THAT'S WHAT YOU THINK
WE FORGOT A "G" BECAUSE WE PAUSED TO EAT A TABLESPOON OF NUTRITIOUS CANE SUGAR.
GLAD TO SEE THAT SOMEONE REMEMBERS THAT OPINIONATED PEOPLE USE ALL CAPS TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE HEARS THEIR OPINION.
So the underlying problem is still there, but the PT keeps it at bay.
I think that's just the way exercise works.
OUR VOICES ARE STRONG, BECAUSE OF ALL THE ENERGY WE GET FROM SUGAR.
I still should get PT. But it seems like a bother.
Regularly scheduled dermatologist visit this week to check up on my moles. Wondering if it's more convenient or embarrassing that this is the week I've developed an unpleasant boil.
If you develop a pleasant boil you really need to worry.
Hmm, they only look at H-Ras which is the less common of the family. They mention that a similar effect is seen in the more common K-Ras but don't do any experiments with it which suggests maybe it didn't work?
I know I was totes like dude, where's the K-Ras, this is slipshod.
K-Ra, K-ra ah-ah-ah!
Ro mah ro-mah-mah
Gaga ooh-la-la!
So who wants to join my new venture that will DISRUPT dyslexia?
We're going to stab people in the eyeball, but just one, so that their brains have an asymmetry to resolve.
There will be an app, don't worry.
Realistically, can't you do taht with contact lenses then? Or laser surgery? I bet there's an answer in the link, which I didn't read.
I still do my entire PT routine three times a week
This will never be me.
OP.4: I'm in the second week of a Couch to 5K training program, because for my 40th birthday my bod gave me forty extra pounds. Stupid bod.
I'm supposed to go to PT for my ankle, but I haven't gone yet, because where do people find the time to drive to the clinic and do physical therapy? And also they gave me a brace to stabilize my ankle when I exercise, and it has worked so well that I feel like the need for PT has receded. Not sure what I'll tell the doctor when I go see him for my progress report. If I don't get around to going to PT before then I guess I'll cancel him too.
HB: I am impressed by your commitment to PT.
My knee surgery really accelerated my aging. Mentally as much as anything. I am much more aware of how easily I might hurt some other body part.
Future Unfogged topics:
"Nursing home, assisted living, or living with your kids?"
"These Medicare cuts are killing me!"
"I was really hoping to have enough money to pay for my grandkids college."
I was actually translating a paper yesterday that touched on the Warburg effect - specifically, it reported that rats inoculated with colon cancer cells and fed a strict ketogenic diet grew smaller tumors and lost less weight than control tumor-bearing rats fed on normal chow. So yes, I think it is an emerging focus of research. (As far as I can see, there've been a few attempts at small-scale human trials, but a properly ketogenic diet is so difficult to stick to that the results have been ambiguous at best.)
How's your bod?
Waiting to be given a date for a total hysterectomy with all the trimmings. I chose the wrong presidential/royal pseud - it should have been Mary Tudor.
There seem to be a lot more hysterectomies done that orchiectomies, yet you rarely hear of a female equivalent to castration anxiety.
My hair has been falling out at worrying rates for the last couple of months, which makes me worry that I have lupus like my sister, and might therefore have to adopt her autoimmune protocol diet. "You'd die for sure," she told me cheerfully. Would I rather be bald or a skeletal orthorexic, I wonder? Maybe I could get enough calories? It sounds fucking terrible, but my hair is somewhat nice-ish ordinarily.
you should probably eat a low sugar diet anyway but some cancers are associated with a high fat diet
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1616815
The Whole Foods now sells individually wrapped, cooked slices of bacon at the register. Because Snickers are for them.
I've been steadily losing weight all year -- about 18-20lbs so far --although still feeling utterly decrepit and aged. However, I had a period in August and early September where, after a health scare, I made a really conscious effort to get more sleep, and I stopped smoking.*
And, after a few weeks, I felt amazing. Loads of energy, and a lot of long term minor niggling pains were gone.
However, mysteriously, I'm back to feeling like utter shit again. Lots of joint pains, poor sleep quality. I'm still not smoking, and I'm still generally maintaining a decent level of activity. So ... no idea. I had a steroid injection for a shoulder injury, and then a fairly intense work schedule, so presumably one or both of those have led to me feeling shit again.
* never really a heavy smoker, more a 'smokes when having a beer' smoker, but it has crept up the past 18 months or so, so I was getting through one or two packs a week.
Stopped smoking and lost weight. Impressive. Now keep it up while juggling knives.
Anyway, in my experience a good definition of middle aged is "occasionally feels like utter shit for no discernible reason."
