It's really cool, but who is Erick Shaw?
I can't quite figure out why they were illegal in the first place - was there an actual problem, or a prohibition on that class of vehicle being motorized, or just a lack of that specific kind of vehicle in some listing?
who is Erick Shaw?
We've got two months to change his mind.
"Erick, why are all these people sending you pictures of their nipples and their SAT scores?"
3: from the article it seems to be problems with charging (maybe insufficient infrastructure) and unsafe diy conversions, but the article could have been more clear.
There's an exhibit in the National Museum of Singapore about rickshaw pullers in the late 19th century. These were not bicycle rickshaws, but the kind pulled by a man on foot. In the late 19th century migrant workers would come from southern China to do this labor. It was so hard on the body that you could only do it for a few years; after that, you'd return to China, still a young man but with a broken body. All this for just literal pennies a day, but it was preferable than resigning oneself to starving to death in place. I'm glad to see that they're replacing the rickshaws with electrified vehicles. Now if the wealthy world could behave more humanely towards migrant workers.
The trend on that doesn't look good.
6: I saw that for issues about legalizing them now, but there was a court decision in 2014 banning them (confirming that they were already banned?) and it's the rationale there I'm curious about.
If you don't have to pedal, could people decided to take their own electric scooters for most trips and thus take the jobs of the drivers?
If e-rickshaws are outlawed, only outlaws mumble mumble.
A lot of vehicles exist in a legal grey zone. Technically the bike I've ridden to work the last 15 months, 3000+ miles, isn't legal because it can go 27 with pedaling, 20 without. That doesn't mean it's illegal, just not in the regulations recently passed regulating class 1 and 2 (under 20mph). Before that law no e-bikes were technically legal. The main change the law enabled is e-bikes on bike share programs.
Ebikes regulation is a big deal for trails. Technically, class 1and 3 (no throttle, must pedal) are trail legal. Class 2 (throttle) isn't, and neither are the emototcycles sold as "ebikes" that idiots are buying for their kids. The latter is a big problem on multiuser trails. The rest are only problems because not everyone can pedal up trails, but everyone can ride an ebike, so there's a mismatch between handling skills and speed.
I think emtb are pretty great for access and they're allowing a lot of people to have fun and ride farther than their fitness allows.. The emtb doesn't add much, but a small boost is pretty significant for getting up steep inclines or over rocks, but to hear some people, it's exactly the same as a regular bike with respect to their effort. Presumably they spent $7000 for no reason.
I reckon the majority of e-bikes I see on the road in the UK are illegal, and I'd ban the lot of them. I mean, technically they are banned, I'd just enforce the ban.* They are a source of constant never ending anti-social misery in London and they are often very poorly maintained and unsafe.
* they aren't even banned, but if the e-bike has an accelerator (so doesn't need you to pedal) and can go above a certain speed (15.5mph is the speed at which electric assistance is meant to cut out) then you need the same kind of driving license you'd need for a small motorbike. So if you want a quick e-bike, you can have one, you just need to pass certain tests (as you would with any other powered vehicle).
I thought this part was interesting:
One reason why manufacturers like Mustafiz can sell their vehicles cheaper than Beevatech is that their workshops run on electricity connections that have been illegally obtained by paying bribes to local utility officials, he said.
Getting a new commercial electricity line requires a lot of paperwork and a proper license, which Mustafiz cannot get because e-rickshaws are illegal, he added. But once the battery-run rickshaws are legalized, he will opt for a larger workshop, Mustafiz said. "I will expand my business, as there will be a lot of demand [for] new rickshaws. I will also apply for commercial electricity lines," he said.
The mismatch between handling skill and speed, as per Cala, is a big deal. Someone who can ride a non-e-bike at 20mph in London traffic has acquired a certain level of road-handling and traffic experience. Someone riding an e-bike often doesn't even have the very basic rudiments and yet can ride at Tour de France speeds. I regular see people riding on the wrong side of the road, going round roundabouts the wrong way, riding at 20mph on pavements, riding while watching TV, etc. Fuck them all. The law should be enforced.
