Is this a social class of origin thing? Because people who grew up lower middle class or working class have a weird thing about going to events and sticking by their spouse or whoever it was the came with. It keep Obama from stealing their wife or something.
If it happened as described, she's having an outsized reaction to you managing yourself. Ah, the perils of letter writing. Her reaction was much more "You embarrassed me by not being at my side," and "I had to tell people you ducked out," than worry about my feelings. My disappearing and not standing at her shoulder made her evening more awkward.
if you ask her during the next reception, point blank, "Are you enjoying yourself? Would you like me to do anything in particular?", will she give you a straight answer? She might. We're ordinarily good at paying attention to each other's emotional cues--to the point where she believes that any disappointment or boredom on my part telegraphs through to any or all party attendees. (Though sometimes she acknowledges that she knows that I'm not enjoying myself because she knows me so well.)
On "Are you enjoying yourself"... I don't know what she'd say. That's a good reason to ask, of course. She was basically happy with the evening, despite the entire thing being an obligation, except for having to cover for my absence. (That largely matches her "how it went" breakdown the next day.)
I'll remember and use, "Would you like for me to do anything in particular?" It probably means more dancing and dealing with her disgust afterward, but that's better than sinking the evening as a whole.
The partner who wants to stay and party should let the partner not enjoying him/her-self leave early and then take a cab later. Be gracious party animals! (I am a party animal, better half is not and is particularly tortured by high volume music.) Heebie may be right that this points to some deep underlying relationship issues, but on the other hand weddings bring up a LOT of issues for many people. Cut each other some slack.
1: Maybe? I suspect that it's more that she got those instructions as feminine social cues from her social-climber mom, and assumes that the rules [stand by your man] are symmetrical for both genders. I'm no social expert--it could be that they are and I'm clueless enough to have missed the instruction!
She did have a rougher/poorer childhood than I did, so she might have picked up more working class cues... Thinking harder, I know she did. She's close to her dad, who has been a working man all of his life.
Ah, the perils of letter writing. Her reaction was much more "You embarrassed me by not being at my side," and "I had to tell people you ducked out," than worry about my feelings. My disappearing and not standing at her shoulder made her evening more awkward.
Sure, but it's in her head that those answers are awkward. It's not a set fact about reality that it must be awkward to deliver those answers.
Also weddings are the awesomest occasions for un rigidly partnered dancing! Just dance! No one cares whether you have a partner! Dance with the mother of the bride! The flower girls! The caterers!
It's very common for me to go home earlier than Jammies from this kind of thing. Although I do like weddings. I'm just delicate.
I'd be willing to bet that if she wrote in, she'd say, "We were having a pleasant evening chatting with fellow board members, but then he just disappeared mid-conversation! A couple of our friends asked where he was and I was embarrassed to say I had no idea. Eventually I found him standing around alone outside. When I asked why he couldn't be sociable, he got all snippy asking whether he had to stand mutely by my side."
$0.02: really not a big deal requiring Strategies and Plans for next time -- just tell her you're stepping out for some air and dance one slow dance.
3: She's normally a much greater introvert than I am. You may have something about weddings in specific, or she might have felt particularly vehement about policing my behavior since these are people she spends several hours every week with.
8: I'd buy that. Well worth 2 cents!
Yeah, maybe I read too much into the ATM.
My immediate and probably inaccurate reaction* was that the critical bit of the story was this part:
The wedding was between one of her fellow board members and someone I've met once in passing. She meets with her board members frequently (they put on a convention together)--about weekly on average. They met as board members and have served for 24-30 months at this point.
The impression I got here is that for most part these aren't people you've met, or have met but haven't talked to much, and they're mostly her friends(ish) as a result. If so I can see how it would get awkward for her if you kind of wandered off and she didn't know where you were, because it's one of those "multiple spheres overlap" parties where people who are friends in one context are meeting each other's spouses, interacting in a more directly social way than they have before, getting to know each other personally (in a new/social way), and so on. So she's stuck in a series of conversations that look kind of like:
BOARDMEMBERSNAME: Oh WIFESNAME! It's great to see you here - outside of work haha. This is PARTNERSNAME who I told you about.
PARTNERSNAME: Nothing bad I hope! Haha!
WIFESNAME: Oh no, no only good things. I love your DRESSORSUIT.
BOARDMEMBERSNAME: Is Alces here? You said he was coming and I was looking forward to meeting him after all those stories you told!
WIFESNAME: Oh... he... um... I think he's... no he must have gone.. somewhere. I'm sure he's around though.
