"Thing Two: If you are 19, you do not want to date a 40 year old man."
People are just killjoys. Fortunately, it's okay to date those 46 or older; we know what we're doing!
#1 is clearly stolen from Washingtonienne - proof positive that her influence now suffuses the sex culture.
clearly stolen
Huh, and I was guessing that you were a lawyer. This reminds me of the guy on Kos who was accusing the apostropher of "stealing" his point about the right-wing lie being born. We don't know that Flea read or knows about Washingtonienne's line, right? We might say this is proof positive of the prevalence of guys who try to talk girls into anal sex.
Flea is the owner of a sex shop, so it's reasonable to assume that she was familiar with the concept of anal sex before anyone knew about Washingtonienne.
(Confession: I was writing about Wonkette before it occurred to me to check. Anal sex -> Wonkette is such a natural path to follow.)
guy on Kos who was accusing the apostropher of "stealing" his point
Yeah, we worked that out over a little painful anal sex.
I was talking about the form: anal sex (x) ... does not love you. I don't know what precisely about that formula strikes me as brilliantly hilarious; probably just the juxtaposition of "anal sex" and "love". What can I say, I'm a bit of a prude.
I don't read dKos, so I'm afraid I missed the Apostropher brouhaha.
A sub-point to #1 -- if your boyfriend insists on anal sex, he's probably been looking at way too much porn.
On Family Guy last night, the dad attended an event at his wife's insistence, and he said, "I'm only going because you wanted me to, and now you owe me. When we get home, I get anal.... No matter how clean I want the house, you have to do it."
What, really? When is that shit on?
missed the Apostropher brouhaha.
Comments here. Some fellow was upset that I stole the idea from his dKos diary two hours before he wrote it, thanks to my Superkoranic time travelling powers.
Gary Farber,
"Thing Two: If you are 19, you do not want to date a 40 year old man."
People are just killjoys.
Flea says that 40 year old men are "manipulative losers." She does concede that they are "really together" and have money and are good in bed, but my guess is they've stopped looking twice at her and she is suffering from Dr. Laura syndrome.
Family Guy is on TBS at 9:00 Central Time, two back-to-back episodes -- we usually watch it every Monday after 24, as kind of a stress reliever. It may be on other nights, too (including late Friday night, I believe). TBS seems to be trying to copy that model of the 5-8 block of syndicated shows and putting it at various times of the day. I'm pleased with it.
I simply wasn't aware that references to anal sex on a show that was, at least once, on FOX was done these days.
What a brave new world we live in!
Tripp, she doesn't concede that they're "really together;" she says that they seem that way to a 19 year-old.
Did Dr. Laura run a sex shop?
ogged,
Did Dr. Laura run a sex shop?
No. While married she took up with an older man to help her career to the point of posing for nude photos. Then she busted up another guy's marriage. Once she'd had her fun and got all old and scrawny she got "religion" and started her harpy career.
I know that, I was just saying that Flea isn't like Dr. Laura; she's not telling young ladies not to have fun, she's trying to tell them the ways of the world. I think her advice re the older men is sound.
I call that a good life; narrow, but vastly better than most
Men's lives, and beyond comparison more beautiful.
One thing I don't get about flea's advice. She says (these 40 year olds) are wincingly pathetic and are just using you to disguise the fact that it hurts him *really* *bad* (to get old)
Assuming for the moment what she says is true how does that negatively affect the 19 year old? Isn't a possible response to her "So?"
And does fear of getting old make one wincingly pathetic? I think this woman has issues.
Okay, ogged.
Specifically what bad thing will happen to a young lady who dates an older guy who has money, is good in bed, is more together than she is, and is afraid of getting old?
What bad thing will happen to this damsel? The guy will break up with her? He will break her heart? What?
He will be manipulative and just lead her on?
Not that that doesn't happen in relationships in which the ages are closer together, just that the type of 40-year-old man who's looking to date a 19-year-old woman is likelier than others to engage in such behavior.
ben,
Ahem. I think the average age of marriage for a woman is now what, 25? So is a 19 year old looking for a husband?
See, flea says the cryptic "You'll see" and ogged says "This is good advice," so my question is what will she see? He'll string her along for six years and then not marry her?
