Just to get in first, the key factor in the Juanita Broaddrick story seems to be that it's not an accusation that Hillary Clinton raped anyone. I mean, if Trump's response to "You said on camera that you had a practice of sexually assaulting women. Do you have anything to say about that?" is "Well, her husband is a rapist!", then that seems to me like not much of a response.
Double jeopardy rules prevent Bill Clinton from being elected again.
Yeah, I think the Vox article makes that point clearly and well. But it does make "believe victims" kinda dicey for Clinton supporters, and if the story about Hillary meaningfully and pointedly thanking Broaddrick is true (it's the most credulity-straining part of Broaddrick's accusation), then, ick.
Maybe I'm being overly optimistic but Hillary and her people have been playing Trump so well during this campaign that I think they've gamed out and practiced for almost every conceivable situation.
Of course it's a nonsense deflection, but the talking points are: DJT was just bullshitting, engaging in "locker room" talk, whereas Clinton actively worked to discredit the stories of women who came forward against her husband. I expect we'll hear about this meme was well:
http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-freed-child-rapist-laughed-about-it/
The thing is, rape used to be acceptable-ish, and it's easily possible that Bill really did rape her. It had a place in society sort of like smoking, and I think a lot of borderline rapists probably stopped in the 80s and 90s, along with smoking, as being inconsistent with their self-perception as a nice person.
if the story about Hillary meaningfully and pointedly thanking Broaddrick is true (it's the most credulity-straining part of Broaddrick's accusation), then, ick.
That seems really far from anything to pin on HRC. Say the rape accusation is true (which seems plausible to me. I dismissed it in 1999 when it came out, because at that time it was twenty years old, there had been so many bullshit stories about Clinton, and she'd signed an affidavit swearing it wasn't true. But in retrospect, even with that it seems fairly plausible.) But the bit about HRC comes down to JB saying that the wife of the man who just raped her said some perfectly appropriate, normal things to her at a political event. The threat was all in JB's interpretation of HRC's demeanor. And at that point, who can tell either if JB was reading HRC's face right (in a seriously stressful, weird situation), or even if HRC was genuinely being weird at her, what it was that HRC knew or believed about the situation.
Anyone holding that part of the story against HRC seems super credulous to me.
6: This may be the most horrifyingly phrased thing I've ever read and thought "Yeah, roughly accurate."
Anyone holding that part of the story against HRC seems super credulous to me.
Can I introduce to the people who vote in our country?
Anyways, on the political impact of this stuff being aired tonight, I don't see how it moves the needle much in either direction. Maybe it just increases the number of undecided, affect-driven swing voters who decide to simply sit out the election because they think whole thing is a sewer and want nothing to do with it.
10 is the strategy. 10 has always been the strategy. It's the way Republicans win, especially in presidential election years when turnout is higher. It won't get them the Presidency, but it might save them Congress.
The thing is, rape used to be acceptable-ish, and it's easily possible that Bill really did rape her.
Hang about! Not in my lifetime it hasn't. The boundaries between rape and seduction have moved, sure, but if what Clinton did in 197x seemed to the victim like rape in 197x, then Clinton should be wearing a fetching orange suit next time he addresses his Wall Street pals.
Just to get in first, the key factor in the Juanita Broaddrick story seems to be that it's not an accusation that Hillary Clinton raped anyone.
I think that's right, and important to lead with, I also bet dollars to donuts that will not be Clinton's response.
Which makes me think: one of the things that Clinton had clearly practiced ahead of the first debate was giving short responses to difficult questions (e-mail; and presumably foundation stories). I wonder, if the allegations against Bill come up in this debate, how long will her response be?
I don't think the sins of the husband should be paid off by the wife or anything but I do think "well I didn't rape anyone, just my husband" is … it's not the strongest sauce that ever was served.
Though I guess in this particular context it's not the weakest, either.
It's not a goddamned cooking show, nosflow!
12: you think Brock Turner would have generated any outrage in the 70s?
He would if the case had come to trial. It is, however, unlikely that it would have done. Also, there would have been symmetrical outrage at his victim.
18: Outrage at his short sentence? I seriously doubt that.
Norms around, "Give her a few drinks to lower her defenses," have certainly changed (take for example the Anthony Michael Hall plot from Sixteen Candles, which is clearly treated as unproblematic in the context of the film) but I'm not sure the norms around Bill Clinton's alleged behavior towards JB have changed that much (he rape-raped her, in so many words). Probably in the 70s there'd be more insinuations about why she went to his hotel room (or did she let him come to hers?). (Wasn't that a thing in the Kobe Bryant trial too, circa not too long ago?)
Wasn't there that story from Clinton's deceased friend's papers that Bill told her some deflecting, blaming stuff about Lewinsky? I wonder if it's that Bill led her to believe at the time it was something consensual but embarrassing, and she proceeded on that basis.
"Why do all these womensexuals keep getting themselves raped around me?"
Did Trump say he was going to call Bill a rapist, or is it just the obvious play?
He's been retweeting Juanita Broaddrick, which seems to be telegraphing the strategy.
And his aides have been saying he's going to do it.
Apparently there are Apprentice tapes of Trump n-wording it up, but Mark Burnett, bigshot producer, is a Trump fan and has promised to sue any leakers. Will be very interesting to see if he can really keep a lid on those. I think I'd just leak them, let him sue me, then do a gofundme, which would probably cover any damages five times over.
Meanwhile it's bizarre how little press there's been throughout this whole campaign about the fact that Donald Trump is literally right now a defendant in a lawsuit for allegedly raping a young teenager. And it's not the first time he's been accused of rape in court!
How baller would it be if, at the debate, Clinton said Bill had finally admitted to her that the story was true, that she had maybe been too quick to believe him (because love, marriage, shared commitment, etc.) and too ready to let it rest because it had stopped coming up, but that he would be apologizing, restituting, and withdrawing from public life. And then she looked to Trump.
The linked article kind of buries this:
"the hotel has no records to confirm that she stayed there"
Seems important whether that's because the hotel has no, or incomplete, records from back then, or if it has records and her name isn't on them.
Whatever happened to Trump's philosophy of not telling the other side what you are going to do? I guess that only works when you don't really have a plan to deal with ISIS.
On the other hand, this story has been picked over so much I guess that's not in dispute?
Yeah, if that were dispositive of anything, someone would have picked it up by now.
28: I thought I read elsewhere that the hotel was long closed.
It really is a maddening story, plausibility-wise. It's plausible enough that it's the sort of thing I'd generally believe. But the only corroborating evidence is friends who say she told them about it at the time -- no actual evidence at all. And of course it broke at a time when people were making up stories about the Clintons right and left: my knee-jerk reaction to any Clinton story is that it didn't happen unless there's proof.
I still, net, believe Clinton probably raped Broaddrick. But not with any great degree of certainty.
Further to 28: What you italicize is not the article saying that, but the article quoting the NBC broadcast on the subject from 1999. Poking around a bit, it appears the hotel filed for Chapter 11 in 1992 and was reopened as a DoubleTree in 1996, so far from dispositive, in fact rather slanting on NBC's part.
33: Yeah, it's a case where two generally reliable heuristics conflict with each other and there's no other information available to resolve the conflict. It's especially maddening because the unknowable truth has major implications for how to view an important public figure.
35: Right, but Vox is quoting it like it's still relevant, which it sounds like it isn't.
37: Yes, that is kind of slanting too.
Well, it's relevant only insofar as saying that the narrative is uncheckable. It's uncheckable for unsuspicious reasons, but 'stayed in a hotel' would ordinarily be something that could be confirmed, and it isn't.
It really is weird that there appears to be literally nothing about Broaddrick's story that can be independently verified, but for reasons that don't necessarily cast doubt on her own credibility.
I mean, I guess it's not that weird, and probably not even uncommon with this kind of accusation. It does make it uniquely frustrating as Clinton accusations go, though.
Anyway, ogged's other link is interesting too. Who knew Germans could be so supportive of a racist authoritarian?