[Everyone laughs nervously]
*I am... not someone whose analysis of these things is likely to be very insightful for any reason other than luck. But this is the internet and it's traditional to say stuff because of that!
6:
No one cares whether you have a partner!She cares. We both spent our 20s and most of our 30s unpartnered, so she's very done with anything smacking of "going stag". (That came out, strong and clear, on the drive back to the hotel.)
11: While perhaps true, I did spend a half-hour of talking just with the non-wedding board members as an engaged spouse between the wedding and reception seating, and made pleasant conversation (no, really!) with both total strangers and the non-wedding board members once seated and throughout dinner. They'd already had 2+ hours of small talk (and slightly closer than small talk) with me already before I stepped outside.
[For clarity: the board is 4 members. My wife, getting-married-guy, and a husband and wife. So much of the conversation--particularly after the reception and once they came outside to talk after I disappered--were two couples conversations.]
Did you flirt with somebody's 22 year-old cousin or something?
15: Sadly, no. This one I feel very confident about; other than disappearing, my wife should have felt like she was my primary focus. Nothing else was more than pleasantries, and there was no alcohol to blur memories or exaggerate.
If not, you should. Might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb.
Wait. You talked to strangers for more than two hours sober and unpaid?
18: Crazy, right?
Yeah, the other board members are Mormon, which helps. I only rarely drink socially, and usually am the designated driver. She drinks more often, but didn't this time.
I don't even understand how dry weddings work. It's literally unbiblical.
Maybe she felt business-dissed as well as socially-dissed? Board members should have an adoring spouse to laugh at their punchlines? This need not be a conscious expectation.
This is an odd one for me, because I am more likely to embarrass my family by dancing than by not dancing. Although this is because I, too, am a very bad dancer.
So basically I'm with 6.
22: Strangely, my dad made a fool of himself at my cousin's wedding about 2 years ago. (He drank a lot, then danced like a silly fool.) She still talks about how embarrassing he was, and how his drinking to excess disturbs her.
21: I'd buy that, particularly as an subconscious belief.
We both spent our 20s and most of our 30s unpartnered, so she's very done with anything smacking of "going stag". (That came out, strong and clear, on the drive back to the hotel.)
This is a sufficient "bigger issue" to satisfy my suspicious OP. Not that the relationship necessarily has bigger issues, but why the incident struck a nerve with her.
Actually, I think this is an emotional labor thing, as in the MeFi thread that has been going around. The problem is that you are not contributing your share to maintaining the extra-family social relationships. And, as when people slack on housework, the first line of defense is to say that having high standards for this kind of work is a misplaced priority. "Who cares if there are dirty dishes in the sink?" "Who cares if they didn't see me by your side the whole time?"
If that's what's going on, then what you need to do is establish shared standards for what constitutes a good job with the emotional labor.
I'm sympathetic here. I hate emotional labor. I don't even like dealing with my own emotions.
Don't even bother asking the guys sitting outside Home Depot.
King, how long have you guys been together? I interpreted this
Weddings are rare for us, since we (and our peers) are no longer in our 20s when attending weddings was much more common.
to mean you'd been together since your 20s, but now clearly that isn't the case. This kind of issue feels like a reasonably early-relationship problem to navigate, not nearly such a bad sign as if she's exploding unexpectedly after 20 years and you genuinely didn't think you'd done anything wrong.
I'm trying to imagine what might have caused me to be upset, if I were in this situation. All I'm coming up with is the (very deeply ingrained) sense that it's RUDE to step out of a party for more than a brief while. You're there, you're supposed to be participating. If you leave -- to hide in the bathroom to check your cell phone, to skulk outside and get some fresh air, to have a beer with a friend and talk trash about the hostess -- you're thumbing your nose at the time and effort people put into planning the event.
I actually can't really defend this position, but it was certainly drilled into me by my mother. On the many occasions when I did some version of the above.
There's really no excuse for not dancing with your wife at a wedding.
The disappearing issue is trickier. That seems like pretty reasonable behavior on your part to me, but I can see why she'd be put out not knowing where you are. It's nice to have someone you can fall back to, and I can see it being frustrating to suddenly feel like you're at a party alone. Telling her you're stepping out for some fresh air might well have solved the problem.
Bitches be tripping. I guess I am single for a reason but she seems unreasonably demanding in your telling of it.
A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. For decoration.
It would hurt even more if she had been anticipating you, who she loves, seeing her at a social and professional peak - and instead you don't want to even be around her success. Marriage-breaking existential hurt, so let's hope I'm projecting.
