Alternative conclusion: Americans have met Germans.
Most Americans don't like to admit to being racists. The way this survey was set up even the not-so-bright people could figure out that was what they were being tested for.
2 is generally true, but why then did any bias show against Latinos? Admittedly I read that a while ago, and don't think I read the original research.
In the absence of other information, whites in our sample rely on ethnic cues to "fill in the blanks" -- assuming undocumented Latinos are uneducated, unassimilated and potential financial problems for U.S. society.
That's a bowdlerized explanation of how the blanks are filled in by American racists, who in the real world say, "They're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime; they're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
The researchers want us to know that because we make Trump-like assumptions about Mexican immigrants, that means we're not racists.
4.3: Of course! No one would accuse Trump of racism! He ate a giant taco.
I'm not sure how research showing that white Californians automatically assume the "worst" about Latinos compared to other ethnicities, until told otherwise, shows they aren't racist against Latinos.
I guess it's not quite as bad as the sort that assumes the worst even when told otherwise.
Person A - "I have nothing against Mexicans, it's just that I don't like people coming to this country that don't speak English and don't want to learn it, and aren't willing to work"
"Well, Juan speaks English well, and has had a steady full-time job for 2 years"
"Oh, sounds he's one of the good ones. I have no problem with him".
Person B
" I hate Mexicans! They don't speak English and they're lazy and they take away jobs from Americans!"
"Well, Juan speaks English well, and has had a
We can all agree that Person B is racist, while steady full-time job for 2 years"
"Sounds like the worst kind of Mexican! The kind that's going to take our country away from us!"
Surely we can all agree that Person B is a racist, while Person A is a model citizen.
8 should probably be my last comment here ever.
We hear about how people don't realize that things in this country could be improved because we are not familiar with how they do things elsewhere. The flipside is that people don't realize that people in the US are much less anti-immigrant than almost anywhere else, we have less endemic sexual harassment and sex discrimination than most places that aren't Northern Europe, etc. I saw someone on Facebook bemoaning how "America is a fucked up place" because the state of Virginia JUST NOW IN 2016 made it illegal to marry a 12-year-old. Come on! Look around the world, or look around the extent of human history, and realize how unusual it is to have a society where marrying 12-year-olds is unacceptable.
Does the 12-year-old speak English?
10: Comparing ourselves to "the extent of human history" is setting the bar pretty low.
10: I'd be willing to guess that the vast majority of the human population lives in countries where the age of consent is higher than 12, but no way am I going to google for a map of the world that's colour coded by age of consent.
The flipside is that people don't realize that people in the US are much less anti-immigrant than almost anywhere else
Except China, apparently.
The age of consent to sex has always been higher than 12 in all US states for many decades, if not always, but there have been exceptions for MARRIAGE with consent of parents.
10: Eh, it's fair to keep things in perspective, but that cuts both ways.
1. I'm lucky to live in the developed world in general, but within that context, America could be a lot better at some things than the rest of it. Few countries seem better than us at everything, but many seem better than us at certain things, and we should try to do something about that.
2. A mentor figure growing up had a life lesson I've taken to heart: "don't compare yourself to other people, compare yourself to yourself." How good we are compared to other people isn't as important as how good we are compared to how we could be doing, or how much farther we have to go.
Yeah, Minivet. Peep doesn't speak English.
I think there are currently fights going on to raise the marriage age here. Its 18, unless you are Muslim, in which case its 12 for females and 14 for males, or Hindu, in which case its 14 for females and 16 for males.
16.3: I think that only works for a certain kind of personality, the kind that thrives on self-denial. Most people need to feel like they're on the winning side of history.
I'd be willing to guess that the vast majority of the human population lives in countries where the age of consent is higher than 12, but no way am I going to google for a map of the world that's colour coded by age of consent.
12 is very low, of course. But it wouldn't surprise me to learn that much of the human population lives in countries where the age of consent is under 16. Not that I'm inclined to google for a colour-coded map.
That map is kind of fascinating in the lack of any discernible pattern whatsoever.
East/west in the US, there's some pattern. Mostly the 18 states are on the west coast.
Mostly, yeah, but then you've got Virginia, Florida, and Delaware. And Washington as an exception the other way.
And internationally, overwhelmingly Muslim countries have both the highest and the lowest, including some with no age law at all.
