Goddamnit. I need help figuring out how to handle this. We're going to visit Jammies' family. The adults there are all vaccinated, the cousins under 12 have not had any shot. My brother-in-law just tested positive for Covid.
I'm supposed to visit my parents the next weekend. My mom of course just had serious surgery and is on the mend. I do not want to bring them covid and I'd like to minimize the chances of having to cancel the trip.
It's unlikely they're doing much in the was of sequestering my brother-in-law from kids or wife or anyone, and the kids and wife will be over at my in-laws house for all the Thanksgiving activities. I'm having trouble believing they'll do more than superficial notions of safety, ie "we'll wear a mask around certain people in certain situations, and ignore the fact that there's all these inconvenient situations that undermine our claim to safety."
I don't want to cancel our trip altogether, though. We canceled last year and there was fallout, although I stand by our decision.
We just got a notification from Pebbles' school that she's considered a close contact of someone who tested positive for COVID -- 'sometime early last week.' (Not everyone got the same e-mail, so I'm guessing a student teacher or visitor?) She's not required to quarantine (all masked, plus lax rules), but her best friend is showing mild symptoms and mostly importantly if she gets COVID *after* I had her vaxxed she is going to KILL me. She's seven days post exposure and no symptoms so I think we're good.
I'd cancel in that case, FWIW. "I can't take the risk of brining it home to my immunocompromised mom" is sanity. "I'm going to Thanksgiving even though I have COVID" is not.
If your brother-in-law tested just positive for covid, I think that's a pretty airtight reason not to go visit him this week.
Ditto to 6, plus what Cala said about protecting your immunocompromised Mom.
I posted 6 like I'm all certain of my convictions, but I have myself been vacillating about what to do for the holidays. I haven't seen M's parents in two years now, and they want us to visit them for Christmas. They are not vaccinated.
The likelihood of our getting sick, or us bringing them covid, is very slim. M and I are vaccinated and boosted, and I hardly ever go anywhere. And anyway, M's siblings and their children are much more out-in-the-world than we are, and they'll all be there, so any additional risk that M and I pose is probably negligible. (The siblings are all vaccinated. There are a couple under-12s amongst the kids, but I assume (hope?) that the littles will also be vaccinated before the holiday.)
I don't know how much of my reluctance to visit them is actually rational (as in, we are posing a significant risk to ourselves or others if we go), how much of it is irrational paranoia lingering after 20 months of being hyperaware of any risks of contagion, and how much of it is just resentment and a desire to punish M's parents for nominating themselves for the HCA. M's going, regardless of my decision. My choice is whether to go (and seethe, and breathe shallowly, and freeze when anyone tries to hug me, for two or three days) or to stay home and know that I'm the uptight finicky one that everyone kind of rolls their eyes at.
My boss has the 'rona, which is no risk to me because we have not been in the same zip code since March 2020. But it dumps more work on me right during the time when you get double kilometers for walking Pokemon Go eggs.
I should add to 8 that, my own parents are local, and I see them every week. M doesn't go all the time like I do, but he has visited my parents for their birthdays, mothers and fathers day, and Thanksgiving and Christmas. He hardly ever gets to see his own parents (he has seen them I think twice? during the pandemic), and this will be his first time in two years seeing his parents and siblings all together.
He says he's fine with my not going, but I'm sure my absence would be remarked upon. M's parents are not especially judgy (and are in fact notably sweet people), but they would be disappointed. And honestly, what explanation can I give? "Despite being triple-vaccinated I remain afraid that I will catch or spread the disease"?
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about the risk to a voluntarily non-vaccinated adult. They are taking their chances. I would worry about the risk to vaccinated, but immuno-compromised adult.
But the voluntarily non-vaccinated adults are M's parents.
Yeah. It's not great decision making on their part.
12: What are their reasons for not getting vaccinated? I'm sure you've already tried to talk to them about it, so I'm curious why sweet and non judgemental would choose not to get vaccinated.
