It's not really hard to make tasty food.
But tastes do differ, and that's why it's good for restaurants to have large menus
That article was kind of like easy-listening music.
It coasts the surface. The message of the article is "eating at these restaurants is super-pleasant!". And it mimics the experience of eating at the restaurant by being very pleasant to read.
Is Cap City still in Columbus? That used to be pretty good and cheap, for what you got. They'd give you a bowl of little donuts if you went for brunch.
3: Yes. Cameron Mitchell has become a restaurant chain entrepreneur similar to the guy described in the article.
He tried to move to Pittsburgh, but failed (partially) because he didn't put enough fries on things.
5: I think he's in pretty good synch with his time. He sold his chain of steak restaurants for a huge pile of money in 2008 before the crash.
Well, I know we used to get a lot more fancy meals from vendors before 2008.
We call them "vending machines" but mostly just get chips from them.
I don't think I ever ate at the steakhouse, though I used to work close to the downtown one. I did eat at Mitchell's a couple of times. But mostly Cap City, because it was cheaper and had little donuts at brunch.
10: I knew that was coming as soon as I hit "Post".
But maybe there's somebody reading this other than you, Moby? Maybe somebody who has no idea what are the "vendors" I was referring to?
For you, my imaginary reader, I will explain. The vendors are companies like Westlaw and Lexis that provide legal research databases to law firms and would take lowly law librarians out for fancy lunches, simply because they had so much money that they didn't know what to do with it.
I stopped getting much less fancy lunches from drug companies about that same time. But not because of the crashing economy. It's because that's when I had to level-up my ethics.
Ha, I thought of Cameron Mitchell reading the post too. That was exactly his thing: very high probability of a pleasant but unspectacular meal with the "nice restaurant" feel as a focal point. Cap City was good, and there was like an Italian themed one north of downtown, but I can't remember what it was called.
Tapatio is the only Short North restaurant I can still name. I don't know if it is still there.
14: Martini's is the one you're probably thinking of.
Now there's also another one, Marcella's.
Someone who is both a Columbusite and legal publishing veteran, with 14 years at West, is reading this thread.
But Cameron Mitchell's rise was entirely after my time. In the 80s, before our kids were born and when my parents still went out, we'd go for the buffet at the old Jai Lai, which had once been a fairly expensive place. Bob Greene used to write endlessly about meeting Woody Hayes there, but we liked it anyway.
During your time, the 55 Group restaurants must have been there.
Based on this thread, you can assume that Columbus has more of a thriving restaurant culture than New York.
I've just read a thread of Columbus restaurant memories, and knew of some of the places on the list, but wasn't aware of 55's as such.
We were not restaurant people when I was growing up, and I think it has been established that I am history's worst date, so I know nearly nothing about this.
The only restaurant kids in the 60s talked about was the Kon Tiki.
18: I don't think so -- I think it died even before that.
I don't think that was still open when I was there. Somebody just opened a tiki bar near my house, but I haven't been yet. I'm afraid they won't have Yuengling.
I like small ethnic places as much as the next honky trying in furious vain to distinguish himself from the people who stuck around his crappy hometown, but there is something to be said for the fancy, imaginative places. TWYRCL and I couldn't get Noma reservations but we visited several other restaurants in the group and they were great. Bring on the smoldering fir needles! Rocks with dessert? Sure!
I don't think I get the same pleasure from being waited on that many people seem to. That's just not really any part of the joy of dining out for me.
Bring on the smoldering fir needles!
Bring it, tenderfoot.
28: This isn't the homoerotic poetry thread, ranger.
The article was so smooth and glowing with praise that I barely noticed its almost complete lack of content. Hillstone is great because... it has good artichoke dip, and their napkins have buttonholes?
Drove through Jack-in-the-Box last Friday. The service was prompt, courteous and unobtrusive, with just a hint of elegance when they asked about condiments.
Bob, if I ever need a restaurant critic, you're hired.
It was like a commercial -- it left you with that hollow feeling, you can only cure with a delicious meal at a Hillstone restaurant!
It coasts the surface. The message of the article is "eating at these restaurants is super-pleasant!". And it mimics the experience of eating at the restaurant by being very pleasant to read.
I agree with that. But, for some reason, it stuck with me, and that's why I was trying to figure out what about the article resonated.
there is something to be said for the fancy, imaginative places. TWYRCL and I couldn't get Noma reservations but we visited several other restaurants in the group and they were great. Bring on the smoldering fir needles! Rocks with dessert?
Absolutely, tell me more. I realized that I should have closed the post by asking about other people's stand-out restaurant experiences.
Hillstone is great because... it has good artichoke dip, and their napkins have buttonholes?
