Eh, at least on the front page of that blog, even in the silly internet way you pretend to see into people's souls, the only case where the woman seems better than the guy is in the monosyllabic yutz photo. She's telegraphic pretty, sweet, undouchey girl. All the other women seem douchey in the same way the guys do.
I would've picked the beach picture. And of course that's the one where the guy says "the chick ain't super hot." I think we have different tastes in fake tan (I don't find it attractive).
The funniest picture is the topmost one in the March archives. Douchebag factor=11.
Right, but she is equally--alright, alright--almost as douchey. That is the fundamental truth that the author of this website fails to grasp. If attractiveness was a free pass from douchiness, many of the guys on that site would be rescued too.
Tia speaks the truth, except that that woman is really quite attractive. (And relatively pale!)
Wouldn't it have been funny if the douchebags were literally douchebags?
This is the "Ducky" thing all over again. Which reminds me, when that came up I don't think I made my point: Although "Why do girls like jerks and not me?" is pretty unforgivable, I think many guys of my generation were scarred by Reality Bites. So many of our female friends thought Ethan Hawke, playing the platonic ideal of a douchebag, was hot. Of course Winona Ryder's character probably deserved him.
Tia's right. And the guy who runs the site seems susceptible to the kind of stuff that's comparatively easily manipulated--showing some cleavage, tight jeans, glossy hair-n'-lips. And that's fine, but it's a kinda facile measure of hotness.
it's the time of year for undergraduates to dress inappropriately.
Geez Labs, quit being so satorial-normative.
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satorial-normative
Hey, navel-gazing is navel-gazing.
Dammit. Sartorial-normative. There goes that joke.
You people are insane. Labs offers you the sweet, sweet water of truth, and you refuse to drink it.
Labs, I think the problem is that there's a gender-related attractiveness asymmetry. I'm much morre familiar with the overchicked phenomenon than the reverse.
Yeah, I was wondering about that, Tim. I was remarking to ogged via email that when I browse personal ads, I often see attractive women (often unattractive women as well). But when, out of curiousity, I look at men's ads, they mostly horrify, digust, or sadden me. It seems that the effect outstrips correction for heterosexuality. Huh.
Do most people want to be liked for their looks, though? That seems to be the way to deal with beautiful people: play on the fact that they yearn to be appreciated for their souls.
"satorial-normative"
Hey, navel-gazing is navel-gazing.
Very nicely played.
Haven't we had this conversation before?
Women are more attractive than men because a) they put more work into it and b) because we're socialized to associate certain salient woman-aspects with teh sex. I think I've made just this comment at Unfogged. But rarely did the pairings on that site seem that mismatched, and the women were displaying all the same personality flaws as the men.
Also, I think most women, beautiful or not, want to be appreciated simultaneously for their souls and their hot, hot bodies.
rarely did the pairings on that site seem that mismatched, and the women were displaying all the same personality flaws as the men.
But it's not funny to think that hot women don't also have great personalities.
It's kind of depressing, actually. My whole world is shattered. Thanks, Tia.
I have noticed that many women are torn on the issue of "being appreciated for their hot bodies" -- on the one hand, yes, everyone wants to be considered attractive, but being appreciated for one's body opens up the possibility that one would be disqualified for social benefits due to factors ultimately beyond one's control. For someone with a liberal sense of entitlement, such a thought is intolerable.
The high preponderance of guys getting women "above their means" might be an indicator of the continued existence of male privilege -- the "masculine aura" as such is sufficient to compensate for unattractiveness, within certain limits.
If lots of people tell you you're beautiful, it's not that interesting. The asshole thing can work because he withholds praise, or is alternately interested just for shallow reasons and something more (at least pretends to aim for more), or for perverse reasons the woman decides that he should see into her soul, even if he doesn't at all.
Compare Cheever's "Chaste Clarissa."
My friends who are universally considered very attractive, though, still seem interested in praise of their physical aspect when it comes from the right quarter. But it would suck for them, as it would for anyone, if the attention focused too much on the physical. I guess I don't have any friends who are model types, or who are totally glossy and perfect, but the women I'm thinking of know they're hotties and don't want for male attention.
But when, out of curiousity, I look at men's ads, they mostly horrify, digust, or sadden me.
Yeah, what Tia said. Guys are less likely to put a lot of effort into grooming and presentation, and if they do so in any way that strikes the viewer as even vaguely off, then they get penalized for being douchebags because they're trying too hard. They aren't required to make themselves attractive nearly as much, but they've got a smaller target to hit (well groomed in an effortlessly insouciant manner so as to look like they completely don't care what they look like).
This goes back to that post of Scheherazades' about not finding fashionable men attractive.
I'm talking within the context of douchebags/assholes. Why this particular douchebag or asshole, of all the douchebags and assholes in the world? If he's not so good-looking and his personal qualities are questionable, it's probably some elusive quality about the relationship, possibly some intermittant reinforcement.
I had a hard time loading the Hot Girls With Douchebag site's photos, so I gave up browsing through it, but seriously: we need a control. What kind of guys with hot chicks are not douchbags for him?
Weiner, I said it there also, but thanks for that link over in Crooked Timber comments. I don't normally either look at my own sitemeter except on either the day I post something or the day after, so I didn't realize I was getting a bunch of hits (a bunch for me being a very low number) until I caught up on my CT reading, started reading comments in that thread, and before I could recommend myself, saw that ,a href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/13/the-ethicist/#comment-151592">you had.
