Re: Dumbing it too far down.

1
While white nationalism certainly overlaps with white supremacy and racism... White nationalism, he said, is the belief that national identity should be built around white ethnicity, and that white people should therefore maintain both a demographic majority and dominance of the nation's culture and public life.
That's not "overlapping", it's a goddamn dictionary definition.
Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 10:06 AM
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Fucking Nazis! What's so hard to get about that?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 10:21 AM
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This normalization is the most troubling aspect to me. I grew up hearing first hand accounts of Germans who'd lived through Nazi Germany, and one thing they noted is how not apocalyptic it felt in 1933. From the vantage point of history, we see the Nazis in all their evilness, but in 1933, 1935, even 1938 or 1940, it was easy to ignore or minimize or excuse away what in retrospect was clear. The lesson I was taught was that It Could Happen Here, and constant vigilance against Fascism was needed. It's something I and the rest of America has collectively failed on.

I don't think Trump is Hitler in that he has a clear plan for creating a Reich that lasts a thousand years and involves mass-scale genocide. I do think he's like Hitler in that he's not bound by the norms of human decency or law, and it's becoming clear that most Americans will go along with wherever he wants to lead us.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 10:33 AM
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I've also been thinking a lot recently about one of ajay's comments that the main problem is that we've let people forget the Nazis lost. I've also always thought that on some level we've let the Nazis win by portraying them as sexy blond(e)s in the historical record/mass media. I think that we need to go on the offensive with a "Nazis were losing losers who LOST" campaign. Reinforce exactly how loser-ish they were at all levels.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 10:44 AM
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4 Exactly. Nazis were losers who got their assses kicked for ways from Sunday. Never forget.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 10:49 AM
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For s/b four


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 10:49 AM
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Ditto for the Confederacy.


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 10:52 AM
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I assume the alternate history of the independent Confederacy during the world wars has been written many times; I'm now succumbing to morbid curiosity about how deep the anti-democratic commitments of confederate nostalgists go. Not the obvious ways they would have limited the franchise, but whether there were particular ideals of oligarchy as well. Total embarrassing ignorance here.

My faith in this country's commitment to democracy is sliding into despair over how much Communism -- a horrible system! -- appears in hindsight to have shifted the world left.

4: how many more Downfall memes do you need?! (but seriously, it's true)


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 10:52 AM
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Imagine going back even one year in the past and showing this article to people.


Posted by: real ffeJ annaH | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 10:52 AM
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8 stole my line about the Downfall videos. But semi-seriously, those are all about what a pathetic loser Hitler was.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 10:56 AM
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Fuck this. I'll quote the worst graf:

Some will see the distinction between white nationalism and white supremacy as a semantic sleight of hand. But although many white supremacists are also white nationalists, and vice versa, Professor Kaufmann says the terms are not synonyms: White supremacy is based on a racist belief that white people are innately superior to people of other races; white nationalism is about maintaining political and economic dominance, not just a numerical majority or cultural hegemony."

That "although" doing a lot of work!

One wonders if Prof. Kaufmann enjoyed today's Times...


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 10:57 AM
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Just for completeness sake, I think we should find the guy who is a white nationalist but not a white supremacist. I'd like to hear the argument for why white people suck but should enjoy political and economic dominance.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:02 AM
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7: Not to blow my own trumpet too much but I have also made that remark about the Confederacy.
Centrists are centrists because they have no principles except a desire to be on the winning side. So stop going on and on about how the Confederacy were nasty people - go on and on about how they lost! Don't put Sojourner Truth on the currency, all she did was be moral and righteous. Put Sherman and Grant on instead. Name military bases after Chamberlain, not Bragg and other similar traitors. Name the next carrier after Farragut and the one after that after Worden (captain of the Monitor) or someone similar. Start having massive parades on the anniversary of every Union victory, start using The Battle Hymn of the Republic as the unofficial anthem.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:03 AM
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Putting Grant on the currency is probably too novel to work.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:06 AM
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I am truly despairing over the media over the next four years.

Me too, but I didn't hate this piece that much. I mean, yeah, the writer dropped the ball by describing white nationalism as being distinct from - rather than a subset of - white racism, but overall, the piece was attempting to explain an emerging phenomenon, and it wasn't horrible.

Like you and Buttercup, though, I dread the media's inevitable normalization of Trump.