Assuming he is manipulative, what will he manipulate her into? Anal sex? A three some? As if.
Tripp, you keep misreading her, so I'm not sure she's the one with issues (I say lovingly).
40-year-olds who party with people more than half their age are wincingly pathetic
Not old people, and not people afraid of getting old.
As for harm, I'm not sure it's the right question. Insofar as we counsel people to date people of good character, flea's noting that 40 year-old who want to date much younger women are probably *not that* is just good advice. Anyway, come on, she says,
but...you're not listening anymore, are you? Forget it, then. You'll see.
I think she has a pretty good sense of humor about this.
The 19-year-old could just as easily lead the 40-year-old on, and unconsciously at that. Here the 40-yo thinks that he's found a child-bride, and within a few weeks, she'll get drunk and fuck some frat guy at a party.
Now that's a good point. We can only pray that they guy at the party belongs to the Unfogged frat.
ogged,
More assertions. Why are "40-year-olds who party with people more(sic) than half their age ... wincingly pathetic?"
It seems you are saying 40 year olds who party with young people (presumably because the 40 year olds fear getting old) have bad character. If so, why do you say this? Perhaps they fear getting old and being with young people makes them feel better. Yet somehow you dislike this. Should they get back to the home where they belong?
All this concern over tender young things makes me wonder - are you a cock-block?
Or they could get married and be happy.
Or when she's 30 he'll be 50, and when she's 40 he'll be with another 19 year old.
But nobody is saying this.
I think she could have subsumed her point into a broader one: "if you're 19 years old, that guy you're dating - he's a total dick." Let's face it, at that age, the last thing you want is a "smart choice." That's for later, when you're older and there's very little left for which you may reasonably hope.
Tripp, I think it was just meant in the spirit of general advice. To which there are certainly exceptions.
Kind of along the lines of "Don't dip your pen in the company ink."
I hope I haven't given offense, Tripp. This isn't an absolute rule, and I'm quite sure it can work in some cases. I "object" to it, and think flea's advice is good, for the reasons Ted laid out here, where the age difference stands for differences in accomplishment (again, that's not a perfect correspondence, but generally I think it's true).
So that was my problem in college: I was the smart choice. And now I only seem to get anywhere with older women whose friends think she's an idiot to date me.
(I was thinking of making some remark about a 40-year-old woman when I was 19, but at that point, my mom wasn't yet 40.)
That's a long time to remember a remark you never even made, Kotsko.
I'm a bit surprised that no one's talking about the truly shocking behavior described in the post: some women actually bring their boyfriends to their interviews?
Why are "40-year-olds who party with people more(sic) than half their age ... wincingly pathetic?"
Becuase generally 20-year old partying is really pathetic, and only excused because of the young ages of those involved. By 25, you should know better. By 30, you should really know better. By 40....well...
my question is what will she see? He'll string her along for six years and then not marry her?
Assuming he is manipulative, what will he manipulate her into? Anal sex? A three some? As if.
19 year old girls, as a general rule, are emotionally and socially vulnerable. Leading her into unhealthy behavior is a very real possibility. A 19 year old girl dating a man that old is probably not looking for an independent life, but someone to take care of her - making her even more vulnerable because of the power dynamic. And what is the 40 year old looking for? Mature, intelligent companionship is highly, highly unlikekly. Most of the plausible reasons an older man would seek a 19 year old girl involve unhealthy behavior for the girl. I'm sorry, Tripp, but I really don't understand why it's so hard to see why, the vast majority of the time, this is a bad idea. It's almost impossible for me to imagine how a 19 and 40 year old could have a healthy relationship.
eb--You've got one thing about anal sex, one thing about old guys dating young chickies, and one thing about shocking behavior in job interviews, and you're surprised we're not discussing the third? Haven't you figured out what makes these comments go yet?
If the boyfriends commit typographical errors in the interviews, then we'll start talking about it.
There does seem to be a lot of emphasis round these parts on acting your age. But what if you just think people your own age are kind of boring? What if people your own age have retreated into their own private domestic sphere and only like to talk about window treatments and ovulation?
Well, I am shocked about the job interview behavior - but no, I wasn't really surprised to see what the comments focused on. But if you read flea's post, she does imply that she's interviewed at least one woman whose boyfriend shrieked
"AWWWWWW SHIT!!!!!!" over various products every two minutes.
