Hrm. My husband had a not entirely dissimilar life story before I met him (serious college relationship that ended roughly, a long long time after that with dates here and there, non-relationship sex, female friends that he would have liked to date but who weren't into him romantically) and it ended when two of those female friends, my sister and a friend of hers, fixed him up with me.
Not that that's advice, but it's not just you. Therapy can't hurt, but you can also just keep looking. How are you fixed for female friends, particularly of the category that you'd be into dating if things were different somehow (they weren't married or otherwise coupled up or whatever)? If you've got them, do they know you're looking for a relationship, and are they actively scouting on your behalf?
"The lost Kafka episodes of Three's Company" is a stroke of genius.
Therapy? Just for being 34 and not married and not having more than a six month relationship?
Well, maybe. But most therapists make me want to smack them around because they're simpering and condescending. Unless you're really a freak or a creep, therapy probably isn't going to help. And if you're a freak or a creep, I'm not so sure the therapist will tell you that, which is probably what you'd need to hear.
My advice, assuming you've got the basics of being in shape, personal hygiene, clothing down okay:
1) Gym, yoga, readings, museums, etc., are great, but not very social. I don't know if I'd go out with someone who asked me out at a yoga class, if only because I probably wouldn't have had a chance to talk to him much. You need something more social, where you're going to have a chance to talk to the women: martial arts has worked for one of my friends, because people tend to go out afterwards for a beer. Alumni club football gamewatches has worked for lots of my friends, and there's always young-30ish types around there. Ballroom dancing lessons (don't laugh, Mineshaft guys). Theater, choirs, volunteering, science fiction conventions, anything. You get the idea. Something social that *you* enjoy anyway. Not solitary things like yoga.
If there's a choice to go home, or to go out with a group, you go out.
2) Ask a good friend if you come off as a creep. Seriously. My uncle married when he was 36, and he used to frighten women. Really. He is tall, was in very good shape, and sort of looms. It's hard to fix a creepy vibe, but not impossible.
3) You are *not* looking for a wife. Or a *relationship*. Think of the women who are explicitly husband hunting. They date like they've got a wire shopping cart and they're just finding a good bargain. They're annoying as hell, and you don't want to be like them. You just want to date someone. And you're not the only non-married 34 year old guy running around. It's not a liability.
Therapy? Just for being 34 and not married and not having more than a six month relationship?
I think Tia might be on to something here. It does seem odd to hit mid 30's and have your longest relationship be 6 months.
Maybe he's gay.
I have to say that I think that 'gay but hasn't figured it out yet' is a a category that may have existed more in the past, but doesn't so much these days for anyone out of their teen years.
No one has to feel like therapy is for them, but this
Unless you're really a freak or a creep, therapy probably isn't going to help.
is really unfortunate choice of words. Many, many people who are not self-or other-identified as creeps or freaks feel helped by therapy, and I'm sure you were talking about your own judgment of how much you see people changed, Cala, but putting it that way winds up stigmatizing people--I'm sure inadvertantly--who are in or have been in therapy and feel it's valuable.
I don't know from therapy at all, pro or con, but I strongly endorse 4.3. It's not a good idea to get afraid that you'll die alone, and start going into every encounter thinking "Maybe this will be My! Life's! Partner!" Start by trying to enjoy yourself around women. Maybe this will lead to dates that will turn into a long-term relationship, but if they don't you'll at least have had some fun. (Don't, however, be a dick. I mean, look for a situation where you'll both have fun, not a seduction and betrayal situation.) So, don't think about the long term right away, is what I'm saying.
½way Done might also want to look into speed dating.
There's something missing in the letter: what "Halfway Done" wants. We know what his mom wants, what his friends want, what he thinks he should want... But is he lonely? Does he want more nookie?
It's unclear whether we should be giving him "here's how to meet ladiez" advice or "enjoy the life you have" advice, which I think is why Tia's suggestion of therapy isn't so much off the mark. If not therapy, then some other form of sitting down and thinking about what he wants, why he wants it, and whether he really wants it more than he wants other things.
#4
Uh, science fiction conventions? And you think he's going to find women at said convention?