Yeah, that sort of thing was why I waved it off as bullshit in 1999, being really primed to dismiss uncheckable stories about the Clintons at the time. Sometime between then and now, Clinton's misdeeds came up again, and I remembered the accusations of assault as all nonsense, and then looked at this one again and realized that I actually would believe it about pretty much anyone else, so I should believe it about Clinton.
In the late 90s I was willing to defend Clinton on the "properly elected presidents can't have matters of state derailed over non-germane 20 year old accusations." But he's not president anymore, so it does seem more likely than not he did it.
39: Sure, but you need to say it's uncheckable, which as far as I can tell Vox doesn't say outright.
Right. Vox said it wrong, in a way that seems slanted toward subtly saying that there's something fishy about the story. The right way to say it would have been something like "All records from the hotel were destroyed in the early 90s, making it impossible to use them for corroboration."
43 is where I'm at. I believe he raped her but have no idea what to do with that belief so I just take a nap.
42
Isn't that whole thing just because people of English, Irish and Italian ancestry are concentrated in the Northeast Corridor, and those of German ancestry are concentrated in the Midwest?
Funny thing is that there's a good shot Hillary doesn't know either.
48: Pretty much, yeah. Still, it's interesting to see how the patterns stick out.
As usual, that fact that we're talking about Broaddrick (something that happened 38 years ago involving neither of the presidential candidates) just means the distractions are working. Again.
51. Yes, this thread leads me think when it was all done it will be indisputable that Roger Stone will go down as the most effective political operative of his generation.
Yeah, if people on unfogged can't stay on topic, all hopes are lost.
We were staying on topic, which was apparently the problem.
I'd like to talk about Spiro Agnew. He was indicted in Maryland, while serving under Nixon. Can a sitting President or Vice President be kicked out other than by impeachment?
Nobody will ask Trump whether he expects to spend the next few years thinking more about civil suits or criminal cases.
Can a sitting President or Vice President be kicked out other than by impeachment?
No. Impeachment is the mechanism for kicking them out.
I'd like to talk about that squirrel. Can it swim? Does it have any book-writing relatives?
(Media does not seem to be all about Broaddrick yet.)
51, 52 - in fairness, Ogged may be the softest target for similar conservative trolling in the known universe. Also the idea of believing all rape accusations no matter when made so long as they aren't affirmatively disproven (with publically available evidence) does not seem like a particularly useful heuristic to me and never has. I've never been clear on what's wrong with taking "we don't know" seriously but no one ever does.
I'm still waiting for the whitey tape, it's true.
63: There's a need for a punchy formulation of "Accusations of sexual assault are intrinsically no less likely to be true than accusations of any other crime; sure, people lie about stuff sometimes regardless of what the stuff is, but just because it's rape doesn't make it any more likely to be bullshit than mugging."
The squirrel and the racism are both inferred from the stuff knocked out of the tree onto my neighbor's deck. I guess it could be a possum that sucks at being nocturnal or a raccoon.
He would if the case had come to trial.
In the 70s? No way. The victim would have been blamed because she was drunk, and we all know about that sort of girl, and she must have been "asking for it," and by the way, what was she wearing? And in the case alleged by JB: what was she wearing? and why did she invite a man to her hotel room? and how many boyfriends has she had? and so on.
heebie's "rape used to be acceptable-ish" is maybe overstating it, but then again, maybe not. Certainly, there was a certain type of rape that was never acceptable (the menacing stranger jumping out of the bushes and attacking a decent and respectable woman at the park, or something like that). But most incidents of sexual assault were not, and are not, like that (the victim often knows her assaulter, e.g.). And in the 70s, the onus was still very much on the victim to prove she was innocent of having brought it on herself.
65: I'd be far more likely to believe an accusation that Clinton raped Broaddrick than that he mugged her.
heebie's "rape used to be acceptable-ish" is maybe overstating it, but then again, maybe not.
I think what I was getting at is that there's a certain kind of giant intractable social problem - abusive prisons, climate change, poverty - in which most of society feels so overwhelmed that they just block it out and avoid the cognitive dissonance on anything but the grossest examples. So "rape" was in that category in the 70s - so pervasive and intractable that all but the grossest examples got dismissed because even generally thoughtful people knew that any realistic solution was fifty years of hard work away.
And as a corollary, actual borderline-rapists then feel like it's not so bad and are more likely to commit rape in the 70s climate than in the current climate, a category of which it's easy to believe Bill Clinton fell.
I've never been clear on what's wrong with taking "we don't know" seriously but no one ever does.
If we could take it seriously that would be great. In practice, isn't "we'll never really know" common shorthand for "let's bury the subject forever and keep the accused in high regard"?
71: agreed
Sometimes you see those study's x% of incoming freshmen admit to behavior that consists of rape. And it's a lot of people, we're not going to put all of those people in jail, so in practice there has to be selective enforcement.
What are the ratings for tonight's debate?
I'd imagine they'll be pretty high. Everybody's looking for a pratfall of some kind.
Definitely R. I doubt X.
They don't even still have X right?
Trump is live on Facebook with Paula Jones, Juanita Broaddrick and Kathleen Willey right now.
Still not 100% sure he brings it up at the townhall/debate, however.
https://www.facebook.com/DonaldTrump/videos/10157857037430725/
Not that I am watching.
He isn't actually that great at confrontation in person. Still could wind up a damp squib.
He isn't actually that great at confrontation in person.
In fact he's kind of terrible at it. Still, no way am I watching the debate.
I guess, but in a case like this you really don't know. So why would it change your prior views of Bill Clinton one way or another? "I don't know" means epistemic humility, not "eh I'll just assume he did."
He told the press to come into a room where they could see some debate prep and there was Trump as a table with 3 or 4 "accusers."
It's going to be 90s catchphrase bingo tonight, isn't it? I've got "bimbo eruptions" on my card.
Bannon and Bossie there (and surely arranged); a 90's fever dream come true for those guys.
Though, in a broader sense, what is neoliberalism but the most violative rape of them all? /CrookedTimber.
The 4th was Kathy(?) Shelton the rape victim who rapist HRC defended pro bono in the '70s.
So is this the debate thread or should we have a new one?
Depends on whether the debate remains in the gutter.
I don't think that's up for debate.
I'm not quite as nervous as I was for the first one. I'm a little nervous but not that bad.
IMO private citizens give less of the benefit of the doubt to people accused of rape (or can or should give less) because accusing someone of rape is usually such an ordeal for the accuser, and accusations are so often not taken seriously, that we assume that no one would do it if it wasn't true. Details matter of individual cases and I'm not commenting on the legal burden of proof, just what is normal for us random people to think.
I like Clinton's smoking jacket.
This is a nice, forgettable answer.
aaaaaaaaaaugh what if he does a good job?????
aaaaaaaugh he's being calm!!!!
I don't have the sound on but I am a big fan of brisk, disinterested note-taking while someone else is speaking as a power move so I'm happy so far. Is this the right way for me to feel?
I actually really hope he brings up Bill, I want to see what she has in the chamber.
Both moderators are letting him have it. I've never seen that before.
I hate to bring it up but his sniffing is getting distracting.
Sniff, sniff. So Trump is way coked-up, right?
I was hoping she'd say the girl was raped by Hillary..
"There's never been anybody in the history of politics in this nation" [who's been as abusive to women as Bill Clinton].
He's calm but he's rambling and getting super bogged down. I don't think he's doing a good job and I still think a tantrum will erupt.
Clinton's really betting that she can get him pissed off.
I also liked Clinton's jacket in the 20 seconds of the debate I managed to watch.
Trumps's working the "I know you are but what am I" defense.
I'm clearly a minute or two behind, but I really don't think he's doing a good job.
The mention of the Clinton/Sanders campaign feels like a weird digression.
This isn't going as well as the last one.
I promise I will abuse the power of office to attack my political opponents.
No, he's rambling, but I think his meds are better adjusted this time.
She shouldn't should litigate the details of the email accusations. Just pivot.
The problem is: how will this land on a gleeful journalist who is looking to report on a horserace? They will pounce on the "comeback kid" narrative. This is providing that narrative.