I didn't realize there were so many W's in "AWWW."
ac, your age is my age. And I have a bit of the same problem sometimes--lots of people our age are really into dyadic withdrawal. Sometimes it can be nice to seek out slightly younger people, or settings which contain a nice spectrum of people--so you're not like ten years older than everyone else.
Hm. I think what I'm suggesting is drag a 45-year-old along and then whisper to everyone "look at that Old Guy!"
Weiner, seems the problem ac was describing isn't that her peers are marrying off and socializing less, but that their inner lameness is rising to the surface like the cocoa butter in chocolate that's been left out in the sun.
"seems" should read "it seems to me that".
w-lfs-n, I just don't see the difference. (That applies to both comments.)
There does seem to be a lot of emphasis round these parts on acting your age. But what if you just think people your own age are kind of boring?
But can't this apply to all ages? That is to say, isn't this one of the reasons why a 19-year-old may want to date someone older? That seems to me one of the (potential) tragedies of the situation: a 19-year-old may be genuinely looking for someone more mature than another 19-year-old without realizing that a 40-year-old is probably not the best choice.
Also, w/r/t Matt's link: have Crooked Timber comment threads always been that incomprehensible?
I'd love to think other people are lame, and I'm eternally wondrous and interesting. Don't that's the case, though. I was thinking of dyadic withdrawal. But more simply or neutrally, I'm just not doing some of the things that lots of people my age are doing - marrying and having kids. I'm not against these things for other people, I'm just not quite there yet myself, not sure I ever will be. So although I can talk about the issues arising from marriage and children (and do all the time with my married friends), but cannot do this all the time, or I'd lose my mind.
"Flea says that 40 year old men are 'manipulative losers.'"
Well, those guys are, but not me! (That is, I wasn't then nor now. I'm just a loser!)
"She does concede that they are 'really together' and have money and are good in bed,"
One out of three isn't bad!
"I think her advice re the older men is sound."
As if you've dated lots of us, Ogged. And wait until your divorce.
Actually, the odds are extremely high that any given attempted relationship is a bad idea. Rules of thumb can help, and can also lead to missing out. Ya never know.
Myself, when I was 20, I knew quite a few cool people over fifty (or, shock, horror, over sixty) who were great at parties, experts on contemporary music, and all sorts of cool stuff. But, then, for many years I mostly hung out with people ten or twenty years older than me. Not to mention the woman I lived with for over a decade, starting when I was 15 and she was 22 (and our split had nothing whatever to do with age, or unfaithfulness), or the other relationships with women ten or twelve years older than me.
Nah, clearly, in the end, what's most important are social norms, and making sure no one gets out of line regarding them. Individual cases must be subsumed to the collective. Hail the social mechanisms that enforce the normative.
That should be "I cannot." (Since we're correcting ourselves.
I have some thought related to the sex advice, though, which I'm finding it hard to formulate. Basically, I wonder what advice Flea (or Ogged) would have for someone who likes to be hurt? Or, if not hurt, then not exactly loved?
(This strikes me as connected to the acting your age thing.)
You old guys are pretty touchy about being cast out of the social world.
clearly, in the end, what's most important are social norms, and making sure no one gets out of line regarding them. Individual cases must be subsumed to the collective. Hail the social mechanisms that enforce the normative.
There's some chicken and egging here. I can well imagine a society in which 40 year-old men are expected to, uh, mentor younger women, and do so responsibly, but that's not this society. So the advice to young women that they're better off avoiding those older men is sound.
have Crooked Timber comment threads always been that incomprehensible?
That's a classic thread. Chun's response to raj is wicked, and I wanted to cry when I read the Invisible Adjunct's comment. God, blogdom is poorer.
Thing Two: If you are 19, you do not want to date a 40 year old man.
What about the qualifier man?
I wonder what advice Flea (or Ogged) would have for someone who likes to be hurt?
Aw, c'mon, you know I'm a prude.
What about the qualifier man?
That's a good question. Doesn't seem like flea is reading here.
Ogged, you're right about that thread; I posted before I'd made it to IA's comment. I wish I'd been around when she (and Chun, for that matter) were still active.