I guess all the countries that require marriage are Muslim, so that's a pattern. But it's not a particularly coherent set of them.
The flipside is that people don't realize that people in the US are much less anti-immigrant than almost anywhere else, we have less endemic sexual harassment and sex discrimination than most places that aren't Northern Europe, etc.
Eh, this sort of rubs me the wrong way, even though I take your point and probably agree with it. The American exceptionalism is a bit irritating, though admittedly it's your response to an equally American exceptionalist ('America is the most effed-up place EVER!') proclamation.
But to meet you at least halfway: the Trumpsters notwithstanding, I honestly believe that the US is much less anti-immigrant overall than most of the rest of the western world (and here I include my home and native land of Canada, which is also an immigrant-rich society).
But on sex discrimination and gender equity and the like, where the only fair and reasonable points of comparison would be other western or Northern European countries: no. Nope, not at all: No. On this score the US is very far from leading the pack, and it actually lags significantly behind many other western nations in terms of female political representation, for example.
It's hard to compare age of sexual availability/marriage with the past because it's complicated by the decreasing age of menarche. In lots of cultures women were considered sexually available after menarche, but historically that tended to occur around ages 15-18, and possibly even later if there was extended malnutrition. Nowadays menarche at 9 is not all that uncommon, and the average age is I think 12 (too lazy to google).
IIRC scholarship tracking marriage ages in Europe show they rise in times of hardship and lower in times of prosperity. The US in the 1950s (a time of prosperity) actually had by modern historical standard a pretty low average age of marriage. In 19th century Northern Europe, average age at marriage stayed in the late 20s for me and mid 20s for women.
Every pop song from mid-20th-century is about wanting to fuck a seventeen year-old so I'm glad we've gotten better on that score, even if we're still exactly as racist as I would have guessed.
Every pop song from mid-20th-century is about wanting to fuck a seventeen year-old so I'm glad we've gotten better on that score, even if we're still exactly as racist as I would have guessed.
I commented twice because we also progressed in the time after my first comment.
Mick Jagger could totally do it with the thirteen-year-old in Stray Cat Blues in Argentina, Nigeria, Spain or Japan.
Eh, you know, it's a funny old world. My 15-year-old son just asked me about Jimmy Page just yesterday. He wanted to know about "statutory rape" (and Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, this parenting gig is so much more complex, and fraught with perils and pitfalls, than I ever could have imagined, before I signed on for it). My son was clear that Jimmy Page was a baddie, and probably a bit of a degenerate, but was he actually guilty of rape?
"Yes," I said, he was very much guilty indeed, and I attempted to explain.
I think my own parents had it easier, though: back in the day, Sister Shannon getting all New World-hippie-dippie about children's self-esteem was the extent of the challenge.
OK, I'm hoping that 35 is because "Hammer of the Gods" is being circulated as reading material in the son's high school. Which would be great because it means that nothing has changed in high school since I was in it. The song remains the same.
Oh: and also, my dad and a few cronies and cousins of his, once threw their English teacher overboard, off a bridge and into Ottawa's Rideau Canal. To sink or swim (but they knew he could swim, of course).
"We were but savages," my dad always said, "but the priests taught us Latin, and attempted to civilize we wild boys."
I now quite seriously despise Zep, by the way. They took a bunch of African-American bluesie songs, the context for which was Jim Crow repression, and poverty, and family; and attempted to make it all about Robert Plant and Jimmy Page all ramblin' on, all without any real care in the world, from one Scottish mansion to another. Ew (and yes, it is to shudder).
Which bridge?
The Pretoria Bridge, as best I can make out.
My dad went to St. Patrick's Collegiate in Ottawa's Old Town. He used to have to hitch-hike to school, and by all accounts, his attendance was a little bit irregular.
39 - oh but Gordon Lightfoot is cool. Fucking Canada.
I'd throw things off the Bank Street Bridge as a boy: we belonged to Southminster UCC at Bank & Aylmer, right at the Canal.
I remember hearing "Immigrant Song" on the firing range at Ft. Campbell, winter 70-71. A new sound, but I wasn't that taken with it. Really, really cold, even with multiple layers and in sunlight. Funny how you remember things like that.
