You're a snot if you mention it, but right.
It's like when my dad would call certain universities "normal schools."
I thought that just meant teaching teachers. Those who can't teach, teach teaching.
How many teachers could a teacher teacher teach if a teacher teacher could teach teachers.
3: Yes, but when they are now a universe, it seems a bit snobby to remember they were a normal school in 1956.
Is an Ed D meaningful in any way?
I GET THIS A LOT, AND FRANKLY I FIND IT VERY HURTFUL.
8: Aren't you the director of the worst movie ever?
"I like 'Howl' a lot. Who wouldn't? It just doesn't have much to do with me or what happened to my friends. For one thing, I believe that the best minds of my generation were probably musicians and physicists and mathematicians and biologists and archaeologists and chess masters and so on, and Ginsberg's closest friends, if I'm not mistaken, were undergraduates in the English department of Columbia University. ... Everybody knows that the dumbest people in any American university are in the education department, and English after that."
9: I GET THAT A LOT, TOO.
He never saw a human resources department, did he.
They're weird because they cover so much ground. An EdD can be an MFA for future principals or a MSW for someone doing therapy in an academic setting, or a research degree but in a department that likely has lower standards than you'd see in actual humanities and social science (but of course any individual may exceed the standards). Currently I'm in a role where I've interviewed several EdD's and they all seemed smart and dedicated and fine people.
Sorry MBA not MFA
My mom had a masters in education, but then she got an MLS to improve herself.
I was really impressed at how much ground an Ed D could cover for a moment.
I'd never seen 10 before. Frankly explains a lot about Twitter as well.
I think of them as a degree for administrators who refer to students as customers who want to look like they have doctorates. That's unfair, probably. Jill Biden can call herself whatever she wants.
It's not the same as having a PhD in (e.g.) early childhood development.
17: Broadly construed, I think it says something about the New York Times, too.
But "Howl" doesn't say that Ginsberg was mates with the best minds of his generation. It just said he'd seen them doing (checks list) well, doing quite a variety of unlikely, unwise, unsafe, unsanitary and at the very least unsightly things that would probably best be covered by the apocryphal remark of one late Victorian lady seeing a rather over-the-top production of "Antony and Cleopatra", "Dear! dear! what a contrast to the home life of our own dear Queen." It didn't specify what their degree subjects were.
I don't read poems so I don't know.
I consider them professional degrees for administrators.
10, 20: I think the apocryphal version that goes "I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, trying to make you click on ads" is probably more accurate. The mode of their destruction pretty much ruled out starvation if not self inflicted although of course not hysteria or nakedness.
Ajay, recently you had a comment where you listed the difference between the tactical, operational, and strategic (and grand strategic) levels and it was one of the better of the many such descriptions I've read but I can't find it now. Do you remember the thread?
24 - thank you! This is the one you're thinking of, from the Afghanistan thread: http://www.unfogged.com/archives/comments_17888.html#2131013
The easy way to remember is that tactics happen when you're in contact - in a battle or a siege or whatever. Hence the name. The operational level is moving units and formations around in order to deliver the next contact. Strategic is a bit trickier because some people don't make a distinction between strategy and grand strategy, and also because it sounds like it should be what strategoi do, but in fact strategoi are almost entirely concerned with the operational level, especially these days.
Oh right, 22 is the other MBA-like use case, for mini-Deans to get promotions to positions that they were supposed to have an actual doctorate for. I think these MBA-like degrees for educational professionals to get raises and promotions is the main use case, but I do think there's a surprising number of other scenarios.
The people I met with EdD were mostly people with math masters who got jobs at community colleges and then got an EdD while working (usually through some kind of "thesis project" implementing some project at the community college).
I just checked the collaborators of my friend who does serious math education research, and all of them have PhDs not EdDs.
It's pretty snotty to look askance at erectile dysfunction dick, yes. There are plenty of other ways to have a good time.
I have a friend who got an EdD at Hahvahd back when it was a research degree, functionally equivalent to a PhD. He's pretty sensitive about it. Now that the purpose of the EdD more generally is for continuing education/promotion credentialism, H went ahead and got rid of the program (he told me; I didn't check).