I meant therapy-with-dating, Tia. I mean, a guy who is wondering why he doesn't meet women when he never goes out probably doesn't need to pay a therapist money to hear that he needs to go out more. A guy who is a few pounds overweight and doesn't shower probably doesn't need to pay a therapist money to figure that out. That's all I meant in any case. Most of the problems can be solved with self-reflection.
I don't think there's anything wrong with being 34 and single and treating it like a pathology that needs to be medicated as a first response.
5: Not really. One, he said longest 'adult' relationship. To me this is saying 'dated in college, had one serious girlfriend, broke up when we were 23.' So from there maybe he's in medical school (doctors who work 100 hours a week don't often have serious relationships), or busy in graduate school, or moving around a lot with jobs and so doesn't start many relationships. There's a lot of reasons that don't suggest a seriously disordered personality.
I don't smoke, don't do drugs
I'd start by fixing that problem first.
H-DiB should also probably read this thread on the ethics and technique of picking up women.
8 is dead on (I think that part of the explanation of my husband's long dry spell was that he was giving off the 'looking for true love' rather than 'Hi! Let's have some fun!" vibe.) Love happens or it doesn't. Fun, with the possibility of agreeing to continue to have fun, is much easier to achieve. And it's also easier to tell if you're having fun than if you're in love.
There's something missing in the letter: what "Halfway Done" wants. We know what his mom wants, what his friends want, what he thinks he should want... But is he lonely? Does he want more nookie?
This is also good. A core thing to remember (and I usually find myself telling this to female friends, but I should expect it's true for men too), is that while happily coupled up may be better than single, single is infinitely better than being unhappily coupled up.
Jackmormon's OTM. I don't get a clear sense of what the writer wants from this letter other than that he's vaguely dissatisfied and thinks that he should be somewhere he isn't. I suggest marrying his step-cousin and enrolling in Med School.
15 -- Other good strategies include Landmark Forum, Scientology, and Amway.
FWIW:
"Women ages 30-34 who were never married tripled during that time, from 6 percent to 22 percent. Men this age who never married grew from 9 percent to 30 percent.
By the age 35, about 74 percent of men and women have been married; by age 65, 95 percent have been."
(Fox News)
It's likely that "Halfway Done" is reading this thread.
You don't go into therapy just to treat pathology. You can do it to figure out what you want and what your motives are. I don't know what's going on with Halfway Done, but he didn't offer anything like "busy" or "moving around" as the explanation, though maybe that is what it is. He said that nothing seemed to work out into a relationship. He also said he also included college in the period that he hadn't had adult relationships. If nothing seems to work out, it could be bad luck, but it merits deeper self-examination.
#4. I figure if you're 34 and into science fiction, you're probably not going to change that, so why not meet a fellow geek instead of pretending to be interested in French literature to attract some 'ideal woman.' Most of my geek friends who have made peace with their inner geekdom are happily dating or married than the guys who live in fear that they'll discover that he reads comic books.
And for clarity about the issue we're discussing, HD is not just unmarried. HD has only had one six-month relationship.
19: Fair enough. The hyperbole of my reaction was mostly because I was expecting a lot of Tia-style romantic advice and was surprised by therapy as your only suggestion.
And I think it bothered me because were he a 34-year-old woman and the response was 'get help, something's wrong with you and your motives if you haven't found someone you can stand for more than six months', I think we'd be a lot quicker to blame other factors.
A friend of mine was 32 and hadn't dated in a while (with a noticeable physical disability), and so resigned himself to being single, embraced it, had fun going out with friends, then moved to Paris with his job in part of this no-picket-fence-because-I-can spirit, and of course, fell in love and is getting married.
It's likely that "Halfway Done" is reading this thread.
I assume he is. He should really pipe up if he's around -- it'll be annoying and intrusive, of course, but it's his only real shot of getting advice that doesn't wander totally off the mark.
I don't think we have enough data about Halfway Done to say anything more than keep talking, which is more or less what Tia suggests with therapy. But I'm reading "And this was OK, sort of" and hearing someone who's significantly more jaded than the rest of y'all seem to think. Are his relationships with his friends satisfying? His family? How pervasive is this "OK, sort of" attitude, etc.
