I'm more nervous about the final one. Fox somehow gets the last word.
I hope she comes out swinging. If she can get under his skin, call him out when he lies, get him flustered...she'll destroy him. If she's cautious and gives him space to bully him...eesh.
You couldn't pay me enough to watch them.
I'm more worried about the moderation. I've not bothered to inform myself about the format, but I'm concerned about whether Trump will be allowed, either formally or by moderator malpractice, to blather on and constantly interrupt. If he can control the content, he won't win supporters on the strength of his ideas, but he can keep Clinton from having a chance to present hers coherently
I don't ordinarily watch these things, but I'm visiting my mom and she wants to watch it so I guess I should too.
Thanks for reminding me I've been so shitty at earning money.
4: In that case it will depend on whether the cameras show her sitting there rolling her eyes like she did at the Benghazi hearing, which surprisingly worked.
Trump: For my opening, I'm announcing that I, not Obama, am the Antichrist.
Trump Supporters: Only a strong man would admit something like that.
Washington Post, the next day: There is no evidence that Trump is the Antichrist, but the Trump Foundation has received $262,000 from someone named Ant. I. Christ.
Jerry Falwell said the Antichrist was Jewish.
Also, "phlegm-gazi". Did Sam Wang make that up or has it been going around?
I doubt he coined it, but I don't think I've seen it anywhere else (and I have seen him use it before).
If Trump's performance is anything short of a dumpster fire, he's going to be declared the winner.
On the other hand, there is probably a 30% chance of dumpster fire.
Whoever first does the finger-twirling "cuckoo" gesture and mouths "bla bla bla" while the other talks will be the winner.
10 Thank God for Sam Wang. Was Silver always so hacktacular?
I am also very, very nervous about the debate, even though I don't think it will have a major impact on the election.
I just feel so starved for basic normalcy and competency in this election, I want the debate to feel satisfying (even though, again, I know that presidential debates almost never feel satisfying).
Can I slightly derail? How can I be constructively involved in this election? I'm in deep-blue territory, several hours from the closest swing district, so local canvassing is a waste of time. I've seen the phone banking system but what else? I've been thinking about planning a trip to NV (Senate + NV-04 in play) but I haven't turned up any organizations actively recruiting there.* Any recommendations?
* MoveOn has posted exactly on thing on their website since Bernie Sanders dropped out. They put out a press release saying they're hiring people to do things in swing states, but... what are those people doing?
22: Give money. It always helps. The Clinton campaign donation page is here, and Sam Wang has an ActBlue page for the most competitive Senate races here (or you can give to individual campaigns, of course).
22: The Clinton campaign is bussing people from blue states to canvass in swing states. I spent eight hours yesterday on a bus to ring doorbells and register voters in Reno, which was a bit blood-from-a-stone but still achieved something, and definitely diluted the nerves everyone has. There's a page on her site where you can look up events by zip code, and such transportation arrangements are listed by point of origin.
Domain name slash events. Nevada voter registration is ending in a few weeks.
Not that they won't be canvassing after the registration deadline, but in different ways.
Does giving money to Clinton really help? I've given money to Wang's group before and gave to Masto just today (she's got a matching grant thing going for another hour or so). I would be very happy to hear that money (ahem) trumps time and labor, because writing checks is way easier than canvassing or talking on the phone.
Did you know you don't even have to write the checks anymore? Computers!
Thanks, Minivet. That's exactly what I was looking for (in all the wrong places).
Sam Wang has an ActBlue page
Bias! I will only trust conservative unskewed polls now.
Very nervous, almost certainly watching at least the first hour. I don't quite know why. Fortunately I have somewhere to be at 7:30 which may save me from pointless despair.
Pointless despair is fine. It's well-justified despair I'm afraid of.
I've been much calmer when I accepted that no matter what happens, I will find it incomprehensible. Like, Clinton will out-debate Trump so badly that he bursts into tears on stage. I will think, "Perfect." The next day the media will claim that this really humanized Trump so he is the real winner. He'll go up 5% in the polls, and I will find it incomprehensible. It's much quicker if I'm just uncomprehending now.
This must be what it's like to be 90.
TWYRCL has committed me to a string quartet concert and a dinner reservation, so I'll miss the whole show. Thank Christ.
33 is the beginning of wisdom. And its end I'm afraid.
Does giving money to Clinton really help?
No, but it does in other races. One source for whom would be the list at Our Revolution. Regardless of your support of Bernie, I would trust them to identify Democratic campaigns that need money.
I'm sure someone here will disagree.
36. Do you suppose that Sanders bitter enders who want to make a point by supporting the Greens could be persuaded to abandon American politics for a while and phone bank for this guy?
Does giving money to Clinton really help? I've given money to Wang's group before and gave to Masto just today
On giving money, you've got the right idea. Dems run a coordinated campaign in almost every state, which means that all the campaigns, from city council to presidential, work off the same lists, share data, and coordinate outreach. So money to a Senate race also helps the presidential, and time volunteering for a presidential will also boost the prospects of other competitive Dems. GOTV is GOTV, so if you can target places that are competitive for both the presidential and the Senate, you're doubling the impact of your money (or your time). So, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin would be at the top of my list.
Not as much as Ohio, but still, you want to take that into account when booking your travel.
Pennsylvania is full of assholes.
Well sure, but if 2016 has proven anything, it's that assholes matter.
I'm really torn on watching the debate. On the one hand I want to see how it goes, but on the other I know that Trump will say some utterly absurd things and the moderator will just let them go. His strategy of lying so much that it's impossible to call him out on all his lies is a pretty effective one, and his demonization of the media means they are gunshy about calling him out on it. I can easily stomach 90 minutes of Hillary blathering on about concrete policy proposals I mostly support, but Trump is so fucking hard to take even in small doses. He's just such a fucking asshole it's incomprehensible to me how anyone could support him.
Maybe I'll make it a drinking game. One drink per regular lie from Trump, two drinks when he makes up something completely original like blaming Hillary for birtherism, and three if he mentions his penis. I'll take tomorrow off to recover from the alcohol poisoning.
Picked up a debate-watching six pack last night. No way I can do this sober.
Unfortunately I have to wake up at 3am to watch it so I probably shouldn't drink then.
I have more than a six-pack, and a typhoon day tomorrow, but I'm not wasting either on the debate.
How goes the line of argument that money to the presidential campaign doesn't make a difference? Just in the same way that one individual vote doesn't make a difference?
I feel compelled to watch but I'm kind of terrified of how it's going to go. I did warn my wife in advance that I want to watch it, so she can arrange to not be anywhere in earshot.