Part of it is that it's harder for men to distinguish themselves as hot or not. JM mentions that the women are showing cleavage, etc. I don't think there are comparable moves for men. You see the same thing when you go clothes shopping; there is a wealth of variety in clothing for women that doesn't exist for men. I have no idea what the male analogue of the mini skirt would be, for example.
Whatever it is (I'm not sure either -- tight jeans and a leather jacket?), a guy dressed up in it would be condemned as a douchebag for trying to look sexy.
either (the first time), a working hyperlink. Time to rethink recommending things I've written.
I have no idea what the male analogue of the mini skirt would be, for example.
Banana hammock?
The male equivalent to cleavage would obviously be showing the chest hair, and that is one of the most infallible signs of a douchebag -- or else a successful businessman in his fifties.
Whatever it is (I'm not sure either -- tight jeans and a leather jacket?), a guy dressed up in it would be condemned as a douchebag for trying to look sexy.
Because he would be douchebag. He's trying to do something that's not possible, and in doing so succeeds only at pointing out the failure of it. There are similar boundaries for women, but the boundaries just aren't as restrictive as they are for men. A guy stuffing socks down his pants is a douchebag; a woman wearing a low cut shirt is not.
showing cleavage, etc. I don't think there are comparable moves for men
Au contraire.
One of my hottie friends is currently in a happy relationship with a guy who's "objectively" way less hot than she is. In fact, I'm sure he'd qualify, if photographed with her, as a douchebag to this blogger. He's got dorky facial hair, etc. But in that case it was just that she liked him, which is probably the case in most of these circumstances. Guys always *seem* like douchebags when they've got something you want.
See? You try to think of what a man could do to make himself look good, and can't come up with anything that doesn't make him a douchebag.
(One of the funniest meetings I've ever been in was with a shady businessman who looked like he was dressed up to be a shady businessman on the Love Boat. Tens of thousands of dollars of jewelry -- big, big chains, and a diamond belt buckle the size of a dessert plate. Bald, very tan, and with a boldly striped shirt open to expose giant gold chains nestling in chest hair. I spent the meeting giggling quietly to myself, and shushing the little voice in my head telling me that my economically soundest option was to snatch the chains and head for Brazil.)
I have no idea what the male analogue of the mini skirt would be, for example.
That goes back to Tia's 17b. Breasts and women's legs are inherently sexy (at least for attractive women). A woman can signify 'sexy' by showing them off. For guys, there's no corresponding body part that signifies sexy and that it's acceptable to accentuate.
This guy, whatever you say about him, is ripped; and showing that off in itself gets him judged a douchebag. (And really, how about Ms. Atlas Shrugs there?)
34: That image is of an installation that was in a window right next to the entrance to my old firm.
Well, if they have them, guys can show off their biceps. But to this crowd, the wearing of a cutoff shirt would signal douchebag, too, I'm sure.
He's trying to do something that's not possible, and in doing so succeeds only at pointing out the failure of it.
But it's not impossible, it's just unacceptable in our current society. Men have dolled themselves up to look sexy throughout human history -- they just don't do it with any great success in 21C America.
(somehow I left that comment without reading the second paragraph of yours, Weiner.)
The camera generally adds douchebagness, making any guy who might really be a normal guy seem like a huge douchebag.
1. The Asian guy doesn't seem like a douche to me.
2.But it's not impossible, it's just unacceptable in our current society.
Amounts to the same thing. I'm not wedded to an idea of "natural" attractiveness (though some of it seems pretty straightforwardly natural to me).
they just don't do it with any great success in 21C America.
Powdered wigs are poised to come back in a big way.
And padded stockings to show off those sexy, sexy calf muscles.
Oh, thank god Tia is already on top of this thread.
One addition to what she's already said: often "hot chicks" are hot, in part, b/c of either great insecurity or great vapidity (or both). I'll leave it to each of you to work out the reason why insecurity & vapidity --> hotness.
I guess I have hottie friends dating guys they know are douchebags, and yet can't break up.
I find the idea that you can judge someone to be or not to be a douchebag solely from appearance vaguely disturbing, even when I agree with many of the assessments.
Don't we all also know attractive guys dating women who are jerks?
The male equivalent to cleavage would obviously be showing the chest hair, and that is one of the most infallible signs of a douchebag
I disagree (and not from self-preservative reasons, either).
Kotsko would feel differently if he had chest hair, ben.
49- I don't get it, is it anti-feminist to say that women tend to be more objectively physically attractive than men? Take more care of their appearance and so on?
To me, the essence of male douchebaggotry is probably gawdy jewelry of any kind.
The problem with that blog is that the concept is great but the execution is lousy. In particular, the diagnoses are inaccurate, and the commentary is not what it could be.
Asian guy, for example, is just hot. When I look at his stomach I'm not completely sure that we're the same species, because nothing could make my abs look like that. Even though I'm convinced I could move more weight, I could never approach anything like that definition. This makes me sob quietly in the dark, but I don't think he's a douchebag. Some of those smug fratty guys, on the other hand, well,...'bag!