Consistency, attention to detail. I didn't get excited about any of the food that was described (though I appreciated the other details (everybody gets a booth, there's light, the servers are attentive, everything is cooked well in, "an open kitchen where a team of talented and dedicated noncelebrity chefs would turn out the food with uncompromised precision")
Kind of annoyed now that there are none anywhere near me. I wonder if their definition of perfect service meets mine, but mostly I wonder about the food, which looks fussy in the photos but sounds (mostly) great in the verbal descriptions.
I'm pleased with service about a third of the time*, but for me I think there's a baseline to clear, and beyond that it's hard for me to discern/care. Formally good service--everything done just so--matters much less than genuine warmth (if you can fake that...) combined with attentive competence.
*that's probably high if you actually counted reviews in which we comment on good service, but it feels about right; it's not a rarity, but it's certainly not half the time, either
What on earth. Houston's is nice and all, but really not that great.
I should mentioned, by the way, that the restaurant in which I got the excellent service described in the original post was Mr B's Biestro in New Orleans. Some of it may have been good fortune; we were there slightly early, before the dinner rush, on a weeknight, and I wouldn't assume that the service would be that good on another visit. But it also didn't seem like a coincidence. New Orleans seems like the kind of place where one might find excellent hospitality.
Formally good service--everything done just so--matters much less than genuine warmth (if you can fake that...) combined with attentive competence.
I just have a very low tolerance for service which feels pushy or intrusive, and I'd rather have a restaurant that doesn't try very hard than one that tries and doesn't get it right.
I think part of what's convincing about the article really is the argument from authority, because you need it: as an outline, it could apply to practically any sit-down chain ("the cheddar bay biscuits are so legendary that pop star..."), but the praise from legit elite restaurateurs like Chang is enough to convince me that there really is a there there. That, while the food concept is uninterestingly* mainstream, every aspect of execution is flawless in a way that engenders heartfelt respect.
*by foodie standards; I'm always happy to go to such places
The only information in the excerpt "an open kitchen where a team of talented and dedicated noncelebrity chefs would turn out the food with uncompromised precision" is that the kitchen is open. Everything else could be applied to any restaurant, inc. Jack in the Box.
I think the fact that the article didn't want to even get started describing the place without making it clear that the people in charge are motivated not by publicity but (presumably) by ascetic dedication to their craft set off my alarms. It reminded me of the Lapis Lazuli piece DFW's cruise ship essay orients itself around.
And I'll vouch for the idea that this sort of consistency/attention to detail really is rare. For over a decade, the consistent winner of "Best in the City" votes (among hoi polloi and insiders alike) has been this place called Eleven, and I have yet to experience a decent piece of meat there. A $45 steak should be flawless, but mine wasn't, and that's not the sort of thing that should ever happen at a place like that, let alone 3 times. I'm sure they usually get it right, and I don't doubt that there's a lot of attention to detail, but it's emblematic of how hard it is to achieve, chain or no.
We don't generally review chains, but we've been to two or three high end steakhouse chains (Capital Grill, Hyde Park, maybe another), and while the concept is the same, and they're ostensibly interchangeable*, I recall a distinct gap in overall experience (I think we liked Capital better? It's been probably 8 years). So those places are playing roughly the same game as Hillstone, their execution can't compare, even at (what I'm guessing are) higher prices.
*American masculinity, leather and dark paneling, but with just enough distinction that a regular customer can declare himself a partisan of one over the other
I used to go fairly regularly, because it was the "nice" place within a walk from my old office, so we would have special events for work there. It was pleasant, but I was honestly never moved to return of my own accord. Sometimes it was loud, which I absolutely hate, and it was always full of bros. I don't really remember the food other than it was fine, and that it was the kind of standard American food I don't usually order.
This article reads to me like sponsored copy, but I guess now I'm curious enough that I'll have to go back sometime.
Houston's? I probably went there 3x/month for many years, until they closed the one near my office. It's ... inoffensive and OK. Not particularly cheap relative to other restaurants. And always very crowded at lunch. The Toyota Camry of restaurants.
I think part of what's convincing about the article really is the argument from authority,
Agreed, The David Chang quote, for example, does a lot to sell it. But I'd add that the author (who says of himself, "My annual Hot 10 list of the best new restaurants in America is a who's-who of the odd, one-of-a-kind restaurants that food writers just can't wait to discover") seem to believe what he's selling.
On one hand, there's clearly an element of food fantasy to the article, and I'm sure that it can't completely live up to that sales pitch (how many of us have eaten anything of which we would say that it "haunts" us). On the other hand I appreciated that what it's selling is consistency and attention to detail which I think are important virtues in a restaurant.
The Toyota Camry of restaurants.
If you're skeptical of the article I will add this as a reason to doubt. He mentions NBA stars eating there in ATL (Shaq and Dominique Wilkins) and the restaurant that I most associate with NBA players in the Cheesecake factory, so I don't take that as a notable endorsement.
