At this point Atrios is basically the (mostly-right but still) Andy Rooney of the liberal internet. Has the guy had a new thought in 15 years? To the excerpted passage I don't think accurately describes the behavior of the unfathonable suburban other. Kids at 15 have a lot more autonomy at 15 than at 12, more at 12 than at 7, etc. Obviously drivers license v not is a very big deal and I tentatively would support a raise in the driving age to 18, but come on.
1: Right? Is the sea of stupidity that is the internet not deep and wide enough already? Is it really necessary to open his mouth and blow some glacier melting nonsense and watch the levels rise ever higher?
I don't know. I'm scared shitless thinking about my son driving. I remember what I did and how bad I was at driving.
4: I get it, both my kids drive and my younger one can be kind of an idiot. But the degree of freedom is still a continuum, they don't go from 15 to 25. A bunch of that continuum is even coded into law these days in that young drivers have restrictions on hours of operation, having other teens of a certain age in the vehicle, etc.
It wasn't really a continuum when I was a kid. When I turned 16 (or at least when my first classmate with an older brother turned 16), my entire social life switched from things my mom would tolerate to thinly veiled excuses for drinking and driving (or at least riding).
Has the guy had a new thought in 15 years?
OK, but I only blog when I do have a new thought (I guess I think everyone has read the back catalog) and now I rarely post anything.
Atrios writes, ogged links. Except the link part. Don't make me type a URL!
"Original thought is like original sin: both happened before you were born to people you could not have possibly met."
The general "don't leave my sight" phenomenon is weird to me. I wish my kids would get the hell out of the house more. They make so much noise.
Attach a lure to the nearest pokestop.
FWIW, the anti-autonomous vehicle stuff is newer than 15 years.
Really the issue is the death of blogging; most of his output in the past was part of a conversation with other bloggers, but that almost never happens anymore. Half the time when he shits on AVs, Drum will respond with "AVs are teh awesome, Atrios is a loser," but Atrios never replies, just repeats himself a week later. But there isn't the density of blogs to sustain cross-blog conversation.
For the first time ever, we have neighbors with kids, and the big kids have been going outside to play constantly this week. It's great and wholesome and sweet. Then Rascal screams and screams until he gets to go outside too, or else he just screams and screams. That part is not so great.
(They have 8 kids, ages 8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1. The names of the first five all start with J.)
That's nothing. I went to school with a guy who came from a family of ten and they all had the same initials. And a girl from a family of 12 where they all had the same initial. This was two out of a high school graduating class of 17.
An old family friend has 23 kids (I think 11 are adopted), and all of their names are Irish names that end in -an (Kieran, Brendan, Meaghan, etc etc etc).
In conclusion, there are lots and lots of names that start with J. Why would you stop at 5? So the kids can split in to teams more easily?
Well, 17 is why 14 is so much more entertaining than 15 and 16 are.
"Joseph, Jessica, Jennifer, John, Jason, Mary, Paul, and Tom."
And I'm pretty sure it's the same parents for all 8.
You could test them. To save money, you could probably just test #5 and #6.
1: Atrios has a long, boring history of "I don't get [common feature, event or figure in middle-class American life]. Have I mentioned how much I enjoy visiting medical facilities in countries in Europe, where they have universal healthcare? Because I visit Europe often" posts. He's the Unfrozen Caveman Blogger Who Doesn't Even Own a TV.
Attach a lure to the nearest pokestop.
That's more likely to get me out of the house. I have hatched a Lapras and an Aerodactyl in the past week.
I don't have either of those. I just get stupid 2k eggs lately.
15: Were they of Philippine extraction? The two families I know who did that were both Philippino. Since my sample of Philippine friends is small I just assumed it was a thing over there.
There weren't ten people from Asia in the whole county.
They were Irish/German in one case and Polish or German in the other.
I only see atrios posting one-line blog posts, without much snark, or open threads.
We had neighbors move in with kids Cloud, Star, Moon, and Sam. By the time I lost track of them I think the older kids were using more conventional names.