So really, is there yet any philosophical debate over the ethical obligation to eat a maximally healthy diet vs the obligation to minimize animal suffering? I am, as a lay person, very struck by the power of people's everyday moral conviction that eating properly (for optimal personal health) is one of the most important obligations we have. It's been years since I kept up with the vegan-boosting philosophical literature on diet.
Yeah, I'm sort of used to a certain level of low level shittiness. But, I'd say it's more mid-level shittiness at the moment, after a brief interregnum where I felt really pretty good.
30 is just so very far removed from the world in which I live.
31: Maybe the looming destruction of your homeland is weighing on you? Wish I were kidding, but not really.
31: That's exactly my point. Feeling good is temporary and vanishes for unknown reasons.
Now that I'm not traveling so much, I find that I'm able to eat at McDonald's only once or twice a week. This does make me feel better, but it also means that I'll have spent more than $4 on lunch nearly every day.
I take a b multi-vitamin every day and I swear I notice when I'm a couple hours late taking it. I mentioned it to my doctor and she dismissed it but...I feel depressed and anxious and then be better after taking a vitamin?
30: I'm not on the 'minimize animal suffering' obligation if it bans eating meat entirely (farmed or hunted). For sure, captive food animals should be well treated and killed in a way that doesn't stress them but I don't have a moral problem with eating animals in and of itself. Which seems different than many vegetarians'/vegans' beliefs
My terrible writing becomes super obvious when I post comments.
I feel better when I reach the magical "five-a-day" level of fruits and vegetables. Much better when I'm not forced to use fries to reach #5.
Bringing two threads together - in my (unpopular) opinion, McD's cheeseburgers with extra pickles and onions are the best burger and their fries are the best fries, except for chip-truck fries with malt vinegar.
Also modern (midwest-developed) apple varieties are horrible. Yes, I mean Honeycrisp, etc. I want my apples tart and to lose their shape with heat (...like my men).
I take a b multi-vitamin every day and I swear I notice when I'm a couple hours late taking it. I mentioned it to my doctor and she dismissed it but...I feel depressed and anxious and then be better after taking a vitamin?
All I notice after taking my multi-B vitamin after lunch is that my pee is bright yellow, later.
My understanding is your system absorbs as much/many B vitamins as they're going to, and then you pee the rest out. That shows that your system has enough in it already.
re: 40.1
No. No. No. No. McDonalds burgers are horrible. Burger King (and any number of other chains) are far better.
On the other hand, the fries are fine. But ... sometimes what you want is proper chips.
---
My current favourite is the first on this list:
https://www.dojoapp.co/story/5-burgers-you-probably-dont-know-exist-by-burger-gang-london
The burgers are very good, although I've had better. But ... the fries are really excellent.
It is none-more-hipster. The guy has a fancy moustache and wears a little mid-century style cycling beanie. But, it's good _and_ pretty cheap.
Now this is non-political!
The personal is political!
Ugh. I am such a PT delinquent. I went to a PT years ago after throwing my neck out of whack. The PT gave me exercises to do that I maybe did once. Then a few years ago I got a trapezoid muscle spasm from talking with my phone at my ear and had to wear a neck brace for 3 weeks, but that was with medicaid so it didn't cover PT.
When I remember I do my yoga neck rolls, which probably counts for something, but I'm pretty sure I have the flexibility and musculoskeletal health of an 80 year old man.
I await the performance art of getting a group of people together and having one eat beets, one eat excess vitamin B12, one both, others something blue or green inducing...
I've lost 5 lbs since September, which is the weight I put on in Europe.* It took more work than it used to, and I hope that I can keep it off without having to actively work at it. My method of weight loss is 1) anxiety and 2) eating lots of vegetables. I also eat lots of cupcakes but I'm trying to cut down. A major win was going shopping while famished and not buying cupcakes at Target.
*I want to meet all these Americans who pig out on wine and cheese and beer and pastries in Europe and lose weight.
I'm wondering if there's a market for a diet that consists of green vegetables and cupcakes. Maybe I'll put "Swedish" in the title because calling things Swedish seems to make them trendy, plus ethnic essentialism. The "Swedish grön diet."
It's pretty clear that sugar is awful for us, which is majorly depressing. I really want people to find that sugar is completely fine for you as long as you eat green vegetables every day.
I keep telling you people, coconuts. It's a package deal, Grow coconuts, eat them on the beach.
I want my apples tart and to lose their shape with heat (...like my men).
I laughed.
HB: I am impressed by your commitment to PT.
I just stay at the gym and do it right after class ends. If it helps, I can't figure out how to get around to doing it at home, ever.
I take a b multi-vitamin every day and I swear I notice when I'm a couple hours late taking it. I mentioned it to my doctor and she dismissed it but...I feel depressed and anxious and then be better after taking a vitamin?