I've always thought of the Toyota Camry as the Cap City Diner of cars.
The Shaq rec is the most convincing part! Cheesecake Factory has large portions for a low price with lots of vegetables on the menu. It's no Chipotle, but what is.
BTW since there are other Chicagoans in the thread: have any of you tried Pockets AKA God's restaurant-gift to humanity?
39.last: I agree, although 13 years of exposure has raised my tolerance for mildly intrusive.
41.1 is IMO badly misinformed about the state of most restaurant kitchens, chain or otherwise. Chinese and Thai restaurants, frex, are renowned for being opened by talented, non-celebrity chefs who then move on to the next opening, leaving the cooking to a barely-trained replacement. And even factory-style behemoths like McDonalds don't approach "uncompromising precision": order three Big Macs and set them side by side, and they won't look close to identical.
The target for these places is absolutely the sort of person whose food tastes are reasonably refined, but not fussy. That is, they really are happier with a nicer preparation*, and they know the difference between a better and worse cut of meat, but they're not thrill seekers, and they don't look down their noses at the familiar. But what that sort of person wants for a nice meal out, more than anything, is an enjoyable experience. And that means good lighting, no wobbles, great service, and no surprises.
*think the difference between an old-fashioned, red sauce Italian place and a modern, regional one. Deep-fried chicken under commodity canned tomato sauce and supermarket mozzarella vs. house-breaded breast with good quality crushed tomato sauce and fresh mozzarella.
No one goes to the Cheesecake Factory. The lines are too long!
I see Vlade Divac sometimes at this Bosnian spiced meat restaurant I'm into. I would take that guy's food advice.
I realized that I should have closed the post by asking about other people's stand-out restaurant experiences.
Well, for a period you could have a really killer meal at Ammo in Los Angeles, and prior to that at a place owned by evil fuckers in Brooklyn that briefly had the privilege of having my sister be the de facto chef de cuisine.
51 is arguably racist, so I should also mention that I saw pre-Khloe Lamar Odom once at the excellent soul restaurant near my house, and would probably trust his food choices, though not lifestyle ones.
Come to think of it, Ammo is also owned by an evil fucker.
"Bosnian spiced meat" is exactly the sort of thing I am unsurprised that Tigre is into.
how many of us have eaten anything of which we would say that it "haunts" us
The spaghetti and giant meatballs (no tomato sauce) Miss Mott made for us in her penthouse apartment on East 51st in 1979. In adulthood, I failed to get her to remember anything about them, except that the meat likely came from Esposito's. This has been a constant of my entire life.
The chili cheese dog from Station Street hot dogs (the fancy version, with brisket and curds).
The sourdough rolls at the little restaurant across the street from my dad's Coral Gables office.
The chocolate chip cookies from Five Points Bakery (still there, thank god).
Those are just the ones I think of often. Others come to mind unbidden, but infrequently.
The chili cheese dog from Station Street hot dogs (the fancy version, with brisket and curds).
I once had occasion to talk to some people from a social service agency near there. They called it "Hundred Dollar Hot Dogs."
I don't want any of the "8 secret recipes", except maybe the Thai steak salad.
59: Most of the dogs were $3, $4, or $5, IIRC. But you could go up to $8 if you got one with fried oysters on it. They had to kill the duck fat fries after a few months, I think because nobody was willing to pay $8 for them when the regular $3 ones were really, really, really good.
I'm just saying that $5 seems like a lot for a hot dog.
I prefer upscale dining but can't afford it nearly as often as I'd like.
58: good response. On that note, here's what I'd list
A margherita pizza at a brewery restaurant in town (now closed), in which the tomatoes were simply perfect. It was the only time I ate at that brewery, and I've never had a margherita pizza since that matched it.
The locally made beef jerky that I remember from my childhood -- very garlicky, and with a texture that I've never found again.
Calamari at an Argentinian/Italian restaurant in Brooklyn, which was right on the border of pleasure/pain for me -- tasty but absurdly salty. I should have sent it back, but I remember chewing each piece slowly and having this initial bust of salty tomato sauce which gradually gave way to the chewy seafood blandness of calamari, and then repeating the process.
Salt and pepper calamari at a seafood restaurant in Richmond which I had last fall and which was simple but perfectly done.
Huh, there's one of these Hillstone places within walking distance of my job, and it's lunch time. Should I try it and report back?
Hopefully there's no wait. Might wait an hour or so for the lunch rush to settle down.
That's the smart play.
I always used to take my lunch when I worked midtown Manhattan at around 2 to miss the lunch rush.
(Now I only get a half hour and don't take any lunch at all.)
My first ever job was as the drive thru chick at a jack in the box and I nearly got canned bc this guy I knew who'd dropped out of school to play baseball for some farm team spent a lot w time parked in the drive through hanging out. He was super super cute and am excellent maker out but had already had a very sad life and I knew the whom summer I couldn't fix him.