Huh, the things you learn when you google "Jimmy Page rape"
42: We're all about One Chord Gord, Tigre. We don't actually care about being cool, of course (and a good thing, that!). And oh, hey, did I ever tell you about that time my own first cousin sat beside Gordie on a plane? Apparently he was quite charming, and an excellent conversationalist. The flight was from Toronto to Halifax.
Combining themes of patriotism and happy teenage uncoolness, my proud heritage minute has to be sex with Gord Downie's cousin while listening to Rush.
44: My dad knew everyone or his or her family of a French or Irish Catholic background in Ottawa. He spoke French with a joual fluency: I mean, he could totally joke around in French, but he would then deny that he knew even a single word of that language. He grew up in Mechansville, a working-class French and Irish neighbourhood in Old Ottawa. He learned French "on the streets," as it were, and his French was actually quite good.
Mechanicsville, is what I meant to say.
I'm right beside Mechanicsville frequently these days, in Hinto/nbur/g. I love it there. I'm going to check out those bridges first chance I get. I particularly enjoy the crazy O train.
PJ and IDP, did you grow up with that Angel Square story? I only heard about it this year but it seems to be a touchstone.
sex with Gord Downie's cousin while listening to Rush.
Holy shit. I don't even know what the American equivalent would be. Sex with Betsy Ross on top of an American flag while also shooting a gun?
Followed the link in 45. Are we really going to hold beating up Madonna against anyone? The kind of wild thing about the Jimmy Page incident is that the same girl lost her virginity to David Bowie when she was 15 (so Page couldn't have kidnapped her at 14?). Her own account is that she enjoyed those times. I'm not in favor of getting rid of the age of consent or anything, but I'm inclined to no harm no foul in this case. I am in favor of digging up Dickens and kicking him in the face, however.
If I could have combined it with hockey and a visit to the emergency department it would have been more Canadian. Hindsight.
I should probably go to bed before I talk myself into NAMBLA: Reconsidered.
This video of a Canadian being born is so great.
The Lori Maddox story as linked in 45 is honestly almost comforting compared to the way I remember it (from, yes, reading Hammer of the Gods in 10th grade though I'm not sure how that happened as I did not care about Led Zepplin at all). I remembered it as everyone just being super chill about him banging a 14-year old and no one thinking anything was wrong. But if he had to kidnap and hide her that indicates it wasn't so cool with everyone which is... encouraging?
The Lori Maddox story as linked in 45 is honestly almost comforting compared to the way I remember it (from, yes, reading Hammer of the Gods in 10th grade though I'm not sure how that happened as I did not care about Led Zepplin at all). I remembered it as everyone just being super chill about him banging a 14-year old and no one thinking anything was wrong. But if he had to kidnap and hide her that indicates it wasn't so cool with everyone which is... encouraging?
I honestly don't know the details, except that she seems to have written about it fondly, so I don't feel sure that he was actually hiding her away. Not one I'm going to the mat over.
Eh, I love Sophie Grégoire so much, I feel I might have to call #47 out. Pistols at dawn; but Gord Downie, well he's our Gordie, isn't he?
All I know is that if someone had told me, when I was 15, "you feel cool when older guys pay attention to you but GUESS WHAT older guys who show interest in you are not considered cool by their peers," it would have saved me and a handful of like twelfth-tier hardcore bassists a lot of time.
Yeah, but Jimmy Page had like one peer and that was Hendrix. How was he going to compete with that? Might as well bang the teenagers.
The Lori Maddox thing is one where I'm at least tempted to go with "it was 70s rock stars come on." I mean, that's probably not the RIGHT way to think about it but there's gotta be at least a little attenuating circumstance. Also, despite my love for it, Hammer of the Gods (basis for that Cracked article) is mostly lies. Also also, aside from extraordinarily underage Maddox (yes I know) Page doesn't have a general reputation as an insane horrible creep and aside from having the super underage sex (yes I know) he doesn't seem to have treated her too badly. He's no Kim Fowley. Also also David Bowie had sex with Lori Maddox when she was even more underage and no one goes around beating up David Bowie's corpse for that.
I mean yes this is clearly 50% stockholm syndrome but here she is saying years later on balance it was all super awesome.