47: Clinton already has, what, a billion dollars? And there's very little evidence of significant campaign effects at the presidential level. The smaller the election, the more a marginal dollar actually matters. You only need maybe a million(?) dollars to run a credible House campaign. (Though actually this year in places like NV the races are probably pretty saturated.)
I feel compelled to watch but I'm kind of terrified of how it's going to go.
Yep. Which is why I'm filtering it through the comforting prism of Twitter and you guys. Saves me from yelling impotently at the screen impotently -- at least I can type impotently at the screen. #progress
I was driving somewhere and NPR had an interview with a political historian who played all the famous debate moments (no Jack Kennedy, etc. Stuff everyone knows) and he played Reagan saying "there you go again" and that was a real "oh shit" moment. People just want to be entertained and they just want to elect the guy who wins a schoolyard fight. There might as well not be questions.
52: I had the same reaction to that. And then I read a couple of NYer pieces about the election and thought, what a quaint delusion to imagine that reason has anything to do with the outcome.
49: I think we're at the point where we need to do what we can on the off chance it helps, rather than demanding RCT evidence first. Could be labor, could be money.
We don't have cable TV. A neighbor is having a debate-watching party but Atossa won't be fit for taking out in public after 9 p.m., and our baby monitor doesn't transmit as far as that neighbor's house. Cassandane and I are trying to decide whether to skip the debate entirely, or one of us go while the other stays home, possibly switching halfway through. If I don't watch the debate, I'll blame parenthood. (I should look into streaming it, but that probably wouldn't change our plans too much.)
20
Was Silver always so hacktacular?
I haven't been reading him too much lately, but he's pretty much the most responsible, empirical pundit there is, and the problem is just that all the rest are pure 200-proof hacks, isn't it?
If Silver did get worse, I'd point to the Republican primary. He was one of those people who just couldn't believe Trump would win until he actually did. Silver posted a mea culpa about not following the data on it, but I don't know if he learned his lesson from it or not.
Trump: For my opening, I'm announcing that I, not Obama, am the Antichrist.
Trump Supporters: Only a strong man would admit something like that.
Washington Post, the next day: There is no evidence that Trump is the Antichrist, but the Trump Foundation has received $262,000 from someone named Ant. I. Christ.
Politico, the next day: Clinton's refernece to Trump as "the Antichrist" cannot be confirmed as truthful. Rating: pants-on-fire.
I realize that this is an unfortunate way to think, but do the armed forces and the spooks really want to take orders from a thieving bag of cats? The last time we talked about his finances, I thought we agreed that possible hidden debts are the big factual question-- the debt holders have power over DJT. Wouldn't the spooks leak that information?
Or is there somehow insurance against a vindictive moron at the top?
If private citizen Trump gets away with shafting his creditors, I don't see it as a big problem for him to shaft them once he's potus.
our baby monitor doesn't transmit as far as that neighbor's house.
A repeater, or digitize and route it through IP?
Anyway, is it really only on cable? Used to be big national events (superb owl/most sports championships) were still on network TV.
The creditors that matter are Russian, not certain this is actually the case because the debt is hidden.
I do not think DJT will come out ahead there, and I don't get how the US security people will let that go ahead. Maybe there is no Russian debt.
It's on all the big broadcast networks - ABC, CBS, NBC, and Fox will all be carrying it.
Lots of streaming, too.:
"Viewers will also be able to watch live streams of the debates. Some of the websites and platforms that will feature debate live streams are: ABC News, Buzzfeed News, CBS News, CNN, C-SPAN, The Daily Caller, Facebook, Fox News, Hulu, Huffington Post, NBC, PBS, Politico, Telemundo, The Wall Street Journal, Twitter, Univision, Yahoo, YouTube."
We don't have cable TV. A neighbor is having a debate-watching party
It's on broadcast, plus a million online streams.
33 is my experience as well. I kinda want to see it, in case there's something spectacular. But I mostly don't, because it would mean watching Trump.
I can watch the best parts in pieces tomorrow.
59-62: We also don't have an antenna. Just Hulu and Netflix. (that's the new IDEOATV, right?) As for the streaming stuff, thanks, we'll check that out.
57: Sounds bad, but they haven't leaked it yet. Several possible explanations come to mind.
1. The spooks don't know what his hidden debt is. Sounds naive, I know the cynical thing is to assume that the spooks know everything about everyone. But presumably they don't know literally everything, and different departments would have to coordinate, and this is a little unorthodox.
2. His hidden debt isn't that bad. There isn't much of it, or it's all to domestic people or groups. (Which is still bad in the sense of a conflict of interest, but isn't the NSA's problem.)
3. The spooks and army brass don't want Trump becoming president, but also have drunk the Kool-Aid so much that they think Clinton is worse.
I thought this was a good summary of Trump's debating style.
[Trump's] tricks weren't familiar tactics to politicians, who prepare for debates with a mix of soaring rhetoric, sharp policy plans, and prepared "zinger" insults. Trump followed a different formula. He approached the debates like the world's most high-stakes reality TV show where he was playing a part -- not of a US president, but of the eventual winner.
Trump created catchphrases. He crafted narratives about heroes and villains. He sprinkled in commentary and asides to the audience. He stirred up interpersonal drama. He faded into the background when he had nothing colorful to add. And he appeared to firmly believe -- like the reality TV contestants we love to hate -- that he was the star of the show.
...
Politicians have talking points. Reality TV stars, and Trump, have catchphrases. By now, you know his: "Build the wall." "Bring jobs back." "Take the oil." "We don't have a country." "Make America great again."
At debates and at rallies, Trump returned to those themes like a band being asked to play "Freebird," never straying too far from his greatest hits. Despite his reputation for being a man who would say just about anything on the debate stage, during the 11 primary debates he attended, he did the opposite. He strung the same catchphrases and stock vocabulary together into short, punchy, grammatically and syntactically unlikely sentences that were the opposite of political rhetoric.
The spooks and army brass don't want Trump becoming president, but also have drunk the Kool-Aid so much that they think Clinton is worse.
Evidence on this? A lot of spooks and (retired) army brass have been popping up to say that Trump will be a disaster. For example, apparently, former CIA head George Bush.
Sometimes, when I'm feeling down about all this, I think about Ted Cruz and how he must know how badly he fucked up and how much shit he's had to eat. It really helps cheer me up.
I realize that this is an unfortunate way to think, but do the armed forces and the spooks really want to take orders from a thieving bag of cats? The last time we talked about his finances, I thought we agreed that possible hidden debts are the big factual question-- the debt holders have power over DJT.
