Re: Guest Post - Conspiracy Theorists Weekend Longread

1

Great. Sleeping at night is overrated anyway.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-26-19 2:37 PM
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It's an interesting piece. The "conspiracy theorists as believers in an ordered world" is plausible and on the face of it squares neatly with the distribution of authoritarian personalities (followers and leaders both) - believing in convoluted conspiracies under which somebody is in charge impose less cognitive load than accepting no-one is. The philosopher mentioned in the piece has some interesting-looking pieces. And the authoritarian bit.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 01-26-19 3:42 PM
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I have a Magical Trump Thinker in my FB feed. She doesn't post Qanon stuff, but she often shares these lengthy posts about how Trump is playing nine-dimensional chess and just you wait!

The latest is about how Trump's complete capitulation over the shutdown is...actually this clever trick, and Trump will declare a national emergency and then build the wall so quickly that, even though a liberal judge will eventually order a halt to construction, by that time the wall will already be built, booyah take that libs!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 7:54 AM
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The style construction that I see from my last remaining FB occasion-ultra-rightwingers is often clickbait titled something like "I thought something seemed off about the media's coverage of [scandal]!...turns out it's [click through]!" About things which would in theory horrify a random conservative Texan, like kids in migrant camps or whatever.


Posted by: heebie | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 8:28 AM
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5

Media: Pelosi was playing chess, Trump was playing checkers.
Nixon Foundation: Don't bring the dog into it.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 9:54 AM
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6

I wonder how much pop culture feeds into this, and in particular the kind of plotting that supervillains do. If you've been brought up in a world where Bond villains plan to hijack nuclear weapons, or whatever the basis of today's superhero find do, that kind of paranoia must seem more plausible. My parents'generation, and mine, believed horrible dehumanising things. But not this style of horrible dehumanising thing.


Posted by: Nw | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 11:06 AM
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7

4: It's like their brains function like a steam engine, rather than a rational calculating machine. When there's an inconvenient fact, pressure builds in their brain, and they simply look for a valve to relieve the pressure.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 11:07 AM
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I was at MOA a few months ago, waiting for a bus while a white woman in her 30s, clearly at least middle class, had a long phone conversation with a relative about the necessity of buying MOAR COLLOIDAL SILVER from Alex Jones's snake oil website. This country has lost whatever damned mind it had to begin with.

Also, the CIA killed Wellstone.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 11:25 AM
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9

5 is great


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 11:30 AM
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10

6: Neil Gaiman beat you to it.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 11:35 AM
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5 is great.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 11:47 AM
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6 is a very interesting thought. The conspiratorial style obviously is basic, as with witchcraft scares, which I think are basically universal. I think the simplest explanation is to take modern fiction as a new form of that old impulse (OPINIONATED ARTHUR MILLER), but of course things change too. And tentpole Hollywood with its assumption of audience stupidity maybe tends to pull the mainstream toward that level.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 11:58 AM
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13

COLLOIDAL SILVER

There was no colloidal.


Posted by: Opinionated Rudy | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 12:25 PM
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Having looked up theories about the origins of the "Q" in QAnon, they all seem too lofty. My money is on the Star Trek character. Or maybe that's the loftiest theory of them all.*

* Seriously, I don't know why that speculation isn't in the Wikipedia article, which is the extent of my research. No one's made the connection in a citable format between people who probably watch a lot of sci-fi** and the name 'Q'?

** Not that there's anything wrong with that.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 2:38 PM
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15

I think you need to ask yourself who is keeping Star Trek out of the discussion and why.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 2:47 PM
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https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&q=from%3Arikergoogling%20q&src=typd


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 2:51 PM
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17

I was recently reading tweets from notorious Kremlin asset under deep cover Sarah Kendzior, and wondering how easily I can separate my native sympathy for her basic view of Trump's motives from my learned (?) ability to consider all the available evidence. I guess I'll just quote from "The Paranoid Style in American Politics" (free from Harper's!) on the self-reinforcing nature of conspiracy beliefs:

Since the enemy is thought of as being totally evil and totally unappeasable, he must be totally eliminated-- if not from the world, at least from the theatre of operations to which the paranoid directs his attention. This demand for total triumph leads to the formulation of hopelessly unrealistic goals, and since these goals are not even remotely attainable, failure constantly heightens the paranoid's sense of frustration. Even partial success leaves him with the same feeling of powerlessness with which he began, and this in turn only strengthens his awareness of the vast and terrifying quality of the enemy he opposes.

Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 4:03 PM
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18

Before you know it, you're pondering murdering your nephew to prevent him from becoming like his granddad before fleeing to an isolated planet where the local fauna happily gives you Green milk to drink.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 4:59 PM
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19

If someone sold colloidal silver rebranded as nanotech they'd make millions.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 5:33 PM
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20

Colloidal silver is just a plot by Big Ag.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 5:36 PM
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21

Is it the same as that schnapps with gold flakes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 6:10 PM
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22

20 is excellent.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 7:37 PM
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23

22 fa is killing it in this thread.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 8:28 PM
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24

No jinx! No jinx!


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 01-27-19 8:39 PM
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Applause for 20.

Having looked up theories about the origins of the "Q" in QAnon, they all seem too lofty. My money is on the Star Trek character.

No one's suggested the James Bond character?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 2:35 AM
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26

But surely colloidal silver is a plot by Very Small Ag?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 2:40 AM
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27

No one's suggested the James Bond character?

Have you considered the possibility that they're the same character?

That's part of the conspiracy.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 5:57 AM
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28

That last point, about it being hard to shed your parents' worldview because so much of what they told you when you were little was true and reliable, is solid. I haven't moved that far from my parents politically -- they're pretty reliable Democrats, of the "in an ideal world plutocrats would be stripped of all their assets to fund a supportive, humane welfare state," variety. But they have their weird points, and I will still occasionally catch myself stating something as obviously, unquestionably true, that is clearly insane, because I heard it from Mom or Dad when I was twelve.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 6:02 AM
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29

My grandma told me that you should always eat the crust on bread because that's where the vitamins are. I believed that until I was in my thirties.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 6:41 AM
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You should always eat the crust on bread because it's the best bit. If you have bread and the crust is not the best bit, then you have shitty bread and should buy the stuff elsewhere in future.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 6:50 AM
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31

SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO MAKE DO


Posted by: OPINIONATED GERMAN SOLDIERY | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 6:53 AM
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32

How many places do you think there are to buy bread in a HFCS belt town with a few thousand people?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 6:58 AM
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29 Did she also tell you that about the potato skin? Because I still think that is true. If she also told you that about bananas she was just trolling you tho.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 7:05 AM
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34

She did tell me that about the potato skins.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 7:11 AM
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She didn't suggest filling them with cheese and bacon, thus I'm not in line to inherit an appetizer fortune.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 7:25 AM
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36

30 also true about potato skins, at least baked potatoes. (Why do people put them in foil? This is wrong.)


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 7:52 AM
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37

You aren't supposed to eat the foil.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 8:49 AM
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38

Yes you are, why else would it say "EDIBLE gold foil" on the packet?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 8:51 AM
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39

It's just dreadfully tacky and arriviste.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 8:51 AM
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40

re: 28

Yeah, my Dad is a basically an anarchist misanthrope. His politics are fairly sound, in the sense that he's not a racist, he's not a homophobe (he was very explicit when I was a kid in talking about his gay and/or non-white friends, of whom he had many). For a Scottish working class Glaswegian ex-squaddy who grew up in the 50s and 60s, he's amazingly progressive. But he's moved from a solidly socialist worldview towards one which has McManusian elements of despair/disgust at society and the people in it, and I think he basically thinks people have made their bed and they can fucking lie in it.* He's very well read, but I occasionally catch myself repeating something he's said, and have to rewind and check it's not one of his madder assumptions.*

* i.e. die in some ecological catastrophe, or suffer at the hands of predatory capitalists.
** sometimes those mad assumptions are actually quite well grounded in his deep reading in various areas, but sometimes they are auto-didactic strangeness that he's invented from somewhere, and it's bullshit.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 8:55 AM
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28: I'm of two minds about that claim. I see the author's worry -- that these kids are going to have a hard time distinguishing reality from conspiracies. On the other hand, my parents certainly believed every last conspiracy about the Clintons (Vince Foster!), listened to Limbaugh non-stop, told me never to trust the media or join a union, believed the government was coming to get their guns, tapping their phones, etc., and... well, I seem not to have those beliefs, but manage not to microwave tin foil. I have students who honestly believed that only morally corrupt people drank coffee until they got to college. I guess it's possibly that the current group of conspiracy theorists is more insular but most people manage OK.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 8:55 AM
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42

To 38 and 39


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 8:56 AM
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43

I have students who honestly believed that only morally corrupt people drank coffee
What? I thought all Americans drank coffee.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 9:02 AM
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44