25: Yeah, that was a big enough smack with the clue-by-four that I get it. I'd just like to find a solution that works--if I sacrifice, I'd like for the evening to end with her happier than if I'd dodged the event altogether.
26: That's a good point--good enough that I wrote and rewrote responses a few times. Very vaguely: in the abstract, I contribute a more emotional labor, but am willing to contribute more to specific instances like this, if enduring for a night makes our mutual and individual sacrifices better.
28: We've been together for a dozen years and married for 8.
I thought it was rude to have a social and professional peak at somebody else's wedding. Or maybe that's announce your own engagement.
Sounds like you tolerated the wedding and she is a little on the sensitive side.
Maybe her expectations were for you to be a more active participant for her to show off and you just put in a passive appearance.
28: We've been together for a dozen years and married for 8.
Oh. That's plenty long!
I'm with Witt in 29. I run out of gas at parties pretty fast and want to go hide someplace, but I firmly believe that I'm being terribly rude if I actually do it. If your wife has the same belief about what manners require at a party, she thinks you were being rude to the married couple, which is kind of a big deal at their wedding.
Fish will sometimes ride a bicycle, but they won't own one. It's like with the Amish and cars.
Clinging as non-awkwardly as possible to the one who brought me is how I deal with this kind of social occasion, unless there's no one to non-awkwardly cling to, in which case I look for ways out. It's a wonder I'm not happily married.
29: I'd accept the rudeness angle, and certainly accept it being drilled in by a mother. (I'd very much believe it of hers, given their relationship.)
30.1: Even when she hates it whenever we do, and insults both my dancing and lack of rhythm regularly? (I am really bad at rhythm, and am clumsy too. In dancing, I'm no prize.)
30.2: Yeah, I think next time I'll just be rude in breaking into her conversation when I disappear, instead of being rude by disappearing. There's no good solution, but breaking in the conversation keeps her informed.
33: I also strongly hope you're projecting! I was pleasant and engaged for hours, and interacted with her peers the whole time.
It feels demanding to ask that I stand mutely (or forcing myself to shout conversational pleasantries over loud music), for hours more be required, but maybe that was her unconscious assumption. Or, far more likely, she didn't realize that there was no good way for me to actively participate, so I could only stand there as a mute prop. Gah, saying that that screams defensiveness at me.
I think the evening that developed (talking with her friends [the fellow board members], all of us, as two couples) worked out much better than shouting over music, but I'd understand her frustration that she wasn't a part of that decision. I can see it as being even worse, that she "salvaged" it by bringing her friends out, since I'd abandoned her.
If wedding throwers continue to escalate the time and energy expected of the guests then in fairness there needs to be much more understanding of different capacities of endurance.
39: Yes, I suppose that's very likely. In which case, negotiating a specific duration mutual appearance instead of leaving it vague might help in the future.
41: Clinging is what she was looking for, I think, so you'd have been good.
Whenever I hear the word "cling," I think of "Cling tenaciously to my buttocks" and somebody made of toast. I can't remember why, but I assume it's alcohol related.
Wait a minute, my operating belief is that clinging is a sure sign that someone is not enjoying himself and is unwilling to mingle, and is therefore rude. Unless there's some prior agreement that it's "impress the bosses" night or something, going off to mingle is what a grown-up does. Maybe you should tell your spouse (shoulder tap, mumble mumble) that you're leaving for a bit, but that's it.
The stuff that bothers me here is how many times you refer to her 'disgust' with you for your dancing skills, or your lack of dancing. I feel like it must hurt you more than you are saying. I would be very hurt by it. I would be fine with a partner every once in a while expressing annoyance about a trait of mine, but disgust would be hard to stomach. You don't dance and don't like it. After 12 years together she's got to know that. So why isn't she accepting of it and instead insists on expressing disgust?
It's rude not to enjoy oneself?
Sorry brah.
46: This was, explicitly, a social obligation derived from her presence on the board. She showed up out of social obligation to her fellow board member, and I out of obligation to her.
With that as the baseline for why we were there, I might as well show up and do my best to dazzle for her. I succeeded for a while, but ducked out and left her in the lurch. I REALLY should have let her know where I was going. Or, better big boy pants, should have invited them all outside where we could converse. If they replied with a "no thanks", it'd have probably still been better, since the non-wedding board members would have felt thought of and addressed.