And I think it bothered me because were he a 34-year-old woman and the response was 'get help, something's wrong with you and your motives if you haven't found someone you can stand for more than six months', I think we'd be a lot quicker to blame other factors.
I do think that standard gender roles (which I do not endorse! and I disapprove of! but I think still have significant explanatory power when applied to people's behavior!) make the situation asymmetrical; that a woman in H-DiB's situation would probably be in that situation for different reasons.
One possible explanation: really small penis.
But I'm reading "And this was OK, sort of" and hearing someone who's significantly more jaded than the rest of y'all seem to think.
Huh. I read that as 'I wasn't miserable, and figured that romance would come in its own time. I'm just starting to worry now that it hasn't.'
that a woman in H-DiB's situation would probably be in that situation for different reasons.
Umm...why?
26 -- the strategies I listed in 18 can be useful in this regard too.
Here's another element that shouldn't get neglected:
A whole lot of weird hook-ups and non-dates and
friends-without-benefits and benefits-without-friends and
what-will-my-friends-think and
whatever-happened-last-night-we-will-never-speak-of-again and that
sort of thing.
To me, this suggests he's hanging out with a crowd or in places that might not be conducive to relationships or romance. Might be because he doesn't, in fact, really want those things, might be because he's coming around to wanting those things but still has those haunts and habits; I don't know.
What I'm starting to read in HD's letter is a more generalized "is this the life I'm going to have?" Longer or more serious relationships might be just part of that.
Anyways, just wanted to amend my earlier post: HD is getting nookie, just not the kind he wants.
#20
I agree, but I didn't think women attended those things much. I've never actually been to a sci fi convention, but the mental picture I get is a male/female ratio of like 1000:1. Maybe I'm way off.
Therapy can't hurt
Actually, sometimes it can. It can of course be very beneficial for some, but for others it can be create the need for more therapy (for which they pay top bucks) and encourage dependency on the therapist. It also encourages endless ruminating about things when sometimes the proper course of action is to suck stuff up and move on.
So. I agree with Cala. I also agree with Cala that a lack of long-term relationships need not indicate a pathology. I'm the same age as this dude, and outside of my unsuccessful five-year marriage, I've only had one long-term relationship, in my teens.
The assumption that he's the problem is discomfiting. I have many friends who are in the same boat, and they're not weird, creepy or ugly. The facts are that New York is a tough place to meet people and an even tougher place to cultivate meaningful relationships, be they friendships or romances. And multiply this by ten if you're an introvert.
I have to schedule time for people, something I never really had to do before, because everyone's so busy, they live in another borough, etc. If you need to get to know someone really well before you decide you want to date them, that can take months' worth of meeting for a drink every two or three weeks.
My nickel's worth.
28: Again, it's the men-make-the-first-move thing. I can easily picture a reasonably attractive and personable woman getting to her mid-thirties without any significant relationship history without anything more complicated than being shy and conventional. For a woman, if you're conventional, you aren't chasing guys, you're waiting to get chased (I do not endorse this behavior. It's stupid. But it's something that, I think, still happens.) And putting yourself on display to attract people to chase you is somthing that requires a global personality change: being consistently outgoing and approachable, all the time you're interacting with possible romantic prospects. For an introvert, that can be really difficult.
A similarly conventional guy with the same sort of introverted personality still has to do something very difficult -- make romantic approaches -- but each approach is a momentary effort, as distinct from making yourself into the type of person that men would ask out.
Back in my dating days, if I didn't make the first move, I would pretty much never have dated anyone. I'm both intimidating and introverted; I simply don't get approached romantically. Someone with my personality and slightly more investment in the conventional gender roles would almost certainly end up in her forties with a close relationship with her cats.
Maybe it's time for one of those mail order Russian brides.
the mental picture I get is a male/female ratio of like 1000:1.
Based on the few SF conventions I've been to--10:1 or even 5:1 is probably more like it. And they aren't all fat guys in Star Trek costumes, either. Lots of members of some of the (SFW) less vanilla sexual subcultures--Queer/Fetish/Transhuman/etc. like to show up, too. Obviously, that won't appeal to everyone, but if it's your thing, then SF conventions aren't a bad place to look for it.
