Re: Guest Post - TNC

1

I think your change-back theory explains why, of all the shit happening in the world today, the whole thing with football players not standing during the national anthem is the one that most gnawed at the usual suspects on my Facebook.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 7:55 AM
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Anyway, I have a theory that white people with less education and/or social status are now the functional equivalent of toddlers for all political purposes. If you aren't willing to use lots and lots of praise for every small thing you want to encourage, you can figure on a huge melt down.

(Yes, this is classist. I don't care.)


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:16 AM
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Out of context, "I'm a big believer in chaos" and "I'm a big believer in chaos theory" have radically different semantics (even before you get to arguing whether the second one is correct). They shouldn't have used that as the headline.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:17 AM
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In my moderately educated view, the President's biggest mistake has been failing to design programs like ARRA and ACA so that Americans got a loud-and-clear message they were benefiting from a shift in federal policy; I am reasonably persuaded that had he done so, some people (and as we know the election turned on a very small number of people, in the tens of thousands) would not have voted for Trump to kill ACA in ignorance that they themselves were beneficiaries of ACA.

This is a much smaller-scale thought than how gravity affects the weight of history, I grant.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:20 AM
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4: Did you read the Vox article about ACA recipients in Kentucky who voted for Trump? Not that it is, on its own, persuasive evidence against your position, but the people interviewed all knew that what they had was Obamacare but refused to believe that Trump and the Republicans would kill it.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:23 AM
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Yes, I did. But, you know, not a scientific survey and also, Kentucky wasn't one of the critical states.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:26 AM
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Somebody should study whether assholes in Kentucky are functionally different from assholes in Pennsylvania and Ohio. I sort of doubt it, but really never spent very much time in Kentucky.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:29 AM
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Sure.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:29 AM
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Certainly lots of Ohio redneckhood is directly transplanted from Kentucky. The joke was they learned "reading, 'riting, and route 23."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:30 AM
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Successful social change can have very little pushback. Gay people can get married now and there is pretty much no facebook pushback on this.

The pushback comes when people feel implicated or judged and there is no solid fallback position. America is a racist country but there is pretty much no policy X that can be adopted to make America not be a racist country so there is pushback.


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:31 AM
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Are we now allowed to approvingly cite Vox articles? I thought we all agreed it was the worst?


Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:31 AM
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We contain multitudes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:33 AM
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10.1: I'm not sure that's right. I haven't seen much of it on Facebook, but then I've hidden lots of people. And there is a very large movement to pushback under the name of "religious freedom."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:36 AM
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11: It wasn't an explainer! It was primarily actual reporting!


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:39 AM
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10: the pushback was DOMA and all the statewide extra-really-can't get married legislation in the 90s. People fretting about Cub Scout leaders and AIDS. The gay rights movement basically just outlasted the pushback, but now it's targeted at transpeople.


Posted by: Heebie | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:40 AM
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"10.1: I'm not sure that's right. I haven't seen much of it on Facebook, but then I've hidden lots of people. And there is a very large movement to pushback under the name of "religious freedom.""

There is always going to be somebody, but it is nothing like the Colin Kaepernick hate. And, it is a policy that California voted down/ most dems opposed until less than 10 years ago.

Dakota Access pipeline protests are another thing that doesn't get pushback. If the protest wins then most people on the right can just accept the loss or just not care.


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:45 AM
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Wait re. 3 where is the difference between chaos and chaos theory an issue? Am I missing a reference to chaos theory or is it just that "I believe in chaos" is like saying "I believe in rocks," like obviously it EXISTS? I know what TNC means with that phrase though, and largely agree.


Posted by: Clytie | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:47 AM
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As far as I can tell, the Dakota Access pipeline protests are fucking brilliant as far as an issue goes. Not only do they not get pushback from conservative people I know on Facebook, they get support.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:47 AM
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16: I agree it's nothing like Colin Kaepernick hate. I think the difference is that there are now enough out gay people that nobody can put up something anti-gay on Facebook without having somebody jump down their throat. That is, even if they don't have anybody can in their friends, they have somebody who has a close family member or friend who is gay.

