Re: Guest Post - Differential Self Delusion

1

Reminds me of The Marriage Plot when Mitchell thinks "what if you died and went to heaven, and what if all the people you met there were people you didn't like?"


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 2:13 PM
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Those are some really small babies.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 2:55 PM
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3

It amuses me to picture the Supreme Court that decided Dred Scott trying to make sense of this.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 2:58 PM
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we were willing to accept any child except a fully Caucasian child

Everybody knows you never go full Caucasian.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 3:02 PM
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5

I'm torn between thinking that they are genuinely living the good implications of their beliefs, and feeling like the article reminded me of the Royal Tenenbaums.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 3:16 PM
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I had a similar reaction, assuming you also are annoyed by Wes Anderson.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 3:18 PM
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I hope their church will kick in to help pay for college and weddings. Otherwise, they'll never be able to afford in Brooklyn, let alone the Hamptons.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 3:19 PM
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8

No come on. The little black girl who weeps with joy because a black kid has white parents? These people are fucked up fantasists.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 3:33 PM
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9

Christianity has a strong foundation of self-congratulation built into it, even in the most liberal/humble/not obnoxious sects or churches. And people who spend a lot of time as missionaries probably don't find that bit of it uncomfortable. So that's certainly part of the reason children-as-personal-expression is likely to show up more obviously in the more aggressive/conservative adoptive parents.

And there's probably some of that here, along with a whole bunch of 'well-meaning, but...' white person stuff. But given the way he talks about the whole thing I'm guessing that there's just as much of the hormonal "look it's a baby this is the most important thing ever, we are fulfilling a grand project of meaningful awesomeness I also have five hundred pictures here let me show them to you" thing that new parents tend to get.


Posted by: MHPH | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 3:35 PM
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10

8: I didn't read that far.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 3:36 PM
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11

9.2 makes me want to put 600 baby occurred in the pool.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 3:38 PM
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12

I think Moby is talking about posting a photo of his sperm, but I can't be sure.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 4:10 PM
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13

That too, but mostly "occurred" should be "pictures".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 4:12 PM
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Stupid pine.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 4:13 PM
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Is none of you humorless reprobates going to make an "I was born a poor black child" joke?


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 4:58 PM
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I'm watch the Powerpuff Girls with a fully Caucasian child (assuming it's settled that Italians count as human now) and I just noticed a math error. The smart one was asked for the square root of seven and she answered that there isn't one because seven is a prime number. And she was told that was the right answer. I guess I contact the producers so they can fix it but I don't know if I also need to call the FCC.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 5:04 PM
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"I'm not worried about them losing sight of their children's well-being."

And I thought writing, let alone publishing, the article was more than sufficient evidence of children's well being having already been misplaced in the parental self regard shuffle! Difference in reaction likely due at least in part to my lack of contact in daily life with out and proud missionaries. I suspect I know a few closeted ones.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 6:02 PM
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18

Times have changed. Not trying for a reality TV show is the new humility.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 7:25 PM
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19

Wait a sec, how is this prolife? They "adopted" embryos -- doesn't that mean someone with a test tube or two actually made their be embryos to implant? You can't just go around vacuuming out the contents of wombs to see if there are any unimplanted embryos hanging out there (except in Mississippi probably.)


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 7:41 PM
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She carried the embryos to term, preventing them from being left in a freezer until they spoiled, which would be the functional equivalent of abortion. Or that's the thought.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 7:46 PM
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I am stuck in a hotel room in fresno hence watching tv and being driven INSANE with rage by revolting idiots in docu on sherpas strike. Dudes actually allowed themselves to be filmed referring to sherpas as being "owned"! Is it possible to just have them summarily ejected from humanity?


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 7:57 PM
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I bet a sherpa could carry a lot of embryos to Everest, if not to term.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 8:08 PM
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apparently the only thing standing between me and insanity is lack of tv in normal life.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 8:20 PM
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Anyway, if it makes you feel better, whole bunches of those not-sherpa guys who climb Everest wind up dead because people aren't supposed to be up that high without a pressurized cabin and a small bag of pretzels.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 8:20 PM
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25

I won't link to it, but a Google image search for that is a good way to avoid sleeping.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 8:30 PM
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Share the hate, dq, what's the name of the Sherpa docu?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 8:33 PM
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Don't hotel TVs still rent porn if the regular TV isn't watchable?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 8:38 PM
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In a better world, there would be regulations requiring climbing companies to pay into a fund providing for Sherpas to be paid even in years when climbing is for safety reasons impossible.