I like her answer about the e-mails. I think that she should have pivoted if Trump brought it up, but because the moderator laid out what was essentially an accusation I think she had to respond.
He is living out the Internet wankers' fantasies.
I think the repeated interruptions blunted Trump's point. It turned it into a "he-said, she-said" exchange.
A genuinely interesting question, sort of, and it won't really get discussed in this forum. Argh.
I don't think he's coming apart. I think he's passing the mute-TV test.
His face is like 3 shades redder already
He's not falling apart, but he's also incredibly bad at explaining a point. He just goes off on tangents and looses the thread of what he's talking about.
Yes, Canadians are so unhealthy, due to their single-payer health care system, it's almost as though their longevity stats don't dramatically, don't manifestly, exceed the life expectancy stats of their American neighbours to the south. Sniff, sniff.
Even after all the fries with gravy and cheese.
You guys aren't being journalists who are hungry for the next twist. You guys are being sane, rational viewers.
So now heebie's the local voice of doom?
She's baiting him on defending Russians. Please let him take it.
I'm not watching because I can't stand this crap, but I hope she's not counting on him losing his shit again. He's shown the ability, in depositions and such, to be sane for stretches of time. You can rely on that trick once, and anything else is a bonus.
145: That's what I was thinking, too. It'd be great if he did. She's been doing a lot of baiting with some success.
People in my twitter feed seem to think he's losing it far more than people here do.
By the way, forcing immigrant criminals back into Central American countries has been incredibly destabilizing to those countries.
I think he's determined not to lose his temper and he's not going to explode. He'll be nonsensical but not enough to keep the media from painting this as a comeback.
I've been in and out of the room, but so far it seems like Clinton is taking a couple of swing as Trump -- either attacks or statements designed to provoke him -- but mostly she's playing it fairly cautiously.
She's just trying to seem sane, reasonable, and not get dragged too far into the mud.
Lincoln was NOT a wonderful movie though.
I like the fact that other people here have joined me in the gutter; believing Trump is coked up.
People in my twitter feed seem to think he's losing it far more than people here do.
He's not making much sense, and going off on random tangents, but he's successfully moderating his tone.
Any fence-sitter who got to this point without being able tell them apart won't be able to untangle this debate any better.
It's not really about convincing fence-sitters at this point, though.
But this is going to spin all the wrong ways.
I dunno, 538's live coverage is portraying this as very bad for Trump, and they're pretty journalist-y.
I will say he obviously prepared more this time, having two or three words to go to on each topic. Warren Buffet and George Soros! State lines! Special prosecutor!
He's definitely better than he was in the first debate.
I'm not sure that it will be spun as a win, the fact that they are spending more time on policy seems like it should be good for Clinton.
I've only glanced at the NYT live coverage a couple times, but they seem to be unimpressed with Trump's performance too.
Even after all the fries with gravy and cheese.
The salt and vinegar on your chips cancel out the fat in your cheddar-cheese curds.
It'll get spun as "Well, we have to admit Trump improved a lot!" Grudging borderline admiration. "He went from zero to giving Hil a run for her money!"
I like how Trump equates Clinton with everything the federal government has ever done.
I am glad she's reciting her accomplishments. I think this is a good moment for her.
Trump is getting under Clinton's skin.
I think the "you could have if you were effective" is pretty obviously bullshit. Even the most uninformed person can understand majority voting.
The moderators are getting under Trump's. He'll be complaining about how it was unfair against him.
Five year old boy? Hillary said four before. Four pinocchios on fire!
She's doing fine. He's still a terrible person. I don't see this moving the needle.
The constant whining at the moderators can not possibly be coming off well to anybody.
I don't see this moving the needle.
This is probably true. Stable polls, stable polls, stable polls. Still.
I happen to have Obama and Sanders right here.
Insta-polling has Trump bearing Clinton so far, 16-9.
"Russia is new in terms of nuclear." What the fuck?
All people care about is comparing this debate to the last, and he's doing better.
I think the issue is superficially, which is enough for 45% of the country, his attacks sound like they make sense. But "maybe she's consulting?" "One senator could have passed a law"?
Patton Oswalt seems to think Trump's sniffing is a tell. "He sniffs when he is about to tell a lie."
I can't imagine being able to track that, both the sniffing and the lying are near constant so I'm not sure how you could determine if it was a causal relationship.
I want to be Martha Raddatz's lady-in-waiting.
oh my god, he's such a dumbfuck-whisperer. This all sounds so good to super dumb people.
He sounds like a dumb person's idea of what a smart person thinks a dumb person would think a smart person sounds like.
ugh, what a dumb softball question.
I'm stealing dumbfuck-whisperer.
No questions about what to do about the clowns, yet.
I'm not watching but I did a quick spin around websites before landing here while watching the kid and Heebie seems like the most Trump-positive.
This all sounds so good to super dumb people.
Right? I want to remain optimistic and politically engaged, but holy f**k, the absolute stupidity!
He's calm. He's doing a reality-TV show approximation of being presidential.
I wish they'd let the questioners respond. "Look at me, motherfucker, I don't live in an inner city just because I'm black."
194 matches my experience. heebie's probably more in touch with the dumbfucks than most other online commenters, though.
I am a little bothered by Clinton's invocation of the lurkers supporting her in email.
I think if this were the first debate, everyone would be listening to content and agreeing that Clinton was winning. The problem is that the first debate set such a low bar for Trump.
By "everyone" I mean the pundits tomorrow.
Trump can't decide if Clinton loves or hates Obama, but both are a negative.
I'm pretty sure the main pitch from the right is going to be that the moderators are stronger together/with her.
I think Trump sounds like a deranged racist misogynistic lying sociopath in this debate, but then I think he always sounds like that.
The words coming out of his mouth make no sense unless you're already a supporter. I think he'll consolidate his 35% of the electorate.
Five minutes left and still no question on climate change through three debates and whatever that Lauer thing was.
I don't think fighting with the moderators is doing him favors.
204: These debates are great at reminding me that my intuitions are not that of the median American voter.
Energy policy! Kind of like climate change.
He obviously has one line for each topic to show he studied it. "Scalia- died recently. EPA- the Environmental Protection Act."
I'm hopeful that he's going to be crucified in the days to come for the bit about instructing his AG to go after her.
There's another- Clean Coal. He has a single phrase with no understanding of what anything means.
Yes, minimizing job loss for fossil fuel power plant workers is the highest priority.
"Clean coal" doesn't mean anything, though, so that's fine.
214: We here in Pennsylvania know it's bullshit.
There's your climate change reference. If only they both had to acknowledge that horrid Chinese invention.
211: Hey now, some of us who work in energy policy are most definitely concerned about climate change.
He gave a good answer to end on.
The compliment question is literally the only one where he didn't run over time and complain about being cut off.
Bad answer, Hillary. Tomorrow Trump is going to launch a series of attack ads featuring her endorsement overtop all the terrible things Trump's children have done and said.
I'm trying to think how these answers sound to idiots undecided voters.
Hillary: That's a good question. Here's why it's important. Here's what I'll do and why what Trump will do is bad. Visit my website for more info.
Trump: One sentence showing he knows what the fuck the topic is. Rambling response of lines from his campaign rallies. Stop cutting me off, you're not fair to me.
Undecided voter: Hmm, how is the chicken cooked?
I mean, this debate had far more provable lies and fake urban legends than the first one- She's worth $250M, Muslims saw bombs and said nothing, I'm self funding, I never said sex tape- but they were delivered in a tone that if you're an ignorant tool you'd think that fantasy Hillary is a pretty bad person and Trump knows anything. I think Trump learned from Pence, just lie when you have the big stage and fuck the fact-checkers and viral videos showing all your lies.
I am feeling very depressed and dispirited just now. Please talk me down from the ledge.
There is no ledge. You're not feeling depressed. It's all lies.
Consensus seems to be that trump did enough to win (seemingly merely by avoiding complete meltdown).
I want to believe that in the last few days the political reporters who've crossed the line over to actually reporting negative news on Trump without trying to "balance" it will remain over that line.
My prediction is that Trump will do better than he should but it still won't go well for him. This weekend isn't going away.
