The problem is that 70's music was just better than 80's music.
Many of the hits that we think of as 80's music were recorded in the 70's (e.g., Video Killed the Radio Star, Just What I Needed, Allson, Is She Really Going Out With Him, . . .) but the 70's also had artists like The Who, Joni Mitchell, David Bowie, Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, The Clash, The Ramones, Blondie, etc at the top of their game.
Not to mention King fuckin' Crimson.
I have noticed that The Greatest Time for Music Evar™ is almost always the high school and college years of the person making the pronouncement.
Hey, Men at Work was at least a 3-hit wonder. "Who can it be now?" was first. And who can forget
Jump off the Eiffel Tower (sound effect)
just have a look around
move fast
in the tunnels of the underground
?
Apostropher, I would have thought that you know better than most that it's totally out of line to make a reasonable comment before we have 20 ridiculous ones.
On topic, I'm not sure Eve is saying the 80's were the best decade for music, just the most deliciously one-hit-wonderish. I guess there was a stretch from the late fifties to early sixties that can compete.
King Crimson?!?!?! What are you, my first boyfriend???
::shudder::
Play "Sunglasses at Night" every two hours for the next three months and then tell me how much you like it.
Looking at the 50's and early 60's for one hit wonders isn't quite fair, since a lotta labels weren't really into LPs back then. But "Get a Job," "Rain drops" (not "raindrops keep falling on my head," this one), "Since I don't have you," "ya ya" (may not count since Lee Dorsey had later hits)--hells yeah.
I dunno, that Corey Hart dude was fucking hot.
*puke*
Anyway, isn't the point that the two most recent and ORIGINAL (as in not nearly as derivative as most of the music today (rap, etc., is too derivative to be considered original in my book)) musical paradigms came into existence in the 70s and 80s? ("progressive" and "grunge").
Yes, there was an enormous amount of crap back then. Sunglasses at Night, Carribbean Queen, that Kajagoogoo/Lemal thing ("too shy shy... hush hush, eye to eye" or whatever the fuck it was). Oh, and Huey Lewis.
OTOH, you have to admit that that "Milkshake" song was pretty damn catchy.
Rap is derivitave???
Jesus, you guys are old. And, could you be any whiter?
Eh, Link Wray and Hasil Adkins were doing grunge in the 50s. Progressive was just grafting classical and jazz themes onto arena rock.
Everything old is new again.
And b is right - rap was the first breath of fresh air in popular music in quite some time.
I can tell you this - almost no one is writing advertising jingles anymore. Nope. They are simply using tunes from the 60s, 70's, and 80's. But what's wrong with that? Every genre goes through it's golden era before it gets wore out. There are only so many perfect songs in any genre.
That's because they're aiming at the baby boomers.
Which, if you wanna be in that group, be my guest.
God, I am so fucking manic today. Sorry about that.
you're telling me that the creative use of other's material is qualitatively the same as the original creation of that material, B?
(Note, I did not say that rap wasn't a creative musical force, I merely said that rap itself was not a new paradigm.)
(Of course, now everyone's going to get all po-mo on "what is a paradigm...?" *yawn*)
and yes, I am old and white. that doesn't mean that I love Limahl (why do I remember how to spell that?), nor does it mean that I hate fitty-cent.
Yes, there was an enormous amount of crap back then [. . .] Carribbean Queen
B, you clearly didn't get your doctorate in music. Billy Ocean wrote the most crucial texts of the decade.
apostropher:
FWIW, my high school / college years were the 90's.
But a couple years back I made compilations of my favorite music from the 70's and 80's and I found that the 70's had far more songs that I would clasify as, "unequivocally great"
apropos the thread the 80's did have a lot of music that falls into the "irrationally appealing" category.
The problem that I have with celebrating the 80's is the amount of music in which great artists were completely swamped by the musical conventions of the decade. Listen to Tina Turner's Private Dancer album and tell me that it wouldn't have been an absolute masterpiece if the arangement and music weren't so terrible.
I'm not sure that Billy Idol could have made great music, but I think he suffered from trying to fit into the "80's sound".
I have a friend who's a musician who can barely listen to 80's music because he feels like everyone is trying to hard to fit into a completely artificial soundscape that it sounds claustrophobic and utterly lacking in spontaneous performance.