52: Yeah, women mostly do, b/c blah blah patriarchy. My point was only that the "why do good-looking girls date dumbass guys?" thing is silly; good-looking guys also often date dumbass girls.
52 - Also, women look far less silly naked than men do.
58: But this only proves that a common set of baseline assumptions is important. Tia also thinks Taylor Hicks is hot; I think he looks like the creepy, pervy science teacher I had in 8th grade. (NB: I haven't seen him on Idol, so maybe I'm missing something.) I can't very well prove that Taylor Hicks isn't hot.
What kind of guys with hot chicks are not douchbags for him?
From his Blogger profile: "I'm the biggest douchebag you ever met. The problem is I don't get the hot bitches, so I'm like the anti-douchebag douchebag. They need a new term for my sorry ass."
the concept is great but the execution is lousy
If only Zach had more time on his hands, think of what he could do with this. In that link, by the way, "Hotel, Mohel, Holiday Inn" is one of the greatest things ever.
Jeez, apo, don't you even read my posts anymore?
Also, it should be noted that the dude's wearing a trucker hat in his profile photo.
I've got a new name for his sorry ass: envious wanker.
Asian guy is kinda hot, now that I have finally uploaded that photo. The girl with him, though, sets off my skank alarm.* French maid outfit?!? Sparkly tiara?!? Shimmery eyebrow-enhancing makeup?!? What, no portable wind-machine?
*By which I mean "enthusiastically participating in her objectification by the patriachy." Of course.
It's pretty plainly a costume party, JM.
But the resemblance to this picture is uncanny. Isn't it? If Glenn Reynolds were a hot ripped Asian guy instead of a douchebag.
Weiner with an apo moment! Sweet.
Matt, that counterfactual is really straining at the bonds of modality, isn't it?
65: And so? That means that dressing as a French maid isn't a form of enthusiastic participation in your own patriarchal objectification? Not that we haven't all done it (participated, not dressed as a French maid, jesus), but ain't no point in pretending it's only pathetic if she actually walks down the street dressed like that.
Re: 66; the sexy ketchup bottle outfit would at least show some originality.
And I'm not mollified about the eyebrow-ridge enhancing shimmery stuff, which is make-up's holla out to airbrushing.
[/arbitrary value judgments]
And so?
And so, denouncing college-aged women for slutting it up at costume parties is akin to denouncing dogs for barking.
The recent comments sidebar doesn't seem to be updating itself very well.
71: Much like denouncing college-aged guys for being douchebags, in fact. Gander, goose, baby.
Gander, goose, baby.
That's ludicrous. Storks bring babies.
76: No way. Is this the face of a douchebag, I ask you?
STARE! STARE INTO THE DOUCHEBAG!
[wiggly fingers]You will all wear French maids' uniforms now.[/wiggly fingers]
Women of any age slutting it up is a good thing. If you want to argue that men behaving like douchebags is a good thing, more power to you, B.
Now, see, I can't find that Asian guy hot; his muscles signal that he spends far too much time at the gym.
58: Hooray! The mere invocation of my name is an argument! Sweet (I am apparently too frightened of SB to add the "h" though). It's taken me much longer to get to this point on Unfogged than it has among my real life friends. Probably because I can't do the eye narrowing thing here. (I kid, I kid.)
I actually do think that men look on average more ridiculous than women naked, but only because we're taught to see them that way. A naked man, if his body isn't utterly perfect, often looks weak and exposed in a way that we're not supposed to see men, but we are supposed to see women as weak and exposed, so women's bodies seem right when they're naked. But if you hang out in the locker room and consciously jaundice your eye, you start to see why every woman's body is also ridiculous, and we're all just a bunch of floppy naked apes. It's mostly because women are given a prescribed bunch of poses they can strike to signal teh sex, and because we all think "women! teh sex!" that women don't seem ridiculous naked.
Reasons for the overchicked/underdicked phenomenon: there are more hot women than men (see comment 17). Hot women confer more status on men than hot men confer on women, so men have more impetus to pursue hot women exclusively. That's about it, I think. And I do know of men who've dated unattractive female douchebags who they knew were douchebags. The intermittent reinforcement thing works on them too. I don't think that's the phenomenon here though--the blogger just thinks, this girl is hot, and doesn't consider what she's telegraphing about her personality, and is jealous of the guy, so every piece of evidence of his douchbaggery is pounced upon.
79: I'm pretty sure you know that I'm not gonna agree with either of those statements.
In response to a specific situation, as a visual kind of "fuck you," and clearly not meant seriously, yes. But I'm actually going to be cranky on the implication that women acting like sexbots is always good, and that since obviously that's a given, my real argument here is that guys have a free pass to be assholes.
81: In all seriousness, I assumed you were pro-slutting-it-up. Or at least pro- "we should remember that slutting it up tells us nothing about the person's competence, etc." I certainly subscribe to the latter view; more to the point, I worked to learn to subscribe to that view in order to be a more decent person. I am actually entirely befuddled by your response.
Don't we all also know attractive guys dating women who are jerks?
Possibly, but not being gay, I don't know which guys are attractive.
NICE TRY!
Just use me as the template, Ned.
84: Erm, I kinda know what B. means, but not well enough to explain myself. A starting point is that there's a difference between not judging a woman as immoral or incompetent or anything like that simply because she's presenting herself in a sexually appealing fashion (good! and the thing which you taught yourself to do, and thereby became a better person) and not judging a woman for anything if she's presenting herself in a sexually appealing fashion, because that's all that's important about her (bad! women are sexbots).
