If you really want to make a go of this advice column thing, you need to lay off the meta scene-setting and make the advice a bit more pithy.
I don't particularly want to make a go of it besides bringing enlightenment to all you savage hordes. Believe me, I need every word.
Reading the letter and comparing it with some of the information about you that you've discussed, I was wondering if you'd taken to writing to yourself. I'm glad you qualified in the main body of the post.
All advice boils down to "Judo chop!"
If you're doing it right, anyway.
bad date blogging to come
I'm torn between expressing sincere sympathy for something that is probably not an awful lot of fun, and pointing out something that became clear when we were all being little gits on the thread on the thread that launched this project: the part of ogged's estate that you have inherited seems to include the part where we give you shit all the time. Don't sell it for a mess of pottage!
My advice is embrace the slut image. Buy tighter clothes, wear big earrings, sashay, and invite all your guy friends over and be really really affectionate with them. Might as well play this shit up.
s/b "on the thread on the thread on the thread thread thread"
Thank you for clarificationing.
I will anguish until I've identified the novel to which Bummed refers.
You might try the cary tennis route, tia, and only halfway mention the problem at issue.
I'll take the provisional, belligerant position that her husband should be battling the nay-sayers on her behalf; if he doesn't know about or sufficiently appreciate her qualms and worries, she should let him know.
I'm presuming that the nay-sayers are people within the husband's circle, not randoms. If there are nay-sayers within her circle, it would be her responsibility to sort out how to deal with her husband's relationship in that regard.
Seriously, if it's to work, there's no point living in shame with regard to anyone with whom one associates. Address the shame or the associate part, and address it *together*.
I'm going to come out against the nay-sayers. If they persist in saying nay, then Bummed is legally and morally entitled to kick them to the curb. And the curb kicking shall commence.
Where have all the yay-sayers gone? That's what I'm talking about.
I'm the gigolo from work, and it's *totally not my fault*.
I think I'm on JM's side: you should make the guy do some of the work, too. But this is a question without room for a lot of discussion (I predict) because it's all variations on "tell them this way" or "no don't bother." It's hard to subtly bring up a topic like this after the moment has passed, but perhaps one of these judgmental adults will do you the favor of bringing it up again, thus allowing you to correct the record.
Also, Tia, sorry about the thing, of course. B seems to know best.
Oddly, I've been in almost precisely the position of the boyfriend before. Except for the novel. Unfortunately, there isn't much Bummed can do. People will think what they think. My advice would be to come up with some retort along the lines of "You can't steal what somebody else throws away." A few seconds of uncomfortable silence are likely to follow, but you'll have made your point without saying anything nasty.
Yo, Tia, if you want to go to the Armory show, to get out and do something lovely, you know, I'll be going on Saturday. Shoot me an email.
Also, Tia, sorry about the thing, of course. B seems to know best. ???
9: The Cary Tennis route is to only half-mention the problem, talk about your drinking issues, and paper it all over with pretentious pseudo-philosophy and Really Deep Metaphors.
I can't believe solution, as proposed by many others, isn't obvious: the guy should be addressing it, as it's his kids' friends' parents. I can't believe it hasn't already been done. There must be missing facts in there somewhere.
I'd join you, JM and Tia! I really wish I could.
god these advice columns are always so bloody virtuous. I've been in the situation where I basically did break up someone's existing ten year relationship, and my advice would be to just hang around being reasonably polite and after about three or four years they will more or less accept you. I doubt there is any particular way to speed this process up, although never ever mentioning the ex's name (either you or your husband) will help. Getting worried about what other children's parents think makes no sense at all, since the little bastards have a new "best friend" every two weeks.
Careful, Tia, 14 is really an invitation for that long-awaited rumble.