OK, comment already regretted. Do NOT have sex with 15 year olds unless you are in fact David Bowie/Jimmy Page and it is in fact 1977 and the 15 year old is in fact definitely for real into being in the groupie scene and you aren't going to be a disgusting Kim Fowley style jerk about it. And even then don't do it. But still, we're all better off for knowing that there once was a 70s.
I think one lesson from the map in 23 is that age of consent laws are clearly not driven by any sort of consistent internal logic, let alone empirical evidence. Which is of course not to say that anything goes; obviously there's an age-based distinction between when someone can and can't be said to meaningfully consent. But with laws like this you have to draw a bright line somewhere, and different jurisdictions have drawn that line in different places in a way that seems essentially arbitrary and not at all externally consistent.
Concerning ages of consent, it should be noticed that in enlightened topless Spain, the age of consent is 16 as of last year! Before that it was set at 12 in 1995 and raised to 13 in 1999.
In Scotland, sex with a 13 year old is not prosecuted as rape, but as "having intercourse with an older child".
Yeah, but Jimmy Page had like one peer and that was Hendrix Jeff Beck. Hendrix was orthogonal to what everybody else was doing. Beck didn't have the personality to be a megastar and is too fastidious about his music to live that life (turned down offers to join Pink Floyd and Rolling Stones). I've no idea who he did and didn't shag during his brief period of stardom, but there are no nasty stories.
65: meanwhile in the US you get ludicrous stuff like this
Every pop song from mid-20th-century is about wanting to fuck a seventeen year-old so I'm glad we've gotten better on that score>
God, yes, imagine the horror of a musical genre aimed at teenagers which might suggest that sex between consenting persons of their own age is a good idea.
60: I'm sure Sophie indended to express only her intense admiration and similar fandom.
God, yes, imagine the horror of a musical genre aimed at teenagers which might suggest that sex between consenting persons of their own age is a good idea.
That's not quite how, say, Happy Birthday Sweet Sixteen comes off.
re: 66
To the extent that Page took Beck's entire schtick from the JBG (and even some of the songs/riffs), cloned it, and hey presto, Led Zeppelin.
As you know, Beck, of course, is by far the greater guitarist. I think he's the only one of the 60s British Blues boom still making halfway interesting music, and his guitar style now is completely different from his style 50 years ago. Beck also has a long history of collaborating with and having women in his bands. Which also mitigates against the possibility he might be a dick.
Ironic (I read someone else make this comment somewhere else) that Beck's look formed the basis for Nigel Tufnell, when Beck is really not very Tufnell at all.
FWIW, someone I know met him at breakfast in a B&B, and said he was very nice.
Beck also has a long history of collaborating with and having women in his bands.
That had escaped me. I knew he's worked with Tal Wilkenfeld, but who wouldn't if they had the chance? And there's this, of course. Well, good lad. He has of course been married as often as Henry VIII, but there you go.
They hypothetical songs in 67-last are not remotely the sort of thing I was commenting on BUT if someone could read my comment that way, that means I am doing a good job of consistently presenting myself as entirely anti-sex and so I am pleased with myself.
Also I mean I'm not particulary concerned about whether Jimmy Page was the good kind or the bad kind of teenfucker but this pass you give him, where can he use it?
did you grow up with that Angel Square story?
No, I've just now learned about it, and it was published twenty years after I left. But I'm going to have to read it, or perhaps see the movie, given how many intersections I have with it.
re: 71
Jennifer Batten was in his band, too. His current band also has two women in it, etc. I don't doubt he's not some paradigm of feminism, but at least he obviously rates and collaborates actively with female musicians (not just singers).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYeq6XoOg8s
Wait I don't understand. California isn't in the south. Racism can't happen here.
76: I think the Missouri Compromise allows it everywhere south of about Carmel.
I don't doubt he's not some paradigm of feminism
Paragon, you mean? Anyway Gretchen Menn is on record saying she'd ditch Zepparella to go on tour with Jeff Beck, so there's someone in a good position to assign a Beck/Page ranking.
Also also David Bowie had sex with Lori Maddox when she was even more underage and no one goes around beating up David Bowie's corpse for that.
Yeah, fair point. And I am guilty as charged (in blaming Page while overlooking Bowie).
