I've been on white-water rafting trips in Utah and Arizona, and yes, we do too pack it all out. The raft is loaded with military surplus ammo cans, and you take one out into the bushes with you, poop in it, latch it shut, and bring it back.
Yep. My friends who have rafted/kayaked the Grand Canyon take theirs with them as well.
Huh? Why would anyone want to pack the shit out? Isn't that the dungle beetle's job? What, they are on strike or something? I have seen them at work, and they are way efficient in clearing out any deposits.
Oh, for the halcyon days when Unfogged was about more than just shit-blogging.
if only you had known she wouldn't make you pack your shit.
There are some places where the environment is very fragile and you are required to pack your poop. And big commercial outfitters are often under stricter regs. If a trip with 40 people crapped in the same campsite on the edge of the Rio Grande every week, it would get scary pretty quick.
Also, while burying your crap is a good rule of thumb, it depends on the ecosystem. I think in the desert the microbes all live on the surface, so it will break down faster if you leave it in the open.
This used to be the bible, but I've heard it's a bit out of date. Check out the collection of "horrifyingly true wilderness toilet misadventures" that amazon recommends buying with it.
Hey, where ya been, cw? I already linked to that. Out of date?? New shitting rules? Depends on where you are? I'm out of my depth here. You can see why this is a problem.
Oh sorry, my memory span is down to about 18 hours and falling.
Hey, does Iran have squat toilets? I would so rather shit in the woods than use those things. I always manage to do something disgusting when I'm engaged in the gymnastics required to have a good dump and keep my pants clean simultaneously.
I used to be backcountry ranger for the national park service and forest service (over 10 years). The shit issue is complex, and you have to careful about just where you are and what the relevant shit problems are. The basic list is:
1. fecal choloform (sp?) and bacteria (e.g., ghiardia). That is, shit-contaminated drinking water.
2. Seeing/smelling the shit of prior travellers.
3. Eventual breakdown of shit.
4. Animal ingestion of shit (both b/c of (1) and b/c of problem animals.
Then you add in ecological factors:
1. Shit (and its bacteria) don't break down in freshwater.
2. Shit does break down in saltwater.
3. Microbes break down shit in dirt, but microbes don't live in mineral soil.
4. Sunlight / dessication does break down shit.
5. SHit don't break down when frozen.
6. Urine is sterile, but salty.
And management factors:
1. People don't like to pack out shit.
2. Backcountry toilets are a hassle, b/c you have to (a) eventually pack it out, (b) continuously dig holes, (c) use sunlight to pack it out, and (d) the attract garbage (people dump their spam cans and extra food in them), (e) animals become attracted to privies and (f) if they aren't cleaned, people wont' use them.
3. Learning the tricks of trade is difficult; even experienced backcountry travellers may not know the relevant differences between desert and forest and alpine and river and glacier conditions.
Putting all this together (sorry, this will be relatively non-systematic):
1. If you are in a populated area, use the toilet/outhouse for shit, but not urine. Unless there are salt-deprived animals. (outhouses fill, and you run into mgmt problem 2.
2. Pee on mineral soil or snow (so that animals don't eat / dig the plant to get the salt).
3. In forested areas with non-mineral soil, go far away from water, trails, or camping areas, dig a small hole (NOT all the way down to mineral soil), shit, burn TP, use alternative native materials, or use just a bit of TP, place remains on top of shit. Ideally, place something (rock, log) on top of your cathole to deter erosion and animal digging.
4. In non-mineral soil tundra, don't dig to permfrost, otherwise follow (3).
5. In unpopulated desert (way, way, way backcountry, no one likely to be by again for weeks), shit and smear into a thin layer so that shit will dessicate, breakdown/sterilize, and blow away.
6. In alpine areas, try to follow 3. If no good soil is available, (e.g., while climbing a mountain), "bluebag" it. THat is, get some bags for the express purpose of packing it out. You can empty and bury the shit when you get back to good soil, or carry it out.
7. On a glacier that is rarely travelled, and not upstream from something well-travelled (e.g,. way the fuck out in the middle of the Alaska range, or Bolivia, or maybe the Caucauses), you can shit in a paper bag and toss into a crevasse. Remember to stay roped in, dying while 'flushing' is a very bad way to go.
8. on river trip especially, do the ammo can thing (often desert, and people tend to use the same spots over and over and over, as they tend to 'funnel').
9. sea kayaking, sometimes it's okay to dump into the ocean. THis is no my forte, so someone correct me.
Note that there will be conflicts between rules, so you should always go back to the potential problems: is someone going to see this (either in the open, or by digging a cathole and finding your shit)? Is my shit going to get into the water? Will animals eat this and become attracted to humans?
Now, a couple more bits of info: 1. In the forested areas where many of us camp, shit breaks down within a year (I and others have done tests near our ranger stations). TP about the same, as long as it's in small quantities - big ol' blooms don't. 2. I've only had to pack my shit out when climbing on glaciers in the lower 48 states and on popular peaks in Ecuador. On very popular routes, there are places to deposit your blue bags (e.g., Camp Muir on Mt. Rainier). Shit smearing is gross, but one can get into the infantility of the moment. Trust me on this one. 4. In hot, dry, desert climes, shit will dry and blow within a couple of weeks.
Wow. Ive written a shitload here.
Wow. Thanks phred. I'm never leaving home again.
Ha!
Actually, it's kind of liberating. No trying to find a Barnes and Noble or some other friendly toilet when out and about. Just find some soil.