E-bike fires have also led to a number of deaths in the UK. 149 proven e-bike fires and three deaths last year.
You have to compare that to how many fires are started by acoustic bikes.
E-rickrolls, on the other hand, have a long history.
Kate Rickshaw was in Temple of Doom.
16: the MTB equivalent is being able to climb up steep or rocky terrain, and then not having the skills to descend safely. Plus, the bikes are heavier and so somewhat harder to handle.
There are typically four groups using ebikes: adaptive riders (small percentage, usually know what they're doing), 50yo men who aren't in condition but who have decades of experience and just want to take it easy (many riders), slower but competent riders who want to keep up with a faster group (mom keeping up with teenage son, e.g.), and people who rent them for a fun day out but never bike otherwise. That last group -- whew. I'm all for enjoying the trails and for the most part it's fine but not having to ride in front of the kids just so some ebiker who can't hold a line and doesn't know what it is to hold one won't take them out on a switchback would be a nice change. Having to bike a prevent defense isn't fun.
Kate Rickshaw was in Temple of Doom.
Kat e-Rickshaw was in Templ e-ofDoom.
IHPMHB in my most common ebike commute route, there's a transition from paved trail through unpaved park entrance to city street, that park entrance blocking cars with a 10-foot-wide wooden plank. About twelve months ago,I failed to navigate to the side of the plank and ran straight into it. Fortunately, I was at such a perfect right angle I didn't spin out of control: all my momentum went into the plank and I just came to a halt and fell over. But the plank snapped right in half and went flying; could have hurt anyone if nearby. Shows what force is imparted by 300+ pounds (bike and person combined) going at 15 mph.
A month or so ago, I finally saw how I had made such an error in the first place. At that time of year and day, on a clear day, the trees cast a several long, thin, dark shadows across the dirt road, such that my lazy brain mistook the similar-looking plank as another shadow.
(Then my ebike got stolen.)
Fortunately, I was at such a perfect right angle I didn't spin out of control: all my momentum went into the plank and I just came to a halt and fell over.
That is very lucky. I'm glad it wasn't worse.
I don't have any statistics, but there's a mainly recreational paved pedestrian/bike path near me that feels much more dangerous because of the speed of some of the ebike riders + riders and pedestrians alike not adhering consistently to riding/walking single-file when groups pass each other.
"E-bike fires have also led to a number of deaths in the UK. 149 proven e-bike fires and three deaths last year."
Out of a total 100,000 vehicle fires every year, though. You don't think of it as happening because it never makes the news, but ICE vehicles burn all the time, because they have a tank full of flammable liquid and a load of leaky pipes and dodgy electrical wiring and synthetic fabric and other nice things.
One in two thousand e-bikes burns every year. One in four hundred ICE vehicles burns every year.
So, that second figure seems alarmingly high. Maybe that's why no one likes to dwell on it.
We're having a couple of forest fires right now, but haven't had any lightning for quite a while. Example: https://inciweb.wildfire.gov/incident-information/mtlnf-miller-peak-fire
Cause of fire: under investigation.
Looks like this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
Our campus banned storing things with big batteries in the dorms (scooters, bikes) because of the fire risk, but the language in the policy was so broad that initially no one knew what legal was trying to convey until someone said, "is this about the hoverboards that spontaneously combust?" and yes, it was.
I've seen people ride those down Fifth Avenue in Oakland. I assume because death holds no fear.
I mean, we don't store cars in homes, like we do ebikes.
I store our e-bikes in our basement. The fires are primarily DIY kits or mismatched chargers. If the battery and charger are UL certified or equivalent there's not much risk.
"One in four hundred ICE vehicles burns every year"
Does that include things like structure fires or forest fires where a car is consumed in the larger fire, rather than caused by the car?
Or when the ICE vehicle is parked next to a burning Tesla
Usually. This week my backpacking stuff is spread out in there.