What kind of relationship does bf have with his ex these days? The behavior of the friends seems to me almost incomprehensible unless she's been spreading a new line about the causes of their breakup. That is, it strikes me as extremely odd either that people close enough to the situation would just forget the publicly available details or that people too tangential to know about them at the time would feel comfortable making digs about stealing someone's husband. All this to say that trying to set the record straight may be more complex than it seems--it might be that a conversation between boyfriend & ex is the necessary first step.
by the way, I want to hear more about this "gigolo from work". Am I right in understanding that a gigolo is a male prostitute and if so where is this workplace?
re: 16
The guy might feel embarrassed admitting he's been cuckolded. [There's a word you don't get to use everyday]
It's fine to tell your close friends that your wife was having an affair with some guy at work but it's not the sort of thing you want to admit to strangers or acquaintances -- there's still an emasculating stigma attached to it.
That's not to say that he couldn't be telling people that 'You know X and i met after P and i split up, right?' but the reason he might not be is he might feel uncomfortable with what happened.
Also, having been in a loosely analogous situation myself, the ex-wife might be pretty embarrassed about what happened and may well be i) not telling people what really happened and ii) happy to let them infer the fault was with the other person.
I have one long-term ex g/friend whose parents and friends -- to this day -- still don't know why we broke up and many of them probably suspect it was something I did.
Also, re: 21 "that people too tangential to know about them at the time would feel comfortable making digs about stealing someone's husband"
I'm surprised you think that's extremely odd -- people make those kinds of digs all the time. The schoolyard mommies can be teh judgemental.
I don't understand what "before after having an extremely public affair" means. The before-after part, I mean.
I think I get the gist: the letter-writer entered after the wife had left. But, where does the "before" come from?
22 -- I'm pretty sure gigolo has a second meaning, the one that Tia is using, of "young man who is opportunistically dating a wealthy older woman, for the sake of the pleasant things she buys for him."
Or rather, "the one that Tia's correspondent is using"
"I don't understand what "before after having an extremely public affair" means. The before-after part, I mean."
I think there's just a missing comma here: "his wife had left him months before, after having an extremely public and embarrassing affair."
I think Tia's advice is good. Anyone who'd make a comment to Bummed about having "stolen" her boyfriend away is being rude, and I think the proper response to rudeness is almost always wide-eyed ingenuity:
"Why would you say that? He was single when I met him."
And let them stammer around the foot in their mouth.
Alternatively, she could warn her neighbors that unless they start shaping up, she'll steal their husbands too.
Alternatively, she could warn her neighbors
The legendary economist Thorstein Veblen was rumored to make a habit of seducing his colleagues’ wives—one of the reasons, maybe, he never had a permanent stint anywhere, but went from department to department. On his arrival at a new billet, the story goes, some of his new co-workers met in an office to discuss the problem. Veblen is supposed to have happened by in a corridor, overheard enough of the conversation to divine their concerns, and stuck his head in to the room, saying, “Gentlemen, I’ve met your wives, and I can assure you, you have nothing to worry about.”
I will anguish until I've identified the novel to which Bummed refers.
Me too! We can guess, without seeking confirmation. Popular novel, popular novel. Man having affairs. Hmm...
Might the ex-wife* or one of her friends have written the popular novel?
--
*(I was going to write "the spurned ex-wife" but this doesn't fit, since she did the spurning. Is there an appropriate construction here? "The spurning ex-wife" doesn't sound right, since the spurning is past, and "The having-spurned ex-wife" is right out.)
d2, I think den Beste answered that question a while ago.
d2, I think den Beste answered that question a while ago.
B: invite all your guy friends over and be really really affectionate with them.
Is there an appropriate construction here?
The appropriate one would not be a polite one.
If only the wife had left the husband for a woman, and were writing the novel herself, she could be Cathleen Schine.
6: I have often taken this approach. If I'm going to get stared at, it might as well be for my extremely whorish outfits. I can't do it at the tykes' birthday parties, though.
9: Unfortunately, it's Auster's most recent bit of crap.
10: As Tia has suggested, it's mostly neighbors whose marriages are on the rocks. Also, my bf's a hottie. The neighbor ladies, though still married, take a shine to his being a good daddy, baking bread, reading books, and so forth. It's hard for my bf or I to confront with, "You're just jealous!"