The armed forces and spooks love Trump. And those who don't love him still hate Hillary so much that they are voting for the guy who is supposedly also the antiwar candidate for antiwar people. Who knew? I don't think they will ever worry about not being paid if that is your concern.
Enlisted:
Trump 40%
Johnson 36%
Clinton 14?
Officers:
Johnson 38%
Clinton 28%
Trump 26%
This varies by service, with the Marines being as expected the most psychopathic at 50% Trump and 10% Clinton.
33, 63, my people. I'm not election-anxious overall, but this is heart-in-throat, the feeling is equivalent to watching my own kid compete in a spelling bee against mean private school kids. I plan to take a Valium and go to sleep at 8, and if there is anything absolutely necessary for me to know, Aegisthus can explain it to me very gently tomorrow morning.
66: I don't have any evidence of that. Like I said, it was one possible explanation. If you think enough have endorsed Clinton (either in numbers, or specific key people) to be sure my third explanation isn't correct, then it must be one of the other two.
Or a fourth explanation - they're saving it for mid-October when it would do the most good. Or maybe there's some explanation I haven't thought of. I'm just saying, we're getting close enough that we should expect 57 to happen very soon and start to wonder why it hasn't already.
The armed forces and spooks love Trump.
Counterpoint: If you look at the actual numbers which you posted, Trump's share of the enlisted vote is slightly lower than his share of the general population's vote. His share of the officers' vote is catastrophically bad; not only is he far less popular with military officers than he is with the general public, he's actually in third place. You know what the only state is where Trump is doing that badly? Vermont.
If the armed forces loved Trump, wouldn't this be visible in, say, him getting a majority of their votes?
Meanwhile this shooter in Houston (only shooter killed thank god), was a lawyer mad at another lawyer, if we feel like profiling. I've been to that grocery store a jillion times. Honestly if you had to make me guess the active shooter scenario I was most likely to encounter "disgruntled lawyer, in the Randalls in West U. " would have been at the tip of my tongue.
Maybe 72 should have been in memes thread.
Now, it's perfectly true that they hate Clinton too. But that really doesn't matter. The fact that over a third of a solidly Republican group like the military are planning to vote for a third party candidate and [KANG] THROOOOW THEIR VOTE AWAY! [/KANG] is pretty huge. You can be pretty sure that the bulk of those Johnson voters were, in other years, loyal Republicans.
70 - I realize this is laughably naïve, but maybe they don't want to interfere (so blatantly) in an election? (Or they're holding their fire unless it seems like it's necessary)
I don't think the mechanism of Trump's ethical challenges would be creditors holding power over him. He already routinely screws them and would have more ability to do so as president. Rather, it would be via domestic and foreign powerbrokers jumping over each other to facilitate his company's projects to make him as wealthy as possible in the longer term.
76: has to be blackmail. Kompromat. Trump would be such an easy target to find kompromat on, they probably give him to the work experience kid.
It will take a dead girl or a live work experience kid to stop Trump.
I think it was someone here who recommended Hitler's Thirty Days to Power, and I'm liking it so far. Some commonalities - Schleicher reading him as "an interesting man... who gets easily carried away with his own plans", assuming he's controllable/channelable - and some less so: Hitler's rhetoric did actually consciously avoid certain lines of ideology in the knowledge they wouldn't win votes (the manifest-destiny/extermine-the-Slavs stuff from Mein Kampf); and Hitler had in fact learned how to swim in the upper-class sea, via his passion for Wagner.
I just quit/got fired and am taking off for FL tomorrow to do media stuff and GOTV for a month, wish me luck!
3: there must be a number. I mean, I think I'd do it for a billion dollars. Would I take a job in a private prison for that amount? Probably not.
I'm not sure what to make of this polling result. Does anybody else want to offer an interpretation?
1 in 5 registered voters view Trump and Clinton on equal terms when it comes to whether they are qualified to serve as president -- either because both are qualified, or because neither is -- and among this group, Trump leads Clinton by 35 points, 48 percent to just 13 percent.
Among this group, in fact, Libertarian Gary Johnson actually has a statistically insignificant edge on Clinton. He takes 16 percent of these voters.
That's a striking number, but that is also not a random group of people -- in order for somebody to think that Clinton and Trump are either both qualified or both unqualified for office implies either a disconnect from political campaigning or some fairly strong priors -- and I'm not sure what that set of prior beliefs would look like.
in order for somebody to think that Clinton and Trump are either both qualified or both unqualified for office implies either a disconnect from political campaigning or some fairly strong priors they are too dumb to breathe or too vile to countenance.
88: Or as Trump calls them: "the base."
The Aristocrats American electorate!
87: Kind of hard to interpret the way they present it, because it combines some pretty different sets of opinions together. I have some sense of the thoughts of those who would say neither is qualified, but no idea who would say both are.
Maybe we can get Trump interested in Wagner.
You don't think Trump has been to the opera (which is like three blocks from Trump Tower, right?) in order to properly enact the role of Manhattan Society Person of Note? I'll bet he snacked on Stella D'Oro bread sticks and then took a nice nap.
Trump doesn't seem like the type of Manhattan Society Person who goes to the opera.
"Stupid clown, crying everywhere. Sad!"
Oh, man, I made the mistake of looking at comments/twitter replies to an article about how often the candidates lie (surprise! Trump does it way more) and there are people saying most of what Trump says is a matter of interpretation, neither true nor false. Like saying Obama is the founder of ISIS. Who can say if he is or not?
I don't think they're joking.
There are still $25 tickets to Don Giovanni at the Met tonight which I am now seriously considering buying so that I literally CANNOT watch the debate, but it (the opera) starts in like 45 minutes.
This is the worst feeling ever, how are you guys who have had visceral anxiety about the election all along even still ALIVE.
Update to 5: My mom seems to have decided to cook for our camping trip tomorrow rather than actively watch the debate, but she'll still have it on in the background. I'll probably half-watch while commenting here.
Denn der Götter Ende
dämmert nun auf.
So - werf ich den Brand
in Walhalls prangende Burg.
My on-call statistician isn't watching because he has a softball game so he can't talk me down and I can't manically prepare because it's not actually ME debating so I guess those fragile buttresses have crumbled.
I'm with you, Clytie. I'm not usually anxious and this is intolerable.
Let's hold hands tight like third-graders going into a haunted hay maze.