Where we are now the kids are running around in some giant superorganism made of dogs and 4-10 year old human children and I'm thinking how nice it would be to move here and do idk what, moose law, but, bringing the thread full circle, apparently all the teens actually from here are bored to the point of becoming car-crashing junkies so the idyll ends. I -cannot imagine- what I would have gotten into driving regularly as a teen. I mean I'm sure my reflexes were fine or whatever but I just had no sense whatsoever. Just doing a quick memory google, everyone I know who learned how to drive as a teen had dumb accidents/arrests and no one I know who learned as an adult has. Yes independence develops on a continuum but I think that continuum should be learn when you're 16 but you need your mother needs to accompany you in the car until you're 40. This may be the only parenting thing I care about.
Meanwhile I find those rearview cameras in all the new cars are disorienting and useless but I suppose new drivers are totally dependent on them.
I suppose given my concerns I should be welcoming self-driving cars but I love driving and want my child to experience the strange, freeing, focused trance it induces, I just want her to experience it with me in the passenger seat, yelling.
I don't know what those cameras are actually for, but they're really good for not running over toddlers behind your car.
Well, I know for sure that as a teen in Los Angeles, we had plenty to do and still loved driving way too fast through Topanga or Mulholland canyons. Blasting the Cure, because Robert Smith is the only one who understood us.
Whipping around the canyons listening to the Cure sounds v. self-defeating, sort of the most/least exhilarating activities.
It is true that "Disintegration" is the only existing song that reflects that particular state of mind, and it's entirely compatible with speeding through Mulholland canyon.
35 I do find the "thing is behind you" beeping useful but the visuals are a lot more confusing than just looking backwards is.
I don't know. I'm scared shitless thinking about my son driving. I remember what I did and how bad I was at driving.
Yes.
I love driving and want my child to experience the strange, freeing, focused trance it induces, I just want her to experience it with me in the passenger seat, yelling.
Pretty sure you can get that from literally every other "flow"-inducing activity. And if you yell too loud from the side, they're almost certainly less likely to kill you both and/or others.
Atrios' point, which y'all mostly seemed to have missed is that parents are way over protective of their kids because of false fear of strangers but when they turn 16, parents suddenly forget their concerns for their children and turn them loose with an automobile that has a vastly larger chance of causing some sort of major damage to their lives than anything the parents tried so hard to protect them from when they were younger.
Yes but since it's boring as fuck to make condescending, obvious points about ordinary middle class families in fake visitor-from-Mars style nobody gives a shit that this was his original point.
"Why are people worried about Lyme disease when it is SO MUCH more likely that they'll die in a car accident? By the way, did you know that I live in a big city."
40 I find driving almost uniquely flow-inducing--I guess hard hikes or difficult but non-technical climbing is same? But yes maybe my kid will have the fortune to have multiple sources of flow none of which are treacherous, though I think the danger is part of the state for me. Not in terms of thill, just calm, deep alertness kicks in.
The irony in 41 is what I think of whenever anyone frets about raising kids in NYC. I suppose I could find some statistics to quantify the correctness of all my choices but pretty sure it's extreme.
43 I live in a big city AND had Lyme disease as a child so you don't have to choose.
I regularly entered flow during quiz bowl.
Paradox it's much easier to drive without anxious passengers but it you have to get good enough that they stop being anxious.
43: "But not one of those evil, affluent big cities! I live near black people!"
42 (R Tigre): Congratulations on your pretentious name. That makes you special.
You say nobody gives a shit about Atrios but he actually has quite a large number of followers. Do you? Doubt it.
I got my license a little before 18, I guess, but a lot of my friends didn't bother until well into their 20s. Moving back from Southern California to someplace where I basically never have to drive has been frankly luxurious. I used to commute an hour across LA in stop and go traffic every day! What the fuck was wrong with me?
P.S. Self-driving cars aren't going to work right.
Pittsburgh is getting a self-driving car test fleet courtesy of Uber, so Moby will have new vehicles to slap.
53 is interesting. I remember being considered slightly odd back in the day for waiting until I was nearly 17 to get my license. Back then you could get one the day you turned 16, and it was a rite of passage, for sure.
Anecdotal evidence and observation indicates that Kids Today* (Who Understands Them?) are less interested in getting driver's licenses than in the past.** Also, fewer of them have cars.
Still, in my leafy suburban town, No One Rides the School Bus if they are of driving age or above 10th grade, regardless. If they don't drive or don't have a car, they car pool to school.
* Also, are kids turning 16 now still "Millennials"? Or have we moved on? If so, what are they called?
