Re: Animals

1

It's good to see the elderly committing crimes against nature instead of other people.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 6:54 AM
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2

What's the actual crime? He didn't have the right cloning license?


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 7:43 AM
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3

As the law points out, "History shows again and again, how nature points out the folly of men."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 7:45 AM
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4

Ramzilla?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 7:58 AM
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5

Arthur Schubarth of Montana used tissue and testicles from Marco Polo sheep to clone animal and create hybrid

Ewe!


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 8:00 AM
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6

Hunting is too easy when you can shout "Marco" and your prey shouts back "Polo".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 8:04 AM
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7

Has cloning got a lot simpler and more reliable over the past 20 years, or was this just sheep IVF?

Schubarth sent genetic material from the argali parts to a lab to create cloned embryos. Schubarth then implanted the embryos in ewes on his ranch, resulting in a single, pure genetic male Marco Polo argali that he named "Montana Mountain King" or MMK.

It seems weird the judge said part of his sentencing was wanting to "deter anyone else from trying to 'change the genetic makeup of the creatures' on the Earth". That implies cloning is illegal, immoral, or somehow contrary to public policy. Even if this is cloning, that's not illegal federally & only a few states ban it; this conviction was for violating the Lacey Act against illegal trafficking in wildlife.

I checked, this judge was appointed by Obama, recommended by Baucus.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 8:19 AM
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8

The god of wine and cloning.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 8:20 AM
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9

Human cloning is illegal, I meant to include; animal cloning is not.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 8:31 AM
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10

Totes human.


Posted by: Opinionated Marco Polo | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 8:33 AM
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11

7: putting aside for a minute whether there's actual cloning or genetic manipulation, creating and releasing invasive species outside their usual environments is non-controversially bad. Outlawed under existing law, with playing god as an aggravating factor, doesn't sound crazy to me.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 8:36 AM
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12

I guess that means my idea for a Rocky Mountain Gorilla is out.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 8:46 AM
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13

12: You're going to have to stop shaving for a lot longer if it's going to be convincing.


Posted by: Doug | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 8:50 AM
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14

creating and releasing invasive species outside their usual environments is non-controversially bad

I agree. But that quote emphasizes the problem as the violation of the genome rather than the impact on the environment, with the apparent implication that the judge would sentence lower if the man had simply imported dangerous invasive breeds, or their semen.

I haven't been able to find the actual sentencing decision though.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 9:00 AM
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15

Rocky Mountains suck. Cold, dry, racist.


Posted by: Opinionated Mountain Gorilla | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 9:00 AM
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16
Marco Polo sheep illegally brought into the US

They have illegal-alien-mecha-sheep?

* Obligatory archive link.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 9:02 AM
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17

I guess he could have been talking about the broader impact of the genes he imported getting out into the wild, rather than the technology by which they were imported.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 9:12 AM
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18

Court doc: https://dailymontanan.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/schubarth-ranch-sheep-cloning.pdf

I think the cloning & breeding exacerbated the crime because each animal created is also illegal (on environmental/Lacey grounds), plus it turned a potentially one-time bad decision into a giant years long enterprise.

And 100% makes more entertaining headlines


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 9:15 AM
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19

I feel the photo for the gorilla scheme is gorilla-exclusionary and really should have included more gorillas.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 9:16 AM
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20

Fuck that.


Posted by: Opinionated Mountain Gorilla | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 9:26 AM
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21

You goddamn people are always "Smile!" and then act all surprised when we gore you.


Posted by: Opinionated Mountain Gorilla | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 9:27 AM
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22

18: Thanks. That is the indictment and it's similarly vague on what materials were used, but it's quite clear that Schubarth at least saw this as cloning & was paying for it.

SCHUBARTH entered into an "Ovine Cloning Contract" to clone an unspecified number of Marco Polo sheep from the tissue. SCHUBARTH provided a deposit of $4,200 for the cloning."

He got 165 embryos of which apparently only one resulted in a live birth. That does sound more like the Dolly story!

I looked at the Daily Montanan for more PDFs and found this sentencing memo in yesterday's article, nothing from the judge, so now I'm wondering if the Guardian mischaracterized the DOJ's memo as the judge's decision. It has more or less what they quoted, albeit with some difference between the quotation marks, but adding up to a lot more like my interpretation in 17:

The crimes committed by Defendant Schubarth were serious in part because the ramifications could be devastating and permanent. A single escaped specimen could completely transform the genetic makeup of the bighorn population of Montana.

It further talks about the risk of bringing in diseases - with an example of animals he imported from other states, not embryo-carried diseases - and then, interestingly, that part of his operation was breeding with the extra-big bighorns and how that also hurts the ecosystem.

The selective purchase of the biggest and best bighorns has not only caused progressive reduction in the average size Montana's wild bighorns, but the later sale of that semen then commercializes the natural resource that rightly belongs to Montanans... Research and population studies show the size of Montana bighorns is decreasing, and recent studies have directly pointed the finger at selective hunting of the biggest specimens. When those trophy-sized rams are removed from the population so that their semen can be sold to ranches in Texas and elsewhere, Montana loses.

Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 9:41 AM
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23

I know the animals...are laughing at us
They don't even know...what a joke is
I won't follow...animal's advice
I don't care...if they're laughing at us.


Posted by: Opinionated David Byrne | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 9:44 AM
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24

18, 22: Yeah, it sounds like the actual crimes here were the importation and distribution of a prohibited species rather than the cloning per se, but the cloning was the mechanism that connected the two and thereby furthered the conspiracy.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 9:49 AM
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25

I wish the headline also included the word "conspiracy". And I wish the crimes included something that could be characterized as a "heist" so that could be included too.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 9:56 AM
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26

Charley probably knows actual law things. I just know goofy headlines.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 9:57 AM
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27

Yeah, it's a great story you brought us.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 10:03 AM
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28

That's a great final point in 22 and so so so hard to get across in practice, I find.

Well, people are often quick to pick up on how they can profit ("I'll have the biggest sheep by a larger margin! I can sell my crops as all natural!") and mysteriously slow to see the systemic damage ("altering wild sheep stock! Optimizing for Bt resistance!")


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 10:26 AM
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29

More robust public policy w/r/t 22. last would point to regulations encouraging semen-hunts. Catch, milk, release.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 10:29 AM
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30

Real men give hand jobs to sheep.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 10:30 AM
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31


I wish the headline also included the word "conspiracy". And I wish the crimes included something that could be characterized as a "heist" so that could be included too.

The guy's son smuggling sheep parts from Kyrgyzstan is kind of heist-adjacent.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 10:34 AM
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32

It also adds to the recent spate of Kyrgyzstan content on Unfogged lately, so that's nice.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 10:35 AM
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33

Oh I'm for sure hootin and hollerin over here


Posted by: Kymyz Mustache | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 10:51 AM
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34

On the other side of the border:
https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/dr-congo-conflict-fuels-forest-loss-2024-07-17/


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 10:59 AM
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35

Sad to learn from the positive gorilla article that the mountain gorilla is apparently the only great ape currently experiencing a population increase.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 2:29 PM
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36

One time I went to see those gorillas in Bwindi National Park in Uganda, down by the DRC border near which we were afraid to go. The guys who take you out in the woods bring rifles.

The gorillas were fun and playful and a joy to spend time with. Not like when we visited the chimps and they just hung out in the top of their tree and pissed down on us. Still, I'll take chimps over baboons, who are a bunch of assholes.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 2:58 PM
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37

Baboons are indeed assholes.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 3:46 PM
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38

Bonobos make nice trousers.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 3:57 PM
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39

semen-hunts would require considerably more skill on the part of the hunter, yes? Am now imagining a version of the Tain (sp, sorry) based on a squidgy handful instead of the whole bull.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 3:59 PM
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40

Meanwhile, back at the rural Maine homestead, I got to drive a miniature ox last week! I had not realized just how furry oxen can be. I got to comb them too!


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 4:11 PM
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41

Its good to start with a miniature ox. A lot of people start off driving full-size oxes, and if you don't know what you are doing it can be too much ox for the road.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 4:24 PM
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42

Don't get a Musk Ox. Everything that fucker makes is shit.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 4:26 PM
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43

One of my hosts, a veterinary technician, contends that oxen have a similar personality profile to cats. In cat-like fashion, they are interested in sniffing your hand but then they generally want to go back to whatever they were doing. And they let you know when they are hungry as well. Also, they don't appreciate novelty.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10- 1-24 4:30 PM
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44

Baboons are arses, but they're good at crossing roads. We saw a large troop come out of the trees and down to the side of the road we were on, where they lined up and waited patiently. The dominant male came out and checked the traffic, and when he was happy that it was clear (we weren't moving- we were watching the monkeys), he stood in the middle of the road and the rest of them crossed, first the females with young, then the others. As soon as the last of them disappeared into the long grass on the other side of the road, the boss male followed and they all went up into the trees on that side. It was an impressive exercise in collective discipline.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10- 2-24 4:00 AM
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45

MUTANT MONSTER SHEEP CLONING SMUGGLING HEIST CONSPIRACY CRACKDOWN


Posted by: OPINIONATED BETTER HEADLINE | Link to this comment | 10- 2-24 4:49 AM
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46

45 to the tune of Great Green Gobs of Greasy Grimy Gopher Guts. (extra) words to get the scan rught left as an exercise for the reader)


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 2-24 6:58 AM
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47

One time I had to wait for a sloth to cross a road and it took a very long time.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10- 2-24 7:04 AM
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48

44 - you mean baboons have invented lollipop ladies?


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 10- 2-24 7:08 AM
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49

Am now imagining a version of the Tain (sp, sorry) based on a squidgy handful instead of the whole bull.

I doubt there would be an eyeblink if someone found a lost early Irish text with such a Táin.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 2-24 8:33 AM
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50

48. Pretty much, although they're lollipop guys.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10- 2-24 10:36 AM
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