My brother just emailed my entire family subject line "vomit" message body "vomit vomit anxiety vomit." My aunt is texting me pre-debate thoughts and Houston shooter updates simultaneously so things like "they found Nazi paraphernalia" with no clear context.
80: FL seems like a much better choice than PA or NV. Or MI, if I'm honest about the weather in late October. Good luck/sorry re: quit/firing.
I just, like last week, realized I'm in a swing state. I went from overwhelmingly blue to red to blue again, and now, for my [mumbleth] presidential election, I get to vote in a swing state! I was so excited I started looking up voter registration drives, but they are all at stupid times, like 12-2 on Wednesday.
I like that the recent comments list now says "Monday, Monday, Monday!"
Oh god Aegi put it on I can hear it this is happening. My CHILDREN are watching.
She is blinking A LOT. aaaaugh we're all going to die.
Especially because both candidates' openers are basically just applause lines.
Mexico: The best plants.
Wasn't there an under card debate to start?
That was a pretty technical description of silkscreening actually she is the FACTS candidate
Trump's sniffing is distracting.
Trump keeps sniffling- OMG is he SICK!!!?
Trump's really sticking to trade as much as possible.
Holt following up on Trump's non-answer. Trump continues to not answer.
Clinton sticking to tax policy just as much as Trump on trade.
But tho are the Mexicans stealing our jobs by coming here or by taking our cookie (???) plants to Mexico?
"Donald rooted for the housing collapse." Burn.
Oh man he's actually gonna lose his shit by the end of this, he's already getting twitchy.
Clinton just talked over his objection to her calling him a climate change denialist.
And he got pissed about the Donald thing even though EVERYONE said she would do that, with his "Secretary... is that ok?"
His hands look shaky when he drinks his water.
Our country is losing energy- Trump against the second law of thermodynamics!
She keeps talking over his objections. He's clearly getting pissed.
I do love Clinton talking over Trump. She's clearly practiced for that.
Somebody has already created a Twitter account called TrumpSniff.
I wonder how they decide how to balance the volumes on the mikes. How much do you live-adjust for one person being physically louder?
She's looking at the people/the public. He can't stop staring at her.
He's actually going to throw a chair by the end of this.
Trump moves on to focusing on regulations. Also taxes.
Persono a Persono. Incredible political theater.
I thought he was doing okay(-ish) when I first tuned in, but now I think he's losing it a bit.
I think she's doing well. Staying firm and not getting ruffled. How much of a sociopath he is is really clear. It was still clear but muted in the Republican primary debates since all the other candidates were sociopaths too.
I'm embarrassed for Hillary that she has to debate him.
Now he's urging everybody to go to Hillary's website. That seems like a questionable strategy.
What the fuck is going on in this country.
When he said "look at mine too," who really thinks he was talking about his website?
151- I thought that but it was "big league".
Not even a third of the way in and he's sounding nuts, and not particularly in control.
Cutting the carried interest deduction is a great thing for the middle class?
He's seriously off the rails already- he can't even answer Holt's next question without starting to yell.
fighting isis her entire adult life except when she founded it.
Okay, her first few attempts at zingers were not great, but her calm, "Oh, I do. I wrote a book. You can pick it up tomorrow at an airport or bookstore near you." was golden.
So...does Trump just get to lie the whole debate long?
Trump really is getting unhinged.
We're all going to agree that she knocked it out of the park and that he acted like a donkey on steroids, and then tomorrow the newspapers are going to write about some other debate entirely that none of us witnessed, where she sighed and acted huffy and he connected with women and minorities.
I like how she's in red and he has a blue tie.
Well, if he wins, no one can say America wasn't warned. Honestly, Hitler never got a 50%+ majority. If Trump wins maybe the Germans or the Chinese can take over, we're done as a serious country.
she looks like someone who prepped for this this just by having people yell at her for weeks im sort of starting to breathe a bit
Trump keeps interrupting her. The optics are terrible.*
*Well, they should be. But what do I know about 45% of this country.
So...does Trump just get to lie the whole debate long?
I think the description in 65 is fairly spot on -- he is mostly staying away from specific facts, but he's returning to his catchphrases over and over again.
Come back Yggles, all is forgiven " Fact check: Hillary Clinton has not been fighting ISIS her entire adult life"
168 before seeing 165, which is correct.
168: she's truly doing very well. My stomach still hurts.
He sounds like he's about to start pitching gold.
I'm not clear if he wants the fed to raise interest rates or not raise interest rates.
$614 million is the kind of thinking our country needs?
33 and 165 are so correct. I can't watch this.
"I know lots of wealthy people who never get audited. I get audited almost every year."
He's not even coherent. Feds!! Bad! Bad! Bad! Politicians! Bad! Bad! Trade deficit! Bad! Mexicans! Bad! Bad!
I can believe Trump gets audited by the IRS a lot, more so than other rich people.
179 he's not complaining tho
Oh shit- he just bragged about not paying any federal tax?
Damn! Clinton is good on the tax things. I hope it has legs.
I love her baiting him. That's making me feel better.
185
Yeah. I hope he gets crucified for this and admitting the housing collapse was good business.
This may just be the dumpster fire I was hoping for.
Hillary looks great and is substantive as always. Trump is far better than I expected. Vote Vote Vote!
??? Now he's going on this confusing explanation about why he's richer than he actually is. Clinton is playing him like a fiddle.
There are actually some pretty nice third world airports. There are a few real shitholes, sure, but a lot of them are decent.
Ok to be fair LAX is a crap airport you fly into Burbank duh.
Dissing LaGuardia is going to make New Yorkers love him more, I'm sure.
"And maybe it's because you haven't paid any federal income tax"
BURN
Wow. He's just admitted to stiffing contractors.
And claiming he'd do it to other countries as well.
She's attacking him a lot more than I thought she would. I thought she'd try to just be presidential and stay above the fray and hope he had enough rope to hang himself. I think she's doing well.
"We just opened up on Pennsylvania Ave, so if I don't get there one way, I'm gonna get there another." That's a weird line.
He fucking ruined the Old Post Office and he's bragging about it.
I too have had trouble with contractors. But don't vote for me for President.
I think Kevin Drum has died of a heart attack watching this, he hasn't updated his live blog in 15 minutes.
Prediction: "Lots of great African Americans love me, they just think I'm great."
Oh good. Race relations. This ought to not be inflammatory.
Trump is far better than I expected. Vote Vote Vote!
I feel some of this. I think he's crazy, of course, but I think that he clearly has prepared for this and has some sense of the guardrails that he has to stay within. He's shouting like crazy, but he's also staying in a fairly narrow lane (which is essentially blaming everything on politicians).