When I was pregnant all the time, I got told that I was anemic, which was of course not surprising, but then one doc mentioned that my particular anemia was pernicious anemia, and I got some sort of iron with various extra B-stuff in it. So many little aspects of my health improved enormously.
Actually, I was really diligent with my shoulder physio (which I think was much less rigorous than Heebie's since it made zero difference to the size of my shoulders) until told to stop for a few weeks after the injection. Maybe that's the secret missing ingredient. Maybe it's the lack of shoulder pain that leads to better sleep, which leads to ... etc
Bringing two threads together - in my (unpopular) opinion, McD's cheeseburgers with extra pickles and onions are the best burger
This is true (although I havn't thought to ask for extra pickles onions.)
By all rights, McD's cheeseburgers ought to be terrible (as is, for example, the Quarter Pounder), but for some reason the cheeseburger in particular has just the right balance of weird food additives and mystery meat as to make them weirdly delicious.
I have gained more weight than I've ever had in my life. I keep telling myself at some point I'll be able to move and lose it, which I would like to be the case. Or I'll look like this forever, which would serve me right for the years I felt morally superior for starving myself.
I saw my orthopedist today. We're going to do a week of steroids and my ankle in a brace with a special insert in my shoe after the week of NSAIDs with my foot in a boot hurt like hell to the point I woke in the night because of pain. I guess I don't have to worry about that when steroids will mean I don't sleep at all. By the time I maybe get referred to surgery it will be too late to take advantage of having paid my out-of-pocket expenses to the maximum for the year, I assume. (I got mad at him for coming back from my x-ray results with "yup, sure is scoliosis!" because *I* get to be flippant and jaded like that but YOU don't!) I guess there will be PT in the future too eventually, once we know what will make me better and not worse. I'll get more MRIs to give info on that if I'm not doing better next week.
(which I think was much less rigorous than Heebie's since it made zero difference to the size of my shoulders)
Or mine were just outrageously wimpy before hand.
Mine actually seem to be so bog-standard that people see me and randomly say things like, "Oh, you're doing your Ys and Ts!" or whatever.
It is interesting the difference between bodies in how they respond to exercise. My friend and I were doing the same workout classes and she ended up with neck muscles large enough she couldn't button the top button of a button-down shirt (sorry, too many 'buttons' there). I, on the other hand, still looked scrawny but developed the first definition of my arm muscles. She was also more athletic than me so maybe it was because she was starting from a different baseline (having defined arm muscles).
Anyone remember that website that came out during the Olympics and compared your body size to Olympians? That was great.
I was persisting in my weight loss for so long it was kind of freaky, but I knew something would change sooner or later, and indeed it did. I'm up about 15 pounds from my minimum, 10 pounds from my prior average, probably related to weird occasional food-binging behavior. But I'm not gaining any more, so this is a pretty minor setback as they go; I'm still a very good weight to be, still exercising, all that.
58
I remember in gym class we learned about ectomorphs, mesomorphs, and endomorphs. I don't know if that's now considered outdated pseudoscience, but it seemed to have some commonsensical truth element.
59
It's great that you are able to keep most of the weight off for such a long period of time. 15 lbs is very little in the scheme of things.
I've been lifting weights a lot since the spring. I've never done heavy deadlifts before, and they're fantastic for improving my posture. Other than that, I don't think there's much in the way of visible effects.
Try dropping the weights on your foot and wearing sandals.
Unless there's a particular set of visible effects you want.
Being a parent is weird for body stuff, maybe more for people whose children resemble them. But Mara at almost 10 is 9 inches shorter than l am now and maybe 9 pounds lighter than I was through my teens and how did no one notice??? Because she's thin enough that anything less than how solid she is should be obvious.... But I guess no one was watching me like I watch her and I hope she'll turn out better for it. (Her recent procedure with Botox in her stomach lining helped a ton and she is in the midst of a month off appointments, after which she'll probably get an official diagnosis for her genetic disorder and we'll move on to whatever comes next.)
61: I'm trying to start to use resistance bands.
My new things is that at a bare minimum I do the 7 minute workout first thing in the morning. The free Johnson and Johnson app is great.
64: It's really hard to visually compare weights from one person to another. You might have looked healthy at your teenage weight, regardless of how it relates to Mara's now.
That was me -- the phone dropped my name.
That is true. This one time, I had a lift a boy other than my own (he got stuck up a tree) and I was very pleasantly surprised about how light he was. I figured I was going to injure my back because I had to reach so high to grab him.
21: It sounds awfully unethical to inoculate humans with colon cancer cells. Even small-scale humans.
21: It sounds awfully unethical to inoculate humans with colon cancer cells. Even small-scale humans.