My son's school is still in the middle of a big CV-19 outbreak. I had another email from the school today letting me know that he's a close contact of someone who tested positive, so we were off this evening for another PCR test. As per last time I mentioned this, that a lot of the kids xelA plays with at school have siblings or parents with CV-19 right now and I've been in contact with them, too. I think maybe 1/3 of his class have had CV-19 at some point in the past few weeks, and the two years above him have had more than half the kids out at one time with CV-19.
I'm not massively worried about it, it's more the idea of the how inconvenient it might end up being if he gets it, and then one or other or both of my wife and I get it. As far as I can tell, from my immediate social circle, vaccination is providing very little protection against infection. Everyone is getting it again. However, it is providing protection against serious illness. No-one I know has had symptoms worse than a very bad cold or mild flu in this current wave.
16: Are they all double vaxxed or have they started getting a third shot?
Do we know if the flu vaccine provides protection against infection as opposed to serious illness?
re: 17
All double vaxxed, but only one person I know has had a booster yet. I've only been eligible to book since today, for example, and mine is booked about 3 weeks from now.
14: I don't exactly know their reasons. When asked, they say "not yet," or "we'll wait and see." I think they're nervous about how quickly the vaccines were produced and approved, and about the new mRNA technology, and the risk of complications from the J&J. Unfortunately, they also spent lockdown isolated from their children and communicating with crazy people on Facebook, so Moby's joke in 15 probably isn't far from the truth either. They've been quite careful about avoiding contagion (they haven't been traveling or visiting people, and spent last Christmas without seeing their children or grandchildren, which is a huge sacrifice for them), and they live in an area with a very high vaccination rate and very low transmission rates, so probably in part they've felt the vaccine hasn't been strictly necessary.
I also don't think that "sweet and non judgmental" is notably inconsistent with being unvaccinated. Being unvaccinated is which is mostly associated with being less educated. And in my immediate experience, the people who are most judgmental about vaccination are people who are vaccinated, myself included.
Also, if M goes to visit his family for Christmas and I don't, how am I going to explain that to my own parents? There's no way I can tell my parents that M's parents are not vaccinated, omg.
18: interesting study on flu vaccines (including both standard and an investigational oral vaccine) involving a challenge trial. 35-38% were shedding virus. I think it was around 65% in the placebo group that was challenged w/ influenza got the virus and shed it.
Heebie, it doesn't look like you can make both trips. What if you split them? Jammies and some kids to one, you and other kids to the other. Unless you all reconvene in between? But maybe with the context changing, your itineraries could change. Parents tend not to think of splitting up, but it can have nice features.
I feel like I can't deny the in-law family get together this year to my children. The in-laws alternate Christmas/Thanksgiving as a group, and we skipped Christmas last year due to you reprobates.
Jammies and I could stay in a hotel, but I can't see having the kids stay there instead of at Grandma's.
I'm coming to the conclusion that the only thing I can do is hack through being there, and then on the following Wednesday, it will have been five days and my brood can all get tested. If any of us are positive, I cancel my trip to see my parents.
We're going to see them over winter break anyway, so I'll be there in another two weeks. My mom has just been wanting closeness and wanted another visit in between.
For 1, I'd send the family but not attend, with the explicit "I'm visiting my compromised mom in 5 days."
For 8, I'd attend, largely because you're boosted already and not returning to someone immune-compromised. Odds seem incredibly slim that you'll carry a significant dose or catch anything. Getting to dodge the awkward conversation in 21 would also, unfortunately, be part of my calculation.
16 sounds like a very annoying situation to be in, even though it's likely to be easily endured. If people were out with colds or the flu and getting in everyone's faces, we'd still frown -- even if "sick like the flu" is the likeliest outcome, getting passed the flu by someone who knows they're carrying it is annoying!
27 crossed with 23 to 25; Megan's advice and your own "go then test" is better than what I came up with. It's super annoying, because someone who's sick is attending, which is rude. The sick BIL should be adult enough to call off attending; he's being selfish in exposing everyone.