48: I am bad at dancing and alone have no desire to fix it. If I could be good at dancing without having to work at it, I'd choose it--not out of any desire to dance, but merely to make meeting social obligations easier.
I suspect her dismay at my not dancing comes from realizing that by marrying me, she really has opted to remove dancing from her life. (It was never a big part of her life, but she loves old-timey music, and dance is a way to turn that into an event, a pleasurable public experience.)
Is your wife generally easy-going and weddings are weird, or is it typical for her to tell you what you did wrong (and for you to accept it)?
53: We're mostly easy-going. Weddings are weird, weirder than I thought, after digging deeper with you all.
I thought it was rude to have a social and professional peak at somebody else's wedding.
"I'll have what she's having."
Yeah, I think the general rule "courtesy includes letting people know where you are" covers this one.
Personally I find it more awkward to be the other half of the situation - i.e. the person at the party who knows lots of other people there through work or whatever, rather than the partner who only knows one - because then you're always worrying that your partner is having a rotten time because they don't know anyone. (Having a pre-party is normally the way forward on this, but it's not really feasible for a wedding.)
I'm still mulling the fact that you guys have been together 12 years but "going stag" at an event, even temporarily, is still that emotionally triggering for her. That says to me that she either experienced a lot lot of hurtful/snide comments during her single years (not that unusual for a woman, IME), or they wounded her more substantively for some personal-to-her reason.
You're there, you're supposed to be participating.
Mandatory fun is the worst.
I'm going stag to a wedding in two weeks. But that was because after extensive discussion with my special, I decided I couldn't subject him to it. (The bride once worked for San/t0rum, and I'm only going out of deep social obligation.) I may very well be tempted to hide in the bathroom and post uncharitable things on Unfogged, but my absence would be missed, and I would have to answer for it....
58: It's caused a problem or two, I'll give you that.
K-sky pointed me to this video, which helps emphasize the value of bad dancing.
42.2: Being married to someone who's mean to you sounds tough, but I still think if you marry someone you've signed up for dancing with them at weddings.
30.1 Not if the wedding wasn't
In Chicago, Chicago
The town that Billy Sunday couldn't shut down
On State Street that great street I just want to say
They do things they don't do on Broadway
They have a time, the time of their life
I saw a man who danced with his wife
In Chicago, Chicago my hometown
Chicago, Chicago
That toddlin' town
if you marry someone you've signed up for dancing with them at weddings
No way, man.
62: Maybe, but certainly when you've married someone, you've signed up for them dancing like a doofus at weddings.
I've learned to dance at weddings in the last dozen years, after being married for twenty years before that without being able to bring myself to do it. It can be that important.
The Fred Fisher song is for me associated with Harold Washington singing it spontaneously on the night of his re-election. His opponent, enemy really Ed Vrdolyak had made Sinatra's version his theme song; I can remember working as a young lawyer in the library and hearing the Vrodlyak truck blaring Sinatra driving by repeatedly. After winning decisively, Washington sang it himself, with feeling. That fall he would be dead, 1987.
Dancing at a dry wedding? No greater hell.
Hrm, yeah, 68 has a point.
It's funny that "enduring weddings" and "enduring marriages" mean such different things.
I don't even understand how dry weddings work. It's literally unbiblical.
Indeed. Even weddings with cash bars are unbiblical.
my operating belief is that clinging is a sure sign that someone is not enjoying himself and is unwilling to mingle, and is therefore rude
Not to brag, but I consider making some good faith but as non-awkward as possible attempts to circulate and mingle to be an essential part of clinging as non-awkwardly as possible. Sometimes it's even ok.
You can tell by the number of times I've written "non-awkward" that I don't at all feel awkward at large social events where I don't know many people besides who I'm with. Ladeez.
That fall he would be dead, 1987. Reader, I murdered him.
I've worked the campaigns of some wonderful politicians, but I never loved anyone more.
To the OP, you both sound like weirdos, your wife for being such a goddamn weirdo, and you for writing in about it instead of telling her what for. Consider the fact that neither one of you will likely do any better, and try to be happy.
75 seems mean, until you realize it applies to most everyone.
Oh oh I think I know this one! She was feeling insecure and uncool and was hoping you would support her socially in such a way that would make her feel cool around worky people! Some dates are really good at this, and some aren't, and it doesn't have much to do with the happiness or intimacy of the relationship.