I have to check my inner elitist asshole when it comes to EdDs and remind myself that they're no different from other professional doctorates (except that they don't have any kind of demanding board exams). Part of it is that my high school dean got his EdD when I was a student, and his HD students and fellow teachers did most of his work for him. It was not a reassuring lesson of academic integrity. I also just resent expensive credentialist box-checking in principle, though it's not the fault of the degree holders that it's necessary. My advice to most of my social science undergrads is to get the quickest, cheapest not-for-profit Masters degree they can find.
Same as J, Robot's general view. Credential for the sake of credential, no real bar to clear to receive one. As far as I could tell, most Ed degrees (Chem Ed) were watered down subject degrees with no additional requirements about pedagogy. Considered an OK path to something like a better high school teaching position (like at a magnet school) or maybe an in for community college level teaching.
Snobbery! They're fine degrees, but I tier them along with a Master's degree. Show up, do some work, get a degree.
I thought this guy I knew at University of Michigan had an Ed D, but looking it up he actually has a PhD in Learning Sciences.
Once you have the degree it should be Having Learned Sciences.
25: Strategoi are not to be confused with strategoiters, who are concerned with schemes to treat thyroid disease.
And in the United States, at least, the strategoyim are developing the most effective approaches to support the state of Israel.
Sorry MBA not MFA
I get that a lot.
Wait, when did the comments stop reading tags!
I also feel compelled to point out that the strategoya endeavor to systematize the practice of Spanish painting and are not, as is commonly thought, involved in the methodology of preparing beans for sale in public markets.
23: "Best minds of my generation destroyed by adness" h/t SSC guy
As far as I could tell, most Ed degrees (Chem Ed) were watered down subject degrees with no additional requirements about pedagogy.
Now I'm confused. I would assume a Chem Ed was a phd, which would have pedagogy research involved. I didn't realize an Ed D could specialize in a discipline like a specific science?
I thought I was the only one confused by that.
30.1: Looks like they now have an Ed L.D. (education leadership) for the credentialing and a Ph.D. in "philosophy of education" for research-based work.
I do actually want people that run organizations to learn how to think clearly about good ways to run organizations, and I do think such skills can be taught. So why do I imagine this to be such School of How to Blow, Hard?
Strategic is a bit trickier because some people don't make a distinction between strategy and grand strategy, and also because it sounds like it should be what strategoi do
Lot of chortling about this at the barracks, I tell you what.
Nursing doctorates are even more rabbit-holey, I'm told.
43: My new office is on a floor with mostly nursing faculty, and I had a bit of a learning curve figuring that out. Most of them have doctorates in nursing, AFAIK, including my favorite of the bunch, who is also a retired Lt. Colonel.
I worked with two PhD RNs. They were both good.
One of my lifetime favorite elevators was at the Ecole Normale. Expanding steel lattice door, kind of a trellis thing, could lose fingers or get a bag strap caught through the walls. Required generous lubrication, so it was a ride to smell as well as to see and to hear.
good ways to run organizations
I love reading humorous books about bad ways to run organizations-- CN Parkinson and the like. I've had Seeing like a State (I think not intended to be humorous, but Cintra Wilson would be a great choice for the audio book IMO) in my deferred books list (straw poll , mine is about 100 books, the Amazon version) for a bit (that is a decade). Maybe there's advice for how to manage wishlists, a personal version of organization. Has anyone here read it?
I didn't realize an Ed D could specialize in a discipline like a specific science?
A close friend of mine has an Ed D and specializes in chemistry. She does actual research and publishing in pedagogy, particularly in how college lab TAs are trained and how people pursuing accreditation to teach HS science are themselves taught the science.
The major purpose of EdDs in MA is that if you are a teacher, you get a raise on completion. (I think that's the case for any advanced degree, but EdD is one of the easier and less time-consuming ways to do it.)
Inside of you are two wolves. One researches chemistry and the other researches pedagogical methods for teaching chemistry research.
Lot of chortling about this at the barracks, I tell you what.
Not so much in the officer's mess, but definitely in the sergeants' mess.