Cards on the table - I'm slightly btock and I definitely hit the post button twice, that time
As I think I've mentioned, I cut soda almost entirely out of my diet and lost 20, maybe even 30 pounds over the next year. I'm not sure how much I lost because despite knowing I'd been gaining wait, I resisted tracking my weight because I didn't feel like it had reached the unhealthy point yet. I cut soda partly because I did get a blood test where they warned me about sugars, but maybe more because I'd started drinking more coffee during the day and soda at home afterwards seemed to be affecting my sleep more than it used.
I did also have plantar fasciitis for a while and later tore a calf muscle and couldn't walk for a month, and maybe recovering from both of those injuries helped me lose weight. But I think the weight loss was under way before I really picked up hiking again. The heel pain was almost a three-year problem.
I eventually bought a scale because I started to wonder if I was gaining too much weight for what seemed like small changes in diet and exercise. Now I'm in a weird state where it's hard to figure out what pants will fit because my waist is definitely thinner but my thighs are relatively large for it. Some clothes I've had to stop wearing for bagginess reasons.
The conclusion of this long comment is that I kind of want to start regular exercise now, but don't really have the discipline. Maybe I'll just focus on getting new pairs of pants.
Pennsylvania has no sales tax on clothing. Unless you buy like a $2,000 pair of pants.
I've lost about 30 lbs. since my heart attack. And then I found a bill for $2,000.
I guess I did some physical therapy for both my heel and calf problems, if following the advice of the doctors counts without having visited an actual physical therapist.
I still do the heel exercises every now and then, which are maybe counterintuitively toe-based exercises, like scrunching up a towel with your toes.
I stopped the exercises, which I don't even remember, for my calf as soon as I could stop wearing the brace that pretty much immobilize my ankle. I think I was supposed to meet with a physical therapist but when i started to walk again the improvement was so fast I didn't. I do try to be more cautious about pushing off with my feet now, especially when on an incline, since that's how I got the initial injury. I've done hikes with nearly 5000 ft of climbing since then, so I think I'm ok.
73: what if I buy 2000 $1 pairs of pants?
No. Somehow, for clothing to be taxed it has to get into the "luxury" end of things. I can't find a clear definition of that, so I just pulled out a big number.
74: That's pretty good, especially considering your state invented Spam.
re: 68
Yeah, I've had to warn friends who were picking up xelA that they are about to get a fright. He's not a fat kid at all, but he feels like he's made of lead. We have a friend whose son is the same age as xelA, and we hang out together sometimes. His son feels like he's about 1/3 the weight of xelA, and when they run about with no t-shirt on, he's all ribs. Whereas with xelA you can actually see the fairly large muscles on his back and shoulders. My brother was the same when he was a toddler.*
I respond pretty quickly to weight lifting type exercise. That may be because I'm starting from a fairly low baseline, but I tend to find, if I stay uninjured, I get visible results pretty fast.
* I was much more the scrawny type.
And re: visual weights. When I was 17 I weighed about 120lbs, and when I was 22 I weighed about 175lbs, and I doubt anyone who didn't know me really well, would have seen much difference in my physical appearance. A broadening of the shoulders maybe. I could still wear the same jeans (although there were a little tighter).
My lady mother the Queen (Henrietta Maria?) has a fever which has driven her out of her wits. I must perforce attend her and ensure that she does not try to climb from her bed because she will fall and injure herself if she tries. As I type indite she is convinced there are two cats in the room behind me. "Là, les chats, sont autour de vous! [more quietly] Doesn't understand a word: perhaps she isn't English"
Earlier, she had said "I read in one of the Sunday papers that you can eat a mouse raw — at least if you scrape it right."
The things you learn from your mother's deliria
Physical therapy: ay doctor's appointment is tomorrow. I can juuust barely touch my little finger to the palm of my hand. I'm not even sure if it counts as the palm, my little finger is just touching that pad right between the fingers and the distal tranverse. Link for the confused. The doctor is going to recommend physical therapy if I can't touch my finger to my palm, so we'll have to see if that's good enough for him. My hand is still definitely impaired in other ways, but that's the metric I've been watching out for. The elbow is almost completely recovered.
I've been wrapping my little and ring fingers together. I kind of wonder if I still need to. I guess I'll find out tomorrow. I'm getting pretty good at typing with one fewer finger than I should have. I'm a bit proud of that but am still looking forward to getting the use of that back.
Over the weekend I got a new bike helmet. Yesterday I ran some errands by bike and didn't have any big problems, like being unable to brake with fingers wrapped together or something. I used a bikeshare bike because, if there were problems, that way I could just park it and take a bus home. Today I tried to ride my own bike to bike to work for the first time since the accident. I got halfway down the block when my gearshift got stuck in my tire. We had thought the bike wasn't damaged by the accident, but apparently it was. Wish I had thought to test it at some point before now. In hindsight I was lucky I didn't go flying all over again this morning; a tire not turning could have been a lot worse. If I can't fix it tonight I'll have to take it to the shop. Ugh.