Like, say, the picture on that site with the idiot on the motorcycle doing a wheelie with the woman in white in front of him. He is clearly a douchebag, just for posing in a picture like that. She's intentionally in the same picture, posing with some idiot on a motorcycle. While she's very pretty, that doesn't save her from being equally a douchebag -- it's not like the idiot on the motorcycle sneaked into the picture behind her.
Sorry, I saw some sort of "INTERNAL EXTERNAL SERVICE ERROR: PLEASE MAKE A NOTE OF IT" thing when I posted the comment, and refreshed, and forgot that this created another post of the comment.
None of that gay "understanding computers" shit for me.
With regard to the douchebag pictures, I think the website owner is not just judging the people on their hotness, but on what their personality seems to be. The problem is that you can't really do that via a still photograph.
I can look at the way a person walks down the street and instantly be 100% sure that he or she is extremely stupid and arrogant, but I couldn't tell from the way they pose for a photograph.
Unless there's some sort of props in the photograph that were obviously chosen by the people in the photograph. That motorcycle, for example, implicates both the man and the woman.
it's not like the idiot on the motorcycle sneaked into the picture behind her
It would be really, really funny if he had, though.
Hm. Well, I'll try to explain, though I need a nap badly. Slutting it up, especially but not exclusively for young women, is usually an expression of insecurity and a desire to be accepted and approved of; it also, unfortunately, often goes along with assholish attitudes towards other women ("if she made an effort, she'd be prettier") and for that matter, men ("all guys are dogs"). Just like, for most but not all men, especially when young, acting like jerks is an expresion of insecurty and a desire for approval ("no bitch is gonna pussy-whip *me*, etc.). Women's accomodation to this kind of bullshit is, I think, on the whole less directly dangerous and offensive, but it certainly isn't *good*.
OTOH, sexual play is fun; but context and speaker matter. If apo says he's gonna fuck me in the ass, we all know that he's a good guy and I'm gonna take it in the spirit intended and slut it right back at him. If some guy at a frat party says that, I'm gonna bite his head off. If I send pics of my fine ass to someone, we all know that I'm a smart chick and that whoever-it-is is going to take it in the spirit intended and play along; if some sororoity girl posts naked pictures of herself on the web, we're going to view that as pathetic.
Which doesn't, of course, mean that we're assholes enough to view the pathetic sorority girl as a whore who deserves to be raked over the coals for it. We'd probably be harder on the fratty guy, in part because his assholery comes from a position of privilege that the sororoty chick's doesn't. But the particular version of being-hard-on-asshole-guys that consists of "they don't deserve to date pretty girls" contains a kind of implicit idea that pretty girls are commodities, and that prettiness is the *primary* value that women have going for them. It's mostly that attitude that I'm really bothered by here.
87: I don't disagree about the woman with the motorcyclist. Two things that strike me as interesting:
- I think of the woman in the motorcycle picture as a species of girlie-girl. I seem to remember furious disagreement with my prior reasonable policy suggestion that all girlie-girls be be exiled to South Carilina. (NB: actual suggestion may not have been made.)
- I think, contra Weiner, FL and I are suggesting an explanation for why women date jackasses: there's an oversupply of cool women.
Ok, Tia just outed herself.
Tia: his muscles signal that he spends far too much time at the gym.
Janet Weiss: I don't like men with too many muscles
Coincidence? I think not.
the particular version of being-hard-on-asshole-guys
You said hard-on.
91 to 84. 87 is a good response as well, especially that first paragraph, which is way more clear and concise than my explanation. Told you I need a nap.
If only we were amongst friends... or sane persons!
I seem to remember furious disagreement
I had been thinking of saying, "Why isn't the anti-cheerleader contingent pointing out that all these hot women are doing everything they dislike?"
Progress! I think my reaction to those photos comes from this conjunction:
(a) many of those men are really signalling themselves to be douchebags; and
(b) many of those women are not-- they're just dressing in acceptable ways in the context.
Perhaps this debate arises out of (b)'s questionable truth. Could be that my douchebag detection devices are more sensitive when directed at males.*
*Daniel Dennett thinks this is why I believe in the One True Douchebag, all-knowing, all powerful.
Also, about the woman in the motorcycle picture, the problem I have with her is not so much that she's with that guy -- otherwise there would be an a priori proof that all couples are matched in douchebaggery -- but that she's striking a dumb pose. OTOH, since my only interaction with her is going to be through looking at this picture, I don't feel so bad about saying "But she is pretty."
Which is why going to a costume party in a sexy ketchup bottle costume could be a sign of being kinda cool as well as, potentially, sexy, while going to a costume party in a sexy French Maid costume (with a pretty-princess tiara!) is just t3h l4m3.
There's an aesthetic-verging-on-moral difference between spicing up your everyday look and trying to incarnate some generic Maxim ideal.
And, Tia, I agree that Asian guy's muscles were a bit exaggerated for my taste. It was the sincerely happy-looking grin that redeemed him for me.
98: I think that sort of gets at it. In the Asian-guy picture, the woman in an outfit is at a Halloween party or something. She's clearly playing at something.