If I had to guess: I think the brother-in-law might technically stay at his own house and not come over to the in-laws - he'd probably enjoy the peace and quiet. However, his three kids and Jammies' sister will be going back and forth between the two houses constantly, and not wearing masks at either house.
re: 27.last
I'm not even sure I'm annoyed, even. Everyone involved is mostly* doing their best given the circumstances they are in, and the current CV-19 rules in the UK. Vis a vis people who are fully vaccinated don't have to isolate if they have been in contact with someone who is infected unless they otherwise develop symptoms or have a positive test themselves. Similar rules apply to kids who are too young to be vaccinated. As it happened, when I was waiting at the PCR test place after school today, I saw other families from his class traipsing in to get tested, so people are clearly making an effort to stay on top of testing.
A lot of people aren't in a position to repeatedly quarantine themselves and their family members if they haven't tested positive, and have no symptoms. It would be nightmarishly hard for us, for example, if that was what we had to do.
I think the wider social group I'm part of, which is riddled with CV-19 right now, could probably be doing a bit more to minimise expose outside of school, and the school could be doing more to reduce infection within the school, but anything more drastic than some attempts to increase the isolation between class group bubbles isn't going to happen without legislation.
* there's a few arseholes, like anywhere, but they are in the minority.
30: Of, exposed to Covid is different from testing positive; I'd misunderstood it as the latter. It's still miserable that you're in the middle of so much exposure, but at least you're accessing tests and are keeping things contained better than we manage in the US.
Speaking of action, I just got an email from the school that the London Coronavirus Response Cell is putting the school into special measures as they've passed the threshold that triggers that.
Three spoons for each class in the cafeteria.
i am definitely the asshole here bc i would absolutely not have the slightest hesitation in straight up not visiting unvaccinated parents, and telling them why. who knows - might inspire them to get vaccinated!
i also would not risk the infected bil sitch & would instead visit the vax'd & immunocompromised mom.
these folks are gross & inconsiderate! why the agita re not seeing them? they made their choices.
31: maybe as compared to fresburg, which sucks for fresburg ouch, but currently i'm holding my breath until better half back from uk bc oh my god it dies not look good compared to here.
30: Masks. Are they wearing masks? What about daily antigen testing for kids before school?
34: I'm worse, because I want vax and proof of neg rapid test until case counts and deaths are way lower. I would be comfortable going to certain things wearing a mask, but people would be insulted.
re: 34.last
We are in an odd local bubble. This is a very tight knit interconnected community and a small local school. Rates in London have been quite flat for a while and friends who teach in schools 2 miles away are reporting case rates no higher than usual.
these folks are gross & inconsiderate! why the agita re not seeing them? they made their choices.
Because it would mean that my kids and Jammies mom don't see each other for a second holiday season.
my point is that is solvable - bil & his travelling band of microbe carriers do not attend. if grandma not willing to arrange this, then you comfort your children & they zoom.
I just compared COVID deaths by local vaccination rate, and in the past 7 days, the most vaccinated quarter of California (10 counties / 11 million people) has seen 70 deaths. The least vaccinated quarter (28 counties / 7.6 million): 256 deaths. Per population, that's more than a 5x difference in death rate.
also, as i said - i'm definitely an asshole about this stuff. i don't get wrapped up in guilt re not seeing family people in these kind of circumstances.
straight up not visiting unvaccinated parents, and telling them why
Telling them why, in my case, would mean saying that I'm indulging my irrational discomfort, and also maybe being punitive. M's parents pose no real risk* to me, a healthy vaccinated person. I can get tested before visiting my own parents again. Also, among the guests will be two very frequent business travelers and a bunch of kids who are in school -- any additional risk that I pose to M's parents is vanishingly small.
Ugh, I guess this means I have to go.
*I mean, sure, there's some risk, but honestly, they're two elderly people who don't leave the house much. They're unlikely to be unknowingly infected. M's vaccinated siblings or their children (also vaccinated) are more likely to pass the disease.
If brother in law has tested positive he should be self-isolating for the next ten days . He apparently isn't? Does he say why not?
36: per the ny times thing (no idea how accurate) case rate in london is 48 per 100k - it's 6 & change here, 11 for unvaccinated.