** I'd be interested if there are any statistics that back this up.
Or have we moved on? If so, what are they called?
The Pre-War Generation?
If fewer of them have cars than in the past, surely this is because they are poorer, and so are their parents.
57.1 is good.
57.2 is true, but quite a few people have suggested that, between social media and gaming, The Kids Today spend a lot less time on driving-centric activities like going to the mall and, well, driving around aimlessly.
OTOH, the past couple weeks Iris (soon to be 12.5 y.o.) has abruptly started talking about wanting to drive; before that, she was scornful/fearful of the idea, so I have no idea what flipped.
I have no idea what flipped
Greater access to pokemon go locations?
Speaking of, I'm driving slow enough for it to count for hatching an egg. The people behind me will have to deal.
If twelve and a half miles per hour was fast enough for Ben Franklin, it's fast enough for you.
If fewer of them have cars than in the past, surely this is because they are poorer, and so are their parents.
IMHO, that's also why more of them live in tiny apartments or with roommates (or both). It's because they want to (as sites like Sl*te and V*x proclaim endlessly) but because they have to.
Greater access to pokemon go locations?
Pokemon Go is so over already...
sb "not because"
Sigh. Where is my coffee, dammit?
re 50 - some people clearly haven't rtfa.
My two over-17s (that being driving age here) can't drive, and I haven't encouraged them. Haven't discouraged them either. Kid A's friends were mostly carless too aged 17/18; Kid B's friends are more suburban and more drive. But they have always had a fair amount of freedom.
It's Festival weekend in our town this weekend. I answered a plea on FB from a FB-only friend (we haven't met, but have a handful of mutual friends/acquaintances) and offered my garden to two of her sons plus three of their friends (aged 15-18) to camp in, last night and tonight, so they can go to the festival today. C was horrified that I'd invited strange teenagers to stay, but everyone else seems more horrified that she and the other parents (that I don't know at all) have sent their kids to stay in a stranger's garden.
In my young day you camped on the festival site. Young people these days don't know they're born!
Cook them for dinner, and both factions will be gratified.
65 - the extras only have day tickets for today, so no festival site camping. Anyway, I like teenagers, but I couldn't eat five!
C never camped there even when he was a teenager growing up in Reading. He and Kids B and D are going each day, plus B and D each have a friend staying. I think it's quicker to walk back to ours than to some of the further away sites, which are the more civilised ones, and the ones nearer the arena are fucking disgusting (I've done salvage there afterwards).
Anyway, I like teenagers, but I couldn't eat five!
So where do you draw the line?
(I've done salvage there afterwards)
Free, feces-stained tent?
You don't have to have them all at once. You can smoke some for afters.
58: so I have no idea what flipped.
Freedom!
53: I used to commute an hour across LA in stop and go traffic every day! What the fuck was wrong with me?
God knows. But there's a middle ground between commuting an hour each day in stop and go traffic (horrible) and having to expend an hour for subways and buses and whatnot in order to arrive at your destination (horrible in another way). I've always thought the difference is in whether you're moving at all during these experiences.
When I'm stuck in highway traffic that will take 30 minutes to be free of, I'll easily take the option of a local detour that takes 45 minutes but has me moving along. There's scenery.
71 I'm with you re: surface streets.
I could walk to my office in an hour.
I could walk to mine in about 2, 2.5
Reading the thread just now, 11 made me laugh.
The general "don't leave my sight" phenomenon is weird to me. I wish my kids would get the hell out of the house more. They make so much noise.
I don't have kids, but those families I'm acquainted with who do have much the same feeling. The kids are constantly pestering: take me here, take me there. Parents seem relieved when the kids can finally drive themselves.
I could walk to my office in two hours, but I would die of heatstroke.
I could walk to my office in two hours but I'd have to move real slow.
I could walk to a Pokemon gym in about five minutes, but I'm waiting for somebody to finish his homework.
If it's me, I think it's time to accept that I'll never finish that final paper for my undergraduate ethology class.
The kids have decided it's funny to say Poke My Mom instead of Pokemon. I'm trying, kid, I'm trying.
