Re: Witless

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Well, they probably won't go for the Jews first this time, if it makes you feel better.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 8:39 PM
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We had quite a lot of money in the bank. Alas, when we moved back to CA, we burned through pretty much all of it. So, even though three of us are Canadians, and the fourth could be pretty easily, it would be very difficult to leave on short notice. This is not the sort of mistake that a child of a Holocaust survivor should make -- my grandmother always kept $50,000 in her freezer -- but I'm not renowned for my excellent life choices. Anyway, I'm not feel especially panicked, but I am dreading dealing with this shit for the remainder of Bannon's term in office.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 8:40 PM
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I guess it should be come for, not go for.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 8:40 PM
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I don't genuinely think they'll come for me unless it deteriorated to catching people for political speech on the internet. But that doesn't keep me from feeling like we're in free fall.


Posted by: heebie | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 8:43 PM
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I have a spare couch but alas no spare room. And there's still plenty of work for PhDs here. Of course this part of the region could go up in flames, and even Bush didn't manage that (though this country is very stable and expected to remain so).


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 8:52 PM
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I recommend listening to Woody Guthrie's fighting fascism songs. Some good ones for today are (sorry, too lazy to embed)

"A better world a-comin'"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQLzZ1zlkGo

"All you fascists bound to lose":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQLzZ1zlkGo

(This ones a bit more dated but nice and jazzy)
"Tear the fascist down:"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKVnur5DkdI

There's also his anti-Lindbergh song, which has the nice line, "When they say America First, they mean America next."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw9qJhvxytg


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 8:54 PM
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Union Maid is a great protest song too. Here's a Pete Seeger cover:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8C_7cU_Idc


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 8:58 PM
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You know, I'm just going to go on naming leftist folk songs as they pop into my head until someone stops me.

Solidarity Forever
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly5ZKjjxMNM


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:02 PM
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I guess that answers my unspoken question about whether it is really worth a burglar's time to search the freezer for valuables.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:02 PM
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We're in the process of searching for & buying a house, which feels deeply insane given that I don't really know if I will want to live in this country next year.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:03 PM
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" In our hands is placed a power greater than their hoarded gold
Greater than the might of armies magnified a thousandfold
We can bring to birth a new world from the ashes of the old
For the Union makes us strong"

Let's remember the power of organized mass movements.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:04 PM
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Why not? I think Bannon does.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:06 PM
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It's absolutely scary. I don't feel great about the big "IRAN" in my passport. We had a talk last night about the conditions under which we'd leave (registry; laws targeting specific groups in the country), and various preparations, which just amount to making sure our documents are in order and ready to grab, and having a box of precious stuff that we could throw in the car and head to one of the land crossings into Canada. It's a crazy conversation to have, but like I read from Gary Kasparov, it's way better to regret overreacting than reacting too late.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:07 PM
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If you want a chess master who emigrates, Bobby Fischer is your man.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:11 PM
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Anyway, this is my fucking country and I'm not going anywhere. I realize this is easier to say for me, not belonging to any of the explicitly threatened categories, but I have no intention of doing anything but riding this out and looking for where to push back.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:22 PM
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I'm also never learning to play chess well enough that I can reliably beat an intelligent pre-teen. That's not a promise so much as a prediction based on past experience.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:24 PM
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I would like to have custody resolved to the point where I could leave the country if I needed to, but legislation keeping me from getting custody resolved would probably get there first and we're not really the sort of people other countries want more than this one anyway. None of the girls have passports at this point. They would like an escape plan, but I just keep telling them that they come from a long line of survivors and we're going to get through and help the people we can to do the same.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:32 PM
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I'm no help to calm anyone down. I'm trying to stop reading the news because every day since the inauguration I've spent hours reading and crying, reading and crying, until my head hurts so badly I can't do any work.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:32 PM
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how exhausting it is to have a so many organizing attempts tugging at your attention
Suggestion:
The only thing that matters is the levers of state power. So:
(1) So, organize proactively for elections.
(1.b) AIUI the key is state legislatures for 2020 redistricting. Those come first.
(2) Organize reactively to prevent irreversible seizure of power: election-rigging, emergency powers.
(3) Everything else.
I'm thinking a cascade, so each level only gets resources if you have any left over from the level before.
Problem here is that (2) is reactive, and issues at (2) have to trump everything else when they arise. And issues arising at (2) will be arising at every level of government, not just federal, so watching for them becomes murderous in itself.
As to (3), maybe each person picks one issue from level 3 and spends time and energy only on that. Which is terrible, but you have to have a procedure, else you will be swamped.
On the plus side, the sheer volume of shit means that there is good reason to maintain a high level of vocal activism and public demonstrations at all times, so hopefully when the shit really hits at (2) people will be unafraid to turn out in meaningful numbers.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:35 PM
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Don't read the news! It's not worth it.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:36 PM
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America is still fine, just don't drink the water. Or at least you should boil it first if you live in my neighborhood.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:44 PM
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I guess I should put a note on the sink in case I wake up and need a sip of water.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:46 PM
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I'm pretty freaked out. There's a non-negligible chance that my job will be made obsolete within a year or two of the confirmation of a new Supreme Court justice. I don't know what I'll do at that point.

We had a discussion here a couple weeks ago about the extent to which Rust Belt folks should be blamed for not picking up and moving someplace else when it was obvious what was happening to their way of life. I couldn't really participate in that conversation at the time because it felt too close to home, but I do understand that I should find another line of work. But also know that I won't -- I feel like I need to go down with this ship.

OTOH I'm hoping that M will strike it rich and we'll move to Europe and I'll stay home and eat chocolate while he works all day, for the rest of my life. I remind him of this plan every morning.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:47 PM
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Hopefully you add a reassuring "but, hey, no pressure".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:48 PM
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In the meantime, I have no idea what to do. I call my senators almost every day, but it makes no difference because (1) Kamala Harris barely ever has anyone picking up her phone, and her mailbox is always full; and (2) I already know how my senators are going to vote. I am about 75% of the way to convincing my parents to participate in the Science March with me, which is a big deal because they're basically conservative centrists and have never participated in any significant political activity in their lives (they usually don't even vote). I'm learning what I can about immigration law. But mostly I feel useless and panicked.

Someone (maybe someone here!) should make an app that people can subscribe to, and get a notification about what concerted political action people in their zip code should participate in that day.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:54 PM
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24. I phrase it more like, "...I mean, if my health and happiness mean anything to you, but of course it's totally your decision."


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 9:56 PM
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I have 1 week and a couple months plans in case my visa gets cancelled early.


Posted by: hydrobatidae | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 10:15 PM
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I'm trying to strike a balance between 'the Nazis are coming V. 1933' and 'you're crazy there are no Nazis'


Posted by: hydrobatidae | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 10:17 PM
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Why do policemen travel in groups of three?