Are you people serious? Don't tell me I'm the one most committed to Asian Guy's hotness. Christ, I've turned into a giant muscle queen.
Perhaps this debate arises out of (b)'s questionable truth. Could be that my douchebag detection devices are more sensitive when directed at males.*
I think this is distinctly possible. (And goes both ways, of course. I'm sure there are categories of male douchebaggery more easily detected by other men.)
Also, about the woman in the motorcycle picture, the problem I have with her is not so much that she's with that guy -- otherwise there would be an a priori proof that all couples are matched in douchebaggery
Well, but it's not just being with the guy, it's being with the guy and actively involved in his doing something stupid. If the idiot on the motorcycle had a girlfriend, embarrassed by the whole thing, and off sitting on the hood of her car reading a mystery novel, she might be a perfectly decent person with poor taste in men -- as it is, not so much.
One of only three Google hits for "sexy ketchup bottle". And if you actually take the time to read it, then I apologize in advance.
No, no, I'm all over AG. (Or would be, virtuality and marital status permitting.) Very attractive indeed.
107: this is leading to the least-likely threesome ever, isn't it?
This site has photos of indefensible levels of douchebaggery.
This site has photos of indefensible levels of douchebaggery.
Hey, page 4 of that link contains one of the pictures at the douchebag blog!
Don't tell me I'm the one most committed to Asian Guy's hotness.
I would not call myself committed, but when I imagine what women would find attractive in a man, it's hard to imagine that it would be a whole lot different from AG. Of course, maybe that's because (with a few caveats) that's what I look like when I take my shirt off.
(Necessary caveats: If I were 25 years younger, 150 pounds lighter, better looking and asian).
93: I'll take that. Especially since I think it means that I will get hotter and hotter as I age, until eventually I'll be synonymous with "sexy old lady." I've only seen snippets of that movie, but based on the snippets I've seen: Tim Curry? I'd so totally hit that.
B, LB, and JM are saying what needs to be said. But, to take the motorcycle pic as our definitive example, not only is the woman being douchey, she's being douchey in basically the same way as the guy; it's just a question of degree. They're both acting out some cliched gender tableau w/o a hint of a wink, and the wink is what redeems cliched gender tableaus.
Tim Curry? I'd so totally hit that.
Really?
I would argue that there is a difference between what the guy is doing here: making a stupid hand gesture; and what the women are doing: just kind of standing around being a little too done-up. I think there's a general mismatch of this kind on the site, and at least conceivably, in the culture at large.
I don't think being a little too girly or slutty constitutes douchebaggery, and have (Tim may grant me) been pretty consistent about this. I read a lot of that winking at gender stuff as having to do with social class.
98: Is it true that "intuition pump" is a Dennett original? I'd picked it up because some number of my undergrad professors used it, and then the other day I used it in a crowd who hadn't heard it and credited me for it. Not wanting credit which I didn't deserve, I googled the term, and google indicates that it is his.
ac, I, for one, am not getting exercised about these women or these men. I just think their positions are basically similar. I agree in the pic you just linked the guy is doing something douchey and the girls are standing around. I actually might take back what I said about the motorcycle pic; on consideration, I think it may be so over the top that it is in fact not douchey, but entertainingly silly, but I still claim that what the man is doing, the woman is implicated in, and she's doing something similar too.
108, 114: I think we've found an even less likely threesome.
Oh, and sheesh. You knew what I meant, apo.
For guys, there's no corresponding body part that signifies sexy and that it's acceptable to accentuate.
Ways To Accentuate Male Hotness, By A Gay Man, Namely Myself, Who Is Not Hot But Sure Does Like Hot Guys Who Can Show It:
1) Show at least a little bicep. It does not require Guido muscle shirts, as a ringer tee that's sized right will ride up on the arms and do it for you. (On the other hand, if you've got the guns for it, go with the muscle shirt. Why not?)
2) Jeans that fit well in the back. Seriously. If you want to look hot, do not wear jeans that have a Hefty bag sewn into the seat, all hanging around back there like a deflated balloon. Do not hide your ass under a bushel basket.
3) Jeans that fit well in the front, combined with undies that lift & support. Honestly. You have junk. You want others interested in your junk. Give them something to think about, junk-wise. But don't stuff. Don't get obnoxious about it.
4) Flat-front slacks. Flat-fronts are made by a large and complex machine called the Batch-o-Tron 5000. They emphasize the junk without looking like you're trying to emphasize the junk.
5) Tailored dress shirts. Yes, a shirt that fits you right the first time and doesn't "blouse" out to create an air gut will make you hotter.
6) A loosened tie with unbuttoned top collar. Look like you just spent a hard day down the spreadsheet mines. I'm not kidding. Prep-gone-to-seed is just wicked hot.
7) Get a frickin' haircut (or grow your hair out and be done with it already). Do not look like you simply need a haircut. Do or not do, there is no try to look hot with an expensive 'bed-head' haircut.
8) Boot-cut jeans. Seriously, they set up some sort of visual resonance that makes anyone look thinner.
9) Stand up straight. It sounds dumb, but it really does suggest confidence, it lines things up to look better, and it suggests you feel at home in your body. It's hot.