Inside of each wolf there are two sergeants.
In the past, like maybe 20-30 years, ago there were people who got EdD from Harvard who did mental health counseling. I saw the name of one who had a psychology degree from a mediocre school ...almost like the EdD was a way of laundering the PsyD.
I'm a little confused about the different degrees. I knew someone with an MAT who was a headmaster, but I don't know if they still offer that.
EdD for counselors is definitely a thing. I didn't know it was until I participated in an EdD thesis about PhD advisors and graduate student mental health, where the person getting the degree already had a MSW and was and continues to be a full-time therapist with a practice aimed at academics. I think it's more traditionally a degree for counselors working in K-12 schools, and that specializing in work with college, graduate students, and faculty is a bit more unusual for that kind of degree.
53: Masters of Arts in Teaching. I had a classmate who worked at Goldman Sachs and is now some kind of hedge fund guy. His sister was a teacher with a career goal of being a head of a private school. She as doing some kind of graduate degree an Education school, but I'm not sure which degree.
Fun fact, if you wanted to graduate from Harvard in a subject with a qualification that allowed you to teach in a public school, the (certificate?) program was not through the Harvard School of Education. You get the Masters later so that you can get a raise.
Honestly, I probably would have had trouble getting into even Cornell.
56: My point was only that there is no degree from the Harvard Ed school that give you the qualification to teach in a public school.
No worries. I didn't even apply to Cornell.
My department doesn't offer an EdD but I have friends in departments that do in math-ed. I don't think it's full of b.s. because the EdD students usually take the same courses that the PhD students take. It's just that once the coursework is completed, they don't do a dissertation and instead do a less rigorous thesis / project / action research study / whatever, with the idea that generally EdD folks aren't preparing to go into research careers. Often they go into administration in their school districts.
My department doesn't offer an EdD but I have friends in departments that do in math-ed. I don't think it's full of b.s. because the EdD students usually take the same courses that the PhD students take. It's just that once the coursework is completed, they don't do a dissertation and instead do a less rigorous thesis / project / action research study / whatever, with the idea that generally EdD folks aren't preparing to go into research careers. Often they go into administration in their school districts.
My department doesn't offer an EdD but I have friends in departments that do in math-ed. I don't think it's full of b.s. because the EdD students usually take the same courses that the PhD students take. It's just that once the coursework is completed, they don't do a dissertation and instead do a less rigorous thesis / project / action research study / whatever, with the idea that generally EdD folks aren't preparing to go into research careers. Often they go into administration in their school districts.
The Taylor Swift Wordle for today really shows that she's trying to move past old quarrels.
Nice, hadn't seen that yet!
My favorite Swift-based humor: https://www.theonion.com/taylor-swift-unveils-even-darker-persona-with-new-singl-1819580257/amp
61: Basically an EdD, like a JD, is a perfectly fine degree but it's not a doctorate.
AIPMHBALO, my dad did not let them convert his LL.B. into a JD.
So Moby, when are we starting our new weblog "Unfogged (Taylor's Version)"?
She's old enough that it's not creepy anymore.
38: Sorry, being snobby in general about education degrees, broader category. The ones I'm most familiar with are Chemical Education PhDs (rather than an EdD). The program requirements were the same coursework, then in-discipline research that was maybe equivalent to a Master's (probably an MS but maybe an MA), and nothing to do with pedagogy (research or coursework) in order to graduate. Music Ed degrees were similar (bachelor's level required lower proficiency at major instrument but additional instrument proficiencies, no additional pedagogy coursework).
47 sounds legitimately valuable and much needed! There are tons of jobs where this would be a huge asset. Unfortunately, I haven't run into programs like that.
70: I'm not familiar with this brand of education degrees that you are being snobby about, and I have a PhD in math-ed. It was definitely not what you describe. We didn't do the same coursework that math PhD students did, because math-ed is an entirely different field. It's an interdisciplinary field that draws on cognitive science, ed psych, and sociology. Our program was separate and our coursework was different. Yeah, we all had to have masters degrees in math to start, but the focus was on the theory and methods for studying learning and teaching. This mirrors what my colleagues did who have PhDs in science ed, as well. Unlike mathematics, math-ed is a social science.