"Does that include things like structure fires or forest fires where a car is consumed in the larger fire, rather than caused by the car?"
It does not. UK only has about 30,000 house fires a year anyway, and very few forest fires.
"we don't store cars in homes"
We do sort of. I mean, lots of houses have garages.
On rickshaws (the old type): originally Japanese, they were common in Hong Kong but in the sixties the government decided to get rid of them because it wasn't terribly modern (and it was getting dangerous for the rickshaw pullers). Rickshaw pullers protested about losing their livelihoods, and so the government compromised - it wouldn't ban them outright, it would just stop issuing any new licences.
The unintended result was that by the time I was out there in the mid-nineties, there were still a few rickshaw pullers, but they were all extremely old and frail-looking men; rather a depressing spectacle.
Note that quite a lot of those vehicle fires are deliberate. Whether that reflects on ICE vehicle safety is an interesting question - yes, they aren't catching fire spontaneously, but they are still easy to set on fire.
One of the silliest anti-EV arguments I heard here was someone saying well, EVs are unsafe, they have these big lithium batteries, if you leave yours parked on the street then kids can just come along and set it on fire; to which my response was, this is also true of ICE vehicles with their big tanks of petrol - do you get a lot of kids just spontaneously burning parked cars already? If not, you probably won't when everyone goes electric.
I can't remember if it was the same person who said "autonomous vehicles are unsafe because you'll get kids stepping out in front of them and forcing them to stop, and that makes them unpredictable and dangerous" - as if human drivers simply rolled over pedestrians without even slowing.
Agree with 14. If you are riding a powered vehicle on a public road, you should be required to have a licence of some sort. No exceptions. And I would include mobility scooters in this (the larger ones already count effectively as vehicles; you can only use them on roads and you need a licence).
re: 40
I think the UK legal position is fairly sensible. Lower-speed electric bikes with pedal assistance don't require a license. Faster e-bikes or e-bikes with throttles that can be ridden like motorbikes without pedalling are treated as vehicles requiring a license.
The issue is just that it's a completely unenforced law, and almost every single e-bike I see is illegal.
I'm pro e-bikes as a concept. Both in terms of enabling people to travel further and commute more easily, this cutting car journeys, and also in terms of opening up opportunities to people who otherwise couldn't, because they are older or have some health or mobility issue, and also the use of e-cargo bikes for local deliveries.
It's just unfortunate that the actually existing e-bikes on the ground, especially in bigger cities, are a total disaster.
I'd also like to see a legal requirement that people using vehicles for their employment--couriers, food delivery people, etc--must have a license if their vehicle requires one and the employer is responsible for ensuring their vehicle is street legal. No more guys riding on the wrong side of the road on mopeds doing Deliveroo or blasting up pavements on an illegally converted e-bike.
The issue is just that it's a completely unenforced law
Like the ones against burglary and assault. There's a limit to what legislation can achieve if you have to rely on the Met to implement it.
I have seen delivery drivers using e-bikes here, but not often. Mostly it's still cars, because no one wants to give up the local practice of parking like an asshole.
Also, is 88 a lucky number somewhere in Asia? The delivery service that only Asian restaurants use has '88' on its signs.
8 is lucky in China, if I remember. It's a homophone for "get rich" I think.
That would make sense. I pretty much always go pick up food these days because I don't understand which delivery services are pure exploitation and which are probably normal exploitation. Also, the food is warmer.
Put together this
"We see regular cycle rickshaws are converted into e-rickshaws with a battery and a motor," Hoque said. "These rickshaw chassis weren't engineered to withstand the high speeds at which battery rickshaws are often driven, increasing the risk of accidents." The lack of laws has led to e-rickshaws being manufactured at makeshift workshops by untrained mechanicsthis
The fires are primarily DIY kits or mismatched chargersand this
workshops run on electricity connections that have been illegally obtainedand I don't find it surprising that banning was the government's first reaction. Just because Yggles thinks lax safety standards are okay in Bangladesh doesn't mean Bangladeshis do.
Agreed, 41 is right.
