Oh hey, I have thoughts! But mostly I'll just say that I think this sort of thing puts way too much pressure on moms (and maybe dads) who are basically healthy, or particularly who are basically healthy and responsive but dealing with postpartum depression or whatever. Inadequate and unresponsive care damages babies, definitely. (Ask me how I know!) But healing is totally possible, even for adults who want to do better.
find in page "twin"- 0 hits
find in page "adoption"- 0 hits
Well, be careful - that's Dr. Sears pressure, not actual pressure. The real theory seems to say that basically normal, responsive parents do just fine.
I also think it's bullshit to emphasize the first year at the expense of the next 18 years, for the record.
I agree that it says that, but you think a normal, responsive mother is going to read that only 60 percent of adults have secure attachments and not worry that she's doing it wrong?
Not the way it's generally marketed and covered in the media, no. I mean, there's a million reasons why new parents are terrible hyperventilaters, and whether this is accurate isn't really going to make or break that.
4: Disagree. Mara has been with me almost 6 years (so ages 3-9) mid-fall, Nia for 4 years (6-10), and Selah 3 this fall (13 months to age 4) and Selah attached drastically more quickly and completely. I wouldn't say she has any attachment problems at all at this point, though she has some sadness about the breakup and her adoption and how much she misses some family members we no longer see. Nia still doesn't call me Mom but she calls me her mom and seeing her navigate her relationship with the mom who raised her something like 2/3 of the time including the first year+ of life before she came into care has solidified our bond and also helped her heal there. Mara loves me with her whole heart and part of her still believes pretty strongly that someday I'll walk out the door and never come back. She is unlikely to ever have the solidity of trust that the other two have just because all or some of their needs were met as babies because very few of hers were reliably.
Isn't that all consistent with it being a spectrum instead of a bright line?
I mean, suppose Mara had a stable life until age 3, at which point she was completely in chaos from ages 3 to 6, at which point stability resumed. There's no data AFAIC saying that she'd be much better off than someone who suffered an awful 3 year patch elsewhere.
I take that back, I see now you're contrasting Mara and Nia to address that.
Fwiw, my anecdata of 2 totally agrees with the first year thing. Two siblings both adopted at 18 months, one with a stable foster family the whole time and the other with chaos and disaster. Although time has helped a lot with the latter brother forming attachments, 30 years certainly hasn't outweighed that first 18 months.
I like this theory, because the first year of both my kids' lives went fine, so now I can freely fuck up.
True! Maybe I should embrace the first year cut-off now that we're on easy street.
I guess this explains why my "Wire Mommy Infant Daycare Center" failed.
only 60 percent of adults have secure attachments
If true, does this not suggest that attachment theory is a crock of shit?
No, because high fructose corn syrup. Jeez.
I took the quiz. My favorite part is all the questions that are just to see whether or not you are a person who obeys instructions. (spoiler alert: I'm not.)
It's my understanding--which this article more or less bears out--that it's actually not really a continuum. That is, that there's a whole range of parenting-infant-styles including some pretty negligent and even nasty stuff that doesn't mean much for attachment outcomes--that is kids raised anywhere in that band typically turn out fine-to-normal-fucked-up, or alternatively deeply fucked up in but ways that don't map onto early attachment. But once you get into really serious deprivation in infancy, i.e. kids really not being fed, or left alone for days, a switch flips and you get reliably damaged adult attachment styles. This is not a shocking conclusion or one which lends itself to flagellating mothers. John Kabat-Zinn can go fuck himself.
I took the quiz, I did great.
If your parents are disobedient during your first year, you're unable to complete quizzes as an adult.
According to the quiz, though, I'm only SLIGHTLY less agreeable than most people. So take that, imaginary criticism of my authority issues!
I mean. I am not sure I share an ontology with a quiz that gives my response to "I talk things over with people" predictive or diagnostic value, but I will sew the Securely Attached merit badge to my sash nonetheless.
I couldn't handle taking the quiz because of the how-you-respond-to-your-partner stuff. Sorry!
24 "How do you respond to your partner who is a notorious goblin?"