One who can read. One who can write, and one to watch the intellectuals. Ha ha, no relevance for America.


Posted by: Lw | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 10:44 PM
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Seconding 15. I'm not going anywhere and I'm not afraid of them.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 11:20 PM
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19: I don't exactly disagree with your ranking of the relative importance of your categories, but I'm not sure they're the right ones, plus there's the issue of what's feasible to do when. Yes, state politics should be the top priority overall when looking at the long-term picture, but there's not a whole lot ordinary people can do at this point to actively work on that.

Only two states (Virginia and New Jersey) have regular legislative elections in 2017; North Carolina currently has a court-ordered special election scheduled but that could get overruled at a higher judicial level. Most states don't have their next elections until 2018, and it'll be a while before candidates even start filing to run. People can (and should!) give to state Democratic Parties and so forth, and get involved in local elections, which often follow different cycles from state and national ones, but beyond that we're in the lull phase of the election cycle most places.

But that's kind of a good thing, because it means people can focus right now on pushing back against executive overreach, which we're seeing no shortage of. Given the way American political and social institutions operate, which I understand is different from how it works in many other countries, that means NGOs like the ACLU that are focused on legal action against the government are the main players, and people are right to be focusing their donations on them. Turning out for protests is important too, since it keeps the pressure on and forces the media to keep covering these issues. That's particularly important given the reports that executive branch officials have been refusing to comply with court orders; institutions and norms are only as strong as the willingness of those in power to obey them, and robust public protest is one of the only ways to pressure them to do so.

It's important to keep the pressure on Congress too. The Democrats there are starting to turn toward wholesale obstructionism, which they surely wouldn't have without public pressure. The levers of federal power matter too, and the Democrats do have some if they're willing to use them.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-31-17 11:49 PM
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I'm not sure they're the right ones
Care to elaborate?
we're in the lull phase of the election cycle most places
Which strikes me as the right time to be organizing (rather than last-minute campaigning). And local politics is where you can recruit candidates for higher elections, even if only for credible primary-from-the-left threats. I think most of us here agree the election resulted essentially from inadequate Democratic organization, and organizing is a long tiring game, hence my ranking above.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:08 AM
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31 Absolutely right.

Pressure on state legislatures is worth looking at as well. We have pretty large Rep majorities in both houses here, but also the Governor, so there's some leverage, and plenty of energy just right now to fight the wildest shit that comes along.

People can donate (or phone bank) in our special congressional election. Rep Zinke made it through committee today, and may get a floor vote this week (although I think next week is more likely). We'll have a nominee shortly thereafter. Election in 90 days or so.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:08 AM
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I think credible primary-from-the-left threats are likely counterproductive for organizing in a whole lot of places where national elections are won and lost.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:14 AM
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34: How so? And do you draw a disitinction between federal-level and other elections?


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:21 AM
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Care to elaborate?

Sure. Here are your three categories, as I interpret them:

1. State politics, particularly focused on redistricting in 2020.
2. Pushing back against executive overreach right now.
3. Everything else.

As I said, I don't necessarily disagree with this as stated. However:

1. As I stated above, state politics looking toward 2020 is absolutely crucial, but there's not a whole lot of concrete steps to be followed right now. Candidates won't declare for a while in most states, and it takes time to cultivate them. We should certainly start that process if we happen to know people who should run (which I personally do, and will, but the same isn't true of everyone).

2. Pushing back against executive overreach is crucial, and I don't think we disagree in any meaningful way here, unless it's over whether this or the above should be the first priority.

3. "Everything else" is an awfully broad category. Trump has already issued Executive Orders on a bunch of subjects that need to be opposed now, and he's very likely to issue a bunch more in the coming days. Every single one needs pushback, and in some cases that may be more important than either of the categories above in the near term. For example, the immigration restrictions absolutely need to be resisted long before we're able to organize state-level election campaigns or lawsuits against voting-rights restrictions. Not that those two aren't more important in the long run, because they are, but there are people getting stranded in airports and refused boarding of flights right now who need immediate attention that can't wait for that other stuff to play out. And, again, the key players here are NGOs like the ACLU.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:43 AM
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Which strikes me as the right time to be organizing (rather than last-minute campaigning). And local politics is where you can recruit candidates for higher elections, even if only for credible primary-from-the-left threats.

Absolutely, and for real, we're working on it, or at least I am. But there's not a whole lot regular people can do on a daily basis to help with this unless they happen to know people who might be good candidates. Which they well might! But in that case it's mainly a case of getting the ball rolling, after which there's not much for the individual citizen to do.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:48 AM
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34/35: Primary challenges from the left are useful in areas where the Dems are already dominant, as a way of signaling where the party's base is. In marginal or swing areas, Dems are only going to win with relatively moderate candidates who can appeal to a lot of voters who might otherwise be inclined to vote Republican. And those are the areas where national elections are won and lost.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:52 AM
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And there's certainly a distinction between federal and other elections on this, but it's complicated and varies from state to state.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:53 AM
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38: Ok. By 'marginal' I take it you mean the few competitive House* seats?
*Is the Senate competitive? Would it be worth focusing there to gain some blocking power over the gerrymandered House?


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:57 AM
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40: Right. The few actually competitive House seats are mainly in districts where Dems are going to have to actively compete with Republicans for votes, as opposed to rallying the base, pretty much by definition. Primary challenges from the left can be valuable, but not in these districts.

The Senate can be competitive, but in 2018 it's unlikely to be because the map strongly favors the GOP. The most competitive races are likely to be in Nevada and Arizona, which should tell you something.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 1:05 AM
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And the Senate has the same sort of Republican lean as the House overall, but it's harder to overcome because the districts can't be redrawn. This is one of the key structural disadvantages Democrats face nationally.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 1:07 AM
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36: My (2) was "irreversible seizure of power". That's much more specific than "executive overreach". I mean actions which will make it legally impossible for Republicans to lose elections, not necessarily originating in the executive or at the federal level. So, I'd put the immigration EO in (3), the NSC EO potentially in (2).
(2) is the most important category, because irreversibility, but I put it second because I see it (perhaps wrongly) as more reactive than proactive, and more intermittent than continual.
Every single one needs pushback ... more important ... in the near term
Yes. This is the swamping problem, and why I suggested individuals picking single causes.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 1:12 AM
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My (2) was "irreversible seizure of power". That's much more specific than "executive overreach". I mean actions which will make it legally impossible for Republicans to lose elections, not necessarily originating in the executive or at the federal level. So, I'd put the immigration EO in (3), the NSC EO potentially in (2).

So how do you propose to oppose it? Stern letters to Members of Congress? Armed insurgency? We only have so many tools here.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 1:30 AM
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(2) is the most important category, because irreversibility, but I put it second because I see it (perhaps wrongly) as more reactive than proactive, and more intermittent than continual.