And one sixth month relationship, besides showing a lot of ruminating, doesn't mean much. If it's a six-month living together, followed by a year of loneliness, followed by flirting and dating and three-four month flings, well, that sounds like a lot of people's 20s to me. It just didn't stop for this guy.
Plus, the guy is in graduate school somewhere in there, and grad school is not a good place to start a relationship. Most people at my school either come in with a relationship, or drop into a vacuum for the seven or eight years.
It's not that they're unattractive, but there's a lot more expectations mis-match. You're either dating another grad student, which means you get the sum of your neuroses, plus the 'I'm here two years for a master's then moving to the other side of the continent' stuff.
Or you're trying, as a 27 year old educated guy, to pick up a similarly educated, intelligent woman who isn't in the academy, who at age 26 may be thinking more long term. Oh, and you're making $15,000 a year. Guys are taking her to restaurants and planning and having money, and you're eating ramen and have milk-crate endtables.
I wish he were around to clarify, but my impression from his letter was not that he was having three or four month flings, or that, cf. 32, he just hasn't had a long term relationship, but that he hasn't had a satisfying romantic connection, however brief, at all (except the 6 mo. one).
His exact words:
A whole lot of weird hook-ups and non-dates and
friends-without-benefits and benefits-without-friends and
what-will-my-friends-think and
whatever-happened-last-night-we-will-never-speak-of-again and that
sort of thing. And a whole lot of nothing too. No relationships, no
romance. Just these awkward manuevers and whatevers.
In general, I think the answer to this sort of problem is always, "Lower your standards." Most people have a pretty clear picture of the sort of person they should be mated with; most people are wrong.
35: I agree with the ratio -- I've never been one, but my geek friends keep meeting other geeks to date, and that ratio sounds about right. And I'm not suggesting looking for women at SF conventions. I'm not suggesting *looking*. Go out and have fun.
HD's activities all sound like the sorts of things that one does to try to meet women. Gym, yoga, attending (poetry?) readings, going to museums. And if he's doing it for fun, great. To meet women? It's a) going to show and b) not going to meet the kind of women you'll have more than a 3-4 month relationship with. 'Cause she's not at the museum trying to meet men, but probably interested in that sort of stuff. She's definitely not at the gym to meet men.
friends-without-benefits and benefits-without-friends is just opaque to me. I don't know what he means.
what-will-my-friends-think and
whatever-happened-last-night-we-will-never-speak-of-again
I first read as his internal barriers, but now read as what he gets from women instead of interest in developing a relationship with him. I think he wants one all right, and may be telegraphing it too strongly.
he hasn't had a satisfying romantic connection, however brief, at all
Perhaps there's an unackowledged yearning for beefcake. Just saying.
I read "friends-without-benefits" as someone he might like to sleep with, but can't. I read "benefits-without-friends" as people he's sleeping with in an empty, unconnected way. I see what you mean, IDP, about there being two ways to read all these phrases. I thought he meant from his perspective, but he might have meant from hers.
less vanilla sexual subcultures--Queer/Fetish/Transhuman/etc. like to show up, too. Obviously, that won't appeal to everyone
I think I'm going to stick with Serbian birth control.
Tia, I assume you get these cris de coeur by email and get around to writing them up when you get around to it. Does HD know his case is being argued today, or is he going to show up to 140 comments sometime next week?
33: This is what's so screwed up about the dating scene as I've experienced it here in NYC (the same conditions might prevail elsewhere in the US too, I don't know).
Every other place I've lived, you fall in with a social scene, get to know people, and over time maybe develop a crush on a friend, then hook up. What LB has described seems to involve approaching virtual strangers. Which is a momentary step for a guy, true, but a monumental step for some.
LB had a really insightful comment on another thread as to why women might be more afraid of rejection than men (viz., the cultural perception that men will fuck anything that moves, so if he won't fuck you, you must be really unappealing). Still, my male friends feel the sting of rejection pretty keenly and past rejections have demoralized some of them.
Anyway, this dude doesn't have trouble with meeting people as such, but perhaps with meeting people that he feels a connection with.
And finally: someone who'd describe his internet dates as "the lost Kafka episodes of Three's Company"? I know women out there who'd hit that.