That is, I have felt this way, when at a party/wedding with someone I hoped would make me feel less anxious about looking like a well-put-together person. An ex of mine was great at this--not demanding my attention at all while I made dreaded small talk with acquaintances from college, while also staying in eyesight and responding to subtle cues about dancing or conversational rescue. That is, I'm the one who had to be at that wedding, so it was ideal that he neither (a) took the opportunity to whisk some bridesmaid onto the dancefloor or whoop it up with guys at the bar, nor (b) demanded a romantic time staring into each others' eyes for the duration. Being an ideal wedding date is a complicated task.
I was thinking of when I last felt like Queen Alces, and it was at a party that I did not want to attend, but it was being thrown by someone I was sleeping with, who knew these things make me anxious and that I didn't like many of the people coming, but had to be polite, and he danced with everyone at the party, got into deep conversations with other people, etc., and I had to go upstairs and meditate on whether I was mad at him (I was not!) or if I was in a situation in which it was awkward and humiliating to ask him to meet my poorly timed emotional needs. My feelings are very real, but usually irritation/jealousy about a date's behavior is about some insecurity of my own.
I have also been the wedding date who provides the above services, and it's tricky!
Being the supportive spouse can be an entire challenging career.
Oh man, I'm going to have to go stag to my sister's wedding, unless I find a date. I should start saving up for an escort now, I guess.
Weddings are rare for us, since we (and our peers) are no longer in our 20s when attending weddings was much more common.
I guess it's a sign of my general social isolation that next month I'm going to the first wedding of a friend that I've been invited to, at age 30. (Lots of my other friends from high school and college have gotten married, but in every case we've drifted apart so much that I wasn't invited and didn't care.) I don't have a date, of course.
Whatever obligation one has to dance at weddings with a spouse evaporates when the word "disgust" is either used or honestly implied. No one has to submit to that.
67: I believe you when you say that. How did you start? Were you terrible or just not practiced?
57: Unfortunately, yes, she spent much of her youth being shamed and struggling with her mom. Neither of us dated much in our primes.
72: I did this for hours. If you're in for six plus hours whenever you agree to this, I'll be sick a lot more often in the future.
77: I successfully supported her, told good stories, met and conversed with strangers, successfully for hours. It did fall apart when the choice came down to embarrass her or fail to dance with her, but that was well into the night.
78, 79: I think you've identified exactly what she wanted or needed. Maybe I should have just sucked it up for another hour, watching for cues and wandering elsewhere, but always attentive to her and keeping an eye out for "save me" signals. That sounds like work of the nastiest sort, but if that's a reasonable expectation, I'll work on those skills.
if that's a reasonable expectation
I'm not saying it's reasonable! It might not be. I recognize when I'm being unreasonable, and remembered feeling the way she did, but no, I'd never yell at someone about it without taking myself out of the situation to ask myself why I'm feeling that way.
The relationship does sound contemptuous, which is a much more severe and toxic state than anything I'm talking about. If you have contempt for your partner, you don't tend to think about how to ask for what you need or whether you're making a reasonable request.
I mean, would it feel different if she came to you and said, hey I'm a little jumpy about having to be cool at this wedding--can you help me out in these ways? It sounds like she was pretty ready to jump on you for not knowing what she was feeling. More communication or intervention!
I'm not sure I think that any relationship can really expect both parties always to have reasonable feelings that are never projections of insecurity or past trauma. It's a big reason why we develop intimate relationships, so we can work out a lot of difficult and confusing feelings about our selves/past. All my partners have asked for unreasonable indulgences pretty much every day, and so have I. But the good relationships are ones in which both people can reflect on why they're feeling this need, what they think will help, what the experience of the other person will be in indulging that need, etc. Unreasonable doesn't mean stupid or pointless, but it can mean abusive if you aren't self-aware about it.
The failsafe practical solution to this is to take up smoking cigarettes. All your acquaintance will quickly grow used to you disappearing outside from time to time. However, I don't think I can recommend this in good faith.
If you're a long term couple I don't see why the Queen can't go off and dance with somebody else or on her own. Mrs y has done this since I stopped being able to dance, and she seems to enjoy herself. The real answer would be to sever your relationships with anybody so shallow that they give a fuck whether you dance at their parties or not, But I can see that couldn't be done in this case.
I can get why someone might be annoyed at their partner just disappearing without a heads up as to where they are going. I've both done that myself, and been the recipient of it, and it's understandable why someone might get grumpy about it.
However, the combination of both insisting the King dance, and being disgusted with the King for his dancing can fuck right off. You don't get to do both without being an arsehole.
We should at least consider the possibility that the King has found a completely novel way to suck at dancing.