I'm pleased with service about a third of the time*, but for me I think there's a baseline to clear, and beyond that it's hard for me to discern/care. Formally good service--everything done just so--matters much less than genuine warmth (if you can fake that...) combined with attentive competence.
I dunno, I couldn't really care less about warmth. I just want my food (and almost as importantly the bill) to arrive promptly and correctly, and for them to be willing to accommodate dietary etc requests. Food quality is vastly more important to me than service, and slightly more important than overall atmosphere - too much noise is a dealbreaker unless I'm dining alone.
I don't know why Jack in the Box expected you would be able to fix him. That seems unfair.
I'm nervous; I want it to be good.
If they have the brussel sprouts mentioned at the end of the article you should order them.
excellent maker out
Now I'm curious, what is the correct way to phrase that (or is that correct)?
Fortunately proof-reading isn't a major requirement in the food service industry.
At work we often order in dinner. Today: pork dumplings. Plain but juicy.
Well, I poked my head in both Hillstone and the R+D Kitchen. Both had long waits and excellent smells but I felt a bit underdressed for them and didn't want to sit around all of those people alone. Maybe I'll don a nicer button down and pair of jeans later this week and go with a co-worker.
Though the eavesdropping would have been fun, I opted for a more downscale lunch spot.
Live blog it and you'll never be lonely. Or underdressed.
I'm just saying that $5 seems like a lot for a hot dog.
It's a hot dog I'm still thinking about, 16 months after I last had one. Plus, it was pretty much a full meal: I'd have one with an order of fries, and I never finished the fries, or got more than halfway through, really.
I had them and know they are good. I'm just saying the people who run a soup kitchen think the concept is amusing.
I only eat at fancy restaurants on other people's dimes, so I usually enjoy them immensely. If I were thinking about the cost/enjoyment ratio, it would probably dampen my enjoyment. I do occasionally get forced into a group meal at some trendy overpriced place, and the anxiety over spending money I don't really have on something that isn't how I want to spend it can frequently dampen my enjoyment to the point I regret going. I am by nature a miser, so I need to work on not letting concerns about money ruin what might otherwise be a good night.
Ok, now that I've read the article, I can see the appeal, and it's not the service. It's the idea of going to a not-that-expensive place and not having to guess which menu items that sound good will end up massacred by a mediocre kitchen.
Except, now that I've looked it up, the menu prices are every bit as expensive as a fancy place ($18 burger, $14 spinach and artichoke dip, $25-40 entree).
So now I don't get it anymore.
I can get a burger, fresh cut fries, and four Yeungling for $18 (before tip, if I go the right night).
I have trouble suppressing my inner Mennonite which ruins most even moderately expensive restaurants for me, because all I can think when the food comes out is whether or not whatever I ordered is twice as good as the food costing half as much at one of the less expensive but really good restaurants in the city. (Sometimes it is! Not usually.) I'd like to say it's because I have very little money, but the truth is it doesn't matter who's paying so clearly it isn't.
Jean-George. That is all. (At least, it's true at lunch--and I should say EVEN at lunch, because I don't have what it take to go at other times of day...)
You know, I'm not sure when the last time I got an entire meal that I ate at a table in the place where I purchased the food for $8. (I can get dim sum in Oakland's Chinatown for that much that would, I guess, make up a meal, and those places have a few tables, but I'd be really limiting my options if that were it.) After tax + tip + probably I'll get something to drink even the inexpensive Chinese/Indonesian/Salvadoran/etc. place is going to be around $15, and I certainly wouldn't be certain that some place where mains start at $15 would be "probably worse". I mean, possibly worse!
In conclusion: where does NickS dine? Do they serve crack?
Pho is still $8 after tax and the Salvadorean place is under $10. Thai will run you more like $15 total and Indian has gotten really expensive if you want naan (~$20-25). Mexican is terrible in Seattle and Chinese is surprisingly hard to find.
I have had some really fantastic meals (not on my dime) at Nobu, Gordon Ramsey's place in Los Angeles, Blue Hill (only partially on my dime and we got free stuff since (a) I gave beer to the kitchen and (b) my sister worked there though I don't think she was there that particular night), Incanto, that place of Mario Batali's whose name I can't remember, and several more other places that have clothes for the table and cost more than $18, and while I wouldn't say that any of them "haunts" me (because that is a phrase that I don't go in for in the first place), they were all totally worthwhile.
I suppose I could get a couple of banh mi at Saigon Sandwich (maybe, haven't been in ages) or three tacos at Taqueria Vallarta for under $8, but what if I want a coke too?
This article really does read like a dressed-up press release and is inducing much eye-rolling.