But I very much doubt everybody has changed their mind on gay marriage. I think it just can't appear on Facebook.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:53 AM
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Not that getting everybody to shut up isn't real progress.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:54 AM
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I've seen some DAPL pushback, but way less than 'now we can say Merry Christmas' which, imo, marks anyone as a straight-up moron.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:55 AM
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Oh for fuck's sake yes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:56 AM
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"If the commercialization of Jesus's birth isn't completed at every coffee shop in America, it's an attack on religion."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 8:57 AM
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And now I can't tell people "Merry Christmas" without coming off as an asshole. It's remarkable how many things Trump can fuck up.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 9:03 AM
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24: What are you talking about? He invented the phrase!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 9:08 AM
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17: I meant, "I believe in chaos" out of context--as it is in a headline--sounds like something a Machiavellian dipshit (or Silicon Valley executive, but I repeat myself) would say. I initially interpreted as "I think breaking things for the sake of breaking things is good and useful," not what he probably actually meant, "I think small changes in initial conditions can have large effects."


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 9:08 AM
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It really is amazing how people can turn saying "Merry Christmas" into an act of aggression, but they did.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 9:10 AM
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What are the chances we hear much about this actual attack on Christmas?


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 9:11 AM
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The other day, an appliance repairman corrected me when I thanked him for fixing the fridge and then wished him "Happy Holidays." "It's always Merry Christmas for me," he replied. The smirk on his face told me he was a Trumpster.


Posted by: Just Plain Jane | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 9:12 AM
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"Fine. Then have a shitty New Year."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 9:15 AM
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I guess it's unfair to assume they're all morons. Some are assholes.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 9:16 AM
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In New Jersey how can you tell?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 9:22 AM
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I really like changeback! It has a lot of explanatory power.

Co-sign 19 and 20 as well.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 9:43 AM
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34

Hanukkah is more fun with the "light a candle, take a shot" rule.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 9:44 AM
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I like Heebie's "changeback!" theory of politics.

I also think 1 is correct that the way in which it differs from a theory of "backlash" is that it predicts a response based not on the magnitude of change, but on the degree to which the change requires acknowledgement that the previous status quo wasn't working for people.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 9:46 AM
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Which rule I just invented. You're welcome, Jewish people.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 9:46 AM
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I realize I don't use any general, public seasonal greeting at all. To people I know, Christmas, Hanukkah, or HH depending on who they are.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 9:51 AM
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The Kaepernick situation is being used in fake ads. Atrios had a mobile ad that kept coming up that said, "Keapernick's suspension may last forever!" Since he was at no point actually suspended I was kind of curious what this was about. Turns out it's an ad for pseudo-scientific muscle growth supplements, claiming that maybe Kaepernick would be suspended under suspicion of using them as a banned substance and don't you want to buy some so you can look like him?
I guess I fell for it but maybe I made 10 cents for Duncan so hooray.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 9:52 AM
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Feliz navidad, prospero año, y felicidad.
Fuck you, speak English!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 9:55 AM
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I wish people "Happy Chanukah" or "Happy Hanukkah" based on whether or not they speak modern Hebrew.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 9:56 AM
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10

Isn't there a move by Republicans to get rid of a national right to gay marriage (presumably via a shiny new SC justice)? Hardly qualifies as "no pushback."


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 10:05 AM
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shiny

They self-identify as "white".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 10:06 AM
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I often say "Merry Christmas" so people will know that I'm not uptight about it, but sometimes I may be incorrectly assuming that they know/remember that I'm Jewish, and so they wind up thinking I'm an asshole and/or stupid.

Well......not like they would be completely wrong...


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 10:10 AM
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I actually don't think I've ever initiated saying any of the above. If people wish me something I'll usually say, "You too," although sometimes I'll say back whatever they said to me.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 10:12 AM
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Maybe we could compromise: "Merry Holidays, and if you can't tell that Christmas is a holiday, from fucking 'holy day,' which is what you debatably believe it is, fuck off. I hope you choke on your own nog."