Every other place I've lived, you fall in with a social scene, get to know people, and over time maybe develop a crush on a friend, then hook up. What LB has described seems to involve approaching virtual strangers. Which is a momentary step for a guy, true, but a monumental step for some.
That's normal here in NYC, too -- but anyplace, what do you do when your group of friends settles into couples and you're the one left single? Dating your friends only works if you have single friends you're attracted to, and as people get into their late twenties/early thirties, and relationships get longer, that isn't necessarily going to be the case. At which point you're out there either making new friends or dating acquaintances.
I always feel excessively earnest in commenting on these threads, partly because I am never sure that the question is seriously meant. However, the question and some of the comments caused me to reflect on the nature of getting and maintaining relationships.
I am fat, plain looking, introverted, lack charm or style and often am hard to get along with--that is to say, all the things one would think would put me in the same boat as H-DiB. However, since I was 15 (putting aside my tour in the first Gulf War), I probably have not gone more than 6 months without having someone I was dating regularly, married to, etc. Putting to one side the many character flaws which make women want to end relationships with me, I think the thing that makes them want to have relationships with me may be that I (for whatever deluded reason) think that I am worth liking and that I, in general, am willing to show a woman whom I like that I genuinely like her (just like, not lust or stalk, although I have done those too, I guess, but not to good effect).
Now, this is not as simple as telling H-DiB to go get some self-esteem. What I mean is that maybe he should work a bit on having some women friends (as opposed to girlfriends), relax about the whole finding true love thing, and start with finding someone he likes and being friends with her (or them; no reason to have just one friend). The rest seems to come, even for those of us who have little to recommend them.
Agreed with 46/49 (and gswift, I think you might have different expectations about single guys in their 30s because Utah is way different from other parts of the country in this way. IMlimitedE there was a big infrastructure devoted to getting LDS guys married off pretty quick, which doesn't exist elsewhere. Also, I can see someone repressing gay urges a lot longer in Utah than in Brooklyn).
50: Liking women is a huge, huge deal, attractiveness-wise. I was actually trying to get at this in a sneaky way back in comment 1 (when I assumed H-Dib was reading), by asking what his female friends were doing for him. If the answer was that he didn't have any, that would be a huge clue as to what's going on.
My dad's embarassing way of explaining dating: 'If you're hunting bear, you have to go out in the woods. You won't catch any bear sitting around in the house wondering why you never catch any bear. But if you go out in the woods making a lot of noise and calling for the bear, all the bear will run away.'
49: LB, do you find the relationships in general getting longer in one's late twenties, or just the successful ones? My friends who are dating now tend to go through men faster than they did when they were 22. When they were 22, it would be about a year and half turnover if it wasn't working. Now it's about five months, presumably because a) they know better what they want and b) they feel like they have less time to waste.
In my mid-30s, everyone I know is either married (or might-as-well-be) or not really actively dating or looking for a partner. I can't think of anyone in my circle who's riffling through short-term relationships. So, maybe? But I don't know.
49: "At which point you're out there either making new friends or dating acquaintances."
Very true. It's the "making new friends" that's very difficult in a place like NYC. I work in an office with people of different nationalities; a French woman asked me the other week why the Americans always work through their lunch hours instead of going out for social lunches with their colleagues. She also asked why the American staff seemed so unfriendly sometimes. I thought it was an interesting question, since the French are famed for supposedly being snotty.
53, I'm 28 and most of my friends are a few years older, and yes, I would say that people are getting more quick to say "no, you're not it" and move on.
someone who'd describe his internet dates as "the lost Kafka episodes of Three's Company"?
I just wanted to second that I thought that turn of phrase pwned.
I think you might have different expectations about single guys in their 30s because Utah is way different from other parts of the country in this way.
I grew up in Los Angeles, and yeah, living in Utah it's way different. I don't actually think he's gay, I'm just entertaining myself with the speculation, and seeing if anyone rises to the bait. Out in Utah guys get really riled when you insinuate they're gay. So I have a tendency to throw it out there because out here the response often involves a highly amusing amount of defensiveness.
I'm in my mid-30's and can think offhand of two (male) friends who are riffing through short-term relationships. (One of them is coincidentally a jack Mormon.) Probably more if I sat down to think about it.