I do think the context of "it was 70s rock stars come on" offers a bit of attenuation, though I'm pretty sure this is the wrong way to think of it. And anyway, Jimmy Page strikes me as genuinely creepy, in a way that, say, Robert Plant (who also engaged in all sorts of horrible 70s rock god behaviour) does not. To put it another way -- and this is admittedly based on vague impressions formed by statements by Page and Plant in various post-Zeppelin interviews -- I get the sense that Plant is at least embarrassed by/uncomfortable with some of the excesses of the 1970s; whereas Page? maybe not so much. And I strongly suspect that Page treated Lori Maddox very badly indeed (which doesn't excuse Bowie, of course!).
I'm right beside Mechanicsville frequently these days, in Hinto/nbur/g. I love it there.
Penny! I know Hintonburg! Used to go to Mass there sometimes as a kid, at Saint-Francois d'Assise on Wellington.
Also, my dad grew up on Armstrong St., across from the Parkdale Market. He and his sister and parents lived upstairs, while his grandparents lived downstairs, and ran a small grocery shop from the front of the house. About two doors down from the Carleton Tavern, which was owned and operated by Uncle Tommy and Aunt Bridget. The Carleton Tavern is now hipster territory, all vintage-cool, which I do appreciate, but which also sort of makes me laugh.
I know Hintonburg! Used to go to Mass there sometimes as a kid, at Saint-Francois d'Assise on Wellington.
Got to love Unfogged. Wow. My partner and I, both protestants, are enamoured with Saint-Francois d'Assise and go in whenever the doors are open and it looks like we won't bother anyone. It's so spare and peaceful.
And I have walked past your dad's family house many times this past year. Wait, what? Your aunt and uncle owned the Carleton? That was/is the main place to go after work! I'm too old to hipster but my cow-orkers are right in that zone. Minimum beard requirement! Do you get back there much? Can I send you a picture next time i'm there?
I can't wait to go look at that house (I'll look for one in that location that looks like it could have had a storefront) and imagine your people there. Then it's a beer at the Carleton, a trip to Pretoria bridge to throw somebody off, and I'll finish up with a service at the UCC for IDP.
Wait, what? Your aunt and uncle owned the Carleton?
Yeah, for real. Uncle Tommy Moran and Aunt Bridget Mary McDermott, they owned the Carleton back in the day.
And here's my dad (just his leg!) with his sister Rosemary, at 231 Armstrong, outside the Carleton Tavern.
Can I send you a picture next time i'm there?
Please do! Even when I was a kid and then a teenager, the Carleton Tavern connection was considered a little bit disreputable. We didn't talk about that (nor did we talk about how my dad basically grew up above a small mom-and-pop grocery shop that was run by his grandmother).
Oh. my. goodness. This is astonishing. Right where your Aunt Rosemary is standing, I have had many good conversations. Did they live at 231? What I think of now as Holland's Cake and Shake (right next door to the Carleton on Armstrong)? Could women go in the tavern then?
http://imgur.com/a/ll6Cm
From a cousin of my grandfather who was an RCAF pilot in World War II, and who then became an officer:
During the 1930s Alex and Annie operated a small grocery shop in their home on Armstrong St. In the depths of the depression my father, who was a railroader, got very little work and we were often short of cash. At those times our credit was good and we could always get the essentials at the Morans. There were lots of card games and visits to and fro. Uncle Alex was also a fiddle player and he and Aunt Em Delaney played for dancing and entertainment.
This cousin's younger brother was shot down by the Luftwaffe, and spent over a year as a POW in a German work camp. When Emmet Patrick went to look for his younger brother, he spent months looking in British military hospitals. When he finally found his brother, they went north to Edinburgh to celebrate, and then shipped home to Canada.
(posted before seeing 85).
Ottawa: the Pittsburgh of Canada.
It's feeling that way. I really do love the vibe though, it feels like Mile End in Mtl in the 90s.
(posted before seeing 89)
Well, this is just amazing.
Did they live at 231?
Yeah, they did. At 231 Armstrong. Well, it's a funny old world, now, isn't it?
Ottawa: the Pittsburgh of Canada.
It would be even more like this if 90% of the Pittsburgh commenters were commenting about Pittsburgh, from Canada, having relocated there.
93: Trump could still win, so just give it time.
If it's okay with you, I'd love to show people there the photo. I'll be there in October, working around Wellington and Holland. Thanks for the great stories.