21: The ex has borderline personality disorder. The bf confronts her weekly about this and that (and again, the affair is the least of her problems), and she sits stone-faced before replying, "I don't recognize what you're saying." She acknowledges the fact that she left and moved in with the gigolo, but she claims she had to because she "didn't like who she was with [bf]." This is the reason she gave the kids, too.
22: The gigolo is a guy she met at a non-profit where they worked. When they met, he was living with a girlfriend whom he claimed to hate but stayed with because her father was paying the rent. When gf found out he was cheating with bf's ex, she kicked him out and he started sponging off ex. They have a joint bank account and ex is still trying to settle a half-a-million-dollar divorce. I.e., they're still not divorced.
25, 27: yes.
29: The husbands have suggested as much as well, which I find a little disconcerting. I don't want just any old dried-up hubby.
32: Yes, the ex grew up in Auster's circle.
And, Tia, good advice. I need mo' better comebacks. Unfortunately, a lot of the hostility comes from people who really know better, even about the situation. One woman who knows the story intimately well still met me with, "So, honey, are you still in college?" to which I respond, "Yep, still working on it. After my B.A. I kind of fell into a master's program, and goshdurn it if I didn't get caught up in a Ph.D. I should finally finish next year sometime."
I can't do it at the tykes' birthday parties, though.
Maybe you could be the whorish clown, twisting obscene animal balloons.
Huh. Well, if they all know the truth, and are just determined to be jerks about it, then I expect efforts at enlightening them aren't going to help. But I maintain, like MH says, that the best attitude towards rudeness is just innocent politeness (though it can be pointed innocent politeness--the way you described your education sounds good). No amount of bitchiness is going to better the situation, although if you think it would just make you feel better, then go for it. Also, I originally thought it would be better for you to do the correcting rather than bf, because if your goal was to correct an actual mistake and get these people to think well of you, it looks better if there's no appearance that you're hiding behind your boyfriend. Now I'm not sure. On the one hand, it is kind of his responsibility to make his associates treat you well, but on the other, since the thing they're tarring you with is little baby girl with a big daddy, it might be more effective to deal with them yourself.
It sounds as if the problem is more the age difference than the perceived homewreckerdom, given that the people who are sniping seem to know the facts. Given that, I'd say that the Irascible Welshman's advice is probably the way to go -- sit tight and everyone will get used to you.
Depending on your personal style, you might throw in an element of trying to come off as more mature -- if your presentation is very youthful, work on looking/acting/whatever a little more grown-up. (There's a good chance that this isn't an issue, or that there's nothing you can do about it. I'm just saying that if your customary hairstyle is pigtails, you'll probably get less shit if you modify that.)
And there's a lot to be said for returning hostility for hostility. If someone talks about your 'stealing' your boyfriend, a fullscale blankly horrified stare, followed by "What an unpleasant thing to say, is going to make them back down, probably with a certain amount of murmured "You don't have to be so touchy." It'll be awkward, but you'll take less crap in the long run.
the problem is more the age difference than the perceived homewreckerdom
This might be wrong based on that they have already been together a couple years. When I first got involved with my wife (who is an undisclosed number of years greater than ten older than I) we got some fish-eyes from her friends and specifically her family. But that seemed to wear off mostly after a year or so. Cropped up again when we were engaged but subsided quickly. (Though we did have to confront her brother and sister-in-law about the view uf us two that they were inculcating in her nieces.)
It's true that many of them have gradually gotten used to me. And, oddly, when I see them in the neighborhood and I'm alone, we can make friendly conversation. That makes me think it may just be jealousy. Most of them have driven, tired, or emotionally distant husbands and my bf is fun, happy, and helpful. It's nice to fantasize that he's available, and since he and I are extremely independent (both commitment-phobic), it's also easy to fantasize it. No harm in that, I guess. I just get tired of having to do the same rigamarole with everyone I meet.