"Each table also gets its own (literal) spotlight, meaning that you can read the menu without pulling out your phone for help--something my mom was quick to point out."
This is not noteworthy! Where the fuck do you normally dine, Mom?
"Where else but Hillstone can you order sushi and ribs on the same menu?"
If not the Cheesecake Factory itself, its slightly tonier cousin?
Time was you could get four tacos and a coke at Vallarta for $7.50.
91
There is a pizza/sushi restaurant in my neighborhood that is, like everything in the neighborhood, mediocre and overpriced. And also, you really don't want to eat in a place that serves both, because it does neither well. (And the smell is really unappetizing).
You know, I'm not sure when the last time I got an entire meal that I ate at a table in the place where I purchased the food for $8.
I was thinking pre tax-and-tip, and that is the low-end (a large bowl of quite good soup at the nearest chinese restaurant), $10 would be more average.
But the last time I was in Richmond, for example, I got two good meals for around $10CAD. One was here* the other was a small Chinese BBQ place who's name I can't remember.
* It wasn't quite as good as the reviews claim. The meat was tasty but not exceptional, but the fresh pita bread was excellent. And it did have a line, 10 minutes after it opened -- it clearly has a loyal clientele.
Just had my first taste of hemp caesar salad dressing tonight. I was very favorably impressed.
83: Happy Hour cheeseburger, fries and four pints of decent beer would run $17 by itself at my local -- although it's kinda stupid to order their burgers (even though they're quite decent) because this amazing lunch counter down the street does the best burgers and similar (hot dogs, bratwurst, dagoes, etc.) in town, maybe anywhere. And the dive bar closest to it (the lunch counter) is one of the most storied and awful in the city. But I go to the other place anyway, because they're nicer and more inclined to share a funny story or give me a free drink. And I never see anyone I'm feuding with there.
IKR? It's a combination of a hamburger and an Italian sausage. There's a few places in town, mostly in the old Russian/Polish/Italian neighborhood, where they serve them, and then this place on the West Bank that I was tellin' you about.
Some of my best friends are Italian-American sandwiches.
Dagoes, the best known dish in New Guinean cuisine.
I think so, yeah. Maybe if it had been an Italian colony rather than Dutch/British/German.
I ate a place in a food court in Richmond BC where you put down a deposit to get your bowl and got the money back when you returned it. That's luxury.
Those must have been some hella fancy bowls.
If customers like FA want to come and eat your whole place you need some surety up front.
Yeah, pho is probably your best bet in central London for a tasty, filling meal under $8 equivalent. The place I go for lunch near St Paul's does an awesome pho, with the best broth of any I've had in London, for £6.50. It'd be much cheaper round my neck of the woods, but I don't eat out much in the evenings here.
Time was when you could get fish and chips for £1.40 and fish and really horrible sausage for £1.10.
Speaking of central London, looks like I may get a short business trip there in early June.
You should try the fried fish. It's very good.
Fish and chips is crazy expensive in central London, unless you go to somewhere really crappy. It's easily £10-£11 at a half-decent gaff for a regular fish and chips. I guess that's partly the cod shortage, but it's not like the less endangered fish are much cheaper.
This is not noteworthy! Where the fuck do you normally dine, Mom?
I'm sure your sainted mother's eyesight remains eagle-keen, but my MIL complains about the lighting at more or less every restaurant we take her to. That detail rang extremely true to me. Even setting aside blatantly hipstery/atmospheric places (the kind where even young adults might need to squint a bit at the menu), I'd say fully half the non-chain restaurants out there are dim for the yes of 70-y.o.s.
112: I think the sausage has very, very little actual meat.
112: Then try the pierogies.
[That's a Western PA Lenten fish fry joke].
But, I think having trouble reading in dim light is a lifelong process. I turn on the lights when my son is reading because it hurts my eyes to think about reading in dim light, but it clearly doesn't bother him in the least.
I also make him sit back from the television for reasons that I don't even understand.
I think regret over cost of food is most common in medium fancy restaurants. When you go somewhere really fancy, it's a special experience and the cost is no surprise, and you have no regrets. It's when you go somewhere pretty nice and pay thirty or forty bucks for salmon and a veggie that you think, that was good, but I could have made something very much like it at home for a fraction of the price.
118 is right. I've never regretted a meal that cost more than $60/person.
I think I've only had one meal that cost more than $60/person, unless we're including drinks. It was at the above-mentioned Eleven. It was a great dinner.
If any of you folks wants to take me to dinner at Paws Up, I'd be willing to go.
Not sure I'd go to Pie Camp, but $800 per night per person for three nights is surely a good deal for that.
re: 113
My local chippie* i.e. not a sit-down place, a proper chippie,** it would be about 8 - 9 quid a head for fish and chips. Slightly more if you fancy something slightly more exotic.