Yup. Whatever H-Dib's other flaws may be, he's clever.
56: Pretty much my experience then. With my friends it seems the story of Love goes like this: nasty breakup after three years with the one, lots of lousy dates, one eight month relationship, lots of lousy dates, meet someone, date for three months, *foom*, engaged.
Hey come to think of it, maybe I should fix my jack Mormon friend up with Jackmormon.
She's dating the skinny Persian. (Well, not the skinny Persian, but you know what I mean.)
JM has a man. Though maybe your candidate wouldn't make her make red meat 'n' fruit dishes.
I wanna defend therapy. I had therapy for five years, primarily focused on the "writing the goddamn dissertation" problem, but along the way I learned a lot about my communication patterns, stuff that has made a difference in my relationship skills. Honestly, I personally think that pretty much *everyone* in their 30s would benefit from talk therapy, just because there's a difference between relationship patterns we learn growing up and dealing with a broader range of people who had different experiences, and part of adulthood is learning how to communicate with *those* people without bringing to the table a lot of unrecognized assumptions about, say, "silence means you're ignoring me," or "asking questions about my feelings means you're prying," or whatever.
Re. irritating therapists: you just have to keep looking until you find someone who doesn't belong to the peering, "but you do you feeeeeel about that" school.
All that said. No, being a 34-year old guy without a partner, or even a long-term relationship in the past, isn't all that weird. (In fact, I'd say the "it's weird" idea is perhaps part of what therapy would help one get over.) Academia, I think, makes it hard to meet people: your peer group is really fairly narrow, and since you move around, it can be hard to know non-academics really well. So on that front, the hobbies thing (including sci-fi conventions, yes; after all, you don't have to meet hundreds of women, you just need to meet one interesting one) is a good one.
My primary advice would be, if it's relevant, that Halfway should expand his idea of who's datable. If he's been looking for people who are around his age, look more seriously at women who are both older and younger; if he's been looking for people who are formally educated, don't overlook blue-collar workers; don't assume that long-distance relationships can't become serious enough that either partner will consider moving.
Personal examples: my husband is a military guy and I'm not a big fan of the military (or wasn't), and we had a long-distance relationship the entire time we dated and for part of the marriage, but we made the decisions we needed to make to change that eventually. My boyfriend is a dropout and an autodidact and moves in a completely different social circle (restaurants and the Minneapolis "scene") than I do, plus long-distance; time will tell whether the long-distance thing ever gets solved, but the social scene difference is, if anything, a benefit as it's really quite interesting to meet people from a different world than my own.
And yeah: don't come off like you're looking for The One. But at the same time, if what you want is a relationship rather than a series of one-night stands, then (if necessary) change your behavior accordingly: ask people out on dates, focus on talking as well as on "romance," find out where the single women hang out and what they do, and figure out how to be part of that.
63/64 -- I was not serious. I'm pretty sure I have never in my life "set up" anyone with any other person. I wouldn't know how to begin to go about it!
50 and 52 are exactly right. In fact, I think *all* dating advice can be summed up as, if you *like* women/men, then you'll be fine. The caveat being, if you say/think you like women/men, but they don't seem to agree, then you need therapy.
if it's relevant, that Halfway should expand his idea of who's datable.
I said the same in #39. I think it's a disfavored solution.
TMK, quitcher hitting on me! Aren't you married with children?
In other Persian food news: saffron, raisin, orange-rind, lentils and rice dishes can be quite tasty.
People in their 50s can benefit from talk therapy in just the same way. Let's have a look at those habits, shall we? One of the most constructive things is the way you start taking stock and thinking about what your issues are as your appointment approaches.
Saffron is awesome. I put some saffron in a risotte recently and the whole thing became coloréd! Just like in the movies.
someone who'd describe his internet dates as "the lost Kafka episodes of Three's Company"?
I just wanted to second that I thought that turn of phrase pwned.
Turn of phrase? Damn, no wonder I couldn't find that DVD on Amazon.
if it's relevant, that Halfway should expand his idea of who's datable.
I said the same in #39.
And that's part of what I was thinking in 8; part of not looking for The One is it frees you to date women who you might think are antecedently disqualified from being The One. And then you might surprise yourself.