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 10:13 AM
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"I hope you choke on your own nog"
Kids in high school always said you had to have a double-jointed back for that to be possible.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 10:19 AM
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I like changeback. I keep thinking of it as an extinction burst, myself, when I manage optimism on the topic. Maybe it's geographical moves or my personal bubble, but I think that there's been clear movement on what kind of behavior is unaccetable on race and gender issues (microaggressions: because we have prety much agreed that macroaggressions are wrong and can focus on subtler wrongs).

Every now and then, I run into some 90s nostalgia, for which I am a total sucker. Partway through, I realize that there's some jarring sexism or racism that would be well over the border or acceptable today. Then, these fuckers got an opening for pushback, so they are running around going full Nazi/KKK because they sense that it's their last hurrah before the PC police come and take away the first amendment or whatever the hell they think happens when you spout assholish things.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 10:20 AM
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"I follow the wisdom of the Pilgrims- I don't do Christmas."


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 10:21 AM
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Not doing Christmas for Christians makes me think of Jehovah's Witnesses, not pilgrims.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 10:24 AM
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46: In the American Christian tradition, it's only done while wearing a pair of wetsuits.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 10:27 AM
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Witnesses don't do it either, but 17th century Puritans were pretty hard on the subject. When they took power in England they abolished Christmas by law.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 10:30 AM
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52

They were both opposed to fun.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 10:31 AM
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53

"And a bloody Saturnalia to you!"


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 10:33 AM
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52: oh, come on, smashing a hole through a stained glass window is tremendous fun.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 10:45 AM
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To people I know, Christmas, Hanukkah, or HH depending on who they are.

While that's very inclusive, I don't offer greetings to NeoNazis at all.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 10:46 AM
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Ooh, I love Harriet Lerner. I've got to go read her again. I've had the unsettling "change back" feeling toward people I care about who are starting to do better for themselves. Her theories helped me to understand and keep a lid on that anxious impulse.


Posted by: Penny | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 10:56 AM
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I was actually wondering what the "HH" was if not "Happy Chanukah".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 11:28 AM
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I meant "Happy Holidays," once so anodyne that I actually hear it in Andy Williams' voice. He was once anodyne too, but was a bit of a right-wing icon by the time of his death.

I don't know the details, and someone may have written it up, but I'm guessing his initial appeal to the Branson crowd was basically nostalgia, but after going there, performing nightly at his club and having a lot of success, he naturally went native.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 12:17 PM
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47 - I decided to watch Eddie Murphy Raw because it was free on some streaming service or another and didn't last ten minutes what with the insanely godawful homophobic jokes.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 12:20 PM
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I always had trouble understanding why Paul Lynde was famous, but I bet children born today will be really confused.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 12:26 PM
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My daughter claims that as she drives to work in the pre-dawn darkness, she sings: "It's the least wonderful time of the year!"


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 12:31 PM
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58.1: I suppose I should have guessed that, but I was thinking of it as things you say instead "Happy Holiday."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 12:36 PM
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While that's very inclusive, I don't offer greetings to NeoNazis at all.

We'll all have to make some adjustments now that we live in Trump's America.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 12:38 PM
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34 to 63.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 12:43 PM
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I've been noticing people saying "happy New Year" as an end-run around happy holidays. You could really pick any holiday, it'll be that holiday eventually. Happy Thanksgiving 2023!


Posted by: Clytie | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 12:44 PM
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60: No. He's the voice of Templeton, the rat!

I suppose it's possible that children born today won't have same obsessions as my stepdaughter.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 12:49 PM
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"Happy Pearl Harbor Day" wen over poorly a few weeks ago.


Posted by: Blank Stare | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 12:49 PM
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Secular Russian immigrants in my neighborhood, mostly of Jewish origin but not religious in any way, celebrate the new year for the Holidays, with elves and gifts and winter scenes, like they did in the Soviet Union.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 12:50 PM
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59: I remember finding that one pretty much unwatchable at the time. It's possible I was prematurely anti-homophobic.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 12:50 PM
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Children born today won't mix up Shaq and Sinbad.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 12:51 PM
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C'Novom Godom is how they say it.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 12:51 PM
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68: Do they call the New Year "Sylvester"?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 12:52 PM
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The Templeton the Rat county fair dream ballet is my final form.