Posted by: One of Many | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 8:46 PM
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29

It's on discovery I think? Features some revolting Australian named brice referring unself consciously as being "owned".


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 8:50 PM
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apparently the only thing standing between me and insanity is lack of tv in normal life.

I have observed many times that television's effect on my blood pressure and general sense of rage is profoundly negative. It's one of the reasons I love Twitter as accompaniment to TV events -- instead of being enraged, I get to be flooded with real-time snark, intelligent rebuttals, and other reactions that affirm the sanity and general humaneness of the world in spite of televised appearances to the contrary.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 8:51 PM
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If you can watch the sane tv there bf as me off the 41 in fresno, whoa. Also I think I ate too much garlic to go kiss granny goodnight. I'm firmly in camp "fade out on a cloud of morphine" and I suspect all the garlic would interfere with the process for her. 😞


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 8:53 PM
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same not sane

I think the better solution is no tv, not tv + twitter.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 8:56 PM
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19: Here, let them explain it to you!

Or I guess long story short a bunch of pro-life people who hadn't thought about it long enough to realize it's just a bunch of rhetoric to cover over creepy misogynist stuff realized that in vitro fertilization involves making a whole bunch of embryos to implant and not all of them get used. But they're people! Therefore they should be adopted and also implanted in other people. It's what happens when people who aren't very bright get high on their own supply.


Posted by: MHPH | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 8:56 PM
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I thought that the guy who talked about the 'owners' of the Sherpas was American. Brice was a different guy, the Australian (New Zealander?) head of the climbing company. #notallaustralians


Posted by: One of Many | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 8:58 PM
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35

was both.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 9:00 PM
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36

8 is correct


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 9:04 PM
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37

For their own purposes, the travel gods decreed that I spend an extra 20 hours in Ft Lauderdale, most of which I spent watching hotel tv. What a wasteland cable tv is. (And no, there weren't movie or porn channels. Maybe it's just Florida?)


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 9:35 PM
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Speaking pf travel gods, why does the back seat of every cab in this town looks like it has been peed in? Maybe it's rampant ass sweat, it certainly gets hot enough here.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-23-16 10:16 PM
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37: I'm really excited that if we switch the cable bill from Tim's name to mine we can get a new customer deal which will allow us to pay less for the same package plus HBO or Showtime and about the same or a bit less for both of them.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 5:17 AM
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40

The husband in this article looks like a young Stephen Harper.


Posted by: Nick | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 10:25 AM
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41

I have thoughts, of course. Like oudemia, I think he's making things up to improve his story. They're doing some things right by my count, though. Going to a black barber is a good idea for practical and cultural reasons. In general, I think adoptive parents should be WAY more thoughtful and cautious about adding birthed children whether biological or "embryo adopted" (which isn't a phrase I like) to make sure it's not going to be too upsetting or othering for the kids they already have and I can think of several families I know online where the black adopted kids are differentiated in various ways from the white bio kids, which is gross. So it did make sense to me for them to keep having black children once they'd started, though I'm not entirely convinced it made sense for this particular family to start in the first place. (I mean, yay that it only took a couple of missionary trips to Haiti to make the mom decide not to be a racist, right?)

I don't think it's a coincidence that "embryo/snowflake adoption" became popular at a time when international adoptions were slowing down and domestic infant adoptions becoming both increasingly rare and increasingly open to gay couples rather than "traditional" families. I'm sure there are families who are entirely non-weird about it but that means you don't see them bragging online or in the newspaper about the lives they saved and the great sacrifice they made in "adopting" a baby with typically no ongoing connection to biological relatives, typically a clean and tested genetic background, a prenatal environment the "adoptive" parents can control and so on. It takes out the parts of adoption that make some people squeamish while leaving the weird savior narrative there.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 10:45 AM
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42

I think it would be better to have the bio kids first and then you can adopt. If the older kids object, you can just list out all the ways they have disappointed you.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 12:02 PM
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43

My first boss was a developmental psychologist, so if that's wrong, blame her.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 12:16 PM
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44

42 - I know a family that pretty much did that. Except they had 7 bio kids and then adopted 15 more.