Anyway, Taylor Swift's songs about murdering people are more believable than the outlaw country songs about murder. You can tell she's thought it through.
One of these days they'll find Jake Gyllenhal's body hanging from a scarf, and no one will ever be able to prove it, but we'll all know who did it.
Honestly that should just be the plot of Murders in the Building Season 3.
I'm still trying to figure out who Inez is.
Making a character named "Inez" to rhyme with "says" is legitimately the single worst thing on that entire album.
Brilliant songwriter, but absolutely zero sense of cringe. It's why she's better in collaboration, there has to be someone around who's not a spaghetti thrower and can say "no that's a terrible idea."
It's still better than rhyming "Havana " with "Atlanta."
I don't remember who did that but it was on the radio.
I think my favorite bad non-rhyme in music is "cold as a razor blade, tight as a tourniquet."
IIRC- this reminds me of a line from PJ O'Rourke something to the effect of if you don't know what's wrong with the education system you haven't f***** an El Ed major.
My Google fu is failing me so I can't find the quote but it sounds like him.
Hey academic types, tell me if I'm excessively pissed at this situation:
Wife does some online adjunct stuff on the side for a graduate school of education. She's given a class 2-3 times per year for 8 weeks. Last summer a student didn't submit most of the course work so received a failing grade. Yesterday, 6 months later, they contacted my wife and said the student had just submitted the work and want my wife to grade it which would take a few hours.
My opinion is she should say my contract for that class is long finished, $50/hour to grade it or fuck off. She's worried that antagonizing them will mean she isn't given classes in the future.
But! In looking at the adjunct contract to see if there's any requirement to work after a course is complete (there isn't, only for full time professors) she realized they also underpaid her for all three classes last year for the salary step she should be at based on the total classes she's taught there. She also should be entitled to a guaranteed number of assignments per year at that step which they've done nothing to acknowledge, although she has been receiving that number of classes anyway.
So now I'm thinking it rises to the level of some kind of labor violation, that she's owed a couple thousand in back pay in addiction to having no obligation to grade the old work for free, and if they retaliate by not offering classes that's another violation. Adjuncts unionized a couple years ago so she contacted the union rep about the situation.
(There are other stories about the incompetence of this department but I'll leave it there for now.)
||
This is going to be difficult but NMM to Monica Vitti
|>
84: I think probably the union rep is going to be more useful than me for advice, but that sounds really shitty.
84: One hopes that this is just a clerical error, and it will be rectified as soon as it is brought to their attention.
It's amazing to me that turning in work six months late is a thing. In college, it never would have occurred to me to even try that. (I remember twice, without asking, receiving accommodations from professors regarding work I didn't do, and I was astonished.) I know it's not appropriate, but I want your wife to say: I already graded it.
Obviously, wait until August to submit.
oh no that is so sad monica vitti was fucking amazing. i mean she was 90 so she had a great run but still the world with monica vitti alive in it is one thing and without a diminished other.
84: I discovered Alison Green through this blog, if I remember correctly, and she seems relevant here. Given that there's a union, working through them is probably the best option. If there wasn't or if they aren't helpful about this, Green's advice would probably be something like this: (1) treat the request to grade it now as a new task, like you're saying, and (2) treat the underpayment as a mistake that of course they'll rectify as soon as it's brought to the attention of the right person.
88: I know someone who did work 2.5 years late. What happened was that her Dad died at the end of her Freshman year, so she got an accommodation and an incomplete. Both she and the professor forgot about it, and then somebody realized that she needed the class to graduate, so she wrote the paper.
If I outlive the whole committee, I get a PhD by default.
Basically an EdD, like a JD, is a perfectly fine degree but it's not a doctorate.
But they're all the same when the ad just requires a terminal degree (despite the existence of the LLM and PhD in law).
I get that 96 is the point, but those ads are dumb.
I've never seen them outside of government work.
I think it's also often a requirement for a lot of deanlet roles.
I haven't kept up with porn so I'm not sure what that is.
It's like a washlet but it has a postgraduate qualification.