I also wonder if it's my personality that grates, too. I don't dress little-girlish, but I bring up incredibly un-WASP-y things like politics, gender theory, and theological problems. I'm not that interested in home renovations or bourgeois travel plans.
Younger men aren't percieved as a sexual threat by older men in the same way younger women are by older women. While people might have thought your relationship was peculiar, you didn't fit into a script where the husbands of all your wife's friends were worrying that their wives really wanted to trade them in for someone your age.
47: That's especially interesting in light of the way the ex's affair played out. Apparently my bf spent the entire time thinking, "She's getting off on him 'cause he's a younger guy, but she'd never leave her family for him. He's a loser who could never take care of her." (She had never learned how to cook, clean, take care of the kids or work full-time before she left.) The big shock for him was not that she had the affair, but that she moved in with the guy and lied about it while totally screwing the kids over.
You could just give the people making a fuss a slightly less insulting way to reference you: "No, I'm Rebound Girl. It's just been a long rebound." This way, they still get to be cruel (which we think is the motivation), and the claim references the nature of your relationship rather than something about your character.
42: LB is teh right! Hostility is the way to go. Totally call them on derogatory or even ambiguous remarks. "I'm sorry, but could you repeat that?" is a great way to begin. Force them to clarify, while maintaining an air of detached incredulity. Unless they are totally shameless they should find this treatment embarrassing. You will have to be prepared to escalate, when they are totally shameless. However do not let them believe that they can say this kind of shit to you without consequences.
Or Judo chop! is good.
I feel like I'm getting the same Mineshaft advice perplexed got: Learn Martial Arts. You have no idea how often I fantasize about the Judo chop! solution.
Really, it's the answer for everything. Probably solves Labs' workout dilemma as well.
Killing silently is a tall order, but a quick look at an anatomy chart will show that the larynx is an easy enough target—providing you can make a stealthy submerged approach, sneak up on your victim, and catch him unaware. Once that's accomplished, grasp his hair as close to the scalp as you're able to and yank his head back while using your Ka-Bar combat knife to make a lateral cut across his throat. Make sure you sever both the carotid artery and jugular vein while piercing the windpipe, and press hard; the larynx is a tough, rubbery piece of tissue.
Hey Jackmormon, I do want to go to the Armory show. I emailed you.
Tykes' birthday parties? Dude! The slightly slutty mom is a venerable archetype! Just wear heels to the barbeque and a blouse with a plunging neckline. Step away from the party (thereby leaving your* kid to the care of others, which is always a good thing) to have a cigarette out by the garage. Supply the children with non-parent approved presents: dangly earrings for girls with pierced ears, big bucket o' candy and gum, toy gun, whatever. Embrace the Auntie Mame role, and you won't be lonely in your old age.
*I realize the kids aren't, technically, yours, but ykwim.
huh. you're making me want to read paul auster and i don't even like paul auster.
will be sure not to buy but check out of the library, though. :)
Tia, I'd reply by email, but the yahoo interface is totally freezing up on me. Very frusterating! I'll try again later in the afternoon, but the short version is: smallish group of nerdy grad students meeting up at noonish. Send me an email with your phone number, if you like: I at least can read it, now that I've rescued your address from the spam filter.
So let's review here: it's considered morally problematic to break up a marriage? Why, at B's age, I'd broken up dozens!
Apparently not if you're Welsh.
I'm so jealous, I'm going to miss everything. Bah. Fucking robbers.
'Smasher, had you been planning to come up for the show? Is there anything in particular you recommend looking out for? (I totally plan to harrass Edward_, if he's there, as I think he will.)
Tia, I just sent you a weird email with my cell number as the subject line. Call me tomorrow morning!
come on people, you don't need this Victor Virtue advice. I am semi serious in saying that my old dad gave me two pieces of advice, number 1 being "twat him if you really care about it" and number 2 being "if you don't care about it enough to twat him, do you really care about it?" and between the two of them, they pretty much exhaust the conceptual Hilbert space of advice.