I mean, I can now say that there are huge differences between a romantic partner with fucked-up attachment who's trying to understand that and learn to have meaningful, healthy human interactions and one who thinks she's completely normal and the only person in the world who sees how everything should be with total clarity. But maybe secure attachment all around would make for a better setup.
I have a hard time not gaming quizzes like that, where there's an obvious "right" answer. I am pretty securely attached too, although I have all sorts of other neuroses caused by my sort of dysfunctional upbringing.
Also, wearing my anthropologist hat, emotionally intimacy and healthy communication are culturally specific, so I'm somewhat skeptical of the value of some of these questions, as CS notes.
I think this was probably a bad month for me to take this quiz.
Quiz: Should You Quit Sniffing Glue This Month?
31: There could never be a good month for me to take that quiz.
Any quiz which leaves off toilet training is clearly invalid.
Roll 12d16 for a saving throw.
16 is not one of the platonic solids, so I don't know of 16-sided dice </pedantry>
Also that quiz made me very curious about whether most (any? healthy?) people find being ill or going to the emergency room to be pleasant, non-stressful events. Whee! Another field trip!
You use 2 eight-sided dice.
I see that nosflow has already pwned me on the entire subject, but, personally, I'd use 2 four-sided dice.
36: LMGTFY
If anyone's curious (and I don't know why you would be) the dice on this page are interesting. The d14 and d24 (with triangular faces) both look wrong to me, and I find that interesting.
37: Yuck! Hang in there!
I have found that ERs vary pretty widely in terms of extra stress and wait time.
36: dice do not have to be platonic solids to be unbiased. Witness, obviously, the invaluable D10.
Also insofar as any of this is actually a thing, I think I performed anxious attachment in romantic relationships for a long time, because isn't that what love is??? (no). Some the 40% of us with ostensibly disordered attachment styles are actually perfectly alright young women who underestimate their coping skills.
Some are probably young men with a (hopefully) passing interest in ethics in video game journalism.
37: Maybe it depends on the amount of stress involved? I can see someone reacting mainly with annoyance or irritation to something significant enough to make the emergency room worth visiting but not too significant overall, and that probably wouldn't meet the bar for a genuinely stressful event. (Or, I guess, there's always the "Ok I have the most amazing story about the dumbass thing I did this weekend when drunk..." factor which could make an emergency room visit into something amusing for someone rather than stressful.)
Our Children's Hospital ER/urgent care (they do the triage to tell you which to go to if you're not sure) is so wonderful and makes the wait as pain-free as possible that I'm not sure I could stand to live somewhere else, or at least not while I'm still visiting more often than I'd like.
37: Wait, why are we going to the ER? I was going to stop by the framers and Target.
bowlby, who along with Mary Ainsworth developed the theory, specifically talked about a primary caregiver who could be a father or even a small cluster of people. There is a lot of stuff about adult attachment including the concept of earned secure attachment.
Nobody's going to the ER! It was just a set of questions on the quiz. Have you been to the ER recently? Was it pleasant? Was it stressful?
I was surprised at the prospect of either of the follow-up questions getting a range of answers.
Nobody's going to the ER!
Thanks Obamacare.
I mean, somebody is probably going to the ER. Not me though!
51: I don't think we took the same quiz. I did the 4 minute no registry one.
Going to ER was horrible. We were waiting for 8 hours or so. The worst part was when Wendy Williams was on.
58: and it only got worse when you arrived!
Since I suppose that this is the close family member / hospitals thread: close family member reappeared from the other side of the world (good!), only to be immediately sectioned by the police and put into a psychiatric hospital (less good!). Going to try and visit and see what's going on. And at least the family member in question is now safe, with whereabouts accounted for.
56: In a black dress? Just one look she was a bad mess?
re: 60
Best wishes. I have a close relative who has been in and out of psychiatric hospital on various compulsory orders and sections, and it's not the easiest thing.
62: Cheers. It's actually a relief to know where they are, and in the absence of upsetting detail so far, the news feels mostly positive. (I may feel differently after visiting.) All the best to you, too - my relative's illness came to light in the last couple of years*. I imagine that it's tougher the longer that you have to deal with it.
*although it felt very obvious in retrospect, with a lot of foreshadowing throughout their life.