As for picking up heavy weights, I didn't try to pick Atossa up over my head for several weeks, but I've been doing it again now and then for the past week or so. She likes it, and I can do it, but still not quite as well as I should.
I've seen... 9 different PT folk over the past few years for a variety of ailments. The variation of efficacy across this population is really kinda bonkers.
For my latest hip ailment, it took a full year from the initial agonizing onset to having a firm diagnosis and an effective treatment plan, thanks specifically to the latest PT.
A thing that kinda kills me about modern medicine is how it presents this facade of commodification, but a patient's success in getting effective treatment for a condition is often tremendously contingent on getting in front of the right providers.
It just struck me that Heebie has been having neck spasms the entire length of time I've been commenting here. How unpleasant.
I'm going to eat falafel for lunch, because it's probably healthier than chicken strips with fries.
There's a place nearby with a sign saying they have "chicken tikka masala", but I'm not sure what that is so I haven't tried it yet.
88: the national dish of Britain. (Really.) Baked marinaded chicken in a sort of tomato-based curry sauce.
I'd rather have chicken and moles than chicken and tikka if a tikka is a mammal.
You've never had chicken tikka masala? It's fucking great. Actual connoisseurs of Indian food sneer at it (it may not originally even be from India), but it goes great with beer. It's like the cheeseburger of Indian food.
it may not originally even be from India
It's not. Chicken tikka is from India, and masala sauce is from India, but the idea of putting the one in the other comes from Glasgow.
As for diet, I think ours is worse than usual these days. I blame the two-year-old, for one thing. We try to expose her to new foods but I think she's wearing us down. Some days, she eats nothing but fruit, cheese, and yogurt. Healthy but boring.
47
*I want to meet all these Americans who pig out on wine and cheese and beer and pastries in Europe and lose weight.
I have two theories that may account for this. First, those pastries may be loaded with sugar but they're also tiny, and the tourists has one or two of them stretched out for an hour in a fancy café along with a tiny cup of coffee, because they're taking in the French air or something. Second, they then proceed to walk for 5 miles a day. General tourist stuff and also being in a place with better public transportation and worse, or at least alien, roads.
95: That's the story I've always heard, but according to Wikipedia that is disputed.
The variation of efficacy across this population is really kinda bonkers.
That's been my experience as well. Average PT is just okay. Moderately helpful and probably worth doing. But when I've worked with a physical therapist who's particularly good it's amazing how much of a difference it makes.
Now that my stepdaughter has moved out she refuses to eat anything but junk food and has gained a lot of weight.
Just make sure she can still fit in the oven.
83: PT and effective massage both seem to be things that are presented as "just see the technician", but there's a huge difference in effort and competence.
My wife's been struggling with a frozen shoulder for almost a year now. PT hurts and helps; fortunately she's found a good therapist and can usually get appointments with her.
The real variation has been with her doctors. Some seems to read test results and prepare for appointments, while others freewheel and read and process them while she's in the room or on the phone. The most annoying ones are the ones who don't listen.
I can't be expected to try everybody's cheap, bastardized cuisine just because it's convenient.
And then I tweaked something in my back at the gym this morning. Not incapacitated, but annoying.
Actually, that sounds exactly like something I would be expected to do.
97: the Asian sketch show "Goodness Gracious Me!" had a running joke about the British Indian father who insists that something typically foreign is in fact Indian (the Royal family, Superman etc) but I think even he would shy at claiming chicken tikka masala.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJa0OCbDS6U
I'm reasonably certain that Superman is more American than British.
Yes, they did it for all sorts of foreign stuff, not just British: Leonardo da Vinci, Jesus, Superman etc.
Jesus was also American, according to most Alabama Republicans.
God the Son is clearly, like America, under God the Father; His divisibility, however, is a matter of considerable dispute.
I feel pretty happy overall with my bod, but I feel like if mid-20s me were this consistent and diligent about working out, she would have been smoking hot, and all I'm managing is staving off decline. I blame the kids.
96: My guess is that it's both the extra walking, and not snacking because of being busy sightseeing.
111. He was, he was!
113: yeah, I did realize at some point that I spent my years of likely peak hotness in college wearing hideous baggy clothes, hacking my hair short in the bathroom, carrying a 40-pound backpack everywhere and never smiling or making eye contact. Some of that was (probably) gender-dysphoric, but given that I ended up with a relatively stable cis-feminine identity, it seems a bit ironic. (Chicago was an interesting place to be a queer girl since they had that "ugly chick" complex. I've never been sure how much it has changed since the great upscaling of the college since the early aughts.)