I think it's actually more proactive than reactive, and the key is to keep our guard up and be ready to protest on short notice when the administration does something unacceptable in this direction, which it's likely to do often. Electoral organizing is much more of a background thing.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 1:33 AM
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Yes. This is the swamping problem, and why I suggested individuals picking single causes.

Sure. But it's a very big country, and we have a lot of people to work with. We can cover a lot of causes this way even if each individual only chooses one. And I'm not totally convinced we need to limit ourselves that much. Maybe two or three each.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 1:39 AM
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I reject the lump of activist labor fallacy. And executive overreach can quickly become the irreversible seizure of power it can certainly set the stage for it (EOs as shaping operations).

Rather than enervating effective and total opposition energizes. Hell it worked for them .


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 1:59 AM
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44:So how do you propose to oppose it?
I'm talking only about choosing priorities, not means.
45:be ready to protest on short notice when the administration does something unacceptable in this direction
Waiting for Republicans to do something, then opposing. That's what I mean by reactive. I think we agree, anyway, that it'll be episodic rather than constant.
46: Comity.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 2:12 AM
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Immediately, if anybody can dream up practical ways to support this, it might be a good idea.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 3:53 AM
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People have jokingly (although a little more seriously than before) asked us if we're coming back from living abroad. Of course we are, my job is here and everyone's friends and our family etc. We do have the option of a free 1yr visa extension so if Trump's really going to go full Hitler hopefully it's obvious in the next few months.
We are applying for citizenship in an EU country in which we have the right by ancestry. That is less as an escape hatch and more so we could more easily return for another long stay later and so kids could go to cheap university or live/work there if they want. It will take at least 1, probably 2-3 years to receive.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 3:57 AM
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So Trump's supreme court pick looks like a basic standard right wing judge. Unfortunately the guy's 12 years old so we're stuck with him forever. Could be worse, I suppose.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 5:54 AM
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Unfortunately "standard right wing" now means overturn Roe, overturn VRA, overturn ACA, and if the president does something that means it's legal*.
*Offer not valid for Democratic presidents.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 6:20 AM
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I think he needed to do something quick to keep the "anybody but a Democrat" wing of the party from bolting. The guy is the something.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 6:22 AM
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52: Yeah, I'm trying not to freak out. Things will be bad, but how bad really? I'm personally looking at loss of health insurance (or being shuttled into 'death pools') but I really don't think the more fevered notions of real fascism are going to come to pass. I have people on my FB feed speculating about a manufactured crisis that allows for the suspension of the constitution, for example. We're screwed, but not that screwed, I don't think. Survivably boned. OTOH, hanging on the thin reed of "he probably won't suspend the constitution" for comfort suggests that things perhaps aren't that great.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 6:57 AM
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I have people on my FB feed speculating about a manufactured crisis that allows for the suspension of the constitution, for example.

I don't think the Constitution will be suspended, so much as ignored. Except when it helps the right find a means to an end. Then, the Constitution is sacred.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 7:07 AM
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Like, when the border patrol ignores a court order. That's not suspending the Constitution. But WTF is it?


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 7:09 AM
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Contempt of court?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 7:12 AM
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You would think, but rumors have been flying that the US Marshalls are supporting the border patrol in this, not the courts.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 7:23 AM
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Also, there was this thing shortly before election day last year, I don't know if you remember, but the GODDAMN DIRECTOR OF THE FBI THREW THE ELECTION TO DONALD TRUMP.

At this point, I have very little faith in our federal law enforcement agencies.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 7:24 AM
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That's reasonable. Also, it would presumably be pretty easy for Trump and the Republican Congress to greatly restrict immigration and travel to the U.S. by means that would pass muster with any U.S. court. I think making them do it that way is about as close to a win as is possible in the next couple of years.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 7:35 AM
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I've been predicting since the election that Trump would be worse than Bush but not worse than Buchanan. That is, garden-variety right-wing mismanagement, opposition to voting rights, crony capitalism, militarism, and sabotaging the welfare state, turned up to 11. But not actually provoking a civil war, nuclear war, or coup. It would suck for the people we bomb and invade and for any Americans who aren't rich a lot more than the previous eight years did, but the United States would still be recognizable as such when a different president takes office.

12 days in, I'd still say that's on balance the most likely possibility, but I'm a lot less sure of it.

As for my plans, I've started donating to the ACLU and Planned Parenthood, and the local food bank. Should have done it a long time ago (I actually did give to the ACLU regularly for a while, and then stopped for a longer while, for honestly no good reason at all), but better late than never. I've looked into being one of those PP clinic escorts, since there's one near my house, but there's a lot less need for that here than in some places and "looked into" isn't worth much. Living where I do, I'm very well positioned for going to protests and poorly positioned for any political engagement. I can contribute to or volunteer for competitive races in nearby states, I guess. We went to a meeting (a fundraiser? Maybe, but I don't think a candidate was identified, I left early with the kid anyway) for one such district last weekend.

Honestly, the best thing I could do is probably pick up slack parenting if it would let Cassandane do activist stuff more. She's more suited to it in several ways, and while we did fine taking Atossa to the Women's March, many protests won't be so kid-appropriate.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 8:25 AM
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Speaking of protests, at the nearby Catholic, historically-female, college, somebody put a pink hat on the statue of the founding nun.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 8:28 AM
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Our senate seat (held by a Dem) may well be competitive. Yes, you can find leftists saying he should be primaried from the left for this that or the other sin, even out here. It's stupid and dangerous, but, hey, water is wet, fish gotta swim, and all that.

Organizing to primary from the left, even in a fairly safe environment, means the creation of a second, hostile Dem-like structure. There are people who go for this kind of internal tension, but lots of people are really turned off by it: they want to fight Trump, not their incumbent Democrat. It draws off money and energy from the existing structure, and depends on knocking the incumbent down a peg or two. There are environments where this might not be fatal, but I'd think they're quite the minority, both in state and federal contexts.

As mentioned, we're having a debate about this here right now for our special election. Someone suggested that one candidate might do better in bringing out the trans-gendered vote than another. (While the other is likely to do better among rural white men.) OK, sure, it would be better to have trans people vote for our candidate than for the Republican. But the math here isn't exactly complicated.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 8:30 AM
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The nomination of Gorsuch was actually sort of a relief, as it seems to represent a gesture towards normalcy. Just about everything Trump has done up to now seems to have been for practically the sole purpose of trolling liberals. For the SC I was half expecting him to nominate David Duke, or maybe an orangutan.