231- The other side of despair is an interesting place. Assume the worst. Now what?
234 is right. And of course there's more coming.
235: "The Pence campaign is going nuclear, 'pissed' is the word I heard." Still surprised to hear that out of a newscaster.
Rumors that Pence is going nuclear?
Is that the new nuclear, like Russia has, or the old nuclear like we have?
I'm still glad Obama declined to prosecute the Bush administration for their war crimes. That precedent definitely helped preserve the American tradition of not threatening to prosecute political opponents.
My favorite was when he said we should get into another cold war with Russia, unless we're besties now.
Sing a song of sick Pence
Pocket full of lies
Four and twenty hours left
Until his campaign dies.
I want to believe that in the last few days the political reporters who've crossed the line over to actually reporting negative news on Trump without trying to "balance" it will remain over that line.
I never get this complaint. There has been relentless negative MSM coverage of Trump and his rallies, especially since he won the nomination (though admittedly it's only half out of civic high-mindedness and half for the clicks). Like this thing:
It simply has no effect on his core support because they simply tune out the MSM for anything other than looking for evidence of bias against them.
He was much imprpved, but Clinton was also stronger. His line on Syria and openly disagreeing with pence isnt going to bring back wavering voters, but the supreme court thing might. He was maybe lucky, because he didnt raise that issue himself.
He succeeded in tearing her down.
Evven if people will think he won, I dont know if that will help him when everything else is going to shit. He didnt express contrition, so he needs a bump in the polls instead to settle the gop
244: It's not that there isn't negative coverage, it's that they try to balance it with something negative about the Clinton campaign, implying that something minor or neutral she did is equal to an awful thing he did. Here's an example.
Maybe everyone will just talk about the tone and horribleness of it all and not who won or the more normal moments
251: That certainly seems to be the take of the NYT's initial response, judging by the headline ("A Bitter Trump-Clinton Debate, Until the Very Last Moments").
213: I'm hopeful that he's going to be crucified in the days to come for the bit about instructing his AG to go after her.
Folks on my twitter feed being pissed that pundits not mentioning that significant point.
trump threatening her with prison was more horrible and scary than all the other vile shit.
Will that help or hurt with wavering upscale wingnuts? Will the media treat it like a major thing ?
244: No, I don't believe that "lock her up" Trump supporters will change their minds. They're not a majority and they're not the only ones who read the news.
I guess if pence really does drops out ilike people say on twitter all this will b forgotten
Dont spill buttery sauce on your keyboards
You know, big ass hurricane floods in North Carolina would have been a good hook for the climate change question.
I think Trump's performance was good enough to keep Pence on board, so in that sense its a win for him.
256: Now he congratulated him, so
256: Now he congratulated him, so
Beginning to see some traction on the jailing comment. Even Ari Fleischer tweeted about it being wrong.
You know, if cocaine can let you say that kind of shit and still think you're qualified to be president and likely to win the election, I'm thinking it might be worth trying.
Not to knock alcohol, but it's never even come close to that.
262: otoh, audiences rated that moment as Trump's best of the night.
262: Ari Fleischer has a lot of experience telling people to be careful about what they say.
Greg Mitchell notices.
Very telling that TV pundits scored debate even, then 45 minutes later suddenly recall horror of Trump threatening to lock up opponent.
God, let's hope they still remember it in the morning. I think that would be a good one for Obama to bring up a few times.
Some other rando on twitter also gets it very right: Thing least mentioned about debate: that Trump has zero idea how government actually works--any of it.
Oh, come on now. A junior Senator from New York is entirely responsible for a country's tax system.
268 That's why only he can fix it!
From Charles Blow on Twitter
CNN instant poll of debate watchers:
Clinton won: 57%
Trump won: 34%
Exactly, now get these pundits out of here with this "draw" nonsense
People arent always stupod. Being composed isvfine but He awasnt great on the issues or on hiding being a bad person.
Why should she give her bounty to the dead?
What is divinity if it can come
Only in silent shadows and in dreams?
Okay, so you know I must be seriously freaking out if I'm rereading the poetry of Wallace Stevens. Like, what? the universe as we know it is about to fall apart, and so: why not read a bit of poetry!? But me and my sisters used to think Wallace Stevens was pretty cool, and we used to recite his poems to one another.
Let be be finale of seem.
The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream.
Is 272 last a typo or just weird?
Wallace Stevens was great in The Princess Bride, but I've never read his poems.
From here on out I will assume that Just Plain Jane has hordes of admirers laying mounds of newsprint-wrapped flowers at her horny feet.
why not read a bit of poetry!?
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with ice but with a fire.
Is 272 last a typo or just weird?
Not a typo. Because, you know, Wallace Stevens.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Let themselves be fucked in the ass by saintly motorcyclists, and screamed with joy
American poets are all about the ice cream.
Do you have a personal muscular cigar-roller? Because you deserve one.
283 to everyone. Except Trump voters, who are assholes.
283: They haven't lifted all the sanctions on Cuba, yo.
Sadly, Trump voters are probably over-represented among consumers of Cuban cigars.
As if only Cubans can be muscular.
Primarily because Democrats mostly don't smoke, admittedly.
Some other rando on twitter
Wasn't that a Luc Sante tweet?
287: Lots of people are muscular, but only Cubans roll cigars.
Which reminds me, the Cuban cigar factories used to all have readers, who just read stuff to the rollers all day while they rolled. Super great!
Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, and I grabbed them by the pussy.
The location of a mermaid's pussy continues to be debated by specialists.
Being oviparous, their pussies are essentially the entire ocean.
Okay, but there needs to be a hole of some sort.
292: Mmm, primitive socialized podcasts.
296 Ragged claws scuttling creepy?
The tradition in 292 was maintained in the cigar factories of Yuba City in Tampa, at least. Maybe in others too. #usa
297: https://www.visittci.com/ocean-hole
That's locker room talk. Guys in locker rooms talk about grabbing fish by the cloaca... anything. Anyone who knows me, knows those words don't reflect who I am.
And are you "I don't read poetry" Americans even serious!?Wallace Stevens is among the best and the brightest that your nation has ever produced. And he was truly, f***ing brilliant, by the way.
And are you "I don't read poetry" Americans even serious!?Wallace Stevens is among the best and the brightest that your nation has ever produced. And he was truly, f***ing brilliant, by the way.
How many Americans have you met that read poetry? I have not met many.
289: Wasn't that a Luc Sante tweet?
Now that you mention it; I think yes.
Such feed for me this evening, very Twitter. Wow.
Emailing with my daughter and we are agreeing it was a very disturbing debate. I think heightened for me by the thought that 10s of millions of my fellow citizens were undoubtedly pounding their couch cushions because he was finally letting it all hand out. The Reps have certainly reaped the whirlwind this go around, but so have we all, no matter what the outcome of the election.
And this right here was beyond disturbing. My haor was on end.
Just because Wallace Stevens was a brilliant poet didn't make him a good pick to set the Kennedy administration's Vietnam policy.
How many Americans have you met that read poetry?
Well, maybe fewer than a few, admittedly. But still, Wallace Stevens. The most quintessentially American poet imaginable, and you're telling me some Canadian schoolgirls are in charge of his legacy?
I mean, fuck this motherfucker. A fucking putrescent Grendel dredged up from our collective hateful greed and spite, and given shape and billions of dollars to mock and torment us.
But still, Wallace Stevens. The most quintessentially American poet imaginable, and you're telling me some Canadian schoolgirls are in charge of his legacy?
No, if anyone controls his legacy it's his heir(s), but I can tell you for a fact that the vast majority of Americans do not care at all about poetry regardless of the nationality of any individual poet.
Poetry, no. But Col. Blake was loved by all.
Definitely a better performance from Trump and as a result required a lot more beer and shots than last time. And its Monday morning here and I'm still working off my weekend wedding hangover
That was basically the Breitbart comment section debating Hillary Clinton. His supporters are his supporters: deplorable pieces of shit in a basket, and they'll love it, but I don't think he won anyone over.
316: Hillary's best line of the night:
HC to the press on her plane:We're waiting for this plane to take off so we can get some drinks served.
