Re: Trolling on the square

1

I am consumed by mixed emotions.


Posted by: Ajay | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 6:09 AM
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Portending a long muddy future where "Ukraine" marks one as western, "the Ukraine" marks one as fascist, and "the ukraine" marks the border zone permanently depopulated by raiding.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 6:36 AM
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3

It took me months to stop saying "The Ukraine." Fortunately, I had fixed my speech before the newest invasion.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 6:39 AM
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4

Saying The Netherlands means you think it should be part of Russia.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: “Pause endlessly, then go in” (9) | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 6:44 AM
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I don't know how the war ends. Invading Russia certainly seems cheering to me and I think Ukraine will win, but the cost is tremendous and climbing.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 6:45 AM
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6

So from what I gather, this invasion was done largely by anti-Putin Russian far-right fascists. I'm vaguely aware of Putin having far-right fascist critics (it came up in the Navalny documentary), but why don't they like Putin? He seems pretty fascist?


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: “Pause endlessly, then go in” (9) | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 6:46 AM
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6: At this point, because he hasn't won with the winning power of winningness. If he was a better leader he would have crushed Ukraine by now. Or so I understand the reasoning.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 6:51 AM
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8

I'm pretty sure these groups were anti-Putin already before the war.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: “Pause endlessly, then go in” (9) | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 6:53 AM
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9

Per FT the raid was carried out not by Ukrainians but by Russians who are (1) literally Nazis and (2) using USG-supplied vehicles. While applauding all policies which result in Nazis being killed, and even more so in Nazis being killed by other Nazis, I question the wisdom in this particular case. Let them do their Death Rides somewhere else. Like, idk, Bakhmut.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 6:54 AM
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10

There are US fascists who think Trump didn't go far enough. One of them is Trump.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 6:56 AM
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9 it shows that Putin is weak and incapable of defending Russia's borders and it will probably result in Russia pulling units out of Ukraine on the eve of the coming AFU counteroffensive. I think it was smart and hilarious to boot.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 6:59 AM
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12

Build The Wall!


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 7:08 AM
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9: Sure, but (1) the raiding-fixing strategy cuts both ways (as the Russians showed over the winter) (2) fuck Nazis (3) the US equipment involved is gratuitous sand in the gears (a day after Biden finally moved on F-16s, no less), and (4) fuck Nazis.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 7:08 AM
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14

Fuck Nazis, yes. But you have one group of Nazis more or less aiding a state that the other Nazis consider part of a Jewish conspiracy, you're looking at different levels of Naziness.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 7:11 AM
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15

Let Nazis fuck Nazis


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 7:12 AM
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Classic root for injuries type situation


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 7:13 AM
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17

Like tripping on a hike?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 7:14 AM
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18

|| NMM to Kenneth Anger.

What a filmmaker.

|>


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 7:23 AM
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19

Zero Nazis is still a really good goal.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 7:24 AM
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20

Let 'em fight


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 7:29 AM
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21

Given that both sides in the war have some far-right adherents, it is definitely worth noting that Ukraine
a) has not very many of them
b) doesn't have them in charge and
c) is sending them on high-risk distraction raids where they don't have a chance of committing atrocities
- three areas in which there's a sharp difference between Ukraine and Russia.

I am reminded of someone, in the late 18th century, asking Pitt whether it was a good idea to raise Highland regiments and train them in modern warfare, given that a lot of them were being raised from areas which had not too long ago been strongly Jacobite (ie far-right sectarian insurgents) and the only reason that the insurgents had lost is that they hadn't been trained in modern warfare.
Pitt's reply was, from memory, "I am not concerned. After they are raised I shall send them to North America, and I do not expect that many of them will return."


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 8:10 AM
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22

4

The correct name is "The Spanish Netherlands"


Posted by: Opinionated Spanish Hapsburgs | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 8:11 AM
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23

I've never understood Russian Nazism. Like, Fascist ethnochauvinism sure, but Nazism specifically? Why adopt the specific ideological trappings of people who thought you were untermensch?