I mean, a Scalia style right wing justice is bad, but bad in a familiar way.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 8:32 AM
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Bad, like Citizens United bad? Because that's actually still disastrously bad.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 8:35 AM
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For me, it's not exactly that he's bad in a familiar way. It's that he's bad in a way that indicates Trump is still listening to Republicans who have actually policy preferences and not a vague desire for Ragnarök.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 8:36 AM
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Or even the ability, I'll wager, to write umlauts in HTML.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 8:45 AM
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64

I would prefer an orangutan to Gorsuch, honestly.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 8:46 AM
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Does everyone already know about swingleft.org? Basically an idiot's guide to finding the closest competitive house race (I already knew about mine, IL-10, and was already busily ignoring Schneider's fundraising emails but fortunately for my conscience he won anyway in November). One of the founders is a friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 8:54 AM
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when the border patrol ignores a court order

*Without consequence*. This was the most disturbing thing to me about the whole immigration mess. That, and the Marshals not doing anything about it. If the guys with guns are going to freelance based on vague pronouncements from the executive, we have a very serious problem.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 8:54 AM
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Yep.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 8:55 AM
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I saw people link to swingleft on FB, but I've reached a level of paranoia where I don't trust any website I've only heard mentioned on FB.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 8:58 AM
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That's not paranoia.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 9:03 AM
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CharleyCarp et al. makes a good argument that primarying Democrats from the left will often be counterproductive, and, sure, in specific cases that's definitely true. But I can't help but comparing how well it's worked for the right.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 9:06 AM
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Yeah, it's an empirical question, and I don't know the answer. It kind of seems to me that a primary contest might at least sometimes do more good than harm -- it's publicity for whoever the winner is, and it wakes up your voters and gets them involved with the race.

On the other hand, it could turn people off, I guess. I really don't know as a general rule.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 9:09 AM
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I mean, I'm spitting with rage right now at my Rep, Adriano Espaillat. The NY State Senate is controlled by Republicans, because there's a breakaway group of six or seven Democrats calling themselves the Independent Democrats Council caucusing with them. Espaillat was in the State Senate until this last election, and his hand picked successor announced before the election that she was joining the IDC.

I think they both need to be primaried from the left, but I'm in a safe place for it -- it would be really weird for an open Republican (as opposed to a stealth Quisling like Alcantrara) to win either seat.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 9:13 AM
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61.last: I think that's very helpful. I am so limited in what I can do because of childcare and time constraints (and just my own limits) and I think freeing someone else up to work more effectively definitely counts as work toward the end goal.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 9:26 AM
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I could imagine Feinstein being primaried in 2018, indeed I'm blathering about it elsewhere, but I'd like to hope it could be in a non-enemy-creating "we'll all come together behind the nominee" way. The local progressive group that won the local party committee seats in an upset identified itself in its fliers as joining Bernie and Hillary supporters.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 9:37 AM
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On the flip side, my friend who ran for one of those seats in a neighboring district was apparently confronted with "Who did you vote for in the primary?" as a litmus test.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 9:38 AM
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(By "being primaried" I mean a race she has to fight, not actually being beaten, tbc. Top-two makes that even harder.)


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 9:38 AM
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was apparently confronted with "Who did you vote for in the primary?" as a litmus test.

Ugh. We're doomed...


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 9:46 AM
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*Without consequence*. This was the most disturbing thing to me about the whole immigration mess. That, and the Marshals not doing anything about it. If the guys with guns are going to freelance based on vague pronouncements from the executive, we have a very serious problem.

This is exactly what's getting me. That the court system is being rendered subsidiary to the White House. I feel like the balance of democracy is going to tip based on whether the military feels more allegiance to the constitution or the White House.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 9:59 AM
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I think the military will stay out of it unless things go really wrong.

The US Marshall story is terrifying, of course.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 10:13 AM
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83: Like a branch of government starts unilaterally not enforcing illegal executive orders? You don't think that Trump would see that as the opportunity to flex his next muscle and send in the military?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 10:17 AM
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But it's illegal, right? Posse Comitatus and all that. I think the military would just refuse. If he then starts firing generals over it, then the apocalypse is here, of course.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 10:25 AM
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Someone here or the other place or the other other place noted during the DHS/CBP/circuit standoff, "I'm from the Middle East. This is when we'd be checking to see which side the military prefers."


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 10:27 AM
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What this country needs is a big new weapons program that Democrats and Republicans can unite behind, and progressives can stand outside of buildings yelling about. I propose the F-69 Stealth Quisling. $8 or $9 trillion is not too much to pay for a return to business as usual.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 10:37 AM
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What's the next step for confirmation/escalation of the "court orders going unenforced" thing? I've seen it in Guardian, Daily Beast, but not US mainstream media.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 10:41 AM
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Sort of on CNN, I guess. Hopefully ACLU et al. are accumulating hard evidence.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 10:44 AM
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88: Is there a next step? I suppose the court could order the military to intervene, and we could really get this party started.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 10:45 AM
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The court would order the justice department to ....

Wait. I see a problem.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 10:49 AM
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Has there been a contempt of court order issued? What's next.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 10:52 AM
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My understanding is that the US Attorney ordered the marshalls not to enforce, so I guess the next step is for the courts to hold that person in contempt. Then the Marshalls have to either obey, or openly flout the will of the court. Right now they seem to be relying on confusion.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 10:54 AM
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If they refuse after a ruling of contempt then we're really up the creek.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 10:58 AM
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Then the public needs to target the relevant official.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 11:00 AM
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On a slightly less scared witless bent, I wonder about a "liberaltarian" alliance actually forming this time.

IIRC that phrase was created by some Very Serious Person around 2006, when Republicans were still in power but very unpopular. (30 seconds of research shows that it came from Cato, a bad sign, after the 2006 election. But anyways.) Nothing came of it, probably for a lot of reasons: neither group has really needed the other since then, and "true" libertarians are such a small group that it's not worth liberals making any meaningful compromises with them, and there's a tension between the core principles of each group that's hard to bridge. Where liberals are all kumbaya and helping people out, libertarians are all about government itself being eeevil. They occasionally lead people to the same conclusion about e.g. police brutality but it's pretty hard to bridge that gap on most issues.

But the previous election depended on a lot of small groups, as we've discussed at length, and at the moment not being fascist is actually a pretty big issue, so maybe there's something there? I dunno, just a thought.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 11:11 AM
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But it's illegal, right? Posse Comitatus and all that. I think the military would just refuse. If he then starts firing generals over it, then the apocalypse is here, of course.