Sorry, Pres. That sort of thing is really hard to deal with, especially from afar. If any of us are nearby, there are good people here who might be able to help a bit.
That (longer, at least) quiz isn't easy to take if you actually do fit into one of the less healthy sections. I mean, I could probably have guessed at the results given the available possibilities beforehand, but by the end I definitely knew what the results would be.
Quiz says I am destined for loneliness.
"As in what ways?
From inexistence to existence he came to many and was
as one received: existence with existence he was with any as any with any: from existence to nonexistence gone he would be by all as none perceived." ( Ulysses p 778)
Sure the test says dismissive/avoidant, but if so that means I'll really only have unhealthy relationships so not having any is clearly the only morally acceptable choice. Actually that works out surprisingly well.
60: Pres, I am very sorry. It really does suck. Sometimes (not always, but sometimes) it is better to have the person sectioned and in a hospital where they may be able to get help.
What the hell edition of Ulysses is bob using that has a page 778?
The one with the forward by Chuck Tingle.
I would buy that the point of Chuck Tingle is also that we go into death alone.
I don't usually say this, but I think Ezra Klein should have assigned that article to a talented female journalist. I can think of many who would have brought a sharper and more interesting lens to the piece. It feels like he's still fumbling toward understanding his own thesis, and it isn't particularly interesting or insightful.
71: Didn't look right to myself, cut and pasted it from a CT thread. Possibly the new/old Little Review edition?
But I was looking at the poetry and profundity rather than nitpicking for mistakes and looking to criticize. People read in different ways, for different purposes I guess.
A family member is currently getting truly insane, paranoid letters from a distant relative who lives in East Fi/fe. It's weird and distressing, obviously, but also involves an odd, bureaucratic interaction with the local mental health people from the other side of the world.
77 makes me think of the social-services interviews in How Late It Was, How Late.
re: 77
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2015/9/contents/enacted
Might be useful.
My kid has been lashing out at me for the last week -- she is normally very affectionate, if a little moody, but will pull away if I try to kiss her, swats at me constantly, scowls and gives me the silent treatment for causing even minor displeasure. Despite introspection and theories I have no real idea why she's mad at me, and she may not know either. But it is pretty intense and has lasted for days. Feelings are fine and all, but I am getting nowhere with the swatting and shoving and occasional defensive kicks. Maybe I should apologize more sincerely for the ad hoc day camp fiasco.
Promise her that in the future only well planned, rehearsed day camp fiascos will happen.
My superego did not disguise itself well with the pseud "Id".
I guess there's not much emphasis on other parents because you only need one good secure attachment and the mother is still more usually the primary caregiver.
The bit about predicting your attachment as a parent by your attachment as a baby is a bit worrying. My foster brother was diagnosed with an attachment disorder and he and his girlfriend are just expecting their first baby.
Update on close family member with serious mental health issues: they were voluntarily committed, transfered to their hometown, whereupon they promptly left the psychiatric unit, then walked over and broke into the house of their parents to try and kill their father. Sectioned by the police (not voluntary this time). Absconded by scaling a high wall an hour later, not found all night - I slept in the room next to CFMWSMHI's parents. It was quite frightening. Now CFMWSMHI is in a secure unit. I visited CFMWSMHI today in the new place. Very strange as they behave completely normally and are able to make jokes and tell genuinely funny stories about their condition, which has significantly deteriorated from when I last saw them. Sounds like it was touch-and-go that they made it back from the other side of the world, as their behaviour in [country where they were] was really quite dangerous to themselves, and it's not a particularly safe place to begin with.
National politics is mirroring my personal circumstances nicely. Boris Johnson is now Foreign Secretary, I note! Further comment would probably be superfluous.
Holy shit, President. I'm glad your relative is in a secure place and I hope there's a quick and effective treatment -- or failing that, a slow but effective treatment. (I watched a close friend have a schizophrenic breakdown as a young adult, and I remember how upsetting it was, but he really did improve over time -- although watching the side effects of the antipsychotics was also upsetting -- better than the alternative, sadly.) And I hope you get a break from the acute stress soon, so you can focus on the, um, chronic stress. Best of luck anyway, really.
84: How terribly stressful. Hope your relative gets the help they need, and I hope you have a few diversions to give yourself a break.