As far as press spin- she loses because he's wearing a US flag lapel pin and she doesn't even have lapels!
Idk I get that but the contractor-stiffing stuff was a hell of a thing to say.
213
I knew there was a reason women shouldn't be president.
It's a MANDARIN collar. And it's RED. I think she's a commie!
I have investments! Did I mention I'm rich?
It's almost like he's not trying to court minorities.
Shorter Trump: DO YOU HEAR MY RACIST DOGWHISTLE?
He's making it so obvious which facts he spent the time to memorize and he wants credit for doing his homework. "4000 deaths! Janet Yellen!"
Wait, now who is debating who?
Idk I get that but the contractor-stiffing stuff was a hell of a thing to say.
I hope so, but I suspect that doesn't change anybody's mind. People who like him will rationalize it in some way (and, heck, I'm willing to rationalize bad behavior for people I like). Maybe I'm wrong.
Heebie one of the kids took over your keyboard.
We put our kids to bed at 4 pm.
To paraphrase Adlai Stevenson America needs a majority.
I'm not sure what Trump's strategy is. Mentioning Hillary's use of the term super predator 20 years ago is not going to win him black or white voters.
Aaargh, the terrorist watch list. First piece of grade-A bullshit from Clinton tonight.
"I've been all over the place. You decided to stay home, and that's okay."
what the fucking everlove is he talking about.
237 I was about to say the semi-subtle OH REALLY double blink is an art.
"I got him to give the birth certificate"
Sometimes you need a MAN do get things done.
I think his African-American support just dropped to negative numbers.
She is making me a little better.
People will say it's not true... well it's true, so there!
Heebie, one of your kids took over Donald's mind.
FEEL. She's making me FEEL a little better.
Heebie, one of your kids took over Donald's mind.
That means the biting comes next.
She's hitting him hard on his racist record going back to the 70s.
I bet he's bitten someone behind closed doors. And not just sexually.
Who does he think he's fooling claiming she's racist and he's not?
"Isn't that amazing that I settled that lawsuit with NO admission of guilt? So amazing."
Confidential to Donald: No one is going to believe that Hillary is more racist than you.
Housing Discrimination. Everyone's doing it!!
I hate that she brought up the no-fly list. I hate her position on it.
I'm thrilled that when he condescendingly said she "decided to stay home," she used that line about how she prepared for the debate and prepared to be President.
He's not racist. He runs a club in Palm Beach that's open to everyone. Very successful. No admission of guilt.
I've been given great credit for what I did and I'm very proud of it. And thats the way I feel. That's the way. I. feel.
No admission of guilt. So amazing.
His club in Palm beach admits black people is this his point or????
Anyone else wondering if cocaine was an integral part of Trump's debate prep?
I think there's valium in his water- he gets crazy, takes a sip, calms down for a few minutes, then goes nuts until the next drink.
He was just endorsed by ISIS!! Oh, ICE.
I think there's speed in his system.
Now he's denying it was Russia that did those hacks. Maybe it was some fat guy!
We built the internet and ISIS is using it!!!
ISIS beating us at the internet. I'm switching my shopping to amazon.isis.
"Many generals, admirals, have endorsed me." = My admirals are bigger, greater, than your admirals.
Trump: Maybe it wasn't the Russians hacking into the DNC, maybe it was a fat guy
His club in Palm beach admits black people is this his point or????
But it's the wealthiest community in the world! Somehow he thinks that strengthens his argument!
Third beer already. Christ. They shouldn't have these on Monday nights.
Dammit I need to type faster. Pwned almost verbatim
267: I'm on my third beer already and it's quarter past 10 in the morning where I am
267: I'm on my third beer already and it's quarter past 10 in the morning where I am
Trumps comments about cyberwarfare is a great example of how he can sound like he's taking a position without making any empirical statements which could be fact checked.
Surely "the cyber" is the anti-Trump meme to come out of this? It's almost a copy of "the google"
I hope someone asks "how do you take the oil"?
"The cyber" is really pretty great. I didn't hear it until E. pointed it out.
take the oil trade it for the mexican cookies
The Putin thing is very very scary and she should hit it even harder....Best debate of my voting lifetime because it highlights the differences between the candidates. Huge stakes here.
271: That's the only legitimate excuse for double posting. I hope you're having fun there in...uh..China? Perth?
I find the use of "cyber" as noun, a shorthand for "cybersecurity" weird but I'll get used to it. But saying the "security aspect of cyber" boggles my mind.
She just put in a plug for NATO. Also Muslims.
279
Yeah, it's really fucking scary. Also Trump's warmongering with China. We realllly reallly don't want to start shit with them.
Clinton ruined the Middle East!
Now he's actually trying to defend his anti-NATO stance!
284
Russia hates it, so Trump hates it.
He was endorsed by the ICE union (immigration police, basically). The same union that sued Obama over the DACA program for young immigrant Dreamers.
More Trump supporter epistemology: he might have said global warming was a hoax but he never said climate change was.
280 & 282: couldn't agree more, since I have no desire to be here if things kick off with the meiguorens.
I'm not even playing a drinking game. I'm just drinking because it seems appropriate.
Would you go back in time and kill baby ISIS? Huh?
OMG he's repeating the Obama and Clinton created ISIS line.
"You were SOC when [ISIS] was a little infant"
And he's doubling down on claiming he was against the Iraq War!
If only Hannity had some medium for getting his word out.
Much better temperament. His strongest asset.
Yes, he has a much better temperament.
I don't know, some people probably use "cyber" as a noun. That happens with jargon all the time. I WILL NEVER GET USED TO PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT "THE FIELD OF CHIROPRACTIC". THAT WORD CANNOT BE A NOUN.
"I have a winning temperament. I know how to win"
"Why is your judgement better?"
"Because it is, I think there's no question."
So, my reading is Clinton is mopping the floor with him.
I just looked at DeLong's twitter feed and, as I expected, he's re-tweeted a number of good lines. My favorites:
Sady Doyle: I see Hillary has come dressed in the blood of men who have underestimated her.
Chloe Angyal: Hey straight white guys, if you're amazed that Clinton is keeping her cool right now, remember that women practice it all day, every day.
Justin Wolfers: My 10-year old son will defeat ISIS. I was endorsed by ICE. The internet is a series of tubes. QWERTY is an Arab word meaning death to all.
"Wooh!" *deep breath* "Ok!" is kind of how I feel.
"I have a winning temperament. I know how to win"
That was hilarious.
She didn't say "short little fingers." She wanted to.