10) Accept that if you look hot everyone will think you're a total douche, then continue looking hot. Male hotness is about showing off the right parts of the male body and showing off a willingness to show off. That means attitude, which others will interpret almost universally as either being a total douche, a queen, or a queen who's a total douche. You know the hottest moment in that ice-skating video apostropher posted? When the guy hangs his hat on his crotch at the end. Total macho douche move. It also gave me shivers of the good sort.
For guys, there's no corresponding body part that signifies sexy and that it's acceptable to accentuate.
Ways To Accentuate Male Hotness, By A Gay Man, Namely Myself, Who Is Not Hot But Sure Does Like Hot Guys Who Can Show It:
1) Show at least a little bicep. It does not require Guido muscle shirts, as a ringer tee that's sized right will ride up on the arms and do it for you. (On the other hand, if you've got the guns for it, go with the muscle shirt. Why not?)
2) Jeans that fit well in the back. Seriously. If you want to look hot, do not wear jeans that have a Hefty bag sewn into the seat, all hanging around back there like a deflated balloon. Do not hide your ass under a bushel basket.
3) Jeans that fit well in the front, combined with undies that lift & support. Honestly. You have junk. You want others interested in your junk. Give them something to think about, junk-wise. But don't stuff. Don't get obnoxious about it.
4) Flat-front slacks. Flat-fronts are made by a large and complex machine called the Batch-o-Tron 5000. They emphasize the junk without looking like you're trying to emphasize the junk.
5) Tailored dress shirts. Yes, a shirt that fits you right the first time and doesn't "blouse" out to create an air gut will make you hotter.
6) A loosened tie with unbuttoned top collar. Look like you just spent a hard day down the spreadsheet mines. I'm not kidding. Prep-gone-to-seed is just wicked hot.
7) Get a frickin' haircut (or grow your hair out and be done with it already). Do not look like you simply need a haircut. Do or not do, there is no try to look hot with an expensive 'bed-head' haircut.
8) Boot-cut jeans. Seriously, they set up some sort of visual resonance that makes anyone look thinner.
9) Stand up straight. It sounds dumb, but it really does suggest confidence, it lines things up to look better, and it suggests you feel at home in your body. It's hot.
10) Accept that if you look hot everyone will think you're a total douche, then continue looking hot. Male hotness is about showing off the right parts of the male body and showing off a willingness to show off. That means attitude, which others will interpret almost universally as either being a total douche, a queen, or a queen who's a total douche. You know the hottest moment in that ice-skating video apostropher posted? When the guy hangs his hat on his crotch at the end. Total macho douche move. It also gave me shivers of the good sort.
Well, shit. Sorry about the double-post.
I agree with all of RMcMP's advice except for the haircut thing. I think slightly shaggy hair is often sexy.
Hmm. I appear to have the tastes of a gay man. This probably explains why, back when I was living in Chelsea, Buck used to get all the appreciative looks on the street.
Particularly 4, 5, 6, and 9. Mmm, 6.
I appear to have the tastes of a gay man
Me too. How do I get it out of my mouth? It's been, like, three days.
122, 123, 125, and 126: yep. Although the haircut thing is tricky. Longish hair is fine; shaggy "I haven't had a cut in several months," not--regardless of actual length.
So, Matthew Barney and Bjork? What do you think?
Are you proposing another unlikely threesome, Matt?
I would hit it, if I weren't a feminist.
re: 119
Well, AG is hott. And I've met FL, and know that he is very hott. However, since I am 0 for 10 on the list in 122, I doubt that a threesome would be happening with us any time soon, even if I did not have preference issues with it.
Assumuing she's wearing the dead swan suit, isn't that necro-bestiality as well as a threesome? (Let alone all the molten Vaseline.)
A quick addendum to my own comment(s): collar bones. Collar bones are very hot. I don't know why, but they are. Well, OK, I do know why, but it sounds crazy: feminine physical beautiy is about curves, male physical beauty is about lines (and some curves, but not as many). Collar bones are big-ass lines that help highlight other lines. So, to review:
--biceps/upper arms
--butt
--crotch
--collar bones
OK, I'm done now. Really.
How do you wear clothes that accentuate your collarbones?
134: No you're not. Add cheekbones, jawline, neckline, and that lovely, lovely line along the male hip.
A shirt that's cut right, and left open at the collar; a v-neck; a sweater that's a little over-sized at the neck. You don't have to show off the whole thing, just a little.
My boyfriend has really hot collar bones, and this green sweater/shirt/thing with a couple of buttons at the neck (think Polo shirt but without the actual collar, but not - it's hard to describe). When he leaves the buttons undone, his collar bones show. Tasty.
Or an older t-shirt, where the neck's stretched a bit. Tasty, and yet it looks totally unplanned. Mmm.
The problem I've always had with those is that they tend to ride up so they expose none of the chest and some of the back, which is most definitely not what I'm going for.
Just back from a couple days mostly off. I've been reading the comments above, especially the ones about showing the male form. I'm struck by the presumption guys are supposed to be either clueless/obtuse about this or gay. I remember my brother and I used to discuss the subject when we were young, reached many of the same conclusions as the 123 and following line of comments, and yet "gayness" was never a thought for either of us. Do you this galumpfness is new? class-based? It seems there have always been men who understood there own sexuality rather well.
Hope that was clear despite numerous mistakes. Apparently literacy decays after about 36 hours.