Queen Alces likes "old-timey" dancing. King Alces can't dance and disgusts her when he does.
Is it too late to suggest that anyone without some physical disability can learn to do a box step*, which is the foundation of "old-timey" dancing? Maybe what she's disgusted by is your quite explicit desire to avoid learning how, not the dancing itself. I'm thinking of that partner dynamic where one royal forces another to do something (wash the dishes, say) and the one being forced passive-aggressively does as bad a job of it as possible (short of breakage) to get back at the other royal?
*Maybe the Queen is into complex square dancing or The Twist (which might be considered "old-timey" if the royal couple are forty-ish)?
However, the combination of both insisting the King dance, and being disgusted with the King for his dancing can fuck right off.
Working on sympathy for the Queen -- I think if she's got a legit grievance, it's not knowing whether he's going to dance. If dancing is right out, they've been together for ages, she should know that by now. But if he's hemming and hawing about it, then she's at the wedding wondering if she's going to get to dance with him (which she apparently does want to) and being actively disappointed at that time.
If it was clear all along that there was no way he was going to dance, then she should get over herself. (And if His Majesty isn't completely exaggerating the disgust, if she's actually being unpleasant to him about his dancing skill, then she should also stop being a twerp about that.)
85-87: I think that's the heart of it. Our relationship is much better than this snippet sounds--weddings for us seem to be loaded with unconscious expectations. I know that I was (at least to her) openly miserable at the previous couple of weddings, so she was doubtless primed to read the worst. I think per 50, I have a game plan for the future.
89.1: I was slow, but have come to appreciate just how badly this would throw her off her game. I'll be rude in interrupting her conversation to let her know where I'm going in the future, to prevent the greater rudeness of abandoning her.
89.2, 90, 91: I have box stepped and been told I'm out of rhythm and that it's annoying. Despite that, I suspect that's the best path--offer up a box step, and let her decide to find partners capable of dancing after the obligatory first.
92: Maybe disgust is too strong--that's how I read it, but it could be simple disappointment filtered through my frustration at not being able to provide something simple that she'd enjoy. I don't hate the idea of dancing, but we never seek out any other opportunities to dance, so it only comes up at weddings. Since I was never good at dancing and haven't practiced, I'm never good at dancing.
I suspect that you're right, LB: wanting to provide her a dancing experience probably leaves the option open, leaving her disappointed when it fails to manifest. Maybe that's part of our attending the next wedding drive over checklist--will we dance? Get it out of the way on the drive over, so it's recently resolved when we get there. (Though, I also see that focusing on the negative like that on our way to the wedding wouldn't be the best way to get in a pleasant headspace for the ceremony.)
On the dancing specifically, have you thought about making a decision, and either being explicit about how you really are never never never going to dance because you're awful at it and you feel bad being awful in public, or seeing if she wants to take some lessons with you? She'd enjoy it, you'd get marginally less terrible, and it's something that people do do for fun sometimes.
As between those two choices, in your shoes I'd just abandon the idea of ever dancing again, but I understand that there are people out there who have retained the possibility of seeking out fun.
I'll be rude in interrupting her conversation to let her know where I'm going in the future, to prevent the greater rudeness of abandoning her.
Can't you... just wait for an opening, and skip both rudenesses?
Can't you... just wait for an opening, and skip both rudenesses?
I'm guessing that the "have to shout to be heard over the loud music" aspect of the situation made a more discrete approach difficult.
I'm on Team Queen with respect to remaining at the table and enduring the thing. Going out to catch some air when medically necessary, sure, but you've not signed up for attending half a wedding with the wife as part of her meeting her social obligations, but the whole thing.
95: Yes, but since I'm not part of the conversation (due to the loud), I'm only guessing at what's a pause. That said, in the future I'll keep an eye out for a good opening, and I'll consider it essential to let her know where I'll be.
I'm guessing that the "have to shout to be heard over the loud music" aspect of the situation made a more discrete approach difficult.
One is allowed to touch one's own spouse on the shoulder when there is a pause, and also to stand in line of sight and wait for a moment to catch her eye. It's really very possible to do that in a way that is natural and 0% rude.
97: I was afraid that'd be the case. So, what do you do when you have no one to talk to and can't hear their conversation? Per 78, circle the room and have shouty conversations with random people while always keeping an eye out for her signals?
I can't stand being forced around to stand around when the music is too loud to talk. I agree that King has to endure this to whatever extent, but I'm commiserating that it's super boring and drives me crazy.