Right. The middle sentence is where democracy hangs.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 11:49 AM
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Or rather, the third sentence.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 11:49 AM
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Yeah, of our checks and balances we're down to mutiny and a hope that memes can drive a wedge between the narcissist with nukes and the white supremacist who has his ear.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:03 PM
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I sporadically have these flashes where I wonder if we're having our death panel delusionary freak out. They're so soothing.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:06 PM
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Or, maybe the CIA will save us? But even if the intelligence community leaked bank records showing the mother of all emolluments, the 19%, I don't think the Republicans would give a shit.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:15 PM
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Liberals will write letters and march. The Republicans will turn the IC on their political enemies, the AG on the opposition, and the law on the electoral system. I don't think we have four years, I don't think we have two.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:19 PM
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Okay, that's my *itless freakout for the moment.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:20 PM
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If there was clear evidence of the 19%, then the Republicans would impeach him. Why wouldn't they? It's not like they lose control of the Presidency.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:30 PM
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They're very good at ignoring evidence, especially their base, who're really all that matters.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:36 PM
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I think the Republicans are trying to read their base and will impeach him only when the base finds the transgression completely clear cut and incontrovertible. So far nothing particularly affects their base, because their base is full of shitheads who can't be bothered to think about Syrians being actual people nor the actual fucking history and constitution of the United States.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:40 PM
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106

This is the problem. There's some number of Americans who don't care about anything except the suffering of their enemies, stoked by 20 years of malicious misinformation. There is nothing Trump could do to be impeachable. At this point he could probably wear a swastika armband and declare martial law and murder a small child on the White House lawn and these people would cheer that he was hippie punching. We've let the Republican party poison the minds of enough people that we've broken one of the foundations of democracy, an educated populace committed to maintaining it.

The Republicans are all feckless bootlicking appeasers of the worst type. Morally stunted greedy cowards who don't care about turning our country into an openly fascist white supremacist regime as long as they profit off of it. There is no way to attempt to work through the norms and procedures of government because they no longer exist. For all those with noble proceduralist instincts, I would recommend reading Bonhoeffer's Ethics on how to reconcile any Kantian beliefs with resisting in a fascist regime.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 12:58 PM
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With cabinet nomination hearings, the Democrats boycotted the committee hearings, the Republicans unilaterally changed the rules to not require their presence. Trump is ramming his cabinet through. Our democratic institutions are visibly breaking down by the day.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 1:01 PM
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I think that's more a good sign (in terms of the Democrats showing a spine) than a bad one.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 1:07 PM
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96: That portmanteau may date to 2006, but I'm sure the concept is older. I remember a David Brin story with the backstory that drugs had been fully legalized by a "Liberal/Libertarian coalition" that ousted both Democrats and Republicans.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 1:07 PM
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"Stage of Memory", in an anthology dated 1986.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 1:09 PM
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US Attorney ordered the marshalls not to enforce

Is this right? I did a quick search but did not find this. I did find that along with appointing the acting AG, DJT appointed a deportation enthusisast, Homan, as acting head of ICE.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 1:24 PM
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This is one of the things that's been circulating involving a US Attorney (I saw the thread described elsewhere as unverified).

From Guardian, it does look like Kelly emailed DHS staff confirming compliance with judicial orders, so it could just be individual bullheaded or trumpy officers who later got phone calls from their superiors reminding them court orders apply to them too. Which would still be bad, but at least it would mean things are being sorted out according to separation-of-powers principles. Rg.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 1:32 PM
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That would be the most cheerful interpretation that fits the facts.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 1:37 PM
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I feel swarming phildickian paranoia that I've been transported to an alternate universe where DJT could be the fucking president. like I manage to forget for minutes at a time and am then seized by spasms of anxious terror.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 5:57 PM
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115

It's because the Cubs won the World Series. It knocked us into alternate universe-world.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 6:32 PM
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115 I feel very much the same. Like I'll be absorbed in some task or just the suckiness of work for a bit and then surface with the sudden horrific realization that yes, Trump is president and there's a Nazi in the WH and all this horribleb shit really is happening and it's only going to get worse. Much much worse.

Only thinking of how large, widespread, and energetic the protests have been helps me cope.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 6:53 PM
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Australia!


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 7:22 PM
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Yesterday I read this Foreign Policy piece, arguing that Trump actually has a consistent articulated grand strategy, it's just amazingly stupid and destined to fail in depth (if it doesn't start a war). I summarized it at the time as he really doesn't perceive such a thing as friends, only enemies and inferiors, and without friends you can't accomplish much of anything on the world stage. Australia (JFC) certainly bolsters that picture.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 7:29 PM
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Oops. Well, the link still works.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 7:29 PM
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Oh hey, good on teofilo for single-handedly flipping Lisa Murkowski on Betty Davos.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 7:30 PM
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I would say that I have not had more than fifteen or twenty waking moments since November 8 that have passed without worry about Trump. It's cutting into my productivity at work and I'm actually thinking of seeing if I can get some anti-anxiety medication.

It's just unbelievable how bad everything is. I get these sort of almost out of body episodes or periods of derealization where I feel like I'm in a dream or immersed in a book or movie - the constant anxiety and the large scale of the problems are so overwhelming that it puts me into an altered state. I feel like I ought to be waking up any time now.

On the other hand, I feel that I have finally really won the "but aren't the two political parties just the same" argument; no one has had the gall and hubris to try to tell me that things would be like this if Hillary won. Also, several of the specific "though we are of the left we should none the less vote for Hillary or [things will be terrible]" arguments I advanced before the election have been 100% vindicated. So that provides a little bit of satisfaction.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 8:05 PM
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I can report that we (I want to say "we" though I'm only hearing the copters from a distance) lit enough things on fire to stop Milo Fuckface from speaking on campus tonight. You really never want to be on the side of people who light things on fire; and yet I'm really viscerally glad that he didn't get to talk. Voltaire did not have this guy in mind.


Posted by: lourdes kayak | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 8:27 PM
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We have fuckheads, but not in a way people of his time could have understood.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 8:37 PM
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UC represent!


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 8:42 PM
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Update to the court order enforcement issue: petitioners including Representative Don Beyer have filed to the US District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia asking them to hold Donald Trump, based on CBP officials' actions in Dulles, in contempt of court. Brief, PDF.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 9:02 PM
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(I'm sure it matters to lawyers they technically asked for a show cause order why he should not be found in contempt of court, but that's the upshot, right?)


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 9:02 PM
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And the Virginia AG has filed a brief in support of the motion.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 9:04 PM
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Here it comes: https://mobile.twitter.com/JessicaValenti/status/827005724685377536


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 9:06 PM
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Isn't much of that trying to undo an actual pass-by-Congress law with an executive order?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 9:22 PM
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Also, it looks like he's trying to create exemptions for people with religious objections to pre-marital sex and same-sex marriage. Does that mean adultery and unmarried homosexual sex are still protected?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 9:24 PM
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, laydeez.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 9:37 PM
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And they've moved on to setting the Wells Fargo on fire and hitting people in the head with bike locks. No more "we."


Posted by: lourdes kayak | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 10:27 PM
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121: You're welcome.

(I really did email her, and got a noncommittal response. I emailed again about the EO. We'll see.)


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 10:32 PM
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133: Berkeley's statement was gold. "The violence was instigated by a group of about 150 masked agitators who came onto campus and interrupted an otherwise non-violent protest,"...

