle the needle as they switched out the little vials that filled up with blood for the various tests. Always hurt, and always left me with deep bruises from, I guess, nicking the inside of the vein. I even thought up a device, a short length of flexible tubing, that would allow them to switch out the vials without moving the needle. And then it turns out, years later at a different place, they used such a device, and it was (relatively) blissful! But most places won't spend the $1.99 extra for the tubing. I guess it's not the phlebotamists' fault but the bosses'.
No seriously that is actually the excuse they used.
But I'm sure the University will manage to make whatever changes are necessary to prevent any future ethical concerns.
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I'd be up for that thread. Doctors and the health care are totally fucking my wife. No not like that.
Sorry, E. Messily. I like the idea of a complaining thread. Maybe a regularly weekly or once-every-two-week thread for everyone to vent about everything. Sounds healthy.
E. Messily, sorry you're ill. I hope things start to look up soon.
Re: phlebotomy, I had a friend who was a pre-med major in college. To be certified, she had to get fifty volunteers and draw their blood. She practiced on classmates and her boyfriend, but needed more victims. Her grandparents owned a sawmill, and they let her set up a stand on payday right in front of where the men collected their paychecks. The men figured it wasn't optional, seeing as she was the owner's granddaughter, sitting in between them and their checks. I am glad she's not in the medical profession.
Ooh, I want that thread. Dentist complaining would be allowed as well, right?
Complaining about homeopathy is right out. Also, sorry you're not feeling well.
My attitude towards doctors is to remember that almost all of them were once pre-meds.
you can complain about homeopathy, but only a little tiny bit.
A friend recently told me to try to think of them as special-needs students so that I would be patient and kind when they are being dumb. It's probably not terrible advice but it is hard to put into practice.
Oh, E. Messily, I'm sorry it's still all bad. I have a lot of non-medical complaints but also gratitude that the child who wanted to know what would happen if she chewed through am electric wire asked rather than experimenting. Now that I mention this, an in-home IRB would solve many of our problems. Hmm.
I guess it's not the phlebotamists' fault but the bosses'.
You tell 'em, comrade!
Allied health professionals of the world unite. You have nothing to lose but your chains.
a baby run by Orthodox Jews
This is some sort of new blood libel, isn't it?
Anyway, one of the adjustments to being very mildly disabled that I haven't yet made is how to deal with people on planes. I'm tallish and look perfectly healthy, so people often ask me to put their bags in the overhead. And occasionally they ask me to switch their window for my aisle seat. I have yet to say no to the former, which is stupid, because I'm not supposed to lift more than 25 pounds. But I do say no to the latter, because I need to walk around a lot during flights, or I can't walk at all after landing. The problem is, when I say no, the people asking think I'm a complete dick. And I'm not comfortable saying, "Well, I'm sort of disabled, you see, so I really can't," because that seems weird to me.
And yes, that was a long and boring comment, but given how much I've flown in the past year, it's been on my mind.
Still boring, yes.
Orthodox Jews run lots of babies. It's why there are so many of them.
And now that I read the article, I see that it mentions the high birthrates in the Ultra-Orthodox community as one factor making these disputes more common.
Anyway, I fly a lot, but almost entirely within Alaska. I have never encountered this problem.
Michael Chabon isn't a very accurate historian.
I never managed to read any thing he wrote. I know about the Jews in Alaska book because I read the dust cover of a copy I bought as a gift.
122: That's the only of his books I've ever read, and only because my mom gave me a copy when I moved to Alaska. Nevertheless, it's a good book.
116: Wouldn't something as vague as, "I'm sorry, I have this leg thing" be ambiguous enough that it's not awkward, yet expressive enough - especially combined with subsequent observation of you pacinghobbling a 5k in the aisle - to let the other person know you're not being a jerk?
Like you, I hate to be forthcoming about this sort of thing, so I've often turned to vagueness as a social lubricant.
Since no medical thread has been forthcoming, I'll just offer that I have a mild crush on my phlebotomist. My parents were both regular blood donors, so I've been giving since I turned 18. Since about 2001, I've given very regularly (60+ times I think) at one location, and almost the whole time there's been this woman, who was quite young(-looking) when she started. All these years later, we know each other well, ask after each others' kids, etc.
So anyway, she's great, but the real source of the crush is that she's a great phlebotomist. I used to have this cycle where it would hurt less than I expected, then the next time it would hurt surprisingly much, so I'd reset my expectations, etc. But since she's consistently been doing it, I hardly feel it at all, and it's a totally relaxing experience. The M/dw/fe Center is talking about adding blood draw as a service (mostly as a client convenience, it would only be a small revenue source), and I was totally talking her up, which is not exactly a board member's role. But she's so great.
I think I'm still not allowed to donate blood, because I'm at too much risk for Mad Cow disease, despite being at a lower risk than every non-vegetarian British person over 30 or so.
I suppose I could donate blood in Britain, unless they have a rule about having lived more than three months in America.
I got in the habit of donating blood for a while, until they banned me on account of my taking a vacation to Costa Rica. The worst part is, there is like one part of Costa Rica - the Limón province - where malaria is an issue, and I hadn't gone there, but their information systems were fucked up in a way that that was considered the only part of the country you could go to. There being no obvious way to appeal, I was banned from giving blood for a year.
So I came back a year later, gave blood, and then two weeks later took a vacation to the Limón province of Costa Rica. I have not given blood since.
I did not. Although, these days, dengue fever seems all the rage.
If you say it's against your religion to sit next to a mosquito, that helps avoid disease.
these days, dengue fever seems all the rage is the new hotness
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Sickness update: I threw up a bunch early this morning, but I've been keeping things down since 8 or so. I think this means I'm on the way to better. I still am too wobbly to walk unaided though. I ran out of all the tv I was watching so now I'm re-watching Heros. It is pretty good!
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That sounds promising, depending on what time zone you are in.