Posted by: R Tigre | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 12:20 PM
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45

"I'm sure there are families who are entirely non-weird about it but that means you don't see them bragging online or in the newspaper about the lives they saved and the great sacrifice they made in "adopting" a baby with typically no ongoing connection to biological relatives, typically a clean and tested genetic background, a prenatal environment the "adoptive" parents can control and so on. It takes out the parts of adoption that make some people squeamish while leaving the weird savior narrative there."

Bing bing bing bing bing!!!

I don't buy the ethically consistent line at all either - if someone is so passionately anti-birth control the way to be ethically consistent and have an impact would be to dedicate oneself to improving the life prospects of actually existing children born as a result of one's anti-birth control activism. Like as a result of lack of access to a safe and affordable abortion. Do that and be judged effective by the recipients of your generosity and then step out from behind the curtain for your bows.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 12:42 PM
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"I'm sure there are families who are entirely non-weird about it but that means you don't see them bragging online or in the newspaper about the lives they saved and the great sacrifice they made in "adopting" a baby with typically no ongoing connection to biological relatives, typically a clean and tested genetic background, a prenatal environment the "adoptive" parents can control and so on. It takes out the parts of adoption that make some people squeamish while leaving the weird savior narrative there."

Bing bing bing bing bing!!!

I don't buy the ethically consistent line at all either - if someone is so passionately anti-birth control the way to be ethically consistent and have an impact would be to dedicate oneself to improving the life prospects of actually existing children born as a result of one's anti-birth control activism. Like as a result of lack of access to a safe and affordable abortion. Do that and be judged effective by the recipients of your generosity and then step out from behind the curtain for your bows.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 12:43 PM
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47

I don't think they are anti-birth control. They were Protestant.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 12:46 PM
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48

If they're anti-abortion in my book they're anti-birth control.

At any rate I'm even more irritable than usual about self- righteous and congratulatory bullshit at the moment as just now returning from 4 days by a deathbed observing up close and way too personal the predictable uselessness of the most sanctimonious among us.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 12:56 PM
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49

41 makes so much sense.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 4:21 PM
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50

I do wonder whether the genetic parents know where their embryos went. I can easily imagine a black couple deciding after looking at their options for family creation to know that there's a dearth of black sperm and egg donors, that some adoption agencies won't even work with black couples, and so think that well these embryos should go to a black family that will appreciate them and not have other options.... Just guessing about that, of course, but it doesn't seem implausible.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 6:16 PM
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51

41 was all baseless speculation too, for the record.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 6:49 PM
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52

That kind of notification isn't required is it?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 6:59 PM
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53

No, totally optional.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 7:31 PM
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54

Which means you should totally feel free to speculate baselessly about which commenter stabbed the guy in your neighborhood.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 7:44 PM
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Definitely not required! Just sometimes I do know what I'm talking about in adoption issues and so I figured I'd say this was just my version. I think I'm right, though.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 7:45 PM
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54: You're only saying that because he said it was a woman and that gets you off the list.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 7:47 PM
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Hey, you're lucky I didn't suggest it was you specifically, which I did consider.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 7:52 PM
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58

||

If you go on a coffee date in Oakland you might find yourself asked about your relation to structures of power.

|>


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 7:56 PM
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59

Is "orthogonal" acceptable in reply?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 7:58 PM
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60

So what did you say?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 7:58 PM
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I neatly segued into a discussion of the virtues of a system whereby people chosen by lot choose representatives with legislative power.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:01 PM
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62

Also sez who it happened to me, I was just saying, you know, if YOU do, then.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:02 PM
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63

If I do I think I'd have to say "close," although if I were on a date in Oakland I suppose my circumstances may have changed significantly.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:06 PM
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64

When we stab the patriarchy, teo, you'll be close to first against the wall.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:11 PM
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65

Well, I probably do deserve it, so fair enough.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:12 PM
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66

I don't think you really need a wall to stab something, though.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:13 PM
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64: so will the person doing the stabbing.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:13 PM
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68

The guy must have gotten stabbed by his wife, but the news doesn't explain why or why neither of them had a gun like regular people.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:15 PM
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69

They were probably pro-gun-control liberals. No one ever talks about controlling knives.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:17 PM
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58 is sort of reassuring me that I might not be as bad at dating as I'd expect to be, or that maybe other people are worse. (Better? Unclear.)