280 & 282: couldn't agree more, since I have no desire to be here if things kick off with the meiguorens.
You got that right: we're the most beautiful nation, we're yuuuuuge, not like some loser "middle" nation. Sad!
I'm glad she's hitting him on nuclear weapons. My god he is so psychotic.
Howard Dean twitter comment on the bottom of the screen just went there re the sniffing
"Nukes" seems like a dogwhistle for old people. Remember, there are MUCH scarier things than the brown kid down the street!
NY Times just called the expression described in 303 "giggling" the earth should swallow them.
310: And than global warming, per Trump.
Not enough gets said about how he says "Mooslims." That's not a NYC thing, is it?
He's spouting right wing memes at this point and expecting people to just understand.
311
WTF??? The NYTimes staff can be first against the wall.
309 Yeah he can't stop sniffing.
NY Times just called the expression described in 303 "giggling" the earth should swallow them.
That's awful (and inexplicable, who would pick that as the word to use there?).
315: That bugged me too, but Clinton sounded more like that than I'm used to. My ability to spell this out in IPA or something is terrible, but that's not how I'm used to hearing and saying it.
316: I need no disrespect against your great city! I desire merely to be able to distinguish between the laughable bits of his idiolect and your fair dialect, ma'am. GOOD DAY.
Clinton: "words matter, and they really matter when you are president."
321: I'll try to pay more attention to it. I wonder how much of it is due to fluid orthography until relatively recently with Muslim/Moslem/etc.
I'll admit, I snickered when she sad "Bagdaddy."
320 Alan Rappeport apparently
Muzz-lims is how I usually hear it. Moose-lims is CLOSER to the right pronunciation, right? It should be an S instead of a Z at least.
We need to make all these other countries pay us protection money!
God that was an awesome response.
In Trump's world, just how much power does a senator and SOC have?
327: That's how I say and I think is the standard in English; it's weird to have a voiceless sibilant next to a sonorant, right? If "muss-lim" is the target pronunciation it's going to become "Muzz-lim" pretty quickly.
I showed self control once. Give me a cookie.
omg is he not going to answer???
Well it's Tuesday morning here but I just woke up to the debate on NPR, how's she doing?
I can't believe how long that lasted.
337: I think she's been absolutely as badass as I hoped, but who knows what that asshole, Undecided Voter, thinks.
Ok, there's no way those two were even on the same plane, right?
I think Clinton did...perfect. I don't know if that's enough.
I don't know, the one line that got cheers- "She has experience, but it's bad experience"- is going to be seized by anyone who wants to claim he won.
341: I mean..I hope? But there's a certain kind of not-rich, idiot person who thinks that a rich, smart person thinks bringing up not paying income tax is an amazing comeback and a sign of, in the Donald's words, "being smart".
Already the media even on MSNBC are beyond morons. It's literally stunning and frankly an abandonment of any kind of still-existing democracy.
Surprising that Trump didn't mention Benghazi.
Brooks just said that Trump won the first half hour, which is the half hour when I thought he might actually start biting.
Chris Matthews seems like the only sane man in the room.
348: Brooks then went on to say Trump did terribly for the rest of it, though.
342 is right. HRC got me to cheer for her and I'm still angry about some of her policy positions.
Some commenters on ABC said that Trump was strong in the first half of the debate before he went unhinged. But I think he started out bad and just kept getting worse.
353 me. Somebody else on ABC said he only won the first 15 minutes. That's crazy. At no point was he winning this thing.
I agree with 353. If his early debate perform is considered even, or with him up, that's worrisome.
Oh God, I forgot the debate is then followed by a series of other debates between evenly matched "surrogates" claiming their person won.
342 yeah looking forward to the commentary telling me that no, I didn't just see her mop the floor with him.
We did not name either of our children "Major" (watching CBS)
Mark Shields on PBS just said he doesn't know what the capital of Sweden is.
I need to stop watching Brooks or I'm going to break my computer.
360: It was still part of Denmark when he was in school.
It was great watching with a like-minded crowd at TNP. Barely agonizing at all.
Hopefully bullshit stories implying Trump did not crater get no traction. Wasn't one of the Obama debates like that, media went one way and public went another?
I suppose hammering on trade is the right strategy for Trump, and he did that, but I think most influenceable people will have seen flailing.
I cannot believe the idiocy of these NBC people continually referring to the "all-important undecided voters." Do they have NO idea that this election is about turnout, not undecideds?
Trump was very sharp and well prepared, he attacked Clinton effectively, and sometimes responded well to attacks, but he had to play defense a lot.
No pundits will talk about this but he didnt didnt deflect from class war attacks well at all.
Clinton was better at attacking than responding to attacks. Why didnt she deny the Patti Solis thing for example?
Trump was very sharp and well prepared, he attacked Clinton effectively, and sometimes responded well to attacks, but he had to play defense a lot.
No pundits will talk about this but he didnt didnt deflect from class war attacks well at all.
Clinton was better at attacking than responding to attacks. Why didnt she deny the Patti Solis thing for example?
Once again, a huge problem with Trump is that he crams so may lies into 90 minutes that they get lost in the shuffle. Just looking back through this thread I was reminded of a couple I'd already forgotten.
364: I think this is a professional deformation thing.
Hillary begins to remind me of my mother. #Scary #Fun #ImWithHer
Do they have NO idea that this election is about turnout, not undecideds?
Turnout, that means voters who are undecided between voting and not voting, right?
It is the pettiest takeaway but still twitching about "giggled." Some men on the train who didn't do anything wrong are gonna get *glared* at tomorrow.
371: It's okay, we probably deserve it.
I very rarely watch network TV--the debates have bled into local news. What a parade of deplorables. I don't understand how people can watch television.
In one of my dissertation chapters, I described a woman (accurately) as giggling. My advisor highlighted it and wrote, "this sounds condescending" next to it. When I saw that I immediately felt ashamed that I had used that word to describe the laugh of another adult woman. What the woman I was talking about did was A MILLION MILES from Hillary Clinton's demeanor during the debate.
WTH is wrong with the reporter?
Next time I'm going to tune in more than 60 seconds in advance so I have time to find a PBS stream or something more noncommittal than NBC. Ugh ugh ugh.
Why didnt she deny the Patti Solis thing for example?
Because she knew better than to be baiting into talking about stupid shit?
Trump seemed to think he had to respond to every attack, which is how he got to "I settled that lawsuit with no admission of guilt!"
376: Yuup.