Non-fish 'suppers'*** are cheap, though. Sausage, or burger, or whatever. Well under a fiver.
* https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g186338-d2242363-Reviews-Golden_Chip-London_England.html
** admittedly, a pretty decent chippie
*** Scottish term for $thing plus chips.
122: They're trying to trademark "glamping"?
re: 110
Maybe a meetup can be arranged?
Natilo: Spill on the names of your places.
I think regret over cost of food is most common in medium fancy restaurants.
I think that's true, but I also have very little experience with fancy restaurants.
As far as meals over $60, I did a chef event, and I had no regrets about the cost, but I did regret the time involved. It made me realize that I don't want to sit around eating dinner for 3 hours (and the sitting was definitely part of my objection, if I could have gotten up and wondered around, it would have been more comfortable).
I wish more places would have little plates on conveyor belts going past the customers. There's no need to for it to just be sushi.
Conjugal harmony tip: do not complain to your beloved about 3-4 hour work lunches at the Fr laundry. But my god the fanny fatigue! Too long.
Sort of related: I remember in graduate school we were all sitting around complaining about our apartments. One woman volunteered that her fireplace made a loud hissing noise.
I think 118 gets it right. Just about the only time we talk about price in our meals is at places that are at that price level but are failing to deliver more than what you could find for $25 elsewhere (and sometimes delivering less).
The only chef's dinner type thing I've done was at a table in the kitchen, and we were welcome to wander around between courses, looking over shoulders and asking questions. It was quite lovely. I don't recall any other meals surpassing 2 hours, although I'm sure I've been to some. What comes to mind are brunch buffets and churrascarias, places where A. you're getting up and down to fill plates, and B. you're with a bunch of friends hanging out, rather than sitting more formally and constrained.
114: I am chastened and retract my sputtering.
118 is the reason we almost never go out to dinner these days.
125: Oh, yes, that was very much implied. I was trying to come up with a suitably Arrakian venue. Maybe the Spice Trader.
Another person agreeing with 118.
$18-$24 is fine. Once it gets above that, then my expectations go up dramatically.
125 I certainly hope we can arrange a meetup. I'll ask for a post somewhat closer to the date (first weekend of June) and once I know for certain that I'm going.
Is 135 also ttaM?
But my god the fanny fatigue! Too long.
In keeping with a possible London meetup, I'm choosing to read this in Knifecrimean.
When you go somewhere really fancy, it's a special experience and the cost is no surprise, and you have no regrets.
I'd add something to this. If you look over a menu and expect things to work out to about $30/person and then, by the end of the meal it's actually $40/person (the table got a few appetizers and somebody ordered the special) you might feel surprised. But if you go to a meal expecting it to be $60-80$/person and it ends up being $90 you probably won't care because that still falls into the category of "expensive splurge."
139 is right.
One thing that has developed of late--which is probably familiar to commenters in famously expensive coastal locales--is the rising floor. I swear it was only 5 years ago that buyers above $10 were the province of obviously overpriced joints, or perhaps one extra-special burger (wagyu or with caviar or whatever), but now we'll frequently go to fairly unremarkable gastropubs and be confronted with $15 burgers. Every entree is between $15 and $25, which makes what seems like a casual evening out end up over $100 for four, and that's with modest alcohol if any.
That's annoying.
For example, the ale house up the street from my work offers half-pound burgers of, "All Natural Grass Fed Painted Hills" beef ground in house and cooked to order. The online menu doesn't include prices (?) but I'm guessing that's over $15 for a standard burger.
On the other hand, there's this joint in London called Burger and Lobster, which is exactly what it sounds like. Except that that the burgers cost exactly the same as the lobster, which is quite reasonably priced for lobster (by UK/London standards, which is not very cheap at all). So the idiots buying the £20 burger meals are subsidising the people buying the lobster, which I'm perfectly cool with.
The rising floor is definitely a thing. Expensive cocktails (at very large markups) is another thing. It's hard to get out of a mid-level place for under $50pp unless you go booze-free or stick with a single beer.
143: The one in NYC isn't that great. One can find a superior burger or a superior lobster roll at that price point in Manhattan without much trouble.
Sigh, I miss our "expensive cocktail" place (it close due to a weird family/rent dispute). Many people wouldn't go there because it was "too expensive", but they had fantastic artistic cocktails for like $8 or $9 each.
In my experience lobster (and seafood generally) is not particularly expensive in the (coastal) US. Not so
England. It's become a bit more reasonable in recent years, but when it first opened, B+L was materially cheaper than anywhere else in London. And it's still better than most. The equivalent deal at the closest comparable, Belgo, is £28.
I can't really speak to the lobster roll, as I always just go for the lobster proper, which isn't spectacular but definitely worth it at that price. And I'd agree the burger can be easily beaten. That's my point - the people overpaying for their so-so burgers are helping keep the lobster cheaper for me than it would be otherwise.