I was actually thinking while I was reading 122 that it closely paralleled a lot of my own thinking about male appearance, so I guess I share your mystification about the gay vs. clueless dichotomy; I would think that a lot of straight guys have come up with systems of how to make themselves more attractive.
136 -- and don't forget that hottest of male attributes, the beer gut.
140 - I don't think it's that new, and definitely not class-based. I think it's the result of our society having attained awareness of same-sex attraction and sexual activity. When Will & Grace is on the air, for good or ill, such matters as one man discussing with another how to appear most attractive cannot safely be relegated purely to the academic or comedic realms, so guys shy away from it. You say you discussed it with your brother, but did you discuss it with anyone else?
I'm sure some of it is cluelessness - heck, we are just as clueless as straight guys (take a wild guess how many of those rules I follow, myself; it ain't many, and my shape is not exactly dominated by lines as opposed to curves), quite often - but I also think some of it is simply not wanting to seem like they've spent a lot of time studying what makes guys "sexy." I have a straight friend who insists that he has no mechanism for judging whether a guy is handsome or not, to which I say, "Utter BS." I am perfectly capable of tellling whether a woman is attractive, and no less gay for it. In a society where masculinity has become more of a spectrum than a standard, however, and the room is there to conceptualize something less than iron-clad heterosexuality, I think some guys are honestly scared of seeing that capability in themselves or being perceived as having that capability.
I think that's true, but be honest: what constitutes an attractive woman is a major preoccupation of pop culture. The idea of attractive men is, of course, also there, but a lot less of a big deal.
That said, I think that straight guys are lying when they say they have no idea what makes a guy attractive. But I also suspect that some of that b.s. is insecurity.
123/RMP--I don't know about the jeans advice, but the tailored shirt/tie advice is right on. If women look hot at clubs, men look hot at weddings and balls--first all smartly turned out, and then later loosened up to dance. The time sequence itself is hot.
It is all about the lines--subtle indications thereof---shoulders, collar bone, sternum, wrists at end of a long cuffed shirt. (there's a reason for cufflinks besides function.) I think when a guy has taken the time to be neat and aesthetic in a subdued but detailed, non-overtly sexy way, it's hot b/c it signals a certain non-greasy, almost respectful bodily self-awareness. Attention to detail, even if the detail itself doesn't *appear* sexy, signals that this guy can be careful, meticulous and observant about the human body, and that he is in the frame of mind to do so.
Of course dresswear isn't always good, though nice shirts really don't get enough play. Manly sweaters are warm and inviting. Barely tight t-shirts on the right body. Bikers calves go well with long shorts.
AG = very hot. The smile makes it happen, but I wonder if Tia is overestimating cutness b/c hairlessness (natural? hot!) and the wonderfully even skin tone overemphasizes it.
Re:BitchPhd''s points----I think the innate jerkiness of a lot of girls attached to hot genius sweeties is much more frequently non-obvious b/c women are---by necessity---more practiced at hiding malice.
Re: the 20s----I have gotten plenty of enthusiastic and immediate compliments in public from super sketchy guys, most of whom are much older and frequently seem to be homeless or deranged. It used to amuse me, but after some scary incidents and a greater understanding of how much it goes against most gentlemen's inhibitions to tell a total stranger she's hot in person, it pretty much freaks me out and rather irrationally makes me feel bad. On the other hand, compliments from guys I actually socialize w/ are rare and prized---not just out of a perverse appreciation for rarity, but also from recognizing the effort/risk to break form and articulate. At some level I feel like after some interaction I know we must find each others' personalities good enough---or why continue interacting?---but since looks aren't truly important, appreciating them always makes for a pleasant surprise--like "oh, you like that too, how nice."
Men claiming that they can't tell when other men are hot is, 99% of the time, insecure homophobic B.S. I like the ladies, but I can tell when a man is looking bad, so it follows that I should be able to tell when a man is looking good. And I can.
Right now, for instance, I'm not. I should really go shower.
Yeah, I know when other men are hot. But then I hang out with a lot of gay men (like McManlyPants!), so that might introduce bias to the results.
My reaction to these photos: it looks like 90% of them were taken at parties where everyone was drunk. Not seeing proof of douchebaggery (in most cases), just jealousy of guys who have hot girlfriends, really.
122-123 nails it. Look, women aren't dating jerks qua jerks, but qua bothered to take care of his appearance and is exciting to be around.
I also think that men don't talk about what other men are good-looking not out of homophobia, but because there's a sense in which it's not supposed to matter. (Hot girl/chubby guy on TV thingy, again.)
140 and further: Yeah, the 'men are generally insanely insensitive and unaware of anything emotional or esthetic' routine is nothing innate -- it's a weird little feature of late 20C American (European too? I don't know, but I have the impression somewhat less so.) culture. Guys don't pay attention to esthetics, even when it would be useful, because here and now it's viewed as vaguely unmanly, and they claim to pay even less attention to esthetics than they do.
Hot girl/chubby guy TV thingy
Hey, chubby guys need love too!
That said, there something to 149 and 150.
My reaction to these photos: it looks like 90% of them were taken at parties where everyone was drunk. Not seeing proof of douchebaggery (in most cases), just jealousy of guys who have hot girlfriends, really.