317: Worth finding a picture of Bannon in the room with the "accusers." Creepiest smile ever.
That video is disturbing, but I think that's partially the camera angle. I don't think he's that close to her--he's just walking back to his podium.
Kellyanne Conway with the not-so-veiled threat to Rep politicos...
CONWAY: I would talk to some of the members of Congress out there, when I was younger and prettier, them rubbing up against girls, sticking their tongues down women's throats who uninvited who didn't like it.
...
CONWAY: And some of them, by the way, are on the list of people who won't support Donald Trump because they all ride around on a high horse.
but I can tell you for a fact that the vast majority of Americans do not care at all about poetry regardless of the nationality of any individual poet.
So this just absolutely depresses me. Canadians are a bunch of unlettered, untutored philistines, to be sure, but still, you can probably get those hosers to care about a bit of poetry. Gordon Downie ("our Gord") has maybe already achieved it.
The work of Wallace Stevens is so far superior to anything that Gordie has ever written: Americans! what are you thinking!?
The consensus at my party seemed to be there would be little impact either way.
I thought Trump was even cattier than usual - perpetually bringing mic up to pursed lips in a preening, assholish way. But that might be Bitch Eating Crackers syndrome.
320: Probably but it was very evident.
HRC: "It was a very small space," Clinton said of Trump's proximity. "And I tried to give him space whenever he was talking to people. I would go back and you know, lean up against my stool. But he was very present."
321: If you took the tu quoque out of Trump's debate performance tonight, I'm not sure it would have had any content at all.
And, by the way, in Canada we have a saying about hockey that pretty much sums up the national character:
Imagine the most reticent and the most closed-mouthed oldey-timey old reprobate imaginable:
Hockey?
It's our game.
I placed a jar in Tennessee
and huge it was, upon a hill.
It took dominion everywhere.
It was beautiful.
I think we're done here.
327 is quite excellent. Because: Wallace Stevens.
I placed a jar on Gordie Howe
Fuck you
Who is Gordie Howe
Stormcrow bringing it. Will masturbate to Edith Bolling Galt
Wilson out of respect. I think Trump is done and there isn't shit the fuckfaces can do about it, the only question is who in Congress he pulls down too. And there I'm not that optimistic.
More broadly, I haven't figured out whether America is better off bringing the Trump-monsters out into the open or worse off because Trump-monsters out in the open encourage more monsters. My instinct is the latter and that things will get very bad vis a vis the sad white yuckos until they get better.
My grandfather, in his stripey, woollen suit, used to play hockey with King Clancy. Francis Michael ("King") Clancy: my dad used to work for him.
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NMM to Andrzej Wajda.
One of the greatest directors.
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Upcoming business trip and all I can think of is getting hammered. And I've never been a big drinker. I'm afraid I'm turning into the cliche of the Gulf expat.
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Paging Barry.
I went to see the dreadful Snowden last night. One of the previews was a movie about a man (I think he was Russian) who has hated everyone since his wife died until the South Asian family moves in next door. Any idea what movie that might be.
Also, why is "Mia Madre" not even coming up when I search on Netflix?
"
My xfit instructor, leans left but generally uninformed, thought Trump won. I think that's what unreflective sexism in an uninformed person would cause one to conclude.
335: Did the old Russia switch to loving everybody or to just hating that one South Asian family?
There could not be an avalanche of negative coverage large enough to give proper attention to all of Trump's seriously problematic statements. No matter how large it was, it would still be shortchanging a lot of his problems--because the statements just come too many and too fast. This seems like it was tried to some extent in the primaries, and it got the media criticized for giving Trump wall-to-wall coverage to the exclusion of everyone else. And the contrast between Trump and Clinton is much greater than the contrast between him and the other Republican primary clowns. I'm honestly not sure how the media is supposed to solve this.
I will say that most of the spin seems less awful than I feared.
335: A man called Ove: http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/a-man-called-ove-2016
The first post-debate Rasmussen poll shows Clinton up by 7 points. So there's that.
Sorry to rain on your gloom and doom Heebie.
I went to see the dreadful Snowden last night. One of the previews was a movie about a man (I think he was Russian) who has hated everyone since his wife died until the South Asian family moves in next door. Any idea what movie that might be.
That is the plot of Clint Eastwood's "Gran Torino", if that helps.
The talking dog is a metaphor for immigration.
342: That poll came out post-debate, but it was not taken then. But it *is* the first "real" poll with substantive % of responses after the Friday tape release. And it did show a bump of +6% from just before. (Most polls already at ~=6% before the pussy grab tape, Rasmussen is rightfully regarded as Repub-leaning and has been on the low margin/small Trump lead all year.)
Sorry to rain on your gloom and doom Heebie.
Heebie is just messing with us. She knows that Hillary is inevitable.
My xfit instructor, leans left but generally uninformed, thought Trump won. I think that's what unreflective sexism in an uninformed person would cause one to conclude.
Trump's line about how Hillary should be in jail delighted the ever-accurate Frank Luntz focus group. I think that is just the conventional wisdom for a lot of people, even those voting for her. Hillary committed various crimes, we're not sure what they are but there's no smoke without fire -- it's probably the sort of thing a lot of politicians do I guess, but still it would be nice if they got punished, but oh well, whaddya gonna do.
Heebie is just messing with us. She knows that Hillary is inevitable.
Right - in no way do I think this is endangering Clinton's actual win. Things I am worried about: the 40% kill-and-eat-you crowd gaining legitimacy, and in particular questioning the legitimacy of Clinton's win, and also not having the downticket blow-out she needs to have a shot at having a semi-successful presidency, at least for two years.
334
I thought expats and royalty had no problem accessing booze on the gulf. Is that not true?
Downticket is interesting. A Trump who is clearly a loser but still semi-viable arguably hurts candidates like Ayotte, Heck, etc who are in tough races and would LOVE to be able to wash themselves clean of the Donald and reset their races as generic D v generic R. A Clinton win but not a Trump-biting-off-a-woman's-ear-while-dropping-n-bombs win, which is what seems to have happened, arguably hurts the R congressional candidates the most.
Ha!
http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/10/tiffany-trump-masterfully-ducked-a-kiss-from-donald-trump.html
My grandfather, in his stripey, woollen suit, used to play hockey with King Clancy. Francis Michael ("King") Clancy: my dad used to work for him.
As every U.S. schoolchild (at least in our house) knows, the King Clancy Trophy goes annually to an NHL player for leadership. I grew up near the house of Aldege "Baz" Bastien, who was GM of the Pittsburgh Penguins for years. His claim to fame in our neighborhood was his glass eye - shocker, he was a goalie in the days before masks.
Spent yesterday deep in the country, and the ubiquity of Trump signs (plus utter absence of Hillary signs) was deeply depressing. Like, "you people really are all awful, aren't you?"
One jackass had a big homemade sign that I think said "The Deplorables"* with a basket nailed to it.
Haha, you think nonwhites are subhuman, that's hilarious!
*as if on a mailbox
Thanks, NickS.
Now, I'm embarrassed, because the family was Iranian, -and the filmmaker is Swedish.
I saw my first Clinton-Kaine bumper sticker this weekend. I have still not seen any Trump-Pence bumper stickers. There are a few yard signs for both, but way outnumbered by the Congressional race. I have not seen any visual indicators that there is a Senate race, aside from the TV ads. Election fever has been thoroughly inoculated away in these particular suburbs.
We're six months away from some kind of aggro-roots band called "The Deplorables" that will make Kid Rock look like Townes Van Zandt.
Oh, a funnier thing about now being new in the Chicago area is that all the local ads from Republicans attack the Democrat for being part of "The Madigan Machine". There are no other issues mentioned. I couldn't even tell which party was which in these ads because it was just guilt by association with someone I've never heard of. Until I noticed the politicians being attacked were mostly black women.
Very insular, the politics around here!
335, 341 I haven't heard of it before.
And Gran Torino certainly came to mind. Except for the Russkie bit.