I'm commiserating that it's super boring and drives me crazy
Definitely.
Do you have a particularly intense difficulty with coping with loud music, or just on the regular spectrum of not liking talking over it much? Because while I feel for you, I hate loud rooms too, a lot, the idea that it's impossible to politely communicate with someone having a conversation over loud music seems weird. You make eye contact, they eventually look at you and pause, and you lean in and shout in their ear.
100: That, exactly. Annoying as all get out, but that's the right thing to do, roughly.
Do you have a particularly intense difficulty with coping with loud music, or just on the regular spectrum of not liking talking over it much?
Me? I'm not sure, but the shouting-in-the-ear never seems successful. As in, I can't make out what they're saying, so I ask them to repeat it, and still can't understand, and finally just nod politely.
I find it very difficult to get lost in thought when the music is loud, so I can't start mentally planning out the next week or thinking about whatever math problem or something. So in that sense maybe I dislike it more than the average person? I'm generally picky about sounds.
No, 103 was to His Majesty. I'm terrible at it too, but if someone shouts in my ear and then walks away, even if I have no idea what exactly they said, I consider myself to have been politely informed that they're going someplace.
But yeah, I really, really, really despise parties where the music isn't at a conversational level, which means really very low for me. It's no fun at all. If you expect everyone to be dancing continuously, fine, crank it up, but that's never the case at the kind of parties I'm at, and it just makes conversation miserable and dull.
I have enough trouble tracking conversations within multiple participants. Loud music makes this even more exhausting.
Weddings are uniquely bad for that, I agree, having ben to one recently. And for God's sake, don't put the old people close to the band -- all the conversation is about how conversation is impossible.
That said, what one must do, imo, in the situation of the King, is smile (weakly) and daydream. Sit back and think of England that which must be done tomorrow.
101-106: No special excuses for me. I actually enjoyed most of the music, outside, where it was still plenty loud. I couldn't dance to it to save my life (mostly 80s and 90s hits, so not even the box-step could have saved me), but it was music that I'd listen to on the radio. (Which means it was not what the Queen chooses to listen to; she's not a fan of post-60s pop.)
Well, consensus seems to have moved. It sounds like the sense of the commentariat is that you suck it up, don't duck out, circle the room and keep an eye out for "save me" signals. Ugh. That sounds like a way to turn an already strained evening (make meaningless conversation with people you'll never see again for hours!) into a total chore. Or, really, it's just work--unpleasant, but a sacrifice made deliberately.
I don't like the new consensus, but I usually give shitty advice.
If you gotta duck out, you gotta check in first. Don't ghost!
King, how often do you have to go to weddings? I can tell it feels like a huge burden, but is this a once-a-year thing? More? Less? I do think talking about her about some of this now, while she's aware of what annoyed her, might be better than waiting to bring it up until next wedding. Maybe some of it's not as big a deal as you think it is and maybe she knows what she wants from you.
I suspect this is one of those situations, like doing long prison stints in solitary confinement, for which it helps to have committed a vast store of epic poetry to memory.
I didn't think it counted as ghosting if you didn't actually leave the party.
We had a string of eight weddings in a 12 month stretch that ended this past May. It was the absolute worst, even though I generally like weddings. Incredibly expensive - two in Kansas, one in Vegas, one in Atlanta, one in California, and three local - I was gigantically pregnant or recently post-pardem, and...well, that's mostly why it sucked.
112: Usually only once or twice a year. This year it'll be four, but one reception was very enjoyably non-traditional [trivia instead of dancing], and I expect one in October to be similar, or have gaming or a similar distraction. (October will also be much smaller, maybe 50-60 instead of 200 at the last wedding.)
113: I'd be perfectly okay with "entertain yourself". Heck, that's what escaping outside was. No, it's the forced repeated shallow interaction that makes it a grind. Maybe I'll just tack on a mental "would you like fries with that?" to all my transactions to keep me smiling.
That's the spirit. Just grind through the experience joylessly like the rest of us.
115: That's a crazy investment of time and money. Many of the 20-somethings I was talking with were talking about how expensive it is to be conscripted into a wedding.
In fact, during the board conversation between the wedding and reception, the other couple talked about how back when they married (at 25 and 22), they bought matching ties for the groomsmen and encouraged them to just wear a shirt and slacks to defray wedding specific expenses. They were very aware of them, since they'd just been subject to the same costs from their own peers' marriages.
I feel like most weddings venues have an escape-outside area that still counts as socializing and mingling. A little greenspace with ashtrays and benches or something. I think all eight of the ones from this past year did. (I did not attend the two in Kansas though.)