Posted by: Long Time Lurker | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 8:14 AM
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re: 23

I think they agree with the basic idea that there are untermenschen, they just disagree about the exact extension of the set of untermenschen: Jews, yes; non-white people, yes; Slavs (Russian variety), no.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 8:21 AM
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23: that's a minor detail. The rest of the programme is great, from their point of view: antisemitism, racial purity, nationalism, militarism, conservative social policies, strong links with the church, leader worship, paranoia, even expanding your empire into eastern Europe, all those things are long-term winners in Russian politics. (Back in the 1990s Russia even had Tatar Nazis. Slogan, "Nationalists of all lands, unite!")


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 8:22 AM
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26

The real crime of the Nazis, as far as modern Russia is concerned, is attacking Russia and obviously they aren't in favour of that, but everything else is fine.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 8:23 AM
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27

I was going to say 26, yes. In mainstream Russian discourse, the evil of the Nazis consisted first and (mostly) last in attacking the motherland.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 8:38 AM
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28

The Nazis were not big on churches.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 8:43 AM
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29

I think the Russian fascists are because it's a national church.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 8:45 AM
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30

These particular Russian Nazis don't seem to be all that opposed to invading Russia.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 9:52 AM
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the raid was carried out [...] using USG-supplied vehicles

Had me thinking "the drywall company?!" for a moment.


Posted by: Todd | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 10:10 AM
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32

Nazis are not known for the quality or consistency of their intellectual program.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 10:28 AM
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33

At the beginning of the invasion Putin was claiming that Zelenskiy (!) was a Nazi. Has he walked that back or is is he just relying on it being forgotten under the rest of the enormous pile of shit he spouts?


Posted by: Chris Y | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 10:28 AM
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34

Don't buy Chinese drywall. There have been issues.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 10:29 AM
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"At the beginning of the invasion Putin was claiming that Zelenskiy (!) was a Nazi."

Ah, that explains why Putin has supplied Zelensky's army with so much materiel.


Posted by: Ajay | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 10:30 AM
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36

But of course, see above, he means it in the Russian sense of "enemy of Russia".


Posted by: Ajay | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 10:31 AM
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37

22 Not so fast, there.


Posted by: Opinionated Republiek der Zeven Verenigde Nederlanden | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 10:34 AM
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Has he walked that back

I don't think he ever walks back anything, at least rhetorically.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 10:35 AM
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39

Ukrainians-as-Nazis was also the propaganda line in the US of the leftists-who-hate-liberals -- the folks who are rooting for a Russian victory. I haven't heard much of that lately though.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 10:55 AM
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40

I get it. Liberals are annoying. But I don't think we're annoying enough to justify cheering Putin.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 11:05 AM
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41

Apparently NMM to Tina Tuner either?


Posted by: Doug | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 12:03 PM
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42

"but why don't they like Putin? He seems pretty fascist?"

At a guess, because they want more power than he is inclined to give them, or because he's been feathering his own nest by stealing from the state and thus weakening it.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/feb/08/russia-race


Posted by: Ajay | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 12:43 PM
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43

In addition to Tina Turner, the most important Ohioan also died. The "It's not much but it's honest work" guy.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 12:47 PM
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44

33: Nope. Doubling down every day.
21.c: They occupied at least one village for several hours. Ample opportunity for atrocities.
21 reaminder: Comity.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 2:49 PM
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45

Russians aren't very efficient compared to Germans. They probably need more time to atroce.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 4:41 PM
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46

But of course, see above, he means it in the Russian sense of "enemy of Russia".

This is very much key to understanding (bits and pieces of) the situation. "Nazi" in Russian is seldom much about the ideology of Hitler, and very much about the military goals of Hitler. A whole bunch of the 1917 revolution was red-on-red violence.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 11:31 PM
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47

bunch of the 1917 revolution and several decades thereafter.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 11:33 PM
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48

If this signals to the east-of-the-Urals provinces that Moscow is stretched too thin to keep a lid on internal dissent, things could get unstable quickly.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-24-23 11:47 PM
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49

48 I am skimming a not good at all book on this very subject right this very workday.


Posted by: mc | Link to this comment | 05-25-23 1:40 AM
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50

The last book I read about the Russian Far East was John Vaillant's excellent The Tiger, so I imagine that with Putin distracted a group of dissident and hungry Siberian tigers are about to declare a breakaway state.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 05-25-23 4:15 AM
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51

49: What's the book?