Posted by: Clytie | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 12:52 PM
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When people wish me a happy birthday, I respond, "And a happy Nagasaki day to you." This is why I have no friends IRL.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 12:56 PM
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74: I should start saying "Merry Michaelmas!" in that situation.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 1:22 PM
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75: Teo's Birthday (Observed) is the official closing of the second financial quarter, and a bank holiday.

I could say "And a happy* Twelfth to you as well!" but I doubt that would be appreciated in all company.

*But not a Glorious Twelfth, confusingly.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 1:44 PM
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As to Lynde, google New Faces of 1952 I'd never heard of it either, but my wife's family had the album, and a whole generation followed everything the performers did thereafter. The original cast of SNL is the closest analogy I can think of.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 2:32 PM
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The last Christmas card I saw for a distant relative I don't miss was early in the Obama administration and started with how it's still Merry Christmas because this is America right?


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 3:36 PM
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I became aware, through my work and through my relatives, not distant, that the election of Obama caused distress that exactly mirrored what many of us, of people we know have experienced and expressed the last month.

I think a lot of people I know were not aware, or wouldn't have cared if they were.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 4:06 PM
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distress that exactly mirrored

I really want to contest this. Not everything is relative, and there are important qualities of distress beyond how intense it is. 'Our' distress at the election of Donald Trump comes from good evidence that he is an incompetent without any grasp of the information he needs to do his job, as well as being seriously uninterested in or opposed to the wellbeing of large groups of the people of America (I'm generalizing broadly, but I, or anyone else here, could come up with plenty of specifics about what's distressing about Trump's election).

The election of Obama didn't cause distress that exactly mirrored that distress unless it was equally solidly founded. And while I'll listen to an argument that it was, I'm not expecting to hear anything that convinces me.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 4:26 PM
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Mirrored how intense it was, how many felt their country had turned a terrible corner, and there would be no going back. And therefore that there must be something illegitimate about it.

Of course I didn't share these views, but was taken aback by them, and by how near to me they were.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 4:36 PM
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And therefore that there must be something illegitimate about it.

Like pizza shops with child sex slaves. Which, I suspect, is the Change Back again legalized gay marriage. That is, they were willing to give way about homosexuality, but not the idea that liberals are sexually perverse. If gay isn't perverse anymore, they must be pedophiles.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 4:53 PM
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Wholehearted agreement with 80. When I have had the opportunity to talk individually with people who hated and feared Obama over the past eight years, their fear seemed to boil down to one of the following: He will raise taxes on my small business; or, he will "get back" at us by doing what white people have traditionally done to black people.

But even in the latter case, it was mostly incoherent fears about being treated unfairly; I did not hear people who had immediate, everyday fear for their personal safety. I'm not saying those people don't exist, and I'm not saying they would have told me the truth if they did, but it is a very stark difference to me. I have friends and family who are genuinely already in greater danger because of Trump. I don't think that is an exaggeration and I don't think they are wrong, even if not all of the things they (and I) fear are going to come to pass.

And as long as we're talking about Templeton, I will warmly endorse Some Writer!, for those of you who have 6-15 year-olds in your lives who love E.B. White.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 5:05 PM
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Honestly, I don't much care for spiders interfering with my supply of ham.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 5:37 PM
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I also thought the Giving Tree was a horrible, passive-aggressive shit.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 5:39 PM
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Also, couldn't the Ghost of Christmas Future been just a bit subtle when dealing with Scrooge?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 5:45 PM
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Also lacking in teh subtle, Roald Dahl villains.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 5:50 PM
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Also, some shit remade "Elf" in Claymation and made that nerdy-guy from that one show the titular elf.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 6:10 PM
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That's all. For now.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-21-16 6:13 PM
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74: so your birthday is 3 days after mine, huh? And something like 40 years earlier, but, you know, on the calendar.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 12-22-16 8:37 AM
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85

Not to mention "Those Who Walk Away from Omelas."