Yes. And?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 9:05 AM
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45

No, Mormons do not drink coffee. They have been counseled not to drink coffee by their leaders and by God

https://www.mormon.org/blog/do-mormons-drink-coffee


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 9:16 AM
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46

They only drink heated Dr. Pepper.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 9:24 AM
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47

It's not really about the caffeine -- Mormons are allowed to drink caffeinated soft drinks.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/01/mormon-caffeine-policy-cl_n_1848098.html


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 9:29 AM
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It seems the legal status of decaffeinated coffee in Mormonism is disputed. Maybe even if it is ok in principle, it's best not to present the appearance of sinning.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 9:33 AM
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There may be no greater indicator of the decline of Unfogged, than that I am being allowed to pose as the expert on the The Church of Latter-Day Saints .


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 9:35 AM
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50

It's not like they're the first group to have religio-cultural practices not fully founded in institutional directives.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 9:35 AM
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"We don't drink tea because tea is harmful to your body and you should live a healthy lifestyle. Fizzy sugar water with caffeine is fine, though!"


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 9:47 AM
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52

They won't even drink beer.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 9:59 AM
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53

The original rule is no "hot drinks" which has been interpreted to mean coffee and tea (iced or not - some theorize it was the status of tea and coffee as a luxury that was the real issue, or maybe just that religions need to ban things for credibility.) Later on, people thought there must be some sensible godly health reason for the ban, and suggested caffeine because it is a stimulant, and then avoiding caffeine became a way of being holier-than-thou -- I don't even own a diet Coke, etc. You couldn't get a caffeinated soda at BYU. But now you can, because it's never been banned, and when Romney ran for President there was a big push to look normal. Most people are pretty reasonable about it, but shiv had a weird experience where one of his classmates refused to meet at the local coffee place for a group project, because he might be seen going in there, but Dunkin Donuts was OK, because one could plausibly be in there for donuts and not coffee.

Starbucks,however, does good business because of the milkshakes they sell.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 10:21 AM
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when Romney ran for President there was a big push to look normal

For the set of "normal" which includes Mitt Romney.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 10:25 AM
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55

I thought the media took notice at some point that Romney was really into cherry caffeine free Diet Coke or something messed-up like that.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 10:32 AM
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56

The hard stuff.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 10:32 AM
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He said something about it in his book about the Olympics.

[Cola brands] were all the same to me: sweet, delicious, and, because my Mom frowned on caffeine drinks, rare. At the soda machine, I would have elected whichever was closer to my pointer finger. Over the years, I began to associate Coke with all sorts of things I like: smiling young people, sports, music, the Olympics, and recently, polar bears. Those associations make me "feel good" about coke, a lot better than I do about RC Cola (are you still out there RC?). So when I pick up a twelve-pack at the grocery store or step up to a soft drink machine, I'll push the Coke button (of course caffeine free, Mom) even if it costs a little more.

The entire passage reads like something from an alien carefully mimicking humanity. A relatable anecdote about advertising campaigns instilling positive mental images! (It comes within what appears to be a long section about lining up sponsors for the Olympics.) At the same time, the parenthetical about caffeine free looks like it could be tongue in cheek.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 10:43 AM
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In most of the media outlets that quoted this selection, it ran "because my Mother frowned on caffeine drinks". Probably edited in a later edition.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 10:45 AM
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59

Speaking of religion and beverages, this Purim drink until "Howard Schultz is the candidate America needs to begin healing" seems plausible.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 10:56 AM
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60

Or just this Friday, if you're not patient.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 10:58 AM
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61

59: Steven Schmidt needs to keep that consultant money rolling in now that John McCain is dead, and billionaires are as easy as any mark (probably easier!) for the "you're so smart and popular and handsome, who wouldn't vote for you?" schtick.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 11:09 AM
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61 was me.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 11:09 AM
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63

61: It could probably work on me, but that wouldn't pay.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 11:15 AM
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64

You could try to sell 2 billion cups of coffee.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 11:23 AM
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64: Maybe if I could convince the Mormons that it's something else, that's not prohibited by God and Joseph Smith.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 11:35 AM
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66

I think it was just an artifact of their former support of polygamy. If you spend money on coffee or avocado toast, you can't afford houses for multiple families.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 12:41 PM
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|| Those really were the good old days.

https://slate.com/culture/2019/01/virginia-stopher-stofer-girl-hobo-1920s.html

||


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 01-28-19 2:01 PM
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