I don't understand when Hillary "giggled." She laughed and she chuckled. She might have eye-rolled but I think she had pretty good discipline there, much better than I did, anyway.
If I had to criticize Clinton, I found her invocation of her father lacking, an attempt to call up a far-removed working-class legacy. If that works, great, but it ringed false to me.
373 Giggling is a thing that happens and it's mostly ok to call it that when it does! It just... did not happen here. Giggle on this ALAN.
I thought she set up "contrasting Dads" as a decent lead in to the story that Trump started out with a $14 million loan. That was an early landed punch for her.
There's a lot more mileage to be gotten from activating the Dem-leaners than winning over true undecideds, and I think she went well for that angle too - stakes and values.
There's a lot more mileage to be gotten from activating the Dem-leaners than winning over true undecideds, and I think she went well for that angle too - stakes and values.
Yeah, I think this debate definitely fired up HRC's supporters if nothing else. And that's something she really needs.
I really do think he was well prepared, even though some people on twitter seems to disagree. His problem was more the many holes he had dug for himself and not being willing to concede an inch.
He definitely was well prepared at least by his standards, which is to say that he had a few talking points that he tried to steer everything towards (like normal politicians do). He just wasn't able to keep that up for long once she started baiting him.
I think he put together a long list of bad things to associate with Hillary, but he didn't seem to have a plan for delivering them. So he got through it by improvising and ended up sounding incoherent.
once she started baiting him.
Now that I wish I'd seen. Any memorable moments?
388
She hypothesized that one reason he hadn't released his tax returns was because he wasn't as rich as he claimed he was.
Awesome. I saw that he also bragged about not paying income taxes and said he didn't admit guilt in settling with the contractors he stiffed. Amazing.
I wouldnt be surprised if the polls will say he won it. A lot of people only watch the first half hour, right? But then tje media spin is more important, and none of it matters much anyway, and Sam Wang knows best. I dont know if hrc inspired her base much tonight though. Probably Trump inspired her base more.
said he didn't admit guilt in settling with the contractors he stiffed.
No, he said he didn't admit guilt in setting a lawsuit brought about by the government on account of his policy of not renting to black people.
Otoh, his worst moments made into a youtube clip will be 1000 times worse than hers.
I dont know if hrc inspired her base much tonight though. Probably Trump inspired her base more.
I dunno, judging by my FB feed she seems to have inspired at least that segment of her base a lot.
392: And he emphasized that point more than once. On the contractors he basically just admitted to stiffing them and shrugged it off.
CNN debate poll: 62% think Clinton won. 27% think Trump.
Minivet, I know you posted above about canvassing. How is it organized on the ground? Is it structured in a way that someone who's never canvassed or done anything door-to-door could do more good than harm?
The crazy 27%. That's most encouraging.
I don't think he seemed well prepared at all. He certainly wasn't prepared to make his key points and stick the landing in 2 minute increments. I'd love to see the tally on how much time he stole in overages. Most of his "20 second rebuttals" went on for 2 minutes or more.
The results in 397 are just from one poll, of course, and a small sample at that. Still, yeah, encouraging.
Did the debate rules officially allow for interjections to rebut personal accusations or was he just being an asshole?
398: I think so personally, but I would. It was structured around finding activatable Democrats and registering them, rather than going on a mission of persuasion. I did door-to-door; the few Spanish speakers went off separately, I believe for tabling in Latino community spots.
402: It seemed to be designed to accommodate back-and-forth - one question to each candidate, timed response, then rebuttals leading into open debate for what was intended to be 15 minutes per section, often running over. Holt interjected for some fact-checking and to steer things back on course, but there was not so much minute-by-minute scheduling as I'm used to. Kind of liked it, actually, as a format; time to delve and reveal Trump's shallowness.
Is "Lester Holt" the closest a real presidential debate will ever get to setting up a "Les Whining" joke?
I felt like she was happy to go on and on because as long as his mouth was open he was demonstrating to the world how utterly unqualified he is for the Presidency.
felt like she was happy to have him go on and on
Colbert's monologue was brutal about Trump's performance.
He even made a cocaine joke about the sniffing.
Looks like I dont have my finger on the pulse of america.
403: Hmm. I might actually sign up for this.
So debates dont matter etc, but if Trump will feel he did badly after the debates it could trigger another meltdown phase right before the election.
He did apparently skip the after-party he was going to attend, so there's that.
On the format aspect, I was ok with the looseness for the most part, but as a viewer/listener, it really was more Trump than I could take, and it felt like at some point the mic needed to be cut. I don't think it hurt HRC because it was (the one time) just him going land lab out Hannity, but Christ. What if he were being effective, would he really be permitted 55% of the time?
More generally, I thought she missed a few fat targets (some of which is her style--she's just not one to say in five words what she could say in fifteen--some of which is her politics (when he said best growth since Reagan, I desperately wanted to hear, "well, my husband already delivered better growth than Reagan, and Presidnet Obama has presided over more private sector job growth than Reagan did"), and some of which is inevitable), but I thought the overall strategy was great--goad him without getting bogged down in lines of attack. I think the only lengthy attack was the tax thing, which I think is a good target (because he's vulnerable, because it's probably true, because the press will continue to bug him on it). Otherwise it was make a solid point, goad Donald, and then look like the patient adult while he reacted to the goad.
I thought the loose format was useful in the sense of giving Trump enough rope to hang himself, but yeah, it wasn't exactly pleasant to watch.
413: That's my take. He must be good and riled now. In the past I'd have expected some grade A crazy incoming, but Bannon et al seem to have Trump on something of a leash. We'll see.
I was only able to catch a recast of the early part where Trump successfully bullrushed Clinton, missing his meltdown. This is almost certainly the only time I'll ever say this, but: I wish this airport had CNN.
I liked Hillary's focus on turnout. She had a couple really strong "VOTE!" moments.
There was also good plain old tactics. Trump spent so long lying about opposing the Iraq War it never once came up that Clinton voted for it.
Is it me, or do NYT and WaPo front pages look very mealy-mouthed on who won? Despite pretty broad consensus on the subject, even from JPod and Sto/rmfr/ont.
Anyway, Trump's tactic for the morning is apparently to complain about his microphone and talk about how fat the former Miss Universe was.
BTW, did Gennifer Flowers show up, and if so, to what effect?
No, that was all bluster from Trump, his staff didn't let it happen. Shocking, I know.
Have the fact-checkers investigated just how much weight Ms. Machado gained?
Surely Trump has insulted the weight of hundreds, maybe thousands of women in his life. Politically, is it worse to insult the weight of Miss Universe than a random woman, because of the sheer preposterosity of such a suggestion? Or is it not as bad, since many women may not identify or sympathize with the struggles of Miss Universe?