OT bleg:
Hey folks, I hope it's not impertinent to change the subject. I'm hoping for input from the lawyers in the house (and the non-lawyers!) on this, uh, situation:
My partner bought a brand new cargo van back in June -- June 28 -- paid for in full. $32,500. This came with lifetime oil changes and routine maintenance from the dealership.
Two months later -- August 26 -- he brought it in for its first oil change, and: they wrecked it. Their service people, in driving the van into their service bay, somehow banged it into the side wall/door of the bay, such that the side panel and roof were damaged (dented), badly enough that the damage went through to the interior wall of the van as well.
They expressed regret and explained that of course they would repair the damage, and provided him with a loaner van in the meantime. After understandable anger and jaw-dropping, etc., my partner said, "I want a new replacement van, not a van with somewhat extensive body work in place of the brand new van I just drove off your lot 60 days ago." They said 'the numbers don't work for us to do that.'
So fine, okay fine, you dickwads, repair it.
Nearly two more months go by without a word from them, my partner driving the loaner van all this time. Finally he calls -- on October 12 -- to ask WTF is up, and they reply that 'the body work is done, but the axle is on back-order.' What? Oh, it turns out they also broke the axle (don't know which one).
Huh. My partner repeats to them: Right, so I need you to provide me with a replacement van. NOT a repaired 60-day old van with body work and a replacement axle. [You fuckers.]
Their reply: We can do that, but it will cost you an additional $3000 for us to put you in this new replacement van.
What would you do? What if any legal options are available here? I mean, c'mon, a dealership can't trash your vehicle on a routine oil change visit and just give it back to you repaired ... right? I mean, come on!
I ask all this because my partner the other day basically said that he obviously wasn't handling this well, and was out of ideas, and I offered to help. What leverage do we have (aside from the pathetic move of threatening to try to destroy their reputations)?
Oh good lord - sorry for the length!
He needs to find and hire a lawyer.
yeah, I'd think a sternly worded letter from a lawyer would help them see things his way.
If the axle broke and the roof has dents, I think they dropped the fucking thing off the lift.
Yeah, I don't have much of a better idea than getting a lawyer.
Your state attorney general -- Maryland, right? -- has a Consumer Protection Division that will take complaints against a business, and also offers arbitration/mediation services. You might get some satisfaction from mediation through the AG's office: http://www.marylandattorneygeneral.gov/Pages/CPD/default.aspx
Seconding 118. Sic a lawyer on them.
IANAL, and I'm sure outcomes will vary greatly depending on details like where you are and what day of the week the van was purchased, but sue them. They owe your partner a new van, and at this point he'd probably rather have the cash value of it rather than another van from these people, and costs incurred due to getting jerked around for the past five months.
If the numbers don't work for the dealership, that's their problem, and/or their insurance company's problem.
I say go ahead and sue them because I think that disposing the witnesses would likely result in either perjury or a really funny story.
The downside of hiring a lawyer is that it will cost an amount that's not insignificant compared to what you're going to recover. The upside is that if you sue them, they need to either pay for a lawyer or default, and it costs them just as much as it does you, so it's a good threat. Psychologically, you want to get across to them that that you absolutely will sue them for the principle of the thing. But you're better off if that's on some level an empty threat, and you're willing to take a settlement something less than a new van.
117 Its an interesting story. I don't have any help to offer but I was glad to read it.
No matter how good the repair, there's no way this doesn't shave several thousand dollars off the resale value of the van.
Of course, the odds that the repair is good seem lower than average.
Generally if someone hurts your property you are entitled to recover from them the fair market value of what you lost, plus compensation for incidental harms caused by the injury (e.g., loss of use). You're not entitled to the replacement value for a brand new item (because that would give you a mild windfall). It's possible that the van had depreciated by $3000 during the period between when it was bought new and immediately before it was damage at the shop. That would make what they owe essentially new van-$3000, plus provision of a van during the period of loss. If that's true, their offer may be fair. In any event, you need to factor in depreciation. The key is figuring out a reasonable estimate of depreciation on the van, and bargaining from there. Not your lawyer, not legal advice, I wouldn't get up in the morning for a $30,000 case, etc.
Also, the anticipated maintenance costs will be higher than average.
IME shady people don't like the threat of someone who knows what they're talking about and is willing to do what it takes and will generally fold pretty quickly. Hiring a lawyer to write a strongly worded letter shouldn't be too expensive and should probably get you decent results.
e.g., loss of use
In legal terms, I that's "loss of consortium". Don't let any lawyer you hire tell you otherwise.
123: If the numbers don't work for the dealership, that's their problem, and/or their insurance company's problem.
No shit, right?
LB gets it right here:
125: The downside of hiring a lawyer is that it will cost an amount that's not insignificant compared to what you're going to recover.