It's something I and the rest of America has collectively failed on.

I, too, feel a sense of personal responsibility.

Regarding 4,5: Yet another thing that Hitler has in common with the US confederacy.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:08 AM
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I'd love to see Sherman on US currency. It would make lighting a cigar with a banknote so much cooler.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:09 AM
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A Sojourner Truth/Sherman double bill would be kind of cool.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:10 AM
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13: I don't really understand the psychology of the Lost Cause, but the fact that it was Lost is not exactly hidden. The Union won by cheating in some way, so it doesn't really count. We should do what you say anyway, because fuck the Confederacy, but people can romanticize a lost cause. Think of the way some people romanticize the anarchists in the Spanish Civil War, for example.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:16 AM
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It was great.


Posted by: Opinionated Franco | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:18 AM
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I completely forgot the Grant was on the $50. Maybe I've been handling counterfeit $50s all this time and never noticed.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:19 AM
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Just for completeness sake, I think we should find the guy who is a white nationalist but not a white supremacist. I'd like to hear the argument for why white people suck but should enjoy political and economic dominance.

It's not, theoretically, inconsistent, and I have seen it argued, if not in those precise terms. It's basically a tribalism argument. "It doesn't matter who's superior, it's us vs them."


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:19 AM
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21: It sounds basically like the view of some white coal miners in West Virginia that were interviewed by the NYT after Obama was elected in 2000.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:21 AM
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The last line of 3.2 is the answer to the last line of 3.1. It's not like lots and lots of people don't see the fascist in Trump (she won the popular vote!) but that just about as many people basically think "fascism, fuck yeah" even if they wouldn't put it that way.

In retrospect, "calling out fascism" is a much less important part of forestalling its rise than "making fascism unattractive to as many people as possible."


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:21 AM
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You know who else were lovable losers? Yep.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:21 AM
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Think of the way some people romanticize the anarchists in the Spanish Civil War, for example.

They may have won all the battles, but we had all the good songs.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:23 AM
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I forget if i saw it here or twitter, but someone noted how it's funny that many people telling Clinton supporters to get over it, they lost, are also walking around waving Confederate flags.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:26 AM
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23 gets it. Right now the Nazis are all Brad Pitt-look-alike martyrs for a lost cause. We need to emphasize that Nazism was for Losers, with a capital L.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:29 AM
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21

There's also the ethnically homogeneous nation-state argument which boils down to "you have your own country in Africa/Asia/South America." That gets real awkward though, when you start thinking at all about American history.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:32 AM
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The military installations we had fifty years ago, many of which have been closed, mostly dated from the world wars. They were specifically named for local military figures, local to that state or locality. There are plenty of posts named for the Union leaders, but they were in the North. And that meant that they were often less useful for training in the long run because of weather, and the land was often more valuable sooner because of earlier and greater urbanization and industrialization in the North.

The whole basis of the naming was to bind the nation together, and ask everyone to be proud of their particular region's military past. They would not have thought it in the least absurd that this meant honoring the leaders of both sides in a conflict. Not a bug, a feature.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:32 AM
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Like Fort Dix, named after General Dix.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:37 AM
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I remember when this was satire.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:39 AM
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It turns out that everything we thought was satire was actually prophecy.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 12:14 PM
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They would not have thought it in the least absurd that this meant honoring the leaders of both sides in a conflict. Not a bug, a feature.

Well, right. But it was a feature because the people who made those decisions thought that national unity by catering to the feelings of Southerners who were Confederate loyalists was more important than the kind of national unity you could get by catering to the feelings of Southerners who felt themselves opposed to the Confederacy.

A deliberate decision, but I'd call it a bad one.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 12:16 PM
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To be scrupulously fair, most media depictions of American white supremacists/nationalists/Nazis press hard on the "toothless, inbred dupes" button, not the "glamorously evil, like vampires except blond" lever.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 12:25 PM
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26: I wouldn't tell Clinton partisans to get over it, but "face up to it" is advice that I think a lot of people need to hear. Over at another site I just saw someone pathetically bleating "WE ACTUALLY WON!" (yes, in all caps).

Full blown denial is not really a viable way forward.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 12:27 PM
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It works for when you clip somebody's mirror while driving on a narrow street.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 12:30 PM
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36: I did that when I was driving the moving truck on the day I moved into my house.