As an audiophile I would argue that there are a lot of songs from the 80's that sound great on the radio or on mp3 played over computer speakers that sound worse when played on a good system because the engineering to create an entirely artifical sound lacks detail when you listen closely.
From my 80's compilation there are a couple of songs in which the sound/sound effects work fantastically well (Blondie - "War Child", Joe Jackson - "Cha Cha Loco", Laurie Anderson - "language is a virus" to name a few) but the song that most of my friends select as their favorite from my 80's compilation is Billy Brag's "A New England" which is notable for not sounding like an 80's song at all.
Re 5: Where does black humor rate on the "we're totally fucked" progression?
whoops, that was re 8. Sorry for the slow reflexes but I had to talk to a human being in meatspace.
You're telling me that, say, DJ Shadow's "Endtroducing" (instrumental album consisting entirely of very well put together samples) is derivative? Of what?
And b, Larks' Tongues in Aspic == one of the best albums ever.
Ok, Prof. Goose, you and I, outside, now.
Shakespeare didn'tn write original plots. It ain't the content, baby, it's the form.
(pop music with much less emphasis on harmony-- what are the changes to those NWA classix?)
Well, what are the changes in much of Miles' electric period?
Labs, while I appreciate your support, I have to point out that pimping is old school: funk, baby, funk.
ben, did you or did you not use the word "sample" in that question?
sample. n. 3. A usually digitized audio segment taken from an original recording and inserted, often repetitively, in a new recording.
(and then let's not even get into "the sampling of samples" that goes on.)
I'm not saying that rap's not good music! yeesh. I'm just saying that it's not a paradigm because it's derivative...that's all.
you're telling me that the creative use of other's material is qualitatively the same as the original creation of that material
Breaking it down and reassembling it on the level of the Bomb Squad's production work on middle-era Public Enemy? Oh yes, absolutely. On a musical theory level, it resides next to Stockhausen, except Karlheinz never makes my booty wiggle. The great music of the 70s (and I'm with you - it's great) is largely just the application of electronic instrumentation and heavier backbeats to jazz, R&B, country western, and blues, not really innovation per se. The real innovation came from producers of the time using tape loops, effects, and whatnot, but then, that's just creatively using someone else's creation.
At the risk of hyperbole:
I would argue that Freeway of Love by Aretha Franklin is not only the most successful bad song by someone with actual artistic talent it is, in fact, so bad that it should taint the entire decade of the 80's a little bit.
Rod Stewart may offer some competition in the bad music category but I find the aretha franklin far more depressing (and I'm not a huge fan of her music in general).
All music is derivitave. Same ol' notes, over and over again, just mixed up.
(rolls eyes)
arrrgh.
sure, everything is to a certain extent derivative. I'll grant it.
I would argue that "progressive" (though FL's point about what the fuck that actually means is a good one) was the most original (though definitely still derivative of punk, etc.) musical form since the "rock" paradigm. Grunge was rock repackaged, sure, but with different and original musical temperment and subject matter...which is close, now that I think about it, to how I think about rap.
Perhaps it's my bias against the lack of original instrumentation and harmony (the latter of which I am admittedly a big fan) that's showing here. As I look back, I'm using terms like musical form, etc. Sure, the subject matter of rap is culturally important and is innovative...but the whole sampling thing has always bugged me.
Perhaps it's that you're white, white, whitey-white white.
Pr Goose, I don't understand what's derivative about using a sample. Especially if you use many short samples. I mean, in the obvious sense a very brief section of the result has been literally derived from another recording--but that's not what most people mean by "derivative" in this context, I think. Fred Frith's "Traffic Continues" contains samples of Tom Cora's cello playing; you would have to be seriously insane to consider it derivative of Cora, though.
see, I would even say that Funkadelia was more of a paradigmatic shift than rap. Parliament, now THAT's different, and wonderful, and innovative, and drug-induced. A beautiful thing.
But, perhaps I was young then and open to new musical ideas. Now, I'm just an old closed-minded codger. Either that, or I have no taste.
Prof Goose, I will refrain from jumping on the dog pile and ask the question that's been on our minds the whole time--what happened to dumbass young tenured guy?
I would argue that "progressive" (though FL's point about what the fuck that actually means is a good one) was the most original (though definitely still derivative of punk, etc.) musical form since the "rock" paradigm.