Even our own Bob comments in that thread!
My sister-in-law married someone 15 years older older when she was 23 and he was 38. It actually seems like less of a big deal now that she is 41 and he is 56 and they have actual rather than theoretical kids.
I, unfortunately, know more than one of those 40-year-old men who likes the 19-year-olds (job hazard).
They often are incapable of dating women their own age (or closer to it). I wouldn't date any of those guys ... ick! They're slimy and immature. And at least the ones I know are using these young women. Why? It isn't just about the sex. (My personal opinion there is that they would be better off with a more experienced 30-something woman with those insane 30-something female hormones that make you want sex more than a teenage boy if it were really about the sex) It is about power and manipulation. And feeling better about yourself because these teenage girls look up to you when women your own age look down on you, loser that you are.
Not going to generalize here ... just saying this is the case for all such 40-something guys who do this who I've known personally. (And the mid-30s one who was into me when I was 20)
those insane 30-something female hormones that make you want sex more than a teenage boy
This is going to be some date.
I can well imagine a society in which 40 year-old men are expected to, uh, mentor younger women, and do so responsibly, but that's not this society.
Sometimes, that society and this society collide.
"You old guys are pretty touchy about being cast out of the social world."
Incidentally, I'm not seriously arguing that most or many attempted serious relationships between a 19-year-old and a 40-year-old are apt to work out, you know, or anything close to that, nor that I'm personally seeking to find a 19-year-old, or someone in their twenties, for that matter. I'm just a tad uncomfortable with blanket rules.
Actually, the youngest person I've ever been involved with was less than a year younger. Wait, that's not right, there was X, who was eight years younger, but that was also the only really huge relationship mistake I ever made (though it had nothing to do with age difference). But everyone else was either my own age or older.
The truly sad thing is uncomfortable to admit, which is that I do find it rather harder to find women in their forties whom I find physically attractive at this point then women in their thirties; it's not that they're not out there in significant numbers, but the percentage who are available does decline; I realize this has all sorts of criticizable implications, but it's not the easiest thing in the world to try to change one's cues-and-reactions from the forebrain. On the other hand, I'm only looking for one person, so the pool is still large, and my subjective sense of attraction is somewhat eclectic and not entirely conventional, as well.
Well, I'll probably submit to the social norm in the end. I'm kinda sorta headed that way. But it seems sad. (Which I'm sure the guy I'm dating would love to hear.)
19 year old and a 40 year old is icky, for most of the power-related reasons that profgrrrl mentioned.
18 and 30, that matter, seems icky, but in a way that 22 and 34 doesn't seem to be.
Is there an age cutoff for the icky factor? How defined is it? I was just reminded of the Monica Lewinsky/Bill Clinton liaison; it was common to hear (and seems to be right) that they were both consenting adults -- but the age gap had to be something like 22 to 48(?). And there's a pretty obvious power differential. But it just doesn't have the scent of ickiness that the 19-40 situation does, and that makes me wonder if we're missing the mark with our explanations.
Is there an age cutoff for the icky factor?
Rule of thumb I've always heard is half+seven, so the lower limit for 40 would be 27, for 30 would be 22.
Per that rule, I should be doing match.com searches for guys aged 24 - 54.
Cripes. A post regarding anal sex and love, and it devolves into long discussions about age-appropriate relationships. I think the standard here is the French Mistress Rule: .5*age + 7. So a 40 year old man is fine with a 27 yr old and up. Note that this also fits joe o's data points: a 38 yr old can date someone 26 and up, so 23's too young, but a 56 yr old can date 35 and up, so 41 is fine.
anal sex and love
It can be such a thin line sometimes.
Hi Unfogged. Thanks for the link.
1.) I do not steal other people's work. As a sex toy store owner, I talk about anal sex with women every day, so it's not quite as titilating to me as it is to people who don't work in the sex industry. The advice comes directly from the two dozen or so young African-American women who come into the store wanting numbing cream to ease the pain of anal sex because their boyfriends have told them they'll either cheat on them or dump them if they don't capitulate. Given the rise of reported cases of HIV among young, straight, African-American women, this piece of advice isn't remotely Washingtonienne sexy, it's horrifying and sad. Any similarity to my phrasing and hers is coincidental. I am not a plagiarist.