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:17 PM
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69: Not from that area. Even the Democrats have lots of guns.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:20 PM
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72

No Republicans. No liberals.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:21 PM
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73

58 does remind me that during my recent quick trip to Philadelphia for the seder I learned that my sister and her fiancé are feeling the Bern so much that they're talking about not even supporting Clinton in the general. My mom tried to talk my sister out of this and I think made some progress, bu t the fiancé (who as I've mentioned before subscribes to Jacobin, and as I learned on this trip also attends a Jacobin reading group) might be a lost cause and is apparently even talking about maybe voting for Trump over Clinton. I don't know if either will actually follow through on this, and it does actually matter more than it might because Pennsylvania.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:22 PM
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I don't know if I've mentioned before that talking to him is like participating in a particularly annoying Unfogged thread, but it is. And I didn't even talk to him directly about electoral politics more than a minimal amount on this trip (the details in 73 are via my sister).


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:24 PM
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75

Why not introduce him to the blog? Keep RT occupied with another sparring partner. And Bob could use the company.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:26 PM
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76

Do you give him backhanded compliments about how some of your best friends read Jacobin and talk like that too?


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:27 PM
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75: Oh god no. When Trivers was talking about going to grad school I did think about offering to put them in touch, because he does similar stuff to what it sounds like Trivers is thinking of doing, but that would have to be under the condition that Unfogged never enter the conversation. (That said, Trivers, I am still willing to do this under that condition, so let me know
if you're interested.)
76: Not as such, but when we were discussing another family member who has similar superficially-leftist-but-mostly-just-trolling politics I did say that he sounded like a perfect person to invite to the Jacobin reading group.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:35 PM
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78

Maybe this will finally turn RT against Jacobin.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:37 PM
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79

He's a good guy overall, and he's very good to my sister, but he's the type who tries to turn every conversation toward philosophical issues that can be addressed from first principles without addressing any specifics. Which fits right into my mom's family who all went to St. John's and converse the same way, but drives me crazy personally.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:43 PM
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...but he's the type who tries to turn every conversation toward philosophical issues that can be addressed from first principles without addressing any specifics.

Just give thanks that he's not a libertarian. You dodged a serious bullet there. But keep an eye on him all the same.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:46 PM
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Oh god yes. On the other hand, I seriously doubt my sister would actually date a libertarian, let alone marry one.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:48 PM
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82

In some sense I think a lot of my problems stem from being an Aristotelian born into a family of Platonists.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:52 PM
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83

Maybe they stole you as an embryo.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:53 PM
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82: If only embryo selection technology has been better sooner, things could have been so different!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:53 PM
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82: If only embryo selection technology has been better sooner, things could have been so different!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:54 PM
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Very few philosophical issues can be addressed from first principles (in the way that sort of endeavor usually proceeds, anyway).


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:54 PM
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87

I dunno, the physical similarities are pretty obvious.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:54 PM
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88

I think a lot of my problems stem from being an Aristotelian born into a family of Platonists.

Aren't you a little old for this staple of teenage lamentation?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:54 PM
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89

87 to 83. You guys are fast!


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:55 PM
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88: Yes. I don't spend much time thinking about it.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:55 PM
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||

Featured among the singers of one of the three operas being put on this summer by a company with connexions to this blog is a woman I once wished to date (she was not single then and is engaged now), and among the singers of another of those three operas is a woman I corresponded with for a while on OKC but never actually met. Among the singers of the third opera is no woman with whom I have had any actual, potential, or merely hypothetical romantic involvement, at least not yet.

|>


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 8:56 PM
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87: They cut the foreskin off on purpose, if that's what you mean.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:00 PM
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93

Well do I remember the times when my parents would plead with me, asking, didn't I love them, and I would reply that I did love my family, but I loved the truth MORE, and then I would run into my room and slam the door and contemplate the unmoved mover.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:00 PM
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92: Lots of people do that, though, regardless of their philosophical allegiances.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:06 PM
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I don't think it's notably associated with either Platonists or Aristotelians, in fact.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:08 PM
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"Unmoved Mover" would be good for a story about a hard-boiled repo man.