Lots of Clinton-Kaine signs in my neighborhood and general area, purely lifestyle accessories since AFAIK there's no field office within 400 miles of here handing them out so they are online purchases.
350 I can drink in Dubai. Here there's a hotel scene but it's kind of seedy and most areas even then are dry. I could also get a letter of no objection from my employer and get a special license which would allow me to by a certain amount of booze (predicated on my salary) at the single licensed liquor store in the country but for various reasons I'm not going to do that. So I just drink when I travel. And think about drinking when I'm not.
Things are going from bad to worse with management here. Wholesale changing of the guard. And I've got a new boss in addition to the new boss for the section. This one is a Fremen and a coworker in my section. She was pretty good at what she was doing before. This...well we'll see. But some things do not bode well.
Latest NBC/WSJ poll: Clinton leads 46-35 in 4-way race, 52-38 in 2-way.
Barry: only able to drink when he's NOT in the gutter.
52-38 in 2-way.
A full 10% undecided? Who are these people?
Paul Ryan to House GOP Caucus: Sauve qui peut.
And this is a 10/8-9 poll, so fully after TrumpTapes, but before debate.
It's so hard to decide! He's a racist fascist, but her voice is so shrill!
Also, I hear she had an email server.
Are they not just people who won't vote?
Swedish, Russian. Close enough!
Mia Madre was pretty good. Moving in places. And John Turturro fun to watch.
362 by s/b buy. It's like I'm already btocked!
368 I've started arguing with someone on Twitter (a follower, who I like) who's like what to do? One guy never no way but OTOH Hillary is soooo entitled. Like, what?!
371: Maybe people who think of themselves as likely voters, because they normally always vote... but are not going to vote this time.
365: mostly people who don't like either candidate but can't decide who's worse.
Come to think, is there a single voter anywhere in America with a basically favorable impression of both candidates? ("I like them both. Just trying to decide who's better."). I'm guessing not. (How could there be?) That must be a first.
I could also get a letter of no objection from my employer and get a special license...
That's kind of amazing.
I worry that the leftier people I follow on twitter who say things like "don't put the responsibility of defeating Trump on us, liberals!" but who also have seemed likely to vote for Clinton are going to see Clinton's growing lead asvan excuse to not vote for her. At least I don't think they're going to vote Stein either.
There are only a couple of dozen of those people total. They talk a lot, but 'too left to vote for the Democrat' is a really small category. (One I'm generally fond of, and am almost in myself. Not knocking them. But they're not numerous.)
If things continue as they are going now, there's likely to be some bleed-off of lefty voters as the "vote for the imperialist neoliberal, it's important" argument loses salience. But then that's a small price to pay for a humiliating blowout win.
Paul Ryan is a fucking piece of work.
379, 380 - I worry more that those people will stay home hurting House/Senate races that are genuinely close. Leftier-than-thous inclined to stay home could arguably have a real impact on the NH, NC, PA and NV Senate races, plus a few house races. Of course divided government as a result of close, swingable elections is a terrible unnecessary outcome for any plausibly "left" cause but who cares because neoliberalism.
If the race is obviously not close, lots of people will stay home instead of going to the effort of voting. "Leftier than thou" people will not be a big fraction of those people. "Leftier than thou" people are not even a big fraction of the people who dislike both candidates. And remember also, most people don't think about politics much one way or the other, so why bother voting if it's not close.
383 is probably true. "Particularly annoying subset of a larger group of people who won't vote" is most accurate.
Leftier-than-thou people are my people in ways that people who don't care are not. Am I not my brother's keeper?
Saw a lot of Trump-Pence signs in New Hampshire this weekend, and fewer but not lonely Clinton-Kaine ones. Another Sununu is running for something, and the Ayotte-Hassan race is fully subsidizing every Boston TV station.
383 is even scarier because I think the Trumpers are least likely to stay, maybe less from enthusiasm than denial at whether the race will be close. Which could then result in it being close.
I need to make my three-days-late interpretation of Trump's tape somewhere.
To me, the reason it is so damaging is that the gross, behind-her-back part segues directly into immediately-recognizable Trump to the woman's face. We've all seen Trump present exactly that type of public behavior, and the tape shows us what he was saying privately a few seconds before. So if he schmoozes us like he schmoozes that soap star, and if he was talking like that about her behind her back...
I'd love for a tape to come out that was Trump talking about Trump voters behind their back, calling them rubes and whatnot.
I liked the undecided Muslim voter last night. "Mr. Trump, what will you do to keep me from being run out of town like a common pygmy?"
I'd love for a tape to come out that was Trump talking about Trump voters behind their back, calling them rubes and whatnot.
Note to self: re-watch A Face in the Crowd.
389. If found it could be the b-side of the Clinton tape where she talks about her "public" and "private" positions.
Of course, the gold standard is the whitey tape. I'm still waiting for that one to drop.
But did I say "Kill Whitey" or "Kill, Whitey"?
"And when you're a star whitey they let you do it. You can do anything."
This is kind of a fun story. That HRC is one smart cookie: http://thefreethoughtproject.com/breaking-clinton-campaign-elevating-trump/
For fuck's sake, that's just a campaign restating the conventional wisdom for internal consumption. Wikileaks isn't even as stunning as an Republican attack ad.
It occurs to me, as I read about a WSJ/NBC poll showing HRC up by 14, that all of those plaintive, "Why isn't she beating him by more?" complaints were basically by a bunch of political obsessives in utter denial that 90% of the country doesn't give a shit about politics. I mean, there are literally more Americans with a fully formed opinion about the latest Bachelor or whatever than there are about the Presidential race when you're more than 6-8 weeks out.
So, up until the first debate, you had Republican voters telling pollsters they'd vote for the person with the (R) next to their name, and vice-versa. It would have taken nominating literal George W Bush to result in a meaningful number of Republican voters saying they'd vote D in August.
But then you had 2 people on stage, 1 obviously qualified and the other obviously not, and Trump's support started to melt away. And now it's looking as if it really might melt away to not much more than the, well, deplorable 35% who really, truly support white nationalism with a heaping helping of misogyny.
It was not in HRC's power to accelerate that timeline, especially not with the press playing by the Clinton Rules (and, arguably, actively rooting for a close race while the ad dollars were in doubt).
I mean "to make whomever the Republicans nominate unpalatable to the majority of the electorate" is just barely a breath away from "We need to get more votes than the other guy in order to win."
I don't see it as an attack on HRC at all. I think coming up with a killshot for the Republican party is to be congratulated and rewarded actually.
It's not even that. If a real reporter found that left at a bus stop, they wouldn't even put it on the news.
Also, doesn't seem like they believed that one of the "Pied Piper" candidates could actually win the nomination.
I didn't either. I thought it was going to be your governor.
398: Maybe an email will appear showing that it was Hillary's plan to keep the race close until it was too late for Republicans to dump Trump.
396: Transcripts from Clinton's paid speeches have surfaced proving -- as her campaign proved -- the candidate has a lack of understanding for the middle and working class, saying she is "far removed" because of the "fortunes" she and her husband "enjoy."
This is quotation sort of like a ransom letter.
I mean, per 400, the first part isn't even plausibly making HRC look bad (I think we all agree that McCaskill was smart), but the second half of the article hunts desperately for scandal, as in the above quote.
I saw some moron* on FB saying that, if not for pussy-grabbing, the wikileaks thing would have made for a devastating weekend for Clinton. It's really pathetic. There's not even a gun there, let alone a smoking one.
*that is, a minor internet personage, not some random friend
403: No, he never had a chance. He accepted Obamacare money, and said it was Christian thing to do. That was unforgivable.
It's got to be really hard to be surrounded by Ohioans and still maintain any sense of human compassion.
It's sort of like the opposite of a gun. "Hi Wall Street thanks for your speaker's fee. Now let me talk to you briefly about how you should be better regulated. Also, I think we should have freer movement of goods and people from Latin America. Oh if you thought I was anything other than an ordinary Democrat who actually believes in my policies you were wrong. Thx Bye."
It's pretty clear that however far Clinton is removed from average Americans, she's very much closer to them than Wikileaks. Which I suppose shouldn't be surprising for something run by an Australian paid by the Kremlin and trapped in a single building in Ecuador.