Not the denial part. I admitted it after the guy whose car it was chased me down.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 12:36 PM
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35.1 Would that other site be LGM?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 12:41 PM
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38: Yes.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 12:59 PM
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Before the Democratic party goes full Ed Milliband labor, it is worth keeping in mind that we didn't lose by much. Just because Trump is uniquely awful doesn't mean that the Democrats are uniquely unelectable.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 1:00 PM
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Anyway, I didn't mean to derail the thread. I agree that watching the NYT and other outlets apply lipstick to the white supremacy pig for the next 4 years is going to be nauseating.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 1:01 PM
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I'm not sure there really is a lesson for the Democrats to learn from the election. It was a narrow loss -- the Comey letter could have been enough to swing it. Clinton was not particularly charismatic, and was perhaps unusually vulnerable to fake scandal. The Democrats were in a position to be blamed for 6 years of Republican obstruction.

The real lesson here is for the Republicans. They thought they had to follow the Lee Atwater idea of racist dog whistles rather than racism, and it turns out they've been votes on the table for years.

Plus, what lessons did 2004 have for the Democrats in 2008? I would say: none, basically.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 1:09 PM
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42.3: Wasn't 2008 the year of the 50 state strategy?


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 1:13 PM
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Plus, what lessons did 2004 have for the Democrats in 2008? I would say: none, basically.

Big lesson from 2004 -- nominate someone that looks less like a sad tree.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 1:14 PM
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It seems like Democrats win when they nominate charismatic people.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 1:19 PM
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45: I'm right!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 1:20 PM
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No wait, here's the comment I meant to link.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 1:21 PM
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Seems like you were right in both comments.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 1:23 PM
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45, 46: Are you saying that the Democrats shouldn't grow so confident as to drift into the "Dukakis-esque competence: It has to work sometime" lane again?


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 1:24 PM
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Maybe I just don't understand charisma, but to me it just seems like charisma is something that you get by winning.

This contradicts 44, but I was just being silly then.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 1:33 PM
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You were so much sillier then, you're more contradictory than that now.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 1:35 PM
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The American people don't like competence. Heck, they hate it. It smacks of condescension. They like people who seem folksy and will accept competence and intelligence as secondary or tertiary characteristics.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 1:36 PM
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Donald Trump is nothing if not folksy. He practically quilted the rocking chair out of old twigs.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 1:40 PM
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Well, whatever they do about the presidency, God forbid that the Democratic Party develop any meaningful strategy whatsoever for having any influence in any other branches of government. As the Republicans have shown, the presidency is really all that matters: once you've got that the rest just falls into place. The only question is Sanders vs. Clinton vs. Obama. To be fair, it's a super hard question!

I have to calm down.

53: Suggestions for "folksy": völkisch, false


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 1:41 PM
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52: Obama didn't seem competent? Obama seemed folksy?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 1:56 PM
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54: Right it's not just the presidency. They've lost both houses of congress and have been losing state houses left and right.

That's why it infuriates me that the "Well, really we didn't do anything wrong. I mean, came close, right?" line seems to be slowly congealing into the conventional wisdom in some quarters.

"Our fundamentals are sound. Our only problem is that we keep losing." Umm...if you keep losing maybe that's a sign that your fundamentals aren't as sound as you think?


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:06 PM
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You were so much sillier then, you're more contradictory than that now.

The Basement Tapes: Vol 94.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:09 PM
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56: But it's because they won the Presidency, which makes every other election a referendum on that Presidency. After 2006, the Democrats were in a similarly dominant position after the Bush administration. By 2010, it was all gone. And was it because the Republicans learned anything? They simply rebranded their same old tired ideas.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:14 PM
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Gerrymandered their same tired old ideas.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:19 PM
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Voter suppressed their same tired old ideas.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:21 PM
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58: sorry, but what's the "it" in "it's because they won the Presidency"?


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:22 PM
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Benghazi'd and private server'd their same tired old ideas.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:22 PM
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They simply rebranded their same old tired ideas.
The Democrats let them.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:23 PM
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The media let them.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:26 PM
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I'm not saying we weren't resting on our laurels, complacent, and need to think long and hard about our new strategy. But I'm also blaming a lot of fucked up shit that is not the DNC's fault.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:27 PM
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61: Took over the lower-level layers of government.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:27 PM
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Absolutely the media has failed to describe the pathology that is Republicanism but that doesn't let the Dems off the hook.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:30 PM
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"Everything is fine. Our problems are merely basic and fundamental."