Posted by: lourdes kayak | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:09 PM
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97

Happy Passover anyway.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:09 PM
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98

Thanks.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:10 PM
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99

Although I actually kind of hate Passover, while still feeling obligated to observe it in some fashion for some reason.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:11 PM
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100

I'm a first born Gentile. I don't want any trouble.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:12 PM
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101

Passover is more or less the only time of the year I make even a passing show at any kind of religious observance, since (this isn't remotely unique to me and I'm sure I've mentioned it before) I endeavor not to eat bread etc. or the obviously treyf during it. But I still have, like, pancetta in my fridge.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:12 PM
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102

101 is essentially me too, although I do also fast on Yom Kippur.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:14 PM
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103

Just put it on a separate plate.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:15 PM
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104

Pancetta isn't leavened.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:17 PM
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105

Yeah but you can be damn sure the escaping Hebrews didn't have time to cure any pork legs.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:20 PM
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106

Or, more to the point, bellies.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:33 PM
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93: My parents left copies of National Review lying around and I remember several times reading about the little Commjnist child so brainwashed by the party it meant denouncing and turning in disloyal parents, which horrified me as an anecdote because how could there be any point in having convictions if you'd just drop them completely for the people you love? (To this day I don't know if I was misreading the magazine or if the writers really did just miss the irony or what.)


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:37 PM
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108

If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend I hope I should have the guts to betray my country.


Posted by: EM Forster | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:42 PM
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109

That problem is easy enough to solve by not having friends. Doesn't hurt that the country is not short on flaws either.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:46 PM
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110

https://www.instagram.com/p/BERW7Vvsffu/?taken-by=barbiesavior


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:53 PM
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This is maybe the most relevant to the post:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BEEfvdLMfXG/?taken-by=barbiesavior


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:54 PM
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That Instagram has been making the rounds on my FB lately. It's pretty great.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 9:57 PM
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113

Wow, you people had parents who were way more serious and literary than mine.

On Christmas Eve, we went to Midnight Mass. On Easter Sunday, we had a ham, with scalloped potatoes, after attending Sunday Mass. There were no magazines, no articles, no real arguments to speak of. You just had to show up with a pulse at the requisite Mass, and then let the feasting and the festivities begin...

In the mental-moral universe that my parents inhabited, all bread was leavened as a matter of course.


Posted by: Just Plain Jane | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 10:05 PM
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JPJ's family: Objectively antisemitic.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 10:16 PM
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JPJ's family: Objectively antisemitic.

Fair point. Though my mother had a notion that Jewish men made the best fathers and husbands: "So devoted to their children! and they make such loyal husbands."


Posted by: Just Plain Jane | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 10:27 PM
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I'll take it!


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 10:35 PM
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My dad was truly horrified when one of my younger sisters started dating a Baptist. He was having none of that Bible-slinging, Bible-quoting business, believe you me. When said sister broke up with the Baptist and brought home a nice Jewish boy instead, my Irish RC dad was all, "Well, it's a respectable religion, after all."

"And did you say your father was a doctor, lad?"


Posted by: Just Plain Jane | Link to this comment | 04-24-16 10:43 PM
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If you go on a coffee date in Oakland you might find yourself asked about your relation to structures of power.

I would take this as a cue to start talking about electricity pylons.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 12:58 AM
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OT: mention of Philadelphia above reminded me: C is going to Philadelphia tomorrow (arriving in the latish evening) and at the moment doesn't seem to have any fixed commitments until dinner on Wednesday. So, apart from gong to see Rocky, is there anything that would be a good thing to do? Best place to get a Philly cheesesteak for lunch?


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 1:26 AM
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If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend I hope I should have the guts to betray my country.

Words cannot express how much I hate this sentiment. Especially given when and where it was said (1930s Britain), it's basically the equivalent of saying "yes, he may be a Nazi/Stalinist, but he's a jolly good chap so let's not make a fuss".


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 1:37 AM
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120 gets it exactly right. However, had Forster been a Russian or a German, he would have made a fair point.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 2:25 AM
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119: Where is he going to be in the city? Pat's Steaks is famous for being the original, but it's nothing special. A lot of people like Jim's on South Street. I like Abner's, if he's going to be near the university district.