Amendment to (3). Put the dirt back in the hole.
Amendment to (2). THe trail is often a good place to pee. Look both ways first.
Finally, is it obvious that shit management was an essential part of being a park ranger? Not as glamorous as saving dangling climbers, to be sure. Hell, it's not even as dangerous as donning the Smokey the Bear outfit for cubscouts (which, fortunately, I never had to do).
Cool, phred. I learned something from that.
choloform = coliform (as in, bacteria similar in form to E. coli)
I don't see what the big deal is, as long as your disposal containers seal tightly. One of the glories of my one (and probably only) trip down the Colorado was choosing a scenic, preferably elevated spot for the can at each campsite, so you could have a nice view while you did your business. We tried putting the thing inside a small tent for the first few days, but the smell was awful. It's so wonderfully isolated out there, you don't have to worry much about privacy. Most campsites are curved (following the river), so you just put the can on the opposite side from your camp. Urinating is a bit more troublesome, for females anyway, since it must be done very close to the waterline, but the water is so cold that one doesn't want to pee *in* the water first thing in the morning. My daily morning ritual was finding a secluded rock to squat by while keeping an eye out for passing boats (few and far between, happily).
Ah, memories.
It's so wonderfully isolated out there, you don't have to worry much about privacy.
I'm sorry, I close the door even when I'm home alone.
cw, yes they have (some) squat toilets in Iran. People of European ancestry seem to have a lot of trouble with squatting with their heels not leaving the ground. Asians (of all sorts), seem to have the proper flexibility.
Of course sometimes people don't know when to squat and when to sit. I saw a presentation once by someone who consulted for companies on "intercultural relations" - or something like that - in the workplace, and she reported that one of the big complaints people had was that some employees were leaving footprints on the toilet seats.
I hope they knew that the plumbing could handle the toilet paper, or else I shudder to think what was going into the trash cans.
I'm sorry, I close the door even when I'm home alone.
Who are you hiding from?
BTW, it just tickles me that we have complicated the task of shitting in nature so much. Only humans ...
I thought part of what made us human was the fact that we don't shit in nature.
Asians (of all sorts), seem to have the proper flexibility.
I had a question about this. When I use filthy gas-station bathrooms, I try to do a sort of squat thing in order to keep from touching the petri dish. My legs are strong enough to move a moderate amount of weight in the gym, but doing that for more than a minute just kills the quads. Do I need to change my workout?
If you're serious (and who am I to say that you're not?), we're talking about two different squatting poses, I think. Squat toilets require the full squat. Like this. And I think you're talking about the quarter squat, like this. The first is a problem of flexibility, the second, of muscular endurance. If you frequent gas-station bathrooms (and who am I to say that you don't?), you might want to try adding some isometric exercises to your workout.
And though this Asian isn't in a full squat, I have to link to him anyway.
OK, why is that last asian dude taking a dump in my living room?
Because you really need to change that carpet.
So we should all be practicing squats to be prepared for any potty?
FL -- if that is the new Ethan Allan couch you bought before the holidays in the background, the designer really cheated you. Hope you got something else out of the deal too.
A couple of years ago, I took one of those fancy, catered and pampered whitewater rafting trips on the Tuolomne, just outside of Yosemite and inside the Hetch-Hetchy watershed. (Which was a blast, by the way. A bunch of inexperienced idiots led by a skilled guide through category 4 rapids.)
One of my fondest memories was sitting on the portable shitter in the glorious morning sunlight in full view of anyone who might pass on the river. Nobody did, but I would have waved.
Everything was packed out, but I didn't have to do it myself.
one of the big complaints people had was that some employees were leaving footprints on the toilet seats.
It's true about the footprints (well shoeprints actually) on the toilet seats. At least in China. But I think it's more of a cleanliness issue (i.e. aversion to touching bare flesh to a public seat) than actually misunderstanding how to use the things.
Speaking of understanding how to use toilets, are you aware of the advances of the Japanese in terms of toilet technology? I used to teach some English classes for a Mitsubishi branch in Shanghai that was equipped with these, and let me tell you, those things are confusing. One of the features is a heated seat, and the first time I sat down on it I thought that there must have been a previous occupant who had sat for quite a long while to warm it up that much. Ewwww. But once you got used to them, they were a pretty nice place to spend some quality time.
Oh, that just reminded me of one of my favorite toilet stories. In China a lot of public restrooms are extremely public. Basically they consist of a big room with a long tiled trench down the middle. Periodically some water washes through the trench to carry away waste. You squat down and do your busines in a line with umpteen other citizens, no partitions or anything between you.
There's lots of conversation and joking among the regulars, it's kind of like Cheers except everyone has their pants down. There's usually a bathroom attendant/monitor too to make sure things don't get too rowdy, and he usually sits in kind of a tall chair, like a lifeguard, surveying the line of chatting defecators.
Well one of my friends, of European descent, went into one of these while on a trip somewhere out in the boondocks, somewhere where they rarely see honkeys except on TV, and generally stare at same long and unabashedly (we called them "Revolutionary People's Staring Squads").
Generally those with little or no experience seeing foreigners don't even imagine that they might be able to speak Chinese. My friend is fluent, in both Mandarin and a number of dialects. After an initial hush when my friend walked in (he'd been saving up for a while and was pretty desperate to go), the regulars started talking again, but of course the new topic of conversation was this unexpected visitor.
He tried to pretend he wasn't comprehending what they were saying, but when one of them said, "Look at how white his ass is!", my friend almost fell into the trench laughing.