146
Where do you guys live? The 90s? 8-9 dollars is not an expensive cocktail. An expensive cocktail at a medium-ish fancy place here costs $11-16, and that's a lot cheaper than NY or SF. Cheap cocktails at hipster bars* cost $8-10.
*The kind with $1 cans of Old Style and $1 mystery shots.
$1 cans of Old Style
Address please.
Let's all share our SAT scores, incomes, and the tab for the most expensive meal we've ever eaten.
126: My local is the Tr/ple Rock, and I was then referring to the W/enery and Pa/mer's.
For fancy cocktails, I think I'll probably be going to Eat Str33t Social more often now -- they have, like, imported special guest bartenders and stuff.
Inn at Little Washington for the wife's 50th birthday. I never need to spend that much for food again.
Here's their current cocktail menu.
We took a visiting faculty presenter out to dinner and a medium-ish fancy tapas place, and the total tab was I believe something like $1500 for 11 people. Alcohol pushed up the tab.
149
I assumed Pittsburgh would be full of those places. Here, travel to any sort of rundown area and find the group of bearded white people smoking outside, and you're within 20 feet of really cheap bad beer.
152
I had to do multiple double takes to make sure the wine was priced by the glass not the bottle.
$16 is expensive for a cocktail in SF.
SAT scores, incomes, and the tab for the most expensive meal we've ever eaten.
SAT scores I won't do because the era are incomparable, unless done with something like percentage ranking. Top 1%
Household Income: roughly $80k, more with bonuses now than raises and salary. House paid off, but she just surprised me with a Nissan SUV. Sigh. I'm still driving the 23 year old Ford, for 1/2 hour a week.
Most expensive meal:Never done one, never had the desire. Something like a Fridays maybe. I worked at the bottom in a couple five table restaurants, with chefs, but was never impressed or interested in the food. I suppose this also means I don't socialize with types that will drag me to places. Damn right I don't.
Let's all post our bank account numbers and PINs.
153: I haven't looked, but I have not seen any Old Style here. People mention places for $1 PBR, but I can't drink a PBR unless I'm already drunk.
148: One of the college towns listed on the other thread. The upside is that for a while we had a cocktail place that could legitimately stand up to one of the best (though probably not the best) pre-prohibition-style cocktail bars in SF or NYC (our favorite bartender had worked at Death & Company as his last gig) but which only charged $8-$9 a drink. The downside is that when one of the owners couldn't work out a new rental deal with his step-mom we now have zero good cocktail places. That's the plus and minus of a good small town right there. There's a fine line between 0 and 1, and when you have 1 it's great and when you have 0 it's sad.
Also true of the difference between zero and one Manhattans.
Anyhow I kind of hate cocktail innovation. I appreciate the cocktail revolution bc all of a sudden the classics got better but just stick to the 10 or so great cocktails, stock good whiskey, and leave it at that. I don't need to know about somebody's new and different take on the whatever. A drink should be like a familiar old friend to steady you through life, not some impressive new technology.
I agree. Cocktails are either amazing, standard or a waste of good booze. I've had perhaps 5 or so of the former, and all the rest are about evenly split between the latter two.
Nearly all variations on a Manhattan would be better if you just made a damn Manhattan with some good vermouth. More than 75% of all gin drinks are markedly inferior to a martini or G&T. And all vodka drinks suck (seriously, why would you).
Exception: Campari. Negronis and Boulevardiers are both at least as good as martinis and Manhattans, and often better.
Boulevardiers and sazeracs are I think $4 where I get them, which seems low. The lesbian bar has mixed drinks for $2 or something ridiculous but they pour so heavily (at least for people they know) that you can't have anything good. But you can get a bourbon and Coke and a Coke for that price and that's three or four drinks' worth.
I don't drink cocktails in general because extreme lightweight, but the one schmancy cocktail I had recently (~December) was, IIRC, the garam masala buttered rum at this place. That was a haunting-class drink. (I also saw triple and barely made it down the street to the car without vomiting, just so we're clear, but it was about 98% worth it.)
The closest Bosnian restaurant is at least an hour away, so you can't have everything. (Though you can make your spiced meats at home if you're willing to do the work, which alas I'm not since cevapcici are amazing, though not amazing enough that I'm going to figure out how to type the right cs on this keyboard. Izvini.)
Since I am poor, I mostly drink at home, and recently I've been drinking what I call the poor man's whiskey sour. It involves 2 oz Early Times (the champagne of bottom shelf whiskey), 2 oz lime/lemon juice (from plastic bottle), and about 2-4 oz ginger ale. Since someone left grenadine at my house, sometimes I mix in a 1sp of grenadine to be fancy. It's a nice balance of sour and sweet.