Independence Hall (where they wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution) is interesting if you're an American, but I don't know if it's interesting otherwise. If he likes art the art museums are pretty good -- there's the main museum, a Rodin museum, and the Barnes, which is mainly impressionist.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 3:12 AM
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119 First or second prize?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 3:26 AM
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||

Oh shit, now Billy Paul! NMM to Mrs Jones.

|>


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 3:33 AM
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The thing to do in Philadelphia is interview for jobs that don't quite pay enough to make moving worthwhile.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 4:35 AM
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Free time in Philadelphia! Great opportunity to visit DC or New York.


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 4:38 AM
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Also, I don't think the Liberty Bell is on Independence Hall. It's was a separate place when I was there, a place that was easier to get into.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 4:39 AM
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If you say, "I'd like a lager," they give you Yuengling.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 4:40 AM
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The train from the airport to town is $9. Or $12. I forget which, but one of those. Maybe the $12 was a day pass.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 4:43 AM
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Walt covered the top choices, but if he's not not so into U.S. history or art, we have a decent zoo. Fairmount park is a pleasant and very large urban park, with bicycle rentals.

There is also a fair amount of interesting architecture, and guidebooks or websites/apps are easy to find.

Based on the view from my office, Lots of people seem to enjoy Segway Tours of Center City, not sure why, and not cheap.


Posted by: Unimaginative | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 4:53 AM
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C is going to Philadelphia tomorrow (arriving in the latish evening) and at the moment doesn't seem to have any fixed commitments until dinner on Wednesday. So, apart from gong to see Rocky, is there anything that would be a good thing to do? Best place to get a Philly cheesesteak for lunch?

For food he should go to Reading Terminal Market. Right in the center of the city, teeming with great food of virtually every variety you can imagine. (Dinic's pork sandwiches are especially good.) If he must have a cheesesteak, and has a car, Steve's Prince of Steaks is a favorite for a lot of people. If he doesn't have a car...maybe Tony Luke's?

For stuff to do that is uniquely Philadelphian, he should definitely consider the Mutter Museum, which I know I have recommended before.

Other low-profile but interesting stuff: the Edgar Allen Poe House (easy walk; near Center City); any versions at all of a mural tour (I'm partial to the self-guided tour, but they have trolley tours and other guided ones) from the amazing Mural Arts Project. If he likes baseball, Citizens Bank Park is an easy subway ride from the center of the city, and the Phillies are struggling so much that tickets are pretty cheap. It's a lovely ballpark.

Chinatown is right in the center of the city as well and unlike Washington DC "Chinatown" is still bustling and fun. My favorite restaurant is actually Vietnam, although a friend is partial to Dim Sum Palace for unpretentious but delicious dumplings with fresh shaved ginger.

In West Philadelphia, the areas around the universities (Penn and Drexel) are gentrified but still have some good food trucks. If he feels a bit more adventuresome he can take a trolley farther west on Baltimore Avenue and get good Ethiopian food.

Basically we're a good eating town, in other words. He should have lots of good meals.

If he really feels intrepid he can head out to Germantown and visit some of their Underground Railroad and Revolutionary War sites. They are just starting to try to market themselves as a tourist destination so he would have to do more legwork. It's about a 25 minute trip from Center City. Good info at FreedomsBackYard.com.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 4:54 AM
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The Liberty Bell is across the street from Independence Hall.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 4:57 AM
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Moby's 128 is true, but if C likes beer, he should check out one of our many breweries, most of which offer tours.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 4:59 AM
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I forgot about Reading Market and the dumplings. I did those my trip before last. They were good.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 5:00 AM
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Moby's 128 is true, but if C likes beer, he should check out one of our many breweries, most of which offer tours.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 5:00 AM
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Do people really drive to go to Steve's Prince of Steaks? I've eaten there about a million times, but it's right by my high school.

The Reading Terminal Market is just like some open-air market in London (except the Reading Terminal Market is inside), but I forget the name. The one time I was at the London market I found it disturbingly familiar. I half-expected there to be a cheesesteak place. (You used to be able to get cheesesteaks in Reading Terminal Market, but I don't know if that's still true.)

The Mutter Museum is unique, but not for everybody.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 5:02 AM
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I would take this as a cue to start talking about electricity pylons.