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:32 PM
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I told you it was a bad idea to let grandparents get facebook accounts. This is what happens.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:39 PM
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WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:39 PM
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Doesn't it feel utterly dispiriting to have the politicians supposedly on your side look at the death cult that is the GOP and refuse to describe it as such, extolling the virtues of compromise? Don't you wonder why Democratic voters keep electing Republicans when they don't return the favor?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:40 PM
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See, this is what happens when I start thinking about politics. I want to claw my brains out.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:42 PM
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The media let them.

Well, its pretty clear that you can't rely on the media to be decent.

Democrats wine about it. Republicans, they had media problems, so they created their own media.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:44 PM
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Well, its pretty clear that you can't rely on the media to be decent.

I know, but I'm pretty steamed up about this.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:45 PM
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It only hurts at first. Once you hit brain tissue there aren't any more pain receptors.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:45 PM
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I told you it was a bad idea to let grandparents get facebook accounts. This is what happens.

No shit. It used to be that old people would just forward crazy email memes. It was a problem, but the reach was limited.

With Facebook, that shit's been weaponized.


Posted by: spike | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:47 PM
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I'm sure there are things that the Democrats can do better, tactically, and I'm pretty skeptical we are going to deduce them from first principles in this comment section. I also find it unlikely that the correct tactical advice exactly coincides with what I would prefer that they do on the merits.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 2:50 PM
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77: If not us, who? If not in this comment section, where?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 3:03 PM
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Ever since I can remember being aware of the regional redistribution of government resources from CA to other states I've felt we still got an acceptable deal, if nothing else many of the best young people from other states ended up here. Kentucky's loss is our gain, etc. But I'm finding it hard right now to not look forward to signing this petition once it hits the streets: http://www.yescalifornia.org/


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 3:04 PM
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Cold dead hand, DQ, cold dead hands.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 3:07 PM
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OT: There are thousands of crows circling outside my office window. That's a good omen, right?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 3:07 PM
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73--Is it even possible for there to be a left-wing version of Fox?

It's like...the Republican movement eventually splintered into racism crazies and tax cut crazies, more or less. But it took decades!

The Democrat version would START OUT Greenwald Democrats vs Coates Democrats...


Posted by: (dammit jim) I'm a lurker | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 3:07 PM
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Kentucky's loss is our gain, etc.

That's why the goal of statewide nerd camp is to keep people in-state. I left for college but came back after, afraid my then-deteriorating health would make it impossible for me to live elsewhere. Now I'll have been at that job 14 years next month and I don't know that I'm anyone's gain.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 3:13 PM
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How have I not closed the browser after 79? Yes, let's ruin California, perfect. I assume there will be some kind of crazy nativist resurgence in Canada within the next few years as well, because how could there not be.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 3:18 PM
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Has this from the New York Times ombudsman been discussed here? I'm not even sure the takedown from MediaMatters does justice to the awfulness of it, but it really provides a window into how these NYT types think.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 3:20 PM
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I'm sure there are things that the Democrats can do better, tactically, and I'm pretty skeptical we are going to deduce them from first principles in this comment section. I also find it unlikely that the correct tactical advice exactly coincides with what I would prefer that they do on the merits.
Democratic tactics have given us a government of evil clowns. Maybe it's time to give merit a try?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 3:21 PM
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56, 66: Right, our stupid system is set up to create divided gov't, so when you hold the Presidency, the other offices start to slip away. I mean, Christ, FDR was hardly cold before the country gave the Republicans the House--Democrats saved the country, twice, in 14 years, while the Republicans did everything possible, including supporting the literal Adolph Fucking Hitler, and Americans shrugged and thought, "Hmm, time to vote in the guys who've been wrong all this time." There are exceptions, but damn few.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 3:24 PM
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I don't know that I'm anyone's gain.

Ours.