Not to mention this couple, whose picture I've tried to find the douchebagginess within and failed. They seem rather sweet, actually. Of course the guy looks sillly; he's pale where not sunburned, with a torse of not exactly AG definition, and wearing toy glasses. But he's okay being photographed like that, and the (not exactly hot but certainly cute) woman seems happy to be with him.
I don't know, making fun of Jersey kids, which seems to be the actual underlying theme of the site, doesn't really do it for me.
I agree about the picture JL linked; that guy doesn't seem like a douchebag at all. I don't know if it's Jersey kids or just Italian guys that the site is going for, but whatever it is, it's not quite what it advertises.
Really? That guy looks a lot better with his shirt off than I do, but I object to every single thing he is wearing except the watch. Maybe he gets off on "He's just dressed silly for the beach and she does look happy," but if we're going to snark on pictures people post on the internet I'm happy to snark on him.
(Pot-kettle the whole comment; photographs can bring out some dumb expressions. There's a reason why I only deliberately link to pictures of my cat.)
"gets off" as in "beats the rap." Shame on you!
See, I don't really associate anything he's wearing with being a douchebag (unlike, say, this guy). In fact, I couldn't really say anything about him from how he looks in that picture, and after looking at that site a bit more I've found that that's the case for a lot of the guys.
I was thinking of mentioning that. If that guy's a douchebag, I am totally a douchebag. Which maybe I am. But if finding every wacky plastic or seashell accessory you can and putting it all on for a photo and grinning like an idiot is wrong, then, well, I think you all can finish this sentence.
Who's getting off on what now? My point is, at most he looks like a dork. But being a dork, especially when on vacation at the beach, having fun with someone else, and not being ashamed of it, isn't really so objectionable; and no douchebaggery is involved. But by all means, snark away.
Hey, let's all make fun of me for being at work at 3:53 on April 15th because I am just now starting...
my taxes.
OK, OK, I am reinscribing conformist norms and should stop. I was going to make fun of the fact that the site had Google ads for douches, but now it's Katrina relief.
Hey I'm getting money back! I thought I was going to owe it. That means I don't actually have to finish this today, right?
my taxes.
I've got some time set aside on Monday for those.
This hit home.
163, I'm pretty sure you still have to. (IANAL, etc.)
I don't think I do. Once I didn't file until a year later and I still got my refund.
Oh, and I see the deadline's April 17 this year? I'm so going home.
I don't think they will necessarily beat down your door or anything, but I do think you may be legally obligated to file by Apr. 15. If you file for an extension that should be OK. I so have no standing to give you any advice on this.
Definitely, you should be either filling out a form or enjoying the sunshine, not arguing with me at the Mineshaft.
Tia is apparently correct, as long as she files electronically and submits Form 4868 (scroll down). Otherwise it's not clear.
An interesting and not universally known fact is that if you moved for job reasons you can deduct moving expenses, even if you don't itemize. You have to do the full 1040.
Thanks for the advice. I'll do this on Monday, I think.
What if you've already been out in the sunshine?
and that lovely, lovely line along the male hip.
yep!
on the website concept: i had high hopes for this because i do feel like i know a lot of women who are coupled with men who are much, much less interesting or lovely or with-it than they are. i experience it as a happy surprise when i really like the new s.o. of a female friend. this could be due partly - but only partly - to the fact that a)i know lots of over-educated women b)i am protective of them. but whatever, even if this guy in particular is latching onto jersey kids or drunk people or whatever, i do think he's found a real phenomenon.
You can go back out, still. For instance, the cat was out in the sunshine. Then she came back in and I shut the door, so I can go to the library. But she still wants to go out again. I will have to leave the house to avoid overwhelming waves of guilt.
We've been over this!
(And now, on the cranky old windows machines in the library, I am getting the infamous error message at the bottom:
Odd number of elements in hash assignment at lib/MT/App/Comments.pm line 68.
Use of uninitialized value in list assignment at lib/MT/App/Comments.pm line 68.
I always managed to talk my landlords into it. And why not unspervised? It's not like there are busy streets in Lubbock, are there?
The dude at the beach is not a douchebag, but he is definitely a dork. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
On taxes:
Tonight we discussed both under what circumstances your employer paying for your meals became income to you (I knew the answer five months ago, and could look it up in ten minutes) and whether it's possible to donate money to the government via the IRS (that is, intentionally overpay your taxes in such a manner that your overpayment won't be refunded).
On the topic of whether the site is noteworthy, I don't think the guy is trying to say anything serious and intrinsic about those people. It's a snarky page on the webbertrons. Enjoy it for what it is. Most of the humor, I think, is found in the guy's writing anyway. He also earns points for not taking himself at all seriously. He talked at length about how AG (who is just insanely hot) could kick his ass. He's not trying to divide the world into the hot and the untouchable, he's just trying to put something out there to get a laugh. I mean, look at the picture he chose of himself. You can't seriously think this guy believes himself objectively anti-dork, can you? C'mon. He posted a picture of Bush and one of the drunksImeantwins. Clearly the standard of being "one dork and one hot woman who is into said dork" and the idea that it holds some inscrutable mystery for the ages is a suggestion, not a hard-and-fast-rule, only to be enforced as strenuously as needed to set up a gag and no more.
whether it's possible to donate money to the government via the IRS
I think there used to be a line on the 1040 that let you do just that, but it's not there this year.