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 12-22-16 8:57 AM
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I'm reading one of the transcripts of Ta-Nehisi Coates' conversation with Obama, and this is an interesting exchange, talking broadly about the idea of reparations (emphasis mine)

Obama:Now, you as a thinker, you as a writer, you as a philosopher, you want to stretch the boundaries of thinking, because you're not constrained by trying to move the levers of power right now. And so I think that these are all worthy topics of conversation. Sometimes I wonder how much of these debates have to do with the desire, the legitimate desire, for that history to be recognized. Because there is a psychic power to the recognition that is not satisfied with a universal program, it's not satisfied by the Affordable Care Act, or an expansion of Pell grants, or an expansion of the earned-income tax credit. It doesn't speak to the hurt, and the sense of injustice, and the self-doubt that arises out of the fact that we're behind now, and it makes us sometimes feel as if there must be something wrong with us, unless you're able to see the history and say, "It's amazing we got this far given what we went through." So part of, I think, the argument sometimes that I've had with folks who are much more interested in sort of race-specific programs is less an argument about what is practically achievable and sometimes maybe more an argument of "We want society to see what's happened, and internalize it, and answer it in demonstrable ways."

Coates: You know, Mr. President, I think largely what a lot of us fear, everything you described--Pell grants, health care, all the programs--that's the world--let me speak for myself, not for anybody--that's a world I'd want to live in whether black or not. That just speaks to society's commitment to its citizens. What we fear is that the gap will never close. Or let me rephrase that: The gap will close, but it will never actually be equal. There will always be carrying this. That without some sort of specific acknowledgment--you know, when I was working on this piece about race, the theory--fine. Going to a 90-year-old's house in Lawndale in Chicago, and I'm not supposing you don't have more experience with this, because you read letters and travel and you see, but as a journalist to sit there and see somebody who fought in World War II, and to hear him talk about how they had done everything right--basically obeyed their side of the social contract--and to hear them basically say, "And what I got was ripped off." And then to have in my city in Baltimore, right now about 10 years ago during the housing crisis, to see Wells Fargo going to these black folks who just want to buy homes, who just want to be part of the basic American dream, social contract, and to see them being ripped off, not in the same fashion but the same idea--taking from them. We fear without any sort of direct engagement of that question, it won't stop.

Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 12-22-16 2:51 PM
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Going to a 90-year-old's house in Lawndale in Chicago, and I'm not supposing you don't have more experience with this, because you read letters and travel and you see, but as a journalist to sit there and see somebody who fought in World War II, and to hear him talk about how they had done everything right--basically obeyed their side of the social contract--and to hear them basically say, "And what I got was ripped off.

Shorter: "Born...in the USA!" It's as if...this feeling and experience might be rather general.

OK, Finger 01, clear to wag....


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 12-22-16 3:55 PM
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Yeah, quite. Going and fighting in a war and coming home to find you don't get well treated is not an experience limited to black American WW2 veterans. I would imagine the Bonus Army was pretty much all white, and they didn't just get poorly served by their mortgage lenders, they got overrun by tanks .


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 12-22-16 4:15 PM
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Yeah, quite. Going and fighting in a war and coming home to find you don't get well treated is not an experience limited to black American WW2 veterans.

This is quite true. However . . . I'm not sure that the probabilities are equal. Just as one example, consider the wikipedia entry on Levittown

Levittown is the name of seven large suburban developments created in the United States of America by William Levitt and his company Levitt & Sons. Built after World War II for returning veterans and their new families (though limited to those of "the Caucasian race", as stipulated in housing rent and sales agreements), the communities offered attractive alternatives to cramped central city locations and apartments.

That's quite the parenthetical clause there.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 12-22-16 6:03 PM
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That was not the intended indentation . . .


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 12-22-16 6:03 PM
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