I've never been to Ottawa, but I've long wanted to. Seems like a neat city. Every summer growing up my father and godfather and I would spend a week fishing on a lake in the cottage country near the Rideau Canal. Good times.
93: Everyone would be welcome. Another Trudeau in, even. You can turn up at the Carleton.
I'm sorry, but Ottawa is too fundamentally French to ever be Pittsburgh.
We had some French people,but George Washington took care of it.
They left some placenames behind, though.
96: That sounds blissful. I would love to follow the lock system from Ottawa down to Kingston. I may be weird but I love the place. Kids ice-skating to school! Everybody commuting on the bike paths! Halford would hateit.
And the electric utility, apparently.
103: Well, they're hard to move. (Speaking of which, dalriata, I answered your power purchase question in the other thread.)
Kids ice-skating to school!
Yeah, I used to skate to school. I can still feel that sense of freedom, the cold air whipping by, and my skates all laced up tight. And my ancestrals? they were the Irish labourers who built the Rideau Canal, of course. After skating, there was always hot chocolate.
102: We went fishing on a few of the lakes in the chain (ours wasn't)--I think Whitehorse, and a few of the others. Lots of nooks and crannies. I would love to be there in winter and go skating on the canal proper.
101/103: There's a local financial firm, Fort Pitt Capital, that advertises on PBS. It amuses me that their logo is clearly the outline of Fort Duquesne.
104: Thanks!
There's also a local bakery called Au Bon Pain.
Ottawa has a unique canal/skate-rink, we have a bridge that's set on fire and comes within minutes of collapse. Once again, Canada wins.
After a look at a map I'm conflating two lakes, Whitefish and Red Horse. We definitely fished on the latter (not actually on the canal, either) but I dunno the former, although we'd frequently go to Seeley's Bay. Anyway, it's beautiful country up there.
I skated the canal end to end year before last, it was gorgeous. Lots of blood in my skates by the end but totally worth it. And wine and snacks along the way, that helped. Great the mix of tourists like me and then a bunch of people just getting to where they needed to go.
I started noticing French street names all over Pittsburgh after reading a book about those wars back in the 1750s. Joncaire Street, Jumonville Street, Loraine Street.
In addition to the utter lack of a grid system, Pittsburgh has no discernible theme or pattern to the street names. You don't have a neighborhood that is all trees, or all Presidents, or something.a
In the area near Polish Hill and the VA Hospital you have a parallel series of Cherokee Street, Anaheim Street, Bryn Mawr Street, Clarissa Street, Gypsum Way, Adelaide Street, and Rampart Street. These are bound on the west and east by Milwaukee Street and Iowa Street. Milwaukee continues past a little park and merges with Carnak Street to turn into Finland Street, then dead ends. A couple blocks away are Zero Way and Allequippa Street which is clearly spelled wrong.
I don't know if Centre Avenue is spelled wrong for Frenchie reasons or British ones.
109: It sure is. I know just where you mean; we were right around there (as a kid) on Upper Rock Lake. Half an hour away from you. I miss it.
There's the Mexican War Streets on the North Side, but that might be the exception that proves the rule. Most of the streets on my neighborhood are named for the farmers whose land it once was. Notable exception is "Pocusset", which looks hella New England Algonquian but a quick search isn't bringing anything up.
"Pocusset" is Algonquin for "Slowly eroding into Four Mile Run."
"Hobart" is French for "Commercial Dishing Machine."
If anyone can explain why there's a "Transvaal Avenue" near Perry Highway, I'm all ears. It's near Speck Street, San Pedro Street, Aquatic Way, Zug Avenue, and Dornestic Street. Yes, Dornestic, not Domestic. Not a typo. Well, it was probably a typo 100 years ago.
Would they also be responsible for Wanker Drive, a few blocks west by the elementary school?
Hey my dad grew up in Ottawa too. And my grandfather was an RCAF navigator in WWII. But Protestants.
I've probably mentioned the streets in Greenfield related to 19th century Irish self-rule: Parnell, Gladstone, Home Rule.
Sorry to shit out Pittsburgh all over your thread, Ottawonians. We can't help it.
||
Paging VW and JPJ. Request for recommendations for Canadian history books. I'm in Vancouver right now and am finding out that the First Nations in BC are negotiating treaties now, because they never did when BC became part of the country.