Yeah, once you look past the hundreds of people chucking bricks at the cops and setting things on fire it's totally peaceful!


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 10:56 PM
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Well, you know, Berkeley.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 10:57 PM
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There would have been way less rioting in Davis.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 11:08 PM
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There was no rioting here. Reports of violence were, as I understand, circulated by Milo's people. And I'm not sure why gswift is so sure that the protests at Berkeley were violent from the get-go. To be clear, I have no idea if they were initially peceful, but that's certainly what I've heard from people who were there.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 11:23 PM
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I don't see him saying that, just asking "was the protest violent, yes or no?" without regard to timing.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 11:27 PM
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Well how long did it really take? Scroll through the pics. Obviously a bunch that stuff went down at the actual student union building before they went into the city.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/UC-Berkeley-protest-spills-into-city-streets-10902222.php#photo-12296722


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 11:35 PM
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From what little video I've seen some of those antifa guys need serious jail time. Beating unconscious people is unacceptable at the best of times. I'm all in favor of protesting fascists but FFS. As this escalates someone is going to get killed.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 11:48 PM
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Given 140, it seems like my reading of 135 was right, teo, but thanks. And gswift, I'm still not clear on why you're so certain that the initial protest, before the masked dudes showed up, wasn't peaceful. Is there a particular picture that I should be looking at? I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm genuinely curious if you have good reason to be so confident about the timeline. I'll be talking about this in a meeting tomorrow, and it would help to know if Berkeley's statement is actually bogus.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02- 1-17 11:57 PM
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I mean, I'm not claiming to be providing any actual information on anything outside this comment thread. So whatever.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 12:15 AM
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I don't know why I even bother trying to clarify people's comments on here. It just leads to other commenters attacking me rather than the original commenter. But I've been doing it for years, so I guess I never learn.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 12:26 AM
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Thank you for your service, teo.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 12:33 AM
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The election of Trump has affected me profoundly. I cut my coffee intake in half. I'm sleeping hours less at night. I'm warning everyone I know to expect genocide. And yet I find myself surprisingly cheerful all things considered. The prospect of being hanged in the (future) seems to help clarify my priorities. I find myself devoting more time and effort to my religion (Islam) and getting significant helpings of joy in return.


Posted by: roger the cabin boy | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 3:58 AM
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I thought this was kinda interesting: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/02/liberals-on-the-edge-of-a-nervous-breakdown-214727


Posted by: roger the cabin boy | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 7:57 AM
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Fear itself isn't the only thing we have to fear, but it's right up there on the list.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 8:02 AM
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147 is a good article - I hadn't realized that both those writers were Silicon Valley folks.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 8:06 AM
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144: you won't be up yet, teo, but if you read 142 as an attack, I'm not sure what to say. For what it's worth, I also wasn't attacking gswift. I was, as I said, trying to figure out if he had some insight into the the images that I wasn't understanding.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 8:13 AM
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Now you're attacking him for sleeping in.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 8:20 AM
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Moby's the one who should be attacked for clarifying other people's comments. Get him!


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 8:23 AM
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Well, it's Alaska, so I assume he's hibernating.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 8:24 AM
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138: Re: "And I'm not sure why gswift is so sure that the protests at Berkeley were violent from the get-go"

I usually start with he's a cop and that is explanation enough


Posted by: Bass | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 8:36 AM
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Chronological blow-by-blow here for those who want details: http://www.berkeleyside.com/2017/02/01/helicopters-berkeley-milo-yiannopoulos-protest/

The university's statement is accurate. Basically you had a large group of students committed to loud and peaceful protest, which was happening all afternoon; and then toward dusk the masked folks started setting off fireworks and tearing down barricades around the student union building, and instigated the subsequent mayhem in the stress.

Some students tried to clean up afterward.
https://twitter.com/scottsaul4/status/827020348696584192


Posted by: lourdes kayak | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 9:48 AM
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stress -> streets


Posted by: lourdes kayak | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 9:49 AM
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155: thanks. I really appreciate it. That was what I was told by people who were there, but I thought maybe I was missing some important detail. Anyway, I have to talk about this mess later today, and it's nice to have some (not a lot, mind you) confidence in my sense of what happened. I still wish I understood why gswift was so skeptical last night about UCB's statement.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 11:03 AM
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File under "Take whatever small comforts you can find". I enjoyed this headline in the Washington Post:

"Tehran shrugs off pressures from 'inexperienced' U.S. president"

Not sure what that says about my state of mind.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 11:48 AM
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If you go to the other thread, you can probably ask how to pronounce "inexperienced" in Farsi.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 12:01 PM
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150: Don't worry about it. "Attack" was overly strong; it was late and like everyone else I've been pretty stressed-out lately.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 12:55 PM
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stress -> streets

and anxious --> sheets.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 1:02 PM
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...laydeez.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 1:06 PM
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147 is a good article - I hadn't realized that both those writers were Silicon Valley folks.

FYI: Yonatan Zunger has a new post which expands on his original argument and responds directly to various criticisms including the article linked in 147. I think it belabors the point a bit, but it does give a better sense of his thinking then the quick summary in the linked article.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 3:34 PM
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Fucking hell. One of my main coping mechanisms is reading Drew Magary make fun of the NFL. He just put up his Super Bowl preview column, and it's all about how he was so depressed that went to church, and he started crying. Trump has ruined everything. Trump has even ruined the Super Bowl itself, since the quarterback and coach for the most likely winners are Trump supporters. I'm going to have to start watching the fucking NBA.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 4:05 PM
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Pitchers and catchers report to Spring Training in 11 days.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 4:35 PM
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toward dusk the masked folks started setting off fireworks and tearing down barricades around the student union building, and instigated the subsequent mayhem in the stress.

See, these are the violent shitheads I worry about when people get excited about punching Nazis. For all we know, they are themselves Nazi agitators/dupes.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 4:40 PM
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And I'm not sure why gswift is so sure

Teo was right, I didn't really have a sense of the exact timeline, I was just kind of bemused by the "peaceful" descriptor thrown in the same breath as "hundreds of people smashing and burning shit".

Who the hell is 154 and what's this usually business? Are there a bunch of protest discussions in the archives I'm not remembering?


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 5:09 PM
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164: NBA is no better. Pick a team to lose in the premier league.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 5:09 PM
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165: But the NBA -- players and coaches -- fucking hate Trump. There's a clip of an NBA player calling the Muslim ban bullshit like 27 times. The interviewer asks him if he wants to rephrase and he says "You can just beep it."

168: Soccer is the McDonald's of sports. It's a homogenized product that's the same everywhere.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 5:54 PM
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But the NBA -- players and coaches -- fucking hate Trump.

Yes! It's wonderful.

Dump football. It's meritless. Embrace basketball today!