Yes: it seems to me that even hiring a lawyer to send a sternly worded letter might cost as much as the $3000 the dealership is asking for to provide a new replacement van. Lawyers: is that true? How much would we expect to owe a lawyer for a threatening letter?
While I love the idea of making them pay for their efforts in making this right, my partner just wants to come out of this with either a new replacement van, or a complete refund. Preferably the former. I *think* the dealership's thinking is that the (mere) 60 days of use on his van before he brought it in for the oil change dropped its value by, in their estimation, $3000.
Continuing LB:
But you're better off if that's on some level an empty threat, and you're willing to take a settlement something less than a new van.
The $3000 they want to provide a replacement does constitute a settlement, no?
128: the odds that the repair is good seem lower than average.
One of the repair guys at their service department said early on, "The last time we had to do this, it didn't come out so good."
The last time?
Ah. My 133 before seeing Halford's 129.
A threatening letter would cost $3000? IANAL but I won't charge you that much.
129: you need to factor in depreciation. The key is figuring out a reasonable estimate of depreciation on the van, and bargaining from there.
Depreciation is only a factor if he accepts his repaired van back, right? Only in that case would he have to be getting into whether they actually owe him money on top of the repaired van.
Or, are you saying that we'd have to figure whether their apparent estimate of $3000 depreciation on his van for the 60 days he drove it is plausible ... Okay. I see.
136 made me laugh: every time I deal with lawyers it costs way more than I think it should. My brother and I were just charged $275 for a 20-minute phone call related to selling my mother's house. But let's not get side-tracked here.
I wouldn't accept the repaired van back unless they gave you more than $3,000.
The probably-too-cynical number I'm used to hearing is that the value of a new vehicle drops in half when you drive it off the lot. But 10% in instant depreciation seems entirely within the bounds of possibility.
Yeah, I'd want cash rather than that van.
Instant depreciation is a thing, but when the people who sold you the vehicle and the people who fucked it up and the same, I would expect them to be a little flexible on the concept.
"I can't operate on this van, it's my own product!" How can this be?!?
Ok, Heebs, the geeblet appendectomies are all yours.
Parsimon -- Are you the kind of person who can credibly make social media threats? Combination of going to the AG's office and threatening to be all over FB and Yelp with this might be productive.
140, 141: Yeah. Thanks, everyone. Halford, your explanation in very plain terms helps to clear ideas: as I said, my partner was beginning to run around in mental circles on this, and this will help.
LB, thanks for pointing in 121 to the MD Consumer Protection Division. Will take a look.
I'll be suggesting to my partner, though, that he take the $3000 deal (with much irritation). If he decides to do so, he of course will not be bringing the replacement van in to them for complimentary oil changes. So I guess that's also a loss.
Tell him to least counter with $1,500.
146: Not really hugely active on social media, no.
In terms of what might be productive, what would I be looking for? A complete replacement (no extra $3000)? Halford has just explained that that's not necessarily reasonable. I thought.
Hm. A counter offer isn't a bad idea.
Are you the kind of person who can credibly make social media threats?
Or just antisocial eclectic webzine media threats?
Are you the kind of person who can credibly make social media threats?
It's never good practice to put on someone's Twitter feed that you know where they live and own a switchblade.
Class Action!
$1,000 for a new one is probably a pretty good deal.
I'm sure you can get a letter written for under $500, but then if they don't just decide to give your fellow a new van free, you'll end up spending more. And it'll go up quickly.
I'm going to disagree with Elbie on the comparative legal expenses: the dealership (and/or its carrier) has a zillion identical cases, thus templates for everything. (Hell, there's probably an arbitration clause buried on the back of the service order he signed.)
Lifetime oil changes and maintenance that were part of the original purchase have some definite value, possibly well over than $3000. So he paid for those but never got them. So more than depreciation is lost if he takes only a new van as recompense.
I'd get that letter sent out. I'd actually also be careful taking a new or repaired van from them. Something might mysteriously go wrong with it.
Charley has a fair point in 153. I was somehow picturing the opposition as hapless small business schmucks, but of course they're not. And I agree with DaveWhosePseudIRemainTroubledBy that I wouldn't take a car from them, I'd want cash. Unless, come to think, it was a new car and a significantly better deal and you could get an independent mechanic to check it out.
I'd get that letter sent out.
What would such a letter say at this point, Dave? What are we asking for?
- Unfortunately, I am off momentarily. But do let me know what you think such a letter would say.
You can use Edmunds' True Cost to Own feature here to estimate both depreciation and cost of maintenance on the van. I ran an estimate for a Chevy express cargo van which estimates one-year depreciation at about $9,000, and the 5-year cost of mainteance at about $3,200.