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 3:36 PM
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86: But whose merits? How do you know that your preferred policies wouldn't get killed at the ballot box? I've yet to see anyone win on my preferred policies, ever, for any office. Maybe Berkeley City Council.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 3:36 PM
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I am not saying secession is the best, a good or even an acceptable answer! I am horrified to have this reaction! Comment meant as reflection re how horrific our trajectory has become. Please note all comments by phone and am crappy phone typer.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 3:41 PM
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No way, DQ. Own it. I've wanted Pacifica to secede forever, and would consider it a great outcome of this election. I feel no loyalty to America and I'm tired of America dragging us down.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 3:47 PM
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Also if merkel can pull off reelection next year the odds my kid goes to uni in Germany skyrocket and that makes me, proud product of ucb, sad. It's one thing if he chooses Germany from a position of US, UK and GER unis all good choices, but entirely different if he's choosing based on which country he thinks has repudiated liberal democracy *less*.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 3:47 PM
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Fuck the California secession idea. It's fucking bullshit deserving only ridicule.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 4:10 PM
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90: Fair enough. I'm deep in the sloughs of misanthropy and bitterness today. I feel very constrained: any money I spend or things I do for my own private happiness are now at the expense of the country's political welfare. Settling on "might as well have fun because I'm powerless anyway" seems temporarily poisoned, as a philosophy. That's how the mourning process is going for me, today; that's all.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 4:11 PM
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I'm good with a California exit, because I'd like to see the northeast get out too.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 4:16 PM
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I'm just trying to model our new era of don't bother using facts in arguments.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 4:26 PM
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Right? I'm not stingy about it. When we go, the other regions should leave if they want.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 4:27 PM
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86, 89: If the members of the foundering Western Establishment -- those exponents of "meritocracy" -- want to regain democratic credibility, they need to actually be credible. I mean, sure, the Trump phenomenon is the result of a lot of things, but the universal failure of Western merito-crats is one important factor.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 4:40 PM
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Further to 98: I mean, do I now have to root for Angela Merkel? I suppose I do, but she is high on the list of people responsible for the current fucked-up state of things.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 4:54 PM
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91: how many millions of immigrants from America are you willing to accept?


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 4:58 PM
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NB: we have no feasible way to bring water with us.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 4:59 PM
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I am counting on California to keep pot available, hopes and dreams alive. Fight the power!

Secede!! Enraged feminists can simply swarm the military bases and ports and expropriate the equipment. They won't shoot at you. Then Cali is the world's third economy with their own nukes and the best pot.

Gonna have to exile Kanye and the Kardashians.

Dogs and I can be the foundation of a Lincoln Brigade

Reading the Bishop Big Sort. Essential.

Thinking about urban/rural and the meaning of land, of territory. So many wars lost by those who captured the castle and thought they won. Remembering all those shots of stricken Napoleon escaping Moscow.

Numbers don't mean shit in war until you apply them.
Electoral college bullshit is like a general claiming he should win Normandy because he has troops back in Georgia.

Cali has the numbers, the application is secession, followed of course by being the base camp for insurgency. Bring the war to where the left has advantage. Show the scared you will fight.

Secede!!


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 5:03 PM
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Oh and fuck the petition or referenda etc. The fascists are not going to let you vote to secede. And don't worry about water, Cali won't be selling produce for a generation.

Go John Brown on their ass, and do it fast. To the armory.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 5:14 PM
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One thing to remember is that the upper Midwest, Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania are now as permanently lost to Democrats as Mississippi Alabama Louisiana. As we saw with Walker, Kasich, and Pence Republicans know how to consolidate power and drive dissenters away, and do not mind being top dog in smaller poorer kennels.

The Democrats will never control Congress or the Presidency again.

This is what Obama and the Clintons have done, and they have been well rewarded.

Don't think you can wait til you smell the ovens.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 5:28 PM
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Wait I skipped the thread but have we agreed that Nazis are sexy now too? I was... not in that meeting.


Posted by: Clytie | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 5:31 PM
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California is going to be under siege in many ways but secession is basically giving up, even setting aside practicality issues.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 5:45 PM
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Giving up something I never wanted? The rest of the country is not my project. If being part of America were neutral, I'd be all, whatever, fine. But since the rest of the country is both expensive for us and imposes shitty policies on us, I want out. I've never had any loyalty or curiosity about the rest of the country that couldn't be satisfied with a week-long visit.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 5:54 PM
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Take two weeks. You probably get a nice vacation period in your county.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 5:58 PM
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I've never had any loyalty or curiosity about the rest of the country that couldn't be satisfied with a week-long visit.