I still can't drive, and the greater phoenician area is...not well-supplied with public transit (even cabs). additionally I am in a township next to the barry goldwater memorial, where they don't have sidewalks or even fucking streetlights because FREEDOM. on the plus side, lots of stars at night! I am taking uber everywhere which is fine and easy but sort of spendy, though not as terrible as I feared. I got a dude in a tesla the other day? like, what is going on in your life, bro.
on the one hand, I'd sort of like to get my license because my brother- and sister-in-law have three working cars, each of which is an old volvo, combining the worry-free nature of the beater with actual mad safety in crashes. and adequate driving is honestly pretty easy or every dumbass in america wouldn't drive. I have even ever had a driver's license in my life, for like six months. on the other hand, I wouldn't be a confident driver and therefore I would be a poor driver. and my spine doctor in narnia told me to "avoid minor car accidents" which I thought was the most pointless advice in the world, because who gets in minor car accidents on purpose? BUT he said it because I might be paralyzed below the neck by an accident which would cause only whiplash to another person. and now I am in the only situation I can really think of in which I could take a meaningful step to avoid minor car accidents. I feel terrible letting my in-laws go shopping all the time. I give them money an all, but.
He must have cleared you for major car accidents.
You could take driving lessons and see how you like it? Possibly after 5-10 hours with an instructor, you'd feel comfortable in your capacity to avoid minor accidents.
Possibly after 5-10 hours with an instructor, you'd feel comfortable in your capacity to avoid minor accidents.
Plus that's probably all you'd need to take the test and get a license.
Oh, if she's ever had a license, she could probably pass the test cold.
Right, but she might need driving time too. On the other hand, as an adult, maybe not.
who gets in minor car accidents on purpose?
It's actually a pretty common insurance scam to get into a pre-arranged minor car accident. The usual claim is "whiplash," of course.
granted this is a thing. however I think the advice was not meant to be morally instructional in a "don't commit insurance fraud" way, but more like "hey don't become quadriplegic by rear-ending a car in the costco parking lot at 3mph." I think I would be able to drive OK but the risk-reward factor isn't great-sounding?
I'd think you'd be medically capable of committing many types of insurance fraud. Burning something for the insurance money, for example.
This is the only state I've ever lived in where there are public service announcements about how if you burn something for the insurance money, you can go to prison.
It's high risk but if you survived the minor car crashes unscathed and got the doctor involved you could run CRAZY insurance fraud. I'm an almost literal eggshell plaintiff! Whiplash my ass, where's my $2.1 million?
This is the only state I've ever lived in where there are public service announcements about how if you burn something for the insurance money, you can go to prison.
Billboards too, IIRC.
When I get rich, I get rich on speed
Costco parking lot collision's a payday for me.
My ass, my ass.
Whiplash my ass.
Always got adjusters coming after me
Custom built Volvo doing mph 3.
My ass, my ass.
Whiplash my ass.
91 are you suggesting feigned quadriplegia in which case 2.1 mil seems to be aiming low or emotional damages for fear of quadriplegia?
But also yes 81 that sounds like a situation where not driving is the thing. Even shy of actual accidents, stopping short can be rough on your spine and if you haven't driven in a while you will be stopping short. On the pro side though if you are in the Southwest there are some amazing stretches where you can go 120 easy, and it's spiritual.
As soon as I saw the Atrios quote in the OP, I knew, KNEW, as sure as I know the sun will rise in the morning, that this comment thread would open with some kind of "Atrios sux" remark.
Being right is never not gratifying, at least a little. So thanks for that, RT.
The $2.1 mil was a reference to a key commercial of my, but I guess not everyone's childhood. "Larry Parker got me $2.1 million." It's just the right amount for a damages award.
Got it yeah main commercial of my childhood is Crazy Eddie's prices are INSANE which offers little, but not no, guidance for calculation of compensatory damages.
Here's some actual legal advice: do not get injured in Idaho.
I'm not a doctor, but I feel confident giving the same as medical advice.
You'll all be glad to know that the strange teenagers escaped without being eaten. They were the first ones home last night (after a two hour Red Hot Chili Peppers set), completely sober, and had gone by 9 am today, leaving no trace except a thank you card and some money, which I really wasn't expecting.
Also, kid A is working a few hours a week (cycling food deliverer) and seems to have pretty much turned back into a normal person. Phew.
autonomous cars may be great in the future, but right now they are hilarious:
"To help allay concerns and to comply to with state law, which requires a driver behind the wheel, Uber will have two trained safety drivers on each ride."