Whereas taking off to sit in your car in the parking lot, or wandering off to be by yourself, seems categorically different. For those in the Witt/LB camp, is there a distinction to be drawn?
Oh, if you're in a quieter part of the venue socializing with people, that's fine -- you don't have to stay glued to the speakers. You should be easy for your date to find, if you know what I mean -- disappearing is obnoxious even if you're still socializing -- but exactly what easy to find means depends on the venue.
Whatever you end up doing, I do recommend discussing all these issues well ahead of the next wedding so you all have a plan and reasonable expectations. Wedding weirdness will be well on its way to ramping up already on the drive TO a wedding - so just make sure to be having this conversation during a time when you are both relaxed and able to feel generous and understanding of each other.
I run out of gas at parties pretty fast and want to go hide someplace, but I firmly believe that I'm being terribly rude if I actually do it.
I'm often a hostess and that is so strange to me. Party over a dozen people? Someone leaves all the time. Fetching someone, fetching beer, out on the porch, coming back in. Parties fluctuate and the last thing I am keeping track of is who was in the party when.
I both love to ghost and love when guests ghost. Yes, they were here and are no longer here and I am happy to assume that they had a lovely time and want to see me again sometime when we can talk, yes yes. The parting is complete ritual and it interrupts the non-ritual conversation I was having with someone.
I also think the Queen should have been more explicit about her needs for him in advance. I will explicitly clear things with my boyfriend. Do you want me to be "on" or just friendly? Do you want to sneak away with the baby? Stuff like that.
It sounds like the sense of the commentariat is that you suck it up, don't duck out, circle the room and keep an eye out for "save me" signals.
My read is that this is the ideal, not that you need to live up to the ideal every time. You should, however, be somewhat conscious of negotiating when you plan to do less than that.
[I, on the other hand, would agree without your decision to just step outside. But I don't pretend that's etiquette advice, just what I would have done in the situation.]
having ben to one recently
Did he dance?
OK, is your spouse aware of this thread, and is her head exploding at the discussion of her behavior, or is she chiming in on the discussion?
75 & 76 are both wrong. Never trust lawyers or philosopher/ethicists.
You can do better.
125: Let unfogged arbitrate your relationship disputes! What could possibly go wrong?
125: The use of the name of a head of state (which is guess is now expanded to include a leader of moose?) is the locally accepted form of being temporarily more anonymous than you would be even with your pseud.
119, 120: I wish this venue had had such a space. It was one large room circled with tables for dinner, with a dance floor in the center. The restroom was in a corridor shared with the restaurant. The outside space I found was parking lot outside the rear-exit; people wandered in and out to smoke. There was a tug of war with property management; the party kept propping the door open because it was too hot inside, while security came around every 10 minutes and removed the chair, lecturing about noise.
121: Hmm... maybe I launch this conversation when I make the hotel reservation, or when we RSVP. That's usually a few weeks out, at least.
122: At a party, sure. I think a wedding is an extra level of formalism, with a much greater expectation that no one is actually enjoying themselves. Particularly as we approached it; we showed up because it was expected, and hoped that there would be less tedious parts of the evening to enjoy on a relative basis. (And there were pleasant and less tedious times, though not many once we were seated for the reception.)
123: Yes, it sounds like the default is less forgiving than I was imagining, and that I'll need to negotiate anything less than full press charm and circling until the evening's end.
125, 127, 128: No, unfogged is not something I share with her, and I'd never have been so forthright if it was being presented "neutrally" instead of from my POV.
It worked out well; 50 and 52 both reflect me seeing things more from her POV. 97 drove home that there's really no limitation on the night--once you're in, you're committed for the duration, you can't tap out for longer than a smoke break (and that only with notice).
Contrary to 122, I went into it thinking I'd make a game face party appearance effort, but needed to make a circling, engaged, "this is your job for the night" effort and just suck it up.
"Honey, I'm going to step out onto the Pacific Ghost Highway. I'll be back in a few."
I want to particularly thank AWB for 77-79, for really helping me think closely about the night from her point of view. Similarly, 85-87, particularly 87, did a good job of reminding me of challenges that she has overcome but still haunt her.
(Even Moby @ 1 was helpful for getting me to think about her background, instead of treating my vague and incorrect etiquette views as obviously correct.)
I was trying to show you how to explain to her that her views were incorrect.
132 Yes, I thought AWB's 87 was very wise.