And yet, you had very strong opinions about how the rest of the country was going to vote. (I apologize for prodding a sore subject, I just thought that the combination of the two conversations was notable).


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 5:59 PM
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News from Wisconsin. "The judicial panel said the map-drawing was biased against Democrats. It noted that in 2012, Democrats received 51.4 percent of the statewide vote and won 39 seats in the legislative assembly. Republicans won 52 percent in 2014, and that translated into 63 seats."

It worked very, very well. Apparently this stuff is not hard. I suspect the SC will uphold the map.

I followed an unnerving vote-auditing hashtag for a few minutes on Twitter, then closed the tab because mind games are bad.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 6:00 PM
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And I meant 104.

The Big Sort is essential reading.

Unless you can imagine a scenario in which Californians, New Yorkers, etc move back or to the Upper Midwest in the hundreds of thousands the Republicans know exactly how to keep the Rust Belt permanently red now that it has flipped. Texas is majority-minority and like much of the South Repubs let minorities carve out little fiefdoms like gay Houston and black Jackson Miss where the Democrats in those states aggregate and dilute by concentration their numbers.

Politics is over. War has begun.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 6:01 PM
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Nazis and Confederates lost. USA won. That's the most dangerous part.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 6:12 PM
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Co-sign 88.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 6:13 PM
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Yeah, I was supposed to go out to CA to get my education and acculturation, then fight with other academic migrants to get shipped back to a red state college or university, but because I am too haughty to fight I stayed in the golden city and give the landlord my direct-deposited paychecks monthly. It's not even war, bob, so your psy ops credentials may or may not be legit. (But then, "war" these days is a bit of a... moving... target in general.)

They did specifically target the universities in WI, though, as I hope you are aware? I think Walker got a kick out of it; he was a dropout. Higher ed matters more than people credit.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 6:13 PM
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This weekend's opening day hunting trip was very odd. I ended up at a cabin with some Trump-voting gay men. And some libertarian-voting men. Unfortunately, they didn't say anything interesting about their support and just quoted the least thoughtful and most simplistic arguments (well, he's not really going to do that. But he doesn't mean you. They're both horrible. Blah blah blah). I have claimed to be a socialist because I'm tired of this weird indolence (autocorrect but I like it) that we can all just make our way without relying on others (nationally to individually). Also apparently I made my host angry by scoffing at Trump. I am also embracing the opposite of being an understanding, consolatory liberal. Although I did my bit by patiently explaining privilege to a young man mad his black friend didn't absolve him for being racist.


Posted by: hydrobatidae | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 6:14 PM
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We didn't even get any deer.


Posted by: hydrobatidae | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 6:16 PM
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That's a good question to ask: how many districts can the Republicans control with unfettered gerrymandering? With voter suppression?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 6:16 PM
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Further 112. Secession should be thought about. It might turn out to be the only way to save the world from America. My major lesson from this year is that the unthinkable is in fact thinkable. Everything is worth thinking about.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 6:17 PM
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First they came for...well, me maybe. All the above is just joking, Jeff.

How many Californians can Sessions pick up on "conspiracy to distribute marijuana?"

See, before the deportations and raids on Sanctuary Cities, and what comes after that, Sessions will attempt to utterly demoralize the resistance. Californians will watch their neighbors get sent to spanking new Fed Pens, which are very very profitable, and after they just stand and watch the stoners get their lives destroyed they won't even watch the next step. They'll hide, already shamed.

Then they came for the trade unionists


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 6:22 PM
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I am also embracing the opposite of being an understanding, consolatory liberal.

Yeah, fuck political correctness. I no longer feel any obligation to be tactful around the troglodytes.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 6:31 PM
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118: We need to start calling it "Calexit."


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 6:33 PM
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"Gov Brown, did you not realize what you were signing was a violation of Federal Law, a felony?"

"Your honor, I knew, but it was an unjust law, the numbers were too large, and I didn't think it would be enforced"

"So you consciously with forethought aided abetted and empowered the mass violation of Federal Law?"

"Yeah, I guess so."

"Twenty years, no parole."


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 6:38 PM
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They did specifically target the universities in WI, though, as I hope you are aware?

Same playbook in North Carolina. Maybe also Michigan?