396: I love the Pied Piper metaphor, but it has an ambiguity: Are GOP voters being compared to children or rats?
I'm thinking: a basket of deplorable rats.
not with the press playing by the Clinton Rules (and, arguably, actively rooting for a close race while the ad dollars were in doubt).
I think that the Clinton campaign was also (somewhat) happy to have it look close -- to motivate fundraising and volunteers. If Clinton had a steady 8 point lead it would have been difficult to attract time and money.
I saw some moron* on FB saying that, if not for pussy-grabbing, the wikileaks thing would have made for a devastating weekend for Clinton. It's really pathetic.
I may be FB friends with the same moron.
Pathetic thing 1: The moron thought that the wikileaks thing should have made for a devastating weekend.
Pathetic thing 2: The moron was probably right that it would have made for a devastating weekend.
398: I think a lot of people overlook the ways in which Trump is an effective candidate.
Trump sucks up all the media oxygen, with the net result being that nothing substantive is discussed in the media. This works against Hillary.
It's true that a lot of bad things are said about Trump, but only bad things are said about Hillary - because the entire narrative is the one that Trump dictates. Trump is within spitting distance of the presidency because of, not in spite of, the crazy shit that the does.
He has overwhelmed the media with bullshit, and (until recently) the media had no clue how to process it.
Even this morning, watching the Today Show, I saw something like a 50/50 split between Trump's recently revealed indiscretion and B&H Clinton's alleged victims.
Any time you disintermediate the media, Hillary crushes Trump.
Hillary's only available approach is to let Trump hang himself, tough it out and be elected president. I don't think she's made a significant false move in the entire election, including the primaries.
Slogan: vote against Trump or you may never be able to vote freely again.
410: until they flee the sinking ship, they're not there yet.
The "public/private" thing is negotiation 101. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. I mean, wasn't it even in a West Wing episode?
Here's some good news: the noxious Darrell Issa might be in peril due to Trump. (Hasn't disavowed yet.)
405: Exactly this narrative was being pushed on the random talk radio station was listening to this afternoon. The station did not seem to be overtly right wing either. It was just a couple of people talking about the election.
We just got phone-banked to work on a phone bank. Which seems very meta.
419: That's what I got solicited to do instead of canvassing in Reno (the campaign is no longer funding the busing of Californians there, just Vegas, possibly Reno has been saturated). I guess the idea is if you activate locals in swing states to volunteer, they're a lot more productive.
My Mormon friend is pushing this guy as a third party option. I could see him taking a share of Utah.
Is anyone going to Vegas on election day to work? I am. The last time I did that, in 2004, I had the best gambling night of my life as Kerry lost, which was the best hedging mechanism ever. Rejoicing with $$ through the tears.
If a tape emerged of Trump making fun of his supporters behind the scenes, I bet many of them would listen to it and still not be able to tell that's what's going on.
423 Or admire him for telling it like it is. No politically correct bs from their man.
Yeah, I think there's literally nothing Trump could do to lose his core followers.
In their own parlance you might say they're "cucked."
To work as in election day stuff, or as in a business trip?
422:
Tigre, I will most likely volunteer in Las Vegas on election day. Just got back from registering voters there this past Saturday. What was your experience like there in 2004? (Besides the bet...)
Part of his stump speech is to tell his followers how much they suck.
Anyway, don't know if this should go here or on Twitter thread- I saw a tweet pointing out that if God wanted to test his followers to see if they were just using religion to justify their views or actually believed the bible they love to hump, there could not be a more precise embodiment of the seven sons than Trump. Someone should make one of those viral meme things the kids love these days- a captioned illustration of Trump for each of the sins- I'm super rich, grab their pussy, we have the best everything, too lazy to prep for debates, punch the protestors, stuffing his face with McDondalds, my dick is so big (that's envy, not pride...)
413: I think this was pretty decisively refuted by last month, before the first debate. Trump hired a new campaign manager, who seemed mainly to try to keep Trump out of the news. In the ensuing space, the media went crazy with Clinton non-scandals. Trump recovered in the polls. Now that we're in debate season and Trump is in the news all the time, he's headed back down.
429 - awesome. I liked canvassing there on election day; it's such a weird town off the strip. I was in (predictably) a Latino neighborhood and some Spanish might have helped. Like a lot of Western cities the relative lot sizes are pretty small despite lots of commercial sprawl, so you can make good time between houses. I'm doing election protection stuff this time, which I hate and is way more boring than canvassing, but is where they want the lawyers.
432: There was talk that his new campaign team would keep him from saying nasty stuff, but that never actually happened - that was media spin.
Otherwise, I'm not sure where we disagree. Yeah, the media objectively favors Trump, and Trump's strategy was never a good bet to make him president. But (both with the active connivance of the media and because of the media's inability to process Trump's method) Trump has made it impossible for Hillary to present the positive case for herself.
I repeat: Any time you disintermediate the media, Hillary crushes Trump. (In addition to the debates, the convention was a home run for Hillary.)
I'm doing election protection—has a schoolhouse rock quality—in WI. They want every early voting day this time, not just Election Day. You sign up on a calendar; I'll have to rent a car.
It's Wisconsin. You could probably find a car with the keys left in the ignition.
Today's NYT email story continues the bullshit. There is nothing even remotely scandalous or even embarrassing but they're "out there" so they have to cover it, and they have to give it a catchy headline do people will read it, so it's "campaign missteps". Bill was upset about Hillary losing NH. They discussed whether jokes were appropriate and how they would go over. They came up with some stupid slogans while brainstorming and dumped them. I mean, it would be nice if the Trump operation showed 1% of the professionalism here, they'd avoid shit like "Make Mexico great again also" or, say, having your candidate call for his opponent's inprisonment.
WRT the various leaked thingies, people should really read the thing that the front-page poster has up at the top of the blog.
He hasn't bragged about committing sexual assault since he got a professional campaign staff. That's got to have taken lots of work on their part.
Yeah, they're doing early voting in Nevada too. But I can only take so much Nevada time.
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I dreamed that Halford, in conversation with essear, was giving us all a detailed explanation of who made how much money on The A-Team.
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The series. The dream-prompt was that the series was coming back and one of the actors had done something clever financially.
I in fact do have an A-Team related case so were it not for professional ethics and my fiduciary obligation of confidentiality I could make your dream come true.
I love it when a comment thread comes together.
I can definitely see LB as Hannibal Smith.
It's the cigar habit, right? I keep on meaning to cut back.
So I buy a nice-looking Muscat, only to realize I don't own a goddamn corkscrew. OT because absurd incompetence.
I had one of those divorce moments when I tried to pour myself a glass of wine, and realized Buck had left with the corkscrew, a few months back.
Luckily, there was Scotch.
You can open a bottle of wine if you have a shoe and a wall. It seems very much more trouble than walking out to buy a corkscrew, but I've seen a video.
And yet Scotch isn't necessarily a good substitute- you can't match a good island malt to boeuf bourguignon, for instance, without doing violence to both- so you should still be pissed off.
You just mix the scotch with grape juice to make wine.
Some people were never meant to leave Nebraska.
Queen Victoria used to put Scotch in her claret "to strengthen it". I bet it did, too, but it's a vile mixture.
And yet Scotch isn't necessarily a good substitute- you can't match a good island malt to boeuf bourguignon, for instance, without doing violence to both- so you should still be pissed off.
I don't think that's right. Beef and scotch pair well. I mean don't cook the bb with Laphroig or whatever.
You know what, Chris? Let them elect Trump. They deserve it.
By pair well I mean "R Tigre likes it" but still.
460: Because I'm like royalty, I once mixed Jack Daniels with domestic sparkling white wine. At the time, it seemed great.
I'm half-watching Spielberg's War of the Worlds. Do the insufferable brats get heat-rayed at some point? Because if they don't I think I'll half-do something more productive.
If I had a nice glass of Muscat, maybe I'd persist, but.
I have a very indirect familial connection with the A-Team but it's extraordinarily unlikely it's anyone with a current link to Tigre.