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 6:28 PM
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169.last was sort of the point


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 6:31 PM
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Follow up to 166: the right is going to get violent and call it self defense.

I had to put a link condom on that one.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 6:57 PM
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169.last is ridiculous. Spanish soccer is different from English soccer and they're both different from Brazilian. Argentinian is kind of a mix between Italian and English. Portuguese is Brazilian-ish, but more professional. Scottish football is trapped in a time warp, or maybe it's just crap. It's all different, and some of it sucks.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 7:43 PM
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Oh man, I don't think I can read another Zunger post while this sober.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 7:45 PM
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Speaking of witless:

http://www.rollcall.com/news/policy/pentagon-panel-urges-trump-team-expand-nuclear-options


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 7:57 PM
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I'm not sober but I'm not reading anything.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 8:00 PM
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As opposed to the American football which ... only exists in two variants, both played by the same people only a few years a part?


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 8:04 PM
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Great. Expanded nuclear proliferation is on the table. Like we really fucking need that.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 8:04 PM
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175:

The Defense Science Board's position is that Russia, under Vladimir Putin, has threatened to use tactical nuclear weapons first in a war in order to deter the United States from further escalating the conflict -- a posture Moscow calls "escalate to de-escalate."
This is totally true. The Russian doctrine paper I posted recently was all about this. Lower-level nuclear deterrence is central to their thinking.
"We should be looking to strengthen the dividing line between nuclear and conventional, not blurring that line."
That would be nice, but at least one of your actual enemies isn't doing that. Essentially, the Cold War is on again, and nuclear deterrence needs to be thought about again. Note that the report comes from the DOD, not Trumpists, and originates under Obama.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 8:25 PM
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177: At first I thought you meant the second variant was Canadian-rules football, and was not sure how I was going to break it to you that no, Canadians do not pupate into Americans.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 8:26 PM
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Essentially, the Cold War is on again, and nuclear deterrence needs to be thought about again.

Except we're Moscow's puppet now, so....


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 8:43 PM
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So it'll be a nuclear war with the two sides being us, Russia, and Taiwan versus China, Germany, and Mexico.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 8:58 PM
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Until a few days ago it seemed like Israel and Australia were on our side too, but I guess not. For now.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 8:59 PM
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183 is it more about not being on their side?


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 9:41 PM
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What did you do to Israel?


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 9:43 PM
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Apart from triggering Intifada III, but Bibi seems to be up for that anyway.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 9:45 PM
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Apparently Kushner's taken over the Israel dossier from Bannon. So we're against settlements now, surprisingly.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 9:48 PM
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Trump has turned on Bibi.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 9:51 PM
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188: we urge all parties to refrain from taking unilateral actions that could undermine our ability to make progress
Such as, for instance, moving your embassy to Jerusalem. The chaos is horrifying but also heartening. These are clearly not people with a plan.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 02- 2-17 11:35 PM
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I didn't read the link, but isn't the story here that the last person Trump talked to was the king of Jordan?

Or maybe it's all just theater.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 12:14 AM
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I didn't read the link, but isn't the story here that the last person Trump talked to was the king of Jordan?

Not in the link I posted, no. Trump talks to lots of people.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 12:23 AM
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Right, but he spoke with the king on Thursday. They weren't scheduled to meet, the king just found a way to get to him.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 12:35 AM
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Eh, I didn't get whatever soup was going for. Apparently Trump has ruined my ability to understand jokes. I withdraw all comments about soccer at this time.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 1:03 AM
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Yeah, actually in Sweden the antifa movement did a lot to cement together the Sweden Democrats (nostalgic anti-immigrant populists - you get the picture) by beating them up while all respectable opinion went "ooh, horrible neonazis, they deserve it". I think the bottom line is that there are young men who like hitting people, and older, respectable people who like the spectacle of their enemies being hit. We shouldn't dress this up in high principle.


Posted by: NW | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 1:19 AM
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NBA is great from a political point of view. Adam Silver is the best commissioner. The players get *paid* and unless their advisors are crooks they end up rich and comfortable with bad knees instead of brain damage. Even the white coaches speak out against Trump. The league doesn't fight the players over whether black lives matter. The recently got rid of an owner for being racist. The union recently decided to cover healthcare for all retired players. The stars end up owning teams or being Magic Johnson. LeBron endorsed Hilary. And on top of all that, the product is fantastic these days.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 1:57 AM
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The NBA is great, and is as exciting as ever. I used to be a big NBA fan, back in the Dr. J to Barkley era. I even used to have a Sixers season tickets package, back when it was much cheaper. I've been trying to cut back on sports fandom, though, since it leaves me depressed at the end of every season. For sentimental reasons, the NFL is the hardest to give up. Everyone in my family are big Eagles fans and I remember watching Eagles games with them while growing up. My wife is a Seahawks fan. Checking NFL scores on Monday morning is a very ingrained habit. Part of why I like Magary's column is that while he likes pro football, he hates the NFL, which is about where I am.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 3:12 AM
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Also, guaranteed contracts. Chris Bosh may never play basketball again due to blood clots, but he'll get every penny of the remaining $89 million on his contract. In the NFL he'd be out on the street with nothing.

NBA pay and playing conditions are so good that 7-footers who don't even like to play basketball stay in the league.

Also if you haven't been following what Popovich has been saying about Trump, go watch some of it. He's a national treasure. (Also, possibly was a spy for the US during the Cold War.). My favorite (though less serious) Trump-related quote of his is the following. I love it because it so perfectly captures the "two gruff answers" format he's honed over the years (each head coach is required to answer exactly two questions during one of the quarter breaks from the sideline reporter).

Journo 1: "Does your military background immunize you from blowback on your Trump comments?"
Pop: "My service wasn't distinguished enough."
Journo 2: "Was it distinguished enough for a cabinet post?"
Pop: "No, I didn't work for Goldman Sachs."


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 4:25 AM
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There is some fairly startling stuff leaking about that failed raid in Yemen. Not so much that it went wrong - though it does sound like it went fairly badly adrift - but that senior military officials are willing to leak that it was Trump's fault.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 4:34 AM
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195: is this because unlike NFL or MLB, its fan base skews African-American?


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 4:43 AM
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rich and comfortable with bad knees

You cannot be comfortable with bad knees.


Posted by: Opinionated old guy | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 4:48 AM
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Having more African-American fans certainly helps. So does the international nature of the league. (Trump's ban directly affected two current players, one of whom had an away game in Canada that night and almost got stranded. I'm still not sure how he got through, and suspect that it being a private charter instead of commercial flight is what happened.). Both international players and international fans.

It's also just a much more star-driven league, since there are only 5 players at a time, and so the league has to listen to its stars more than other leagues do. And to first approximation the stars are African-American (contrast the NFL where the QBs are the stars and Black people weren't allowed to play QB until the 1990s.)


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 6:11 AM
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That's ok Walt, it wasn't a good joke .