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 6:40 PM
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I mean, here's the thing about secession. All things being equal I would prefer to 50 State America as compared to not, but when some of those states have been taken over by shitheads, and those shitheads are more than happy to undermine the principals of democracy itself if it gets a few votes on the margin and thats allowed them to game the rules by which we operate our republic to the point where we wind up with, holy shit, You Know Who in office even though about two million fewer people voted for him than for the other candidate, and now he's going to rob everybody blind and put people like fucking Jeff Sessions in charge of running important sections of the Federal Government, and the New York Times is writing about white nationalism like its just one more thing that white people like, well, fuck that. I want out.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 6:52 PM
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All things being equal I would prefer to 50 State America as compared to not
Second this, just to be clear.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 7:14 PM
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And maybe Cali can somehow get away with their pot laws, but I might suggest that the enabling interpretation of interstate commerce precedent will make the Federalist assholes cum in their pants.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 8:00 PM
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All things be equal, I'd prefer the US and Canada to be one country (possibly minus Quebec and Texas).


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 8:01 PM
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You johnny-come-lately secessionists. Up here we've had an active secessionist party for decades. They're less influential than they used to be, but they still run candidates and stuff.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 8:26 PM
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I seem to remember a minor Palin scandal about Todd being registered in the Alaska Independence Party.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 8:38 PM
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They used to be a really big deal. They won the governorship once.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 8:40 PM
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They still run candidates for some things, but it's usually perennial gadfly candidates running on platforms like getting the fluoride out the water.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 8:41 PM
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I'm thinking of starting a pro-fluoride party.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 9:12 PM
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132: I'll join. Can be the pro fluoride pro vaccine party?


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 9:13 PM
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132: A stalking horse for your dream of Greater Maryland?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 9:21 PM
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No fluoride for Delaware, I'll tell you that much.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 9:27 PM
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127 is the answer to 118: the world gets saved from the US by the US annexing Canada. 11 new states.

Do our Canadian friends want to save the world or not?


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 10:03 PM
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We'll even let you put ketchup on the potato chips!


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 10:12 PM
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136: CAnschluss?


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 10:20 PM
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124: and the New York Times is writing about white nationalism like its just one more thing that white people like -- I missed this the first time! Le mot juste.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 10:41 PM
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Texit


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:31 PM
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Quebexit


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:31 PM
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121: Start? That was trending on Twitter 11/9.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 11-21-16 11:32 PM
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Quebec would never agree to join the United States. Well, neither would the rest of Canada, but especially Quebec.

(The entire country of Canuckistan has the population of NY plus NJ plus CT).


Posted by: Just Plain Jane | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 4:34 AM
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What they lack in numbers they make up in ferocity.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 6:44 AM
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||

Professor Watchlist from Turning Point USA linked at Naked Capitalism

Kotsko and Loomis are on it, but not Corey Robin. I recognize other names like Zillah Eisenstein.

It may be useful as bibliography.

I get irrationally infuriated by people who order long lists of people by their fucking first names. It enrages me.

|>


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 6:47 AM
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Plus, they alphabetized "The Ohio State University" under 'T'. I guess you could say Ohio State asked for that.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 6:49 AM
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I think I should submit Professor Richard Hertz.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 6:55 AM
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CAnschluss>>>>Calexit.

Both as a portmanteau and as an idea.

(The entire country of Canuckistan has the population of NY plus NJ plus CT).

And yet, thanks to our perfect system handed down by gods in wigs, you'd get 16 more Senators than those three states combined. And probably additional EC votes on top of that.

Well, neither would the rest of Canada

What if we start by letting Justin Trudeau be President? Sort of the 1707 Union plan?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 6:56 AM
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146 is great.

For the record, I've watched professors. They're really not that interesting. No offense.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 6:57 AM
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I agree with 143; if they won't save the world, then who will? Apparently no one.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 8:17 AM
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PEI is much smaller than all US States which could cause a problem, but Newfoundland is only slightly smaller than Wyoming and all the others are clearly big enough to be states.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 8:22 AM
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Texas threatens secession all the time when federal elections don't go their way.
when some of those states have been taken over by shitheads
Which reminds me, I've been meaning to shout out a WTF to Apo about how a party can hand an election to one of their members regardless of the whole who-got-more-votes thing.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 8:25 AM
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Make PEI a territory; the Puerto Rico of the north!