2.) I don't really understand the "what if they like to be hurt" question, so I hesitate to answer. If you can be more specific, this kind of question is perfect for my pal Andrea Nemerson, who works at the outstanding San Francisco Sex Information hotline. You can reach Andrea at www.altsexcolumn.com.
3.) As far as the age difference goes, I think as soon as a college student graduates and spends a couple of years getting beaten down by the workforce (and getting more life experience and independence), age differences matter less. My sister is 15 years older than her husband, (she's 45, he's 30) and they're very compatible.
4.) Dr. Laura? Aren't you just the slightest bit embarrassed by your own rhetoric? Really now.
flea:
The bit about stealing from Washingtonienne was a joke (made by me); I quoted her line in comments here a week ago, and ogged was insufficiently impressed by the wordplay.
For those scoring at home: 45*.5+7 = 29.5
Whoa, no need to direct me to a sex hotline, thanks. It was really more a philosophical question. I just meant that not everyone is in a relationship looking for love or kindness. Or their definition of love is kind of fucked up. But I realize the advice here was for more practical problems/questions.
Last fall Slate ran a very informative article about black women and HIV/AIDS. Apparently, part of the problem has to do with anal sex that doesn't involve women at all.
I thought the "half+7" rule was from Little Women, not some French mistress.
And while this is going to sound patronizing to the youthful among us, my sense of what's wrong with the 40-19 relationships is that a 19-year-old usually isn't an adult in the sense of being able to protect themselves emotionally and stand up to manipulation. I'm not suggesting that the age of consent should be higher, because this is a continuum and if we don't draw the line somewhere, no one will ever get laid.
Still, most people, even well into their 20s, really aren't capable of dealing emotionally with a 40 year old on an even level, and a 40 year old who's looking for 19-22 year olds knows that, and is, in my view, probably looking for someone to push around. Once the younger partner hits 25 or so, on the other hand, I don't think the age difference means anything important, other than what's appealing to the people involved.
a 40 year old who's looking for 19-22 year olds ...is, in my view, probably looking for someone to push around.
Hell, we're all looking for someone to (emotionally) push around; what saint did you marry? Also, I didn't know the rule came from Little Women; that makes me wonder about the guy who introduced me to it. But don't you think it's cool how well it works? And aren't you marginally surprised that no one seems to have won some sort of award for sorting this out?
Hell, we're all looking for someone to (emotionally) push around; what saint did you marry?
Someone I had a shot at being able to take in a fair fight (emotionally), who knew that that was true going in. (and, yes, a saint for other reasons.) Look, anyone who picks their romantic partners because they're weak enough to control: (a) sucks, and I don't want to know them, and (b) is going to end up with romantic partners who resent them. Not so much fun for anyone.
Mine was a joke, LB. You probably know that, but it's a creepy enough statement that I feel obliged to make that clear.
Whoops, I was having a humorless moment there. My apologies for having thought moderately ill of you.
No worries, LB. We all bring our own concerns to the table; I'm increasingly obsessed by the possibility that in late May ogged will reset his clock, and sometime thereafter I'll officially be having less sex than him.
More seriously, it was probably good that you said it. I tend to assume that most of the commenter here have led the ridiculously privileged life that I have, in which I've had very little contact with the worst sorts of all manner of abuses. Probably not the best assumption to make, and, in general, I could use a little chastening.
flea,
4.) Dr. Laura? Aren't you just the slightest bit embarrassed by your own rhetoric? Really now.
I dunno. Are you embarrassed by your rhetoric (manipulative loser, wincingly pathetic)?
And ogged, yeah, you did insult me. You made a blanket statement based on age. It is clear to me that in real life if you saw me conversing with this very same group of people here you would think I was intrusive and pathetic and would want me to leave.
As you know, I'm 48 and married for 23 years. I'm not 'after' any dates. I do understand the potential for the power differential problem. But really. When I married I was making good steady money in a technical field and my wife was a struggling actor. I was 25, she was 23. If you know actors at all you know they are very insecure, for good reason. We had a big power differential.
Nobody was jumping in and belittling our relationship. Nobody was telling her she had to marry some other actor. Nobody was telling me I had to find someone who matched my earning potential.