My pet peeve is that in North American a lot of crappy cheap ebikes are dressed up to look like motorcycles or Vespa-style scooters, and it can be hard to tell-- as a driver, pedestrian, or cyclist-- whether the vehicle you see on the road has a max speed of 30 km/h or 130 km/h, and whether it can accelerate from 0-100 in 4 seconds, or from 0-30 in 8 seconds.
I feel stupid for not realizing until this thread that our e-bike seems to have some sort of built-in throttle or speed limit of 20 mph, probably for regulatory reasons. I've noticed it getting close to that speed but not quite over. I've been curious to see how fast it could go if I wasn't on residential streets and/or with the kid on the back. I have thought about taking it to a trail and opening it up but haven't got around to it so far. Probably no point.
Isn't it pretty easy to exceed 20 mph on a regular bike, even without a hill?
No? I mean, I'm sad and weak and not a serious biker, but 20 mph on the flat for me is an all-out sprint.
Doing any kind of active reacting to things, I mostly wouldn't be much over 15.
I feel like a see bikes in front of me in the lane that are moving over 20 mph, but maybe those are e-bikes.
I haven't been biking much for a few years, but back when I was doing my long commute, doing the 14 miles in an hour was the best I ever did. That included stopping for some, but not all that many, lights, one big hill, and a lot of other bike/pedestrian traffic. At that speed (probably around 17 mph on the straight flat bits with no one in my way), I was passing more people than I passed. There were plenty of people who did pass me, but they tended to be very fit looking men either in full Lycra or in the sort of ragged shit that makes you look like a bike messenger.
To sum up, 20 mph isn't super remarkable, but it's at least quite fast.
I have ridden a bike maybe twice since 2000.
To sum up, 20 mph isn't super remarkable, but it's at least quite fast.
Yeah. On my commuter bike (a MTB set up for road riding, but not an actual road bike), I could just barely do 20mph on a slightly downhill when I was younger and in good shape and doubt I could do it now.
Class 2 is limited to 20, throttle or pedal; class 3 is limited to 27 with pedal only, throttle won't take you past 20. Both are limited to 750W (about 1hp). I've gotten up to 31 on my class 3 going downhill and cap at 27 on flats. So I'm passing most people especially going up hills but only if I'm putting in a fair amount of effort pedaling. Throttle alone can in theory get up to 20 but it's just now enough power to accelerate to that speed without pedal assist.
On straight roads with a bike lane 20 doesn't feel that fast. In crowded areas 12-15 fells like a safe maximum.
If my building wasn't badly set up for e-bikes (there's no way in and out without a flight of stairs, and some other issues) I'd have gotten one last year. I tried commuting to work on the Citibike e-bikes, and loved it: too expensive to do consistently, but loads of fun, and it made the 28 mile round trip no longer exhausting, which is why I quit on my acoustic.
58: 20 mph et al
40ish years ago when I was doing training rides in Houston for triathlons we would frequently head over to the deserted downtown on Sunday mornings. There are a set of NE-SW trending one way streets that had timed lights over about a mile and a half. Fannin and some others were timed at 22mph (I think) while Main and San Jacinto were 27mph. I could maybe do the whole of the slower one (losing time the whole way) but it was a hammer; I could do the faster for a a few blocks at full sprint. Some I road with were stronger and also less consumed with images of entering an intersection at full bore having just not quite made the light (the relative desertedness to my mind could make this worse).
So yeah, 20 is quite fast for most on a bike.
Forty years ago is about when I got my first 10-speed. The swimming team was selling raffle tickets and my dad thought we were selling crap to the neighbors too often, so he bought all the tickets my brother and I were supposed to sell.
63: Got a 10-speed my senior year and promptly rode it into a car bombing through a parking lot at 7:30 AM on our senior day class ride. Bike ruined and I was in retrospect definitely concussed but did not get treatment.
A part of why I was a generally timid rider to the annoyance of some of my biking friends.