If by "progressive" you mean, you know, prog (what apostropher was talking about, although his chronology is wrong, since it predated arena rock), it predated punk, and according to many people is antithetical to punk (they're wrong, of course, but it's a commonplace).
God, you guys are old and lame. Here's hoping the contributions of she-who-must-not-be-named can make some difference, but will they be mere drops of cool swallowed up in an ocean of bad hair bands and Bangles jokes?
Ben, you are disqualified because your musical taste is the same as the guy I dated when I was 15.
I may be lame but I ain't old, pal.
Oh B. Ad hominem from you on an idea? Come on, you're better than that.
I'm talking about my qualitative judgment of what is a musical paradigm and what isn't. I made no normative statements about the quality of the music itself (in fact I like a good bit of rap very much) just about its musical and form derivation.
It's an opinion, an idea. Hey, maybe I'm wrong, sure.
Nothing new on the DAYTG front lately. I'll have to give him a call.
hate to comment and run, but I've gotta catch a plane. flame away. :)
Ad hominem = par for the course (still cranky over the fat/ugly thing).
Hey, white people sample too! See The Books.
Problem: The Books suck.
OTOH the first track from Aqsak Maboul's album "Un peu de l'âme des bandits" contains samples from every other track, and it's from a time when the only way to do that was cutting up pieces of tape (1977).
Problem: The Books suck.
That's the kind of ad hominem I can expect out of some people, but not King Crimson fans.
"almost no one is writing advertising jingles anymore."
That's because Barry Manilow already f***ing wrote them all! We have to wait til he dies and smoke his ashes! [/leary] But that whole "boomer song as jingle" jumped the shark when Carnival Cruises used an Iggy Pop song about a strung-out junkie to sell vacations.
But I don't buy the premise that the 80s are the high watermark for one-hit wonders. Edison Lighthouse, Spiral Starecase, The Cyrkle*, The Swingin' Medallions, White Plains, Free, and the ides of March all hit the top of the charts from 1966 to 1970, so perfecting the form of the pop music of the time that we play these tunes on oldies stations instead of 90% of the Beatles and Stones catalogs.
*The Cyrkle, while technically a two-hit wonder, actually brings us back to Do: its two surviving members actually are successful jingle writers!
Edison Lighthouse, Spiral Starecase, The Cyrkle*, The Swingin' Medallions, White Plains, Free, and the ides of March
Damn, diddy, I guess apostropher was right: I've never heard of any of those.
An interesting argument, but Men at Work "a one-hit wonder" -- when she names two fine songs off the same album? No sir.
Then again, I was a fan of the needy stuff like the Cure, so I don't buy her explanation.
Hey Matt W, Dee Clark had a hit with "Just Keep It Up". And probably another that I can't remember.
Okay, I AM old, and I am lame (had knee and neck surgery due to old football injuries) and I'm white but I still have something to say.
Music is notes, rhythm, chords, melodies, harmonies, lyrics, and timbre. Ignore any one of these and you are not talking music.
Sampling gives new timbres. Heck, the moog synthesizer was a revolution in new timbres, most of them based on the buzzy triangle waves featured in so many 70's songs.
Rap did provide changes in most all the areas listed above.
Dave H--Is it as good as "Rain Drops"? That's a motherfuckin great song. I was actually just naming off some songs from my "45 Rockin' Rollers" K-Tel comp (which, sadly, I did not buy off the radio).
One can point to any decade and cite examples of great songs and pure crap. Personally, a phenomenon I notice listening to my older music is how the experience is at times one of nostalgia, or absent the emotional dimension associated with nostalgia, perhaps a "historical" experience, and with other songs the experience seems fresh, alive, even after 25 years. Production values aside something like Gang of Four's "Armalite Rifle", or Sex Pistols "Anarchy in the UK" seem like contemporary (well almost) cuts, then I play the Motels or Gary Myric and the Figures and I just cringe. Did that sound good to me in '79? Yikes! Then listen to old X. . . . still fresh after all these years. Do some songs live outside of any timeframe? Does it mean they are great if they do and not if they don't?
Really? That's an entirely new use of which I was unaware. Does it do it well?
That is to say, I pretty much love it when anything sucks me god damn prick.
Hey, I had something important in that fridge!