464. The right thing to mix with domestic sparkling white wine is crème de cassis: Kir Royale. Now that is fit for a monarch.
467: We all know you're really Audrey Hepburn.
465 Keep watching, IIRC you'll be at least half-pleased with it.
I'm currently procrastinating packing for my trip.
I don't know, Barry. Those are some tiresome brats.
Now there's a mob of ordinary people fighting to the death over a scarce resource, in exactly the way people don't in actual disasters.
Tom Cruise is crying manly tears of despair. I love Tom Cruise, but he's much better when he's being evil.
A functional vehicle. Racial hatred is always plentiful.
Geese flying ominously in the night sky. Crowd reaction shot before appearance of tripod.
Cruise pleads earnestly for rules to be broken on behalf of himself and his cute daughter.
He succeeds. I am unsurprised.
Back on-topic: Has Trump decide to finally take one for the team? He is lashing out bizarrely against Ryan and the RNC on twitter. (On a phone so no link, but google and you'll see stories.) It looks like he's realized he has lost the election and so he's trying to aggressively distance himself from the rest of the party (and simultaneously give them more room to distance themselves from him), so his failure doesn't drag them all down with him. That would be a shame--I really want him to remain the face of the party.
Here Barry, I'll help you procrastinate: Spielberg is a tiresome sentimental hack.
Empty clothes of heat-rayed humans drift in the wind. John Williams hits the string section. Subtlety!
Cruise: "You can hate me, but I love you!" You're better than this, man.
Sounds of mechanized combat are muted. The orchestra swells.
Tiresome brat son: "You need to let me go." He's right, Tom. He's a fucking idiot.
Tiresome brat#1 officially incinerated. Things looking up.
Scratch that, Cruise is singing a lullaby. While crying, manfully.
480, 482 - agree with peep. He's trying to take them down with him and/or intimidate them back to his side.
"Running, that's what'll kill you. And I'm dead set on living."
Spielberg is a tiresome sentimental hack.
You'll have to do much better than that.
Also agree with peep. Trump is blustering because that's his only response, to everything.
Fight me! You know you want to.
Oh, and who does Spielberg hire for the ominous opening narration? Morgan Freeman. Hack.
Running, that's what'll kill you.
Damn right!
Spielberg, not Freeman. Though Freeman has been phoning it in for years now.
There is no Republican party without Trump supporters. At least half and probably more are strongly on his side in this battle with the Republican establishment. By attacking them, Trump is splitting the party in two.
The Republican Party is opposed to sex education because it reproduces by mitosis.
Phallic tentacle-thing probing basement hideout, very slowing and thoroughly. Which makes little sense, in light of the canonical Martian ability and inclination to incinerate anything effortlessly.
For an interstellar civilization, those Martian tentacles are mighty dumb.
Tentacle withdraws. Sigh of relief. I figure sudden noisy re-eruption in
Can't fight. Won't fight. Comity.
less than 5 minutes. Stupid html.
Cruise blindfolds daughter prior to killing loudmouthed moron. Cute.
And closes the door behind him, for double-safety. Hollywood childrearing!
World-killing tentacle monsters prove surprisingly vulnerable to axes.
Brat #2 abducted, but preemptively alive, since Cruise is still running around shouting her name. Manfully.
That's an unusual name for a girl.
Martians keep captives in holding cages, because they understand the importance of Holocaust/slave ship imagery to aspiring world conquerors.
Packed! Well, probably over-packed is more like it.
Tom Cruise has been carrying brat #2 in his arms for about three days now. Good thing he's a red-blooded longshoreman from New Jersey.
Hugely pregnant ex-wife is still alive, in completely unharmed Boston townhouse. Shocker.
Tune in next trip when I pack for the Dubai International Film Festival and Mossy watches The Adventures of Tintin:
The Secret of the Unicorn.
Brat #1 also still alive, despite running straight into a fireball that consumed an entire mechanized regiment.
Christ that movie was shit.
So, Barry, explain to me why SS (Oh! The irony!) is one of our great living film-makers.
If that was actually planned, Barry wins the blog.
Can we talk about Godard instead?
I can't stand Spielberg. Haven't liked him for a very long time. Duel was good though.
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Of topic, but entirely in the spirit of the blog: lots of luvverly pics!!! (Probably safe for work unless you work in the Pentagon.)
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Barry, explain to me why SS (Oh! The irony!) is one of our great living film-makers.
Not an answer, but here's a video which examines and praises one element of Spielberg's style -- the non-flashy long take.
I noticed the long takes, and they are well executed. In the service of total hackery.
527 - total erotic experience. Those are the best.
Both AI and Minority Report are good Spielberg movies. He's great with pacing, character development, cinematography-- such a shame that his emotional interests tend to the maudlin.
I liked the one about the archeologist.
I also remember Minority Report as good, but wonder what I'd think now.
I also remember Minority Report as good, but wonder what I'd think now.
I saw it a couple years ago and thought that it didn't hold up very well -- just because special effects have improved so much.
I realize that I haven't seen most of his movies.
I think Duel is the only Spielberg movie I've seen that I ever want to rewatch. If it's on tv anyway, or free to stream.
There is no Republican party without Trump supporters.
And yet, there is no viable Republican Party with Trump's supporters, unless they are properly muzzled. The Trumpies in my Facebook feed are going absolutely berserk; I don't know how they're going to be coaxed back in their cages.
Watching Paul Ryan flailing around trying to resolve this paradox is so much fun. Is it possible to die of schadenfreude?
480: Nope. His diehards are too loyal and many, at least 20% of the general public, at least 40% of GOP primary voters, for this to be anything other than going his own way, and damn the consequences to the GOP. (The Samson Option, as Jeet Heer puts it.)
I'll check the bathroom walls for posters on that.
The Trumpies in my Facebook feed are going absolutely berserk
I'd love to read some articles with long excerpts from those posts. I wouldn't need to eat for a few days after that.
Q: How is a Steven Spielberg movie like a Camaro?
A: If it was made later than 1982, it's a bloated piece of junk.
527. A crew of 15!?! My mapping of ekranoplans to the Starship Enterprise (via Stross's story "Missile Gap") is shattered. Shattered, I say.
I think Duel is the only Spielberg movie I've seen that I ever want to rewatch.
Um... Jaws? You moron.
I am totally on board with the Spielberg hate, but Saving Private Ryan is pretty good if fast-forward is liberally applied.
For very different reasons, you could say the same about Showgirls.
That a minimum of 30% of the country is deplorable is the scariest part of this election, but that people like Ken Bone are still undecided is the most frustrating (putatively undecided--he may just be hamming it up for his 15 minutes of fame).
544: you want something more like the Boeing Pelican (tragically never built).
There's a 90 old woman in a wheelchair on this flight to Zagreb with a green canvas handbag with "Minutemen, Meat Puppets, Descendents, Angst" stenciled in the side. It can't be hers but apparently it is.
That a minimum of 30% of the country is deplorable is the scariest part of this election, but that people like Ken Bone are still undecided is the most frustrating (putatively undecided--he may just be hamming it up for his 15 minutes of fame).
He's a white male who lives in Missouri and works as a coal plant operator. For him to be undecided instead of Trumping it up shows great open-mindedness.
Um... Jaws?
You mean re-watch the hour of drunk guys on a boat? No.
You moron.
Uh, I think I also need to respond with an insult? If that's the way you want it, dickhead.
I didn't watch the debate so I don't really get what the big deal about Ken Bone is, but it is good that he asked a question about energy, which is an important issue that hasn't gotten much attention in this election. (It also sounds like his specific question was quite reasonable, especially for a coal-plant operator in the age of Trump.)
The NYT is reporting that the Clinton campaign is seriously contesting Georgia and Arizona, and some Democrats think they even have a shot at the House.
556 I was sorely tempted to offer her 50 Euros for it.
I've got a 6 hour layover here next week. Anyone have any good suggestions for what to see and do in Zagreb for about 4 hours?
562. You have to go here, and report back.
OT: I think this is antisemitic. I would feel more strongly about it if the chicken the picture had more feathers.