So, check, but the depreciation estimate for the new van is probably fair, and maybe the $3,000 is roughly fair. It's unclear whether they'd give you the maintenance plan as part of the $3,000 for the new van (of course you wouldn't want to take it there for maintenance, but it was part of the original purchase price and may be part of the purchase price for the replacement van). Maybe you argue that you want a new van but WITHOUT the maintenance plan (for obvious reasons), and the value of the maintenance plan is about $3,000, and that's also roughly what the 3-month depreciation on the van is, so therefore you're entitled to a new van (without the maintenance plan) for no money out of pocket. That at least gives you a basis to start negotiating and maybe pay less than $3,000 for the new van. Maybe that can help get them down from the $3,000, maybe not.
A car may be a lot easier for them to justify to whoever they are accountable to than cash. If it's brand new and has anything wrong with it, you're in punitive damages territory. One would expect that they'd be smart enough to avoid that . . .
Your partner can also contact the maker of the van, as they might be willing to lean on the dealer.
Has he been in touch with his own insurance company? He might have to pay his deductible, but their lawyers would certainly go after the dealership!
Maybe in punitive damages territory. I haven't looked at the Maryland pattern jury instruction on punitives for a decade at least, and obviously if he agreed to arbitrate and not claim punitives, then your mileage could definitely vary.
At least here, standard auto insurance doesn't usually cover errors made in repairs by mechanics, so the insurance company wouldn't do much. But maybe that's not the case under your policy.
Of course, does driving into the building (if that's what happened) count as "errors made in repairs"?
Obviously, when this is all done, you take a shit on the hood of whatever is the most expensive thing they have in the showroom.
I'm with moby. I'm still in horsey jail and will be for one more week, after which my doctor wants me to stay in phoenix for two more weeks to make sure I'm stable outside the walled garden where they keep the good scissors locked up. my bod is in weirdly good shape maybe? I've been queasy still though less so and steadily losing weight to my low-end grad school weight; combination unnerving and unhealthy triumphant that would be better if I had clothes that fit. I've been getting exercise but have to be undernourished at some level. also had 7 days of migraines that have receded to a headache today. don't like paying 1300 a day to lie in my room, although I've been making all my appointments and group therapy. tomorrow I'm off to the mayo to get blessed botox and occipital nerve block from my skilled but dubious neurologist. they won't let my family come and I don't know if I want to bring the tech from here in with me so I don't know what to do. I'll report. they're driving me a long way but it's got to be like this or I'd be getting discharged and readmitted. I'm reading the magic mountain, just for laughs.
I'm with moby.
Maybe don't mention that until you're out.
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I'm saying this here for reasons, but if that fucking dipshit technocrat Kaler had any goddamn honor he would pay back the student services fees spent on bringing a dipshit fascist to campus from his own pocket and then resign in disgrace.
Fascists!
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Good to hear from you, alameda. I'd been worrying a little bit.
The "hapless small business schmucks" interpretation is easy to arrive at when considering the challenges posed to them by an oil change.
Glad to hear you're getting better alameida. Keep it up!
156: I'd get a lawyer to do it, because people pay attention to them, and would expect to see something along the lines of Halford's 157, for example: 1. I want a new van. 2. I don't want maintenance for life on that van. 3. I won't pay anything to correct your mistakes. 4. If I don't get the above, I will sue take appropriate action*. Mind you, IANAL, and an actual lawyer would be able write something more quietly terrifying.
* I have read that literally threatening to sue someone often cuts no ice, but a vague promise of further action does.
I'm always making vague promises of further action.
I have found it, the most thorough violation of the analogy ban in history.
Franchise models are fantastic for sucking up profit on the upside while avoiding responsibility for incompetence on the downside.
Here's hoping dickhead doctor reflects on recent news reports & keeps hands to himself!! Solidarity from SF and keep on keeping on my dear!
157, 174: Thanks guys.
It turns out that apparently the lifetime oil changes/maintenance deal applies to *any* dealership that trades in that make of automobile (though we need to double-check on this), so these particular jokers can be avoided. Assuming that's true, a new replacement vehicle with the same sort of maintenance plan would be wanted. And I'll check out the depreciation calculator.
On the CTM subthread, tikka means dry - the chicken is rubbed with dry spices before cooking. Chicken tikka is a dish in itself. Obviously CTM makes no sense because you douse the dry-spiced chicken in the masala (i.e. the sauce) but it does work.
As for physical stuff, recently I learned: my ballet teacher was hella right about tensing the core muscles just before you release and bend back into a cambré. I got away with it doing them slow, but doing the one-count version made my back angry. With the correction, though, all is good.
Also, complexes are a great way to lift weights if you want to hit pretty much everything all at once and feel good about it.
Thirdly, if you're going to do heavy overhead presses, make sure you do the full stretch-the-bar and lockout, it's easier on the shoulders.
I'm not sure if I've had chicken tikka masala, but I've definitely had chicken tikka and I really like it.