Posted by: Doug | Link to this comment | 05-25-23 5:42 AM
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52

https://www.worldcat.org/title/1337944474?oclcNum=1337944474


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 05-25-23 5:53 AM
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48. Internal dissent has an ethnic dimension in much of Russia. Crimean Tatars are unhappy, a disproportionate number of dead in Donbas are Buryat. Bashkir and Chuvash are populous nationalities, and there are other Tatars. As far as I know, there's a strong history of not engaging in empty protest.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 05-25-23 8:01 AM
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54

Also the distinction between politician and organized criminal is fuzzy, as in Russia itself. Kazakh protests of last year are probably worth reviewing, dynamics of the security response and power shifts afterward. My cartoon understanding is that the dictator's nephew or some other near-center figure lost face in the security services (maybe also lost criminal money as a consequence? that report wasn't clearly sourced) and responded by either starting or hugely amplifying street protests.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 05-25-23 8:11 AM
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Meanwhile, closer to home: https://www.jta.org/2023/05/24/united-states/the-florida-mom-who-got-amanda-gormans-poem-restricted-says-shes-sorry-for-promoting-the-protocols-of-the-elders-of-zion


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-25-23 9:18 PM
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52: Sorry you got stuck with a crappy book. In my mental geography of DC, Jamestown is rightish tending toward nutty. Polish writing about Russia can be its own special kind of invective, even if we're talking about Polish descent rather than actual Poland.

I have the feeling that some of these guys -- Paul Goble comes particularly to mind -- have stared too long into the abyss of Russian history/politics, and some pretty weird stuff is starting to stare back. And what the heck happened to Anatol Lieven? He seems to be all-in on letting Russia do some conquesting.

Anyway.


Posted by: Doug | Link to this comment | 05-25-23 11:55 PM
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And what the heck happened to Anatol Lieven?

Yes, I noticed that. Pity. His book on Pakistan was excellent, I thought. I suspect it's just overlearning from Iraq: because the Iraqi army was pathetically useless and all aid sent to it was wasted, the same must be true about the Ukrainian army; because the Iraqi army couldn't fight without US troops alongside it, the same must be true about the Ukrainian army, etc etc.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05-26-23 3:43 AM
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This guy isn't nutty (so far, policy prescriptions we'll see), but there's a huge amount of wishcasting. He's accurately adducing lots of reasons the federation could or should collapse, but essentially none that it actually will. Basically I'm just skimming for the notes, some of them promising.


Posted by: mc | Link to this comment | 05-26-23 3:56 AM
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Interesting piece by some senior British military doctors - how best to protect civilian hospitals in wars with adversaries like Russia who treat hospitals as a target. https://wavellroom.com/2022/07/27/dread-cross/

Particularly telling, the note that it might be an advantage if the radio emissions of medical equipment were easily confused with those of military systems, because hospitals are likely to be a higher-priority target than combatants!


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05-26-23 6:36 AM
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59.2 Jesus


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 05-26-23 6:50 AM
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It could be an advantage to us, because it's quite difficult to make a convincing decoy that looks like a tank or an MLRS, but a convincing hospital decoy is just an empty heated tent with a TV in it and a red Cross on the roof. You could spam the battlespace with them and the Russians would waste hundreds of missiles.


Posted by: Ajay | Link to this comment | 05-26-23 9:55 AM
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57: I knew his work mainly from The Baltic Revolution, which was tedious but solid, as far as I could tell. It's odd that someone who was so aware of the role of society in the Baltics could miss it in post-2014 Ukraine. Pity, as you say.

58: "Wishcasting" is a lovely word. Stealing. Any new lines along which the federation could collapse? I may be out of touch, but I'm not really seeing it.


Posted by: Doug | Link to this comment | 05-26-23 10:46 AM
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62: Stole it myself. Circle of life.
Don't know what's new to you. He's pushing the inequalities intra-ethnic Russians, as well as interethnic.


Posted by: mc | Link to this comment | 05-26-23 9:46 PM
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