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 6:13 AM
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Black people weren't allowed to play QB until the 1990s

I'm sure Trump will put in an executive order to roll things back to when America was great.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 6:40 AM
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Can we talk about Trump's black history month speech and his national prayer breakfast? The man is truly deranged to an almost Caligula level.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 6:40 AM
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Also, the former PM of Norway was also detained at the airport because he'd been to Iran in the past five years. He was coming to the US to attend the National Prayer Breakfast (I hope he prayed for Arnold) and was held for 24 hours.

On the bright side, at least they're applying the order to white people as well as brown people.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 6:44 AM
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Trump never talked about incest with a sister. Maybe he just doesn't have one.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 6:45 AM
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Caligula would almost be an improvement at this point. Incitatus would do far less damage than Sessions will.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 6:46 AM
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205.2: Has there been a court case for Norwegians also?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 6:46 AM
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207: you know who else got into power thanks to his close connections with law enforcement?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Cal


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 6:49 AM
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208

Fuck. We never did legally establish if we were white, or at least white enough.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 6:49 AM
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Also, this is the most insidious bit from the PM's detention:

"Bondevik said Dulles officials told him he had been detained because of a 2015 law signed by Barack Obama that placed restrictions on travellers from those seven countries, or travellers from elsewhere who had recently visited those countries. "

Yep, blame it on the black man.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/03/former-norway-pm-bondevik-held-washington-dulles-airport-2014-visit-iran


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 6:52 AM
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Yeah I love the blame it on Obama component of this.

||

Worst sandstorm I've seen in the region. Truly unbelievable, I should feel like Lawrence but mostly I'm just worried my flight back to Arrakis will be delayed (where I hear it's also bad).

In job related news the second duck of several has lined up. And it seems I have an inside track.

|>


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 6:58 AM
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Have you seen worst sandstorms when you were in New York?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 7:05 AM
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My this great great grandmother of a storm carry you home, library to library on the Plain of Arrakeen.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 7:10 AM
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I'm coming to the US fairly soon and I'm wondering whether, if they ask me to disclose all the web sites I've visited, I should....disclose them.

As in, all of them. As in, hand over a ream of A4 paper printed with several months' browser history. There you go. Have a nice day!


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 7:23 AM
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196 Part of why I like Magary's column is that while he likes pro football, he hates the NFL, which is about where I am.

I'm not sure I've ever met a pro football fan who doesn't hate the NFL and Roger Goodell especially. I might be prejudiced being from New England, but even my brother who hates the Pats also hates the NFL.

As for the NBA, I lost interest when it became "five guys independently practicing fancy shots." Has it changed back? Same for the NHL, for the most part.


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 7:24 AM
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I didn't know anybody didn't hate the Pats.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 7:24 AM
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Worst sandstorm I've seen in the region. Truly unbelievable, I should feel like Lawrence

Tantalisingly undisclosed: whether St., D.H., T.E., Welk, Block, Lessig, Martin or Jennifer.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 7:27 AM
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215: Just be sure to include www.penisland.com.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 7:27 AM
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Together they FIGHT CRIME.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 7:28 AM
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214 kull wahad.

215 In which Alex is greenroomed and interrogated as to the identity and whereabouts of opinionated grandma.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 7:28 AM
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215: printout? No, no. Recite them. Spelling each one out.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 7:30 AM
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http://www.unfogged.com/archives/comments_15846.html#1941213, http://www.unfogged.com/archives/comments_15846.html#1941214, http://www.unfogged.com/archives/comments_15846.html#1941215, ....


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 7:31 AM
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Accompanied by a detailed and thorough, yet personal and subjective, recitation of all the interpersonal dynamics involved.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 7:41 AM
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"This NMM followed by the name of a recently deceased celebrity. Is ygat some kind of terroristic threat?"


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 7:47 AM
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senior military officials are willing to leak that it was Trump's fault.

How could the Yemen disaster have been Trump's fault? He wasn't even in the situation room at the time.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 7:55 AM
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Accompanied by a detailed and thorough, yet personal and subjective, recitation of all the interpersonal dynamics involved.

This "bob" character you have associated with.... we have concerns.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:00 AM
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In fairness I always thought the President actually watching operations live was ridiculous micromanagement.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:03 AM
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Yes. But not as ridiculous as the president of the United States lying about the New York Times on Twitter regardless of what else is happening.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:05 AM
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Or that www.penisland.com is now just a porn site instead of a pen store.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:06 AM
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The Secret Service has a few questions.about "going Presidential".


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:10 AM
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In fairness I always thought the President actually watching operations live was ridiculous micromanagement.

Sure, but he should at least be there for the first few operations of his term, so he has a clear idea of what goes on.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:11 AM
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Trump's Secret Service codename is Asshole.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:12 AM
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So embarrasing, I got in the wrong airplane seat because I've had a few beers and my eyesight is not what it was so I mistook 16 for 18 on my boarding pass.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:12 AM
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I count no less than 5 crying screaming children on this flight.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:13 AM
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That said, this seems like the military's fuckup. Except to the extent that they fucked up out of some sense of undue pressure coming from the Oval Office to step on the gas with regard to military operations.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:15 AM
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216 - the best NBA teams are very passing-oriented nowadays - lots of ball movement and finding the open guy. (Also lots of three point shots which is less exciting but what can you do).


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:15 AM
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Trump's Secret Service codename is Bullseye.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:19 AM
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238

Not, "Target Practice"?


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:24 AM
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Seriously, what would it take for some insider to arrange for Trump's assassination?


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:26 AM
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You're going to get Alex in trouble.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:27 AM
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I'm sure Pence has thought about it. Maybe this is why Trump relies on his private security detail, rather than the Secret Service.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:29 AM
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242

I wonder if Trump has a food taster.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:29 AM
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Sorry Alex! I hope you enjoy life in Guantanamo or wherever this thread will land you.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:30 AM
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Charley will bring you justice and chocolates, but not necessarily in that order.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:33 AM
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Too soon? Sorry, Charley.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:33 AM
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I suppose a food taster uses a clean fork or spoon for each bite, but it still seems a bit gross. Also, your food would get cold while waiting for the results.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:34 AM
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20 Ask Putin about alpha emitters.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:36 AM
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And an Arabic translation of Moby Dick. He'll have time to learn to read it.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 8:53 AM
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"This NMM followed by the name of a recently deceased celebrity. Is ygat some kind of terroristic threat?"

If Unfogged is The Dead Pool, where's my harpoon gun?


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 02- 3-17 10:05 AM
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64 et al. re: Gorsuch. This is making me wish that Scalia was still alive. (pace Apo). We get Gorsuch on there, and we'll be stuck with him for years.

If Scalia were still on the Court, we could hope to get him out in 5 years or so.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 02- 4-17 4:40 AM
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