"They can't score with women their own age." That is not always true. What about Clinton? What about hollywood stars?
And now flea informs us the age of consent is not 18, it is not 21, it is after a women graduates college and has been beaten up a few years in the workforce?
Ha. So men should date cynical, bitter women because they can't push those women around?
Here is some bad news for women. Many times young women are attractive not because they are pushovers but because they are cheerful and happy and still optimistic.
I like being around youth. I like the energy and the happiness. I like the fun. I like joking. And yet I'm old. Some of my colleagues have died. I can see death coming for me.
Soon society will be nudging me off the stage. I need to act my age. When will I quit my job? I should stop going to some parties. Why don't I move to the home? Don't I know that everyone is talking about me behind my back?
You and Matt have done a very good job of telling me in no uncertain terms that I am NOT welcome at some of your gatherings.
Tripp--
Barring Yglesias (whose comment I found irritating and I'm a woman in my thirties) everyone else has been talking about dating, not simply socializing with younger people, so your taking it personally seems misplaced.
So men should date cynical, bitter women because they can't push those women around?
The implicit opposition you're drawing here is 19 year old women on one side, and the unattractively bitter on the other. While I, myself, have been unattractively bitter since early childhood, and revel in that state, surely you've got to see somthing wrong with the attitude that once women develop the ability to fend for themselves, they're all mean and cynical -- the only nice ones are the ones with that fresh-out-of-the-box innocence about them?
Tripp, I'm very sorry to have offended you. I've been trying to make it clear in the comments that I don't think this is a blanket rule and LB is right that socializing, rather than dating, is not at all the same. What flea, and I, and others have been saying, and I really think it's all we're saying, is that 40 year-olds who set out to date much younger women are generally skeezy. At least in my mind, that has nothing to do with you, and we love having you here, especially since on the internet, we can't hear your bones creaking.
LizardBreath,
You are right. I created a false dichotomy. Also, ogged and flea, I know that you were specifically talking about the dating situation and not simple socializing.
In real life to some degree I am 'passing' for younger than I am. People seem surprised to hear my real age. I have learned that in programming and theatre it really helps to keep a youthful appearance. So because I don't look 'old' I get to hear more of the old people bashing that wouldn't be said to an old person's face.
For those younger people (especially my own children) that know my age I still get comments that I should "quit trying to act young!" This message is stated directly, but it also comes out in comments like "you are making a fool of yourself and everyone is laughing at you."
That comment is especially funny because one of the nice features of being old is that I no longer care about that. Only young people are so constrained by peer pressure.
If I was single would I date a 19 year old if I could? Depending on the person I wouldn't let her age stop me.
Would I be wincingly pathetic, a manipulative loser?
I'd be called that but I'd still be me.
Perhaps because I am stable and married I am free to say the following - as you get older pretty women still look pretty. You don't get tired of attractive women, even 19 year olds, just because you have gotten older. If you like them now you will like them then.
The only difference is that as you get older you will be told in no uncertain terms that you are sick for having those feelings that were perfectly fine when you were young.
Well, there is one other difference. As you get older the older women start looking good, too.
I don't think anyone here would think it sick to find young women pretty; it's just weird to try to date them. I'm younger than you, but even I wouldn't feel right dating a 19 year-old. Anyway, seriously, good for you for not becoming an old coot.
Well, yeah. I'm older than ogged, I think, and I've copped in the comments here to having inappropriate thoughts about cute young paralegals in their early 20s. And it's even more socially unacceptable for me, because I'm a woman! So I see your 'dirty old man' and raise you a 'lecherous crone'.
I don't know -- there's something in the idea of the older sexy woman that's not only accepted, but celebrated. It comes out of the meme that young men are not succeptible to harm from older women in the way that young women are from older men. Evaluate that however you will, but I think it is alive and well.
Then again, we have the word "old crone." I mean no offense here (avocados are healthful) but I think this has something more to do with prejudices involving age and sexual desirability with women.
As you get older the older women start looking good, too.
This is very, very true. They also seem beautiful in a way that younger women simply cannot. Not that you ever stop turning your head at 19-year-olds, because, let's face it, that's a great age.