Posted by: (dammit jim) I'm a lurker | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 8:47 AM
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"Potato Rico!"


Posted by: dj lurker | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 8:48 AM
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An unintentionally unsettling observation from
http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/02/american-presidents-washington-lincoln.html.

This is a blogger who decided to do a series of potted biographies of every president. In his intro, he discusses why he's doing the series in three blocks, and remarks:
In deciding where to start, I looked at the whole line of presidents, and it turns out the story of the United States divides cleanly into three even parts, each 75 years long.

1789-1864: Washington to Lincoln, "Shaping the Nation Era".
1864-1939: Lincoln to FDR, "Rise to Power Era".
1939-2014: FDR to Obama, "World Leader Era".

He wrote this a couple of years ago, obviously, so didn't speculate about what the next era is going to be. (Kali Yuga?)


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 9:01 AM
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Maybe PEI could merge with the Turks and Caicos.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 9:01 AM
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The next era is called "The Fire's Turn"


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 9:03 AM
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Anybody who's still around in 2075 will know what it's called.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 9:28 AM
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2089


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 9:29 AM
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I might make it to 104 years old, but 118 seems unlikely.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 9:31 AM
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"Grab 'Em By The Pussy Era"


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 9:46 AM
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Which reminds me, I've been meaning to shout out a WTF to Apo about how a party can hand an election to one of their members regardless of the whole who-got-more-votes thing.

Yes, seriously, this. WTF, apo?! This is an embarrassment.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 10:34 AM
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What did Apo do? Do we a have a Papen in our very midst?


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 10:39 AM
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And yet, thanks to our perfect system handed down by gods in wigs, you'd get 16 more Senators than those three states combined.

So PEI, with a population of about 140,000 people, would get 2 Senators?! Reconsidering...


Posted by: Just Plain Jane | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 9:05 PM
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And you get to save humanity.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 9:16 PM
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(I'm presuming statehood for PEI would be part of the deal. Trump is uniquely placed to make this deal. Merger with Canada makes repudiating nafta a much easier go.)


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 9:21 PM
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Trump is uniquely placed to make this deal.

I'm trying to imagine a gaudy and glitzy Trump hotel in the staid and sedate little city of Charlottetown. Nope, just can't picture it. Call it a failure of imagination on my part.


Posted by: Just Plain Jane | Link to this comment | 11-22-16 9:44 PM
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Maybe he'll build a golf course there. The latest from his Scottish golf course fiasco: he has tried to bribe Nigel Farage to use his influence to get a few wind generators demolished because they are spoiling the view from Turnberry. This is really quite remarkably ignorant, because not only has Farage got no actual political role in Westminster, let alone Holyrood, he has not AFAIK even set foot in Scotland in two years, because last time he tried the riot police had to turn up to extract him from an angry mob in a pub on the Royal Mile.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11-23-16 3:23 AM
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164. Any realistic treaty of anschluss between Canada and the US would probably also need to give statehood to at least Nunavut (pop. 30,000; 2 Senators and a Representative) and some sort of representation to NWT and Yukon.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 11-23-16 5:33 AM
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My greatest moment on the stage was saying "anschluss" semi-correctly while playing a Nazi in The Sound of Music.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-23-16 5:43 AM
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Reading up on 168 made for a great start to the day. Thanks for spreading joy!


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 11-23-16 6:14 AM
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My pleasure. Which bit: the golf course fiasco, or the Farage riot?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11-23-16 6:22 AM
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The documentary "You've Been Trumped" should have been watched by every voter (or watched now in anticipation).

About the golf course.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-23-16 7:09 AM
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Farage riot, I already knew about the golf course. The riot predates when I started paying attention to Scottish politics.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 11-23-16 7:29 AM
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We're probably all going nto get wished into the cornfield in the end.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-23-16 7:44 AM
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Only Trump could go to Canada. All other passports will be revoked.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 11-23-16 11:54 AM
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Any realistic treaty of anschluss between Canada and the US would probably also need to give statehood to at least Nunavut (pop. 30,000; 2 Senators and a Representative) and some sort of representation to NWT and Yukon.

Why would they be treated differently? They all have about the same population and currently have equivalent status within Canada AFAIK.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-23-16 1:06 PM
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