Any recommendations for good histories of the legal relations between the various native groups and the Canadian Federal and provincial governments?
|>
117: Presumably in sympathy with its mine-heavy-metals-and-shoot-strikers business model.
Mining in western Pennsylvania is more about coal than heavy metals, but fair enough. I suspect it's more about commemorating British victories in the Boer War, though.
The Penny-JPJ exchange on this thread is wonderful.
117. Probably dates from the British-Boer wars. There was a great deal of sympathy, even in Britain, for the Afrikaaners' anti-imperial resistance, and I would expect even more in the colonies. You had to overlook the fact that they were slave owners: nobody's perfect.
By contrast, the Pretoria Bridge mentioned above is evidence for the opposite sentiment.
Second 126.
125: There's lots of coal too! No socio-environmental catastrophe too awful for the Transvaal!
127: Both Boer Republics had definitely banned actual chattel slavery by 1898, though I can't at all remember when; quite possibly after the British won the first round in 1879-80. But your general point is right of course: coerced labor all the way down.
128 amused me. At first I thought it would be from Dominion solidarity in the world wars. Not so much.
123: I was reading Naomi Klein's climate change book (it's informative, but her polemic style turns me off) and that was mentioned as important; the large amount of non-ceded land in BC would give the First Nations there much more leeway in stopping any pipeline to the coast. Wonder if that was the precipitating event in formalizing treaties?
127: That guess seems likely, modulo that we were ex-colonial in a kind of important way then. Pitt has a neat historic map viewer. Unfortunately, Transvaal Avenue is right on the city limits so the maps aren't very good there. In 1900, it definitely did not exist; where it would go was farmland belonging to a Jacob J. Speck. In 1910, there's a road there and it's all plotted out as a residential neighborhood but it isn't labeled. In 1923 It's there and labeled, but spelt "Transval." Between 1900 and 1910 works for it at least being in the news due to the Second Boer War.
130: they appear to be fighting pipelines now. There is one group, the Nisga a which signed a treaty fairly recently and have taken some if their artifacts back from museums.
Any recommendations for good histories of the legal relations between the various native groups and the Canadian Federal and provincial governments?
Sorry, I can't recommend anything (I almost never read Canadian history, which is pretty bad). The only stuff I've read has been historically-inflected political theory by, e.g., James Tully and Will Kymlicka. As I recall (and it's been a long time since I read it), Kymlicka's Multicultural Citizenship does have a fair bit to say on native land claims -- but it's not the kind of history that you are looking for.
So here is something that I certainly never learned in my high school Canadian history classes:
However, the last of the historical treaties was signed in 1923. At that time, the federal government made it a criminal offence for a First Nation to hire a lawyer to pursue land claims settlements.
And btw, though produced by the Gov of Canada, this Fact Sheet provides a useful summary and chronology of the treaty process.
And to return to cryptic ned's point way up above, the US does not hold a monopoly on the viciously racist treatment of indigenous peoples. Canada doesn't exactly cover itself in glory on this score.
Hey my dad grew up in Ottawa too.
Where in Ottawa, do you know? I wonder if our dads ever crossed paths?
I don't remember where. I know it was near where MEC is now and was a camera store probably 10 years ago. My grandfather was in the RCAF even after the war so I assume it was near some sort of base.
At that time, the federal government made it a criminal offence for a First Nation to hire a lawyer to pursue land claims settlements.
What if they do it pro bono?
Down in South London there's a little cluster of late 19th century streets called Afghan Road, Cabul Road, Candahar Road, Khyber Road, Nepaul Road and Zulu Mews.
I hope the reenactment societies make good use of them.
Unfortunately the theme isn't taken any further than the street names. They're not rows of Victorian brick-built imitation kraals, hill forts or sangars.
There's probably a society that reënacts 19th century street naming committees.
140. Read Caryl Brahms and S.J.Simon's take on the naming of the London Terminus of the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway, in Don't, Mr Disraeli. Not quite a street naming committee, but similar.
141: in fact read it, and the rest of the book, just anyway. Also "No Bed for Bacon".
Any Tommy worth his salt would surely improvise a way around 139.
Yes, probably those two first, then go back to A Bullet in the Ballet.