41: understood, my assholery is about not participating in an event that involves unvaccinated people bc of desire to keep transmission in general low, rather than just based on each person's individual risk of getting sick. and if by punitive you mean withholding your presence bc disagree with failure to be vaccinated - i would be absolutely fine with that hence definitely an asshole.
jms, there's no good answer here. My kids haven't seen their grandparents in two or three years and my dad won't vaxx so I won't risk it until the kids are vaxxed. But I think you'd be okay. The risk to you is low. The risk to them by you is also low.
Pebbles' friend is negative for COVID so for now we just wait.
My kids haven't seen their grandparents in two or three years and my dad won't vaxx so I won't risk it until the kids are vaxxed.
I'm so sorry. What an awful situation to be in.
Update on our end - Jammies sent a gentle email inquiring about how his sister and her husband are handling things, and it sounds like he's staying in the extra bedroom in the basement and they're doing a decent job keeping him isolated. So I think they're taking it seriously enough that we should continue with the visit, and I should just test before visiting my parents.
45:. It's mostly rotten timing. All our family is far away.
We'd skipped some family trips in 2019 and deferred them to 2020. Then pandemic. Canadian border only just reopened (so that's shiv's side.) My mom visited post vaxx but dad won't vaxx and my kids are in the germ soup of the schools and seeing them requires a flight so it's actually a bit hard to plan. Also dad has gone a bit around the InfoWars bend so it's just challenging. Next summer should be good.
43: I am also on Team keep transmission down in the community; it's not just about individual risk and benefits. I don't have anyone in my family who is unvaccinated, so I don't have to be an asshole in that way. I'm still not comfortable taking my mask off around a lot of vaccinated people, and people get insulted, so I'm an ass in that way.
I'm getting my booster next week. My first dose was AstraZeneca, my second was Moderna, and my third will be either Pfizer or Moderna (whatever they offer, I'll take it!).
My parents are deceased (and were they still with us, would almost certainly be vaccinated), but if I were faced with the holidays-with-unvaxxed-relatives dilemma, I'm pretty sure I would refuse to visit. At the same time, I'm pretty sure I would fuss and fret and agonize over the decision, and feel guilty about saying no.
46 sounds like a good update on the situation.
on other fronts, the nearest water temp buoy is on the fritz but anecdotally i am soooo tiiirrred and starting to thin down i am pretty sure we are edging down towards/under 55. hopefully acclimatization kicks in soon. it is lovely to have a sauna so that you can put your clothes and towel in it to warm up while you swim and then after a shower and a bit of time in the sauna your fingers work to put on your clothes! the luxury!!!
46: heebie, your concern about your mom is reasonable and understandable. Would your sil & kids be willing to take rapid tests before coming over? They're not perfect but they're likely to give a good idea of whether someone is likely to transmit infection. They could test and that combined with you testing before travel and being vaxxed would be fairly safe.
Update: SIL also tested positive today.
Now both SIL and BIL are isolating at their house, and everyone (besides us) has been exposed, and everyone has agreed to wear masks and dine separately. So I'm okay with this.
Good luck. You're all wearing the highest quality masks you've got, right? This def seems like an N95 situation.
I am hanging my Old-Navy-bemasked chin in shame.
That seems like those would let air through by definition.
There are things known and things unknown and in between if is the Gap.
90% of getting covid is just showing up.
So: my 9-year old nephew now has to isolate for 10 days, and do Zoom school instead of in-person learning, because one of his classmates tested positive for Covid yesterday. My nephew has no symptoms, btw, and will surely be just fine. I hope the same can be said of his classmate, of course.
I spent this past Sunday afternoon with said nephew: took him for lunch at a Mexican restaurant, and then to the Museum of Nature (where he explained to me how the animals in the wildlife dioramas do not meet the criteria for the Uncanny Valley, because their painted backgrounds are so obviously fake... ). As the contact of a contact, I am not obliged to isolate, but I'm inclined to be very careful for the next week or so.
You could start by caring for my feelings.
The dioramas are awesome!
It's just that my nephew is truly weirded out by the woolly mammoth sculptures on the front lawn of the museum, because their eyes seem almost real, but not quite, and those eyes frighten him. Whereas the animals in the dioramas inside the museum are, quite comfortingly, quite obviously a fake.