166: It's bad enough that every single episode of Hollywood Game Night has a lesbian on it!
Boulevardiers and sazeracs are I think $4 where I get them, which seems low.
Seems GREAT.
164, 170
Clear Red state advantage.
I dunno, I rarely order cocktails but I'm pretty sure they're very expensive here in my red state, just like everything else.
The bar of the hotel where the APA is being held serves cocktails for $15–17, which I still claim is expensive, and I am bolstered in this claim by the prices here (people who were in town for the long-ago MLALA might recall going there!).
Admittedly, the drinks at the hotel bar have a higher "fancy" quotient. Are they better, though? I don't know, because I'm certainly not ordering one.
I was once on a boat for rich people where I ordered a $35.00 glass of chardonnay just because I could. It was pleasant but not that much. Round us you can pay $20 for a burger without trying, although it is in at least one case a very good burger.
Exception: Campari.
I visited the isolated Bahamian island, population 250, where 80% of the people is engaged in the business of collecting the bark that is used to flavor Campari. Aside from a few fishing lodges, its about the only economic activity available.
They just got flattened by a hurricane last year, so people need to do their part to help by drinking more Campari.
170: It is! I'm guessing maybe $4.50 is the happy hour price given that it's the ludicrous Sunday bloody mary price and so they'd maybe be $5 or $5.50 normally. I need to get a babysitter and get back sometime because there was some sort of rosemary-infused vermouth the bartender had made for the negroni last time, maybe can even manage to do it before pub trivia ends when the queer softball league begins.
Pancakes and a sandwich on a bloody mary?
One of the bartenders at my usual place was complaining about how they don't let him try more drinks that involve infusing stuff. On occasion, he does have a special that has something like that. I always order one, because I believe in encouraging young people, but mostly I agree with 161 except that I don't really drink cocktails much at all.
Buying a new drink is about as far as I'm willing to go to encourage young people. I'm not going to vote for Sanders or anything.
Unless he wins the primary. I'll vote for him in the general, of course.
He made a hot Cheetos-infused tequila for maximum disgustinginess and then paid people to drink it, but that may have been largely my brother's fault.
I think the bloody mary with a million toppings is gross (as is the kale, sorry) and have only had it once to be supportive, but they're popular and I swear my facebook feed has a different person every Sunday showing one off.
I pretty much won't drink anything with tomato juice in it anyway.
The bar at our local ski area is repeatedly voted best bloody mary in town. I usually just drink shots, though.
Irish whiskey.
You don't seem to know much about skiing.
I haven't skied since 1992. I also haven't skied before 1992.
Just last night at the Ace Hotel restaurant, most of their house cocktails were $10 or $11. I wanted to try the East Liberty (their version of a Manhattan, made with local rye, vermouth I don't remember, and cocoa bitters), but I guess it's cask aged and they were out, so I just got a regular Manhattan (which had a call whiskey but was otherwise similar). I assume it was less than $10.
The trouble with fancy cocktail places is that the pricing goes all the way down. I get why you might charge $15 for top shelf whiskey mixed with fancy vermouth and housemate bitters, but that's no reason to charge almost as much for a Tanqueray and tonic.
How much do they charge for Aristocrat and tonic?
I had some very good cocktails at my sendoff meetup at the Campbell Apartment last May. Aviations. Very tasty and left me wanting to drink some again. Thanks to a commenter here who sent them back because they weren't made right the first time. But after that, tasty.
Speaking of drinking I've just been at a friend's (a crazy in a good way Aussie guy) who I'm working on a great project with and I'm hammered on some very peaty scotch. I don't usually drink much, nothing really since that send off meetup.
The sane ones are what you need to look out for when you're dealing with Australians.
Speaking of drinking I've just been at a friend's (a crazy in a good way Aussie guy) who I'm working on a great project with and I'm hammered on some very peaty scotch. I don't usually drink much, nothing really since that send off meetup.
For some reason this makes me think of the scene in Swimming To Cambodia when Spalding Gray is describing getting stoned on the beach with the South African man (this one).
I love that movie, and I loved him. RIP.
Dude wears a ghutra and plays the bagpipes. In public. A real character. One of my favorite people here, or anywhere for that matter.
He was telling me a story once about someone who he described as a real strange character and all I can think of at the time was "have you looked in the mirror lately?"
Because my life is basically Piketty as performance art, I had a $1200 dinner for two. Before tip, but Canadian dollars.
Even converting for Canadian dollars, yes. The venison tenderloin toward the end nearly felled me.
I didn't know Tim Horton's served venison.
Luckily for you, 3% is the standard tip in Canada.
Sadly, I had to go elsewhere for rabbit poutine.
I checked: the non-special Manhattan was $12, plus a $2 for a call (Woodford). So the cocktail list is that rarity, a specials list that's actually special (good booze cheap-ish).