I didn't witness it, but all the commentary I've read thinks of it as a knight's move: blindsides him, vivid terminology (Miss Piggy), evokes the weird skeeviness of a man so into beauty pageants, Hispanic angle. And he blows up, and is still talking about it this morning.
Yeah. Not that I can judge anything about this ridiculous campaign, but it seems to me that the worst aspect, politically, is having it be the thing he first decided to hit back on today (other than the stupid microphone excuse). I don't see how pushing "She deserves to be fat shamed" as your main debate message is anything but a horrible misstep.
It also makes him look like a shitty, skeevy employer. And it's a repeat of the whole Khizr Khan thing - he doesn't seem to get that it's a terrible look for a presidential candidate to get into a fight with a private citizen.
(But we'll be back to Generic R vs. Generic D in 2 weeks.)
I liked Hillary's focus on turnout.
Yeah, all the prep really showed there. You can see Trump doesn't dance. Wait, is this some nightmarish Strictly Come Presidential mashup?
It was super weird how he brought up Rosie O'Donnell as part of the Ms. Universe bit. Your continuing feud with a B-list celebrity who was in a movie I liked 20 years ago? Yes, very Presidential, Donald.
430: That would be an improvement over the latest polls.
Some of the negative comments that Hillary referenced earlier in that bit were Trump insulting O'Donnell. That's why he brought her up. (Still weird and non-presidential, but not totally out of nowhere.)
She kept hitting him on things any normal person would see merit an apology but he is incapable of apologizing for even the smallest thing and Hillary knows it. Rosie deserved it, I'm smart for not paying taxes, everyone (!) got sued for racial discrimination and we never admitted guilt, my contractors did crappy work so of course I stiffed them, that chick really did get fat so she deserved it too.
Real Americans never apologize for anything.
I took a cab to work so I didn't get to glare at anyone on the train but I did tell two male coworkers who tried to suggest Clinton came off as smug that they were "blinkered and irresponsible," so it's a pretty chilly atmosphere in the office right now. That's what I was going for so it's fine.
The bit about how he deserves praise because he opened a club in palm beach that allowed black people in was the weirdest. In part because it was one of the few times trump actually was cogent.
There's a time-warp quality about him; he expresses what would have been unremarkable private opinions fifty years ago. But it isn't fifty years ago and he's on national television.
He might have actually been a bit forward-minded in that respect - by the low standards of 1990 Palm Beach high society - and even then, only by accident, as part of lashing out against those being snobbish against him in particular.
We are pleased to announced that Trump in no way hates negroes blacks, Jews, or ladies. Well, except for the fat ones, but who doesn't hate a fat chick?
Well, hell has frozen over, because I mostly agree with this article.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/440444/mondays-debate-microcosm-2016
Nope, that article is still moronic. What kind of "knockout blow" can you deliver in a Presidential debate? If there was one, exposing someone as a liar, an incompetent, weakling who can't stand up for 45 minutes, and a moral monster would be it. "If only she would perform this impossible trick she would be succeeding. Oh wait she did but I mean another impossible trick. Why can't she just do that one? Well, if she just showed leadership then I would have an affirmative reason to vote for her. No this has nothing to do with her being a woman or me being a jackass."
I was listening to NPR this morning, talking to voters in Georgia. They had four guests, one of whom was a no-show. I thought they were kind of a microcosm. Black woman for Clinton; white woman for Clinton; man for Trump; other man (prob Trump) doesn't show. Yep. That's just what it will look like at the polls.
I heard that, too. The white woman was so reassuring. She had been reluctant Clinton pre-debate, and the debate lowered her opinion of Trump and raised her opinion of Clinton, although she was generally timid about stating her opinions. I assume there will be some regression to the mean, but I was pleased to have that bounce anyway.
Also, as an act of good faith: when I placed my Clinton bet last November, I got a bonus $100 for signing up, to bet with. Yesterday, pre-debate, I put that extra $100 on Clinton, too. In other words, my calculation was that the pay-off won't ever be higher than yesterday afternoon.
I realized yesterday that one of the big arguments on the left right now is whether Trump's coalition mainly consists of losers or of haters.
Clearly its a hater/loser alliance. That's what makes it a coalition.
talking to voters in Georgia
Those segments have made me want to ram pencils in my ears because of the stupid-ass commentary from the Trump voters. Per 449, most days I think his coalition consists mainly of paste-eaters.
I do like this piece about the amount of groundwork the Clinton campaign did to set up for telling Alicia Machado's story and the ad is really well done.
I realized yesterday that one of the big arguments on the left right now is whether Trump's coalition mainly consists of losers or of haters.
Half and half, from what I've heard.
Loser-hater-morons, or shortened as loohorons, pronounced loo-whore-ons.
I dunno why I felt the need to share that one.
White privilege means a lifetime of not having to edit yourself.
Oh hey Tigre, like a lot of people I've been reading The Hobbit as a bedtime story with Bilbo gender-swapped and my children had a million questions about whether doing so was even legal and stuff about all sorts of intricacies in derivative works. I blame you.
There's a job hazard law school won't warn you about.
Let your kids know I can sue you on their behalf. I'll discount my rate.
like a lot of people I've been reading the hobbit with Bilbo as gender swapped
Come, fiery rain.
454: No, that's people from Lahore, Pakistan. Lahorons.
463 I see you.
But I'm also female now and the place on my breast where my armor is missing is covered by a tasteful twin set.
Yeah, you stick it to zhe, Bard!
There's a special place in hell for women who want their whole village burned rather than help another woman.
You just go on and lean in a little more there, Smaug.
I am sort of hoping that not only Bilbo but the entire cast of The Hobbit has been gender swapped, including all the dwarves and Gandalf, with all references to beards left in place.
And why wouldn't they be?
Gandolf the Letting Himself Go Grey.
Do you need to gender-swap the dwarfs?
Then when they get to the part where Thorinne loses her mind over a big diamond, traditional gender behavior can be reinforced, yay!
Ponies eaten 15 (bad)
Gold pillaged 1500 gp (v.g.!)
Minutes spent in wordplay with inexplicably invisible burglar 30 (v. bad)
http://www.unfogged.com/archives/comments_11606.html#1356996
I did tell two male coworkers who tried to suggest Clinton came off as smug that they were "blinkered and irresponsible," so it's a pretty chilly atmosphere in the office right now. That's what I was going for so it's fine.
Nicely done.