"Got a 10-speed my senior year and promptly rode it into a car bombing through a parking lot at 7:30 AM on our senior day class ride"
This is what is technically known as a "garden path sentence".
64: biking path sentences, surely.
One reason that it's hard to enforce ebikes rules is that the ebikes typically all look the same. (Also weirdly named with class 2 being the banned one.) The worry for hobbyist ebikers is that the easiest way to get rid of the SurRon/Talaria riders tearing up the trails is to ban them all. I don't have an interest in an ebike now, but that's because I'm fit enough to handle the climbs and my riding partner is eleven and still slower than I am. Once the Calabat is a fully operational battle teenager and I'm staring at the wrong side of menopause, I'm going to have an Orbea Rise so fast. But only up to 20 mph.
Also 20mph is decently fast. Bike speeds are so dependent on terrain and wind that it's hard to compare, but my average easy loop I hold 18-19 with little effort on the flats, but the 6% climb home plus stoplights usually kill the average. 35 bombing down the hill but that has nothing to do with my power.
For me, I feel like the speed hits a steep increase in effort for me quite quickly. I was cycling a lot for most of the past 4 years but have cut down a lot in the last 6 months (work stress, covid, lack of time).
So holding 14-15 mph for a long time is pretty easy (hours). Hitting 20+ for short stretches is of a mile or two also not too bad. But averaging that kind of speed for an hour was beyond me. I think my personal 1hr record was about 17.5-18 miles, admittedly stop-start through London traffic and that was all out and I was over 25 some of the time. I am 50ish and fat, though.
Ordinary riders who aren't people who cycle a lot and who try hard when they are doing it are never going to be hitting 20mph on the flat.
Proper club cyclists of course are averaging over 20 on long rides.
I topped 55mph on a nice long and newly repaved downhill on Whidbey Island once, powered only by gravity.
Non-cyclists don't appreciate wind resistance, and how much difference there is between 14mph (easy) and 17 (hard) and 20 (really hard) and those speeds only maniacs can sustain (22-26), though the maniacs are usually riding in packs exactly because of wind resistance.
60: you live in NYC and have a 28 mile round trip commute? And you biked it? I'm astonished in many and varied ways. [googlemapping: battery park to inwood hill 12.6 miles via the Henry Hudson]. Don't feel the need to explain. I can remain impressed and mystified.
I live at exactly the northern tip of Manhattan (5 min walk to the Broadway bridge) and work right around Wall Street). I think the extra mile each way came out of the route not being ruler straight.
I never consistently did 5 round trips a week on my bike, though. Sometimes 4, often less.
I would also choose to avoid the Henry Hudson if I was cycling. Still, that's pretty epic.
The bike path is almost the whole length of the island and right alongside the Henry Hudson parkway.
No, my office moved across the street to a building with a bike room where I could lock up a full sized bike, so I didn't need the Brompton anymore. But then I stopped doing the commute at all.
I used to feel happy that I got paid parking but now I don't even have an office.
I don't think professional cyclists top out at much more than 50 kph* / 30 mph for men and maybe a bit below 40 kph / mph for women, and that's in race conditions. Groups working well together (drafting, etc.) and top individuals** can sustain somewhat faster speeds for a while.
*Watch a lot of sports that are primarily contested outside the US, get used to seeing metric all the time.
**Both the men's and women's hour records are above 50 kph, but I think only one woman has gone above that, just recently. The hour records involve a lot of high-tech aerodynamics and controlled courses. I'm going by my impressions of average road race speeds.
76: The top pros are a bit faster than that. Vingegaard's average speed in last year's Tour de France was 41km/h (25.7 mph). On the descents, riders get well over 100 km/h (60 mp/h). The fastest sprinters get up to around 70 km/h (43 mph) on level ground, keeping in mind that the sprint is at the end of a 100+ km race.
I think I should assume I could average 25 mph on the flat.
77: Fair enough, but my comment is about average speeds they can sustain for a while, not "indefinitely" but routinely, not downhills, sprints, and so on. I should have said that more explicitly.