This works better in Austin than Oakland.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 5:05 AM
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You can get a cheesesteak soft pretzel at Reading Terminal at the pretzel place. I am a traditionalist pretzel lover so I have never tried it.

I'm sure they must have actual cheesesteaks at RTM. I just never look for them. Too busy eating cannoli from Termini Bros. MMmmmmmmmmm.

True that the Mutter is not for everyone. Definitely click the website link above. If you're grossed out by that, you'll hate the museum.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 5:08 AM
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My wife just reminded me of Eastern State Penitentiary, which is basically the first modern prison, which relatively recently reopened as a museum. It's not far from the art museums.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 5:08 AM
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Now I want a soft pretzel, darn it.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 5:08 AM
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Me too. I hate you all.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 5:14 AM
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That's another thing. Philadelphia isn't as friendly as Pittsburgh, but it doesn't have all the serial killers like Ohio. That that lack of friendliness means less stupid driving because nobody assumes a mid-block three-point turn in rush hour traffic will be indulged.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 5:17 AM
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Oh, Reading Terminal Market looks like just the sort of place he'd love, thank you! (And will amuse him, as we live in Reading.) I'll show him the rest of the suggestions too, so he can see how his time plays out.

They're staying pretty near the airport, I don't know where. Thursday he's at this place and then might have some free time between there and the airport.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 5:26 AM
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If it's where Google says it is, then Abner's is 3 blocks from there (38th and Chestnut). Everything else is right downtown, so it's a short subway ride.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 5:32 AM
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The Mutter looks good too, in keeping with the medical theme of the trip.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 5:45 AM
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The Mutter looks good too, in keeping with the medical theme of the trip.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 5:45 AM
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RTM reminds me of the Mercado da Ribeira in Lisbon http://www.timeout.com/city-guides/time-out-mercado-da-ribeira-lisbon/ We had to practically force ourselves to go elsewhere and not just hang out in there for four days.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 5:50 AM
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I had great Ethiopian food the summer I lived in Philadelphia, but that was over 20 years ago.

142 Are serial killers still a thing? I thought it was all spree killers these days.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 6:14 AM
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Well, if you see a Craigslist ad from Ohio that offers a job with included housing at a remote location, don't go alone. Or with anyone you'd feel terribly bad about getting killed to keep you safe.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 6:24 AM
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The thing to do in Philly is to go to walk around, eat, look at its very unique architecture and then go to a bar or even a cheezy nightclub and breathe in the glory of the angriest people in America. Great place.


Posted by: R Tigre | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 7:05 AM
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139: My husband loves Eastern State.


Posted by: J, Robot | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 8:35 AM
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119: City Tavern!


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 8:37 AM
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I'd also vote for the Mutter museum. Filled with two-headed babies in bottles.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 8:50 AM
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Late, but chiming in on Philly recommendations: I definitely second Jim's on South Street for cheesesteaks (though the line is often very long), and South Street itself is kind of fun just as an experience. I've never been to Eastern State Penitentiary but my sister went once and found it very interesting. Since it sounds like he'll mostly be in West Philly, the University Museum is very much worth visiting if he's at all interested in anthropology or archaeology. Overall it's just a really cool city to wander around, and as others have said it has fantastic food. It's also very inexpensive compared to most other large cities in the US.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 11:11 PM
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Also that department store (the old Wanamakers maybe?) with the enormous pipe organ that gives concerts at noon.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 11:47 PM
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I loved the Mutter museum but it also kind of made me feel sick to my stomach. Like, when I left I realized I really wanted to throw up.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 04-25-16 11:48 PM
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If anybody had strong opinions about the Philadelphia traffic court, thirty minutes ago was the time to tell me about them.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-26-16 4:58 AM
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Are serial killers still a thing?

No. They're uncool these days. That's why they're all in Ohio.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 04-26-16 5:45 AM
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Apparently, I should have voted to close the Philadelphia traffic court (instead of leaving it blank), but really somebody could have mentioned it in the newspaper or something. I guess that's why the studious types go look up sample ballots ahead of the election.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-26-16 5:51 AM
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Sam Spa Center is renowned for offering excellent spa services in India.Very relaxing and rejuvenating experience. Eased out the stiffness and body pains. Courteous staff. Good ambience. Complimentary show and drinks.


Posted by: Best Spa Services in India | Link to this comment | 07- 6-17 10:13 PM
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