Never had any luck with therapy, have I, not as a teenager nor in my twenties nor in my thirties. I have not met the therapist who can draw me out and get me to focus on self-examination -- weird because I do a lot of introspection on my own, almost to the exclusion of more productive activity.
A similarly conventional guy with the same sort of introverted personality still has to do something very difficult -- make romantic approaches -- but each approach is a momentary effort, as distinct from making yourself into the type of person that men would ask out.
It's probably worth pointing out that this is mostly wrong, but probably not worth trying to explain why.
Dang, second paragraph of 73 should be italicized, as it's a quote from SCMT.
75: Oh, probably. I knew it was largely wrong as I was saying it; I just couldn't get closer to something that was right. But there is something to my core point, that the gender role thing plays out differently for men and women in this regard.
Look, therapy's fine. I just thought we jumped there too fast. It's like a friend comes to me saying 'Man, I've never been able to lose those last five pounds' and I look at her with alarm and referred her to nutritionists and for bloodwork for thyroid cancer because it was obviously the sign of a seriously malfunctioning metabolism before I said "You and me and everyone else. Wanna go jogging tomorrow?'
Ben, maybe you know this already, but I recently learned that the thing to do with saffron is to chuck the threads in a bit of hot water and leave them there for at least twenty minutes.
Now that I've found a cheapish source of saffron, I'm adding it to practically everything. Saffron and creme fraiche sauce for pasta, saffron fish en papillote... I'm so far restraining myself from adding it to scrambled eggs, but it won't be long now.
the gender role thing plays out differently for men and women in this regard. The only difference I can see is baby-production. Men may worry less at the same age because their clock ticks slightly slower.
I may be misapprehending the meaning of the letter, but I wanna know if people really think it's totally unsurprising that someone who
1) can semi-regularly attract women for sex, and on other occasions seems to be able to attract women for friendship
2) is not, at least according to his telling, primarily hampered by issues like mobility or lack of time
never has (and this is how I read it) even a two-month "well, that didn't work out" relationship, but solely bad dates, one-night-stands, and sex with people he doesn't connect to personally. I think that's surprising. Unless I totally mistake his meaning, it's not that he never meets people. He meets people and then never mutually connects with any of them, even though he has sex with some of them.
I'm around -- thanks for the heads-up, Tia. Let's see. Of course gswift is right in every particular. BEEEFCAAKE! [cookie monster noises]
I guess I wasn't clear what I meant by "what-will-my-friends-think and
whatever-happened-last-night-we-will-never-speak-of-again," but Cala's interpretation is correct. As surmised, I've had (and continue to have) a complicated career path. LizardBreath, 1: my female friends do scout for me (they are remarkably cool) and 27: that's what I meant. 18: hi there David Weman! Jackmormon, less lonely, more nookie, sure -- who wouldn't? -- but really, less uncertainty. 30 sounds about right.
Not sure what to make of the therapy advice. The self-sabotaging hypothesis is one I've thought about, but (hard to say) I don't think it applies? or if it does, it's not the primary reason. Lousy target selection is probably more likely. Also, I have the crazy magnet.
I'm not sure about the semi-regularly. Keep in mind "a whole lot of nothing too."
But the "we jumped there too fast" thing is based on the idea that therapy is only for People with Problems, when I think the point those of us who've had therapy are making is, it isn't; it's just a cool thing to do, especially if you wanna think about relationships or personal goals or whatever.
And yes, 39 and 8 are right.
Maybe, but I think it's more than that. After all, look at H-DiB; worried at right about the age where a woman's clock would be really starting to tick.
Also, I have the crazy magnet.
Now I really think the therapy is a good idea. There's no ccrazy magnet. There's reasons why people gravitate towards, or attract certain types, and often these reasons are difficult to discern with self examination.
Okay, that clarifies things. I guess I have a broader definition of "romance."
81: I think that's a misread. The whole 'friends without benefits' part seemed to be a play on the 'friends with benefits' sorts of claims, not the cry of a soul who can't connect emotionally. I didn't read it very seriously (benefits without friends), just as an attempt at clever word play.
So he has good friends, good female friends (the wedding example) the occasional short-term fling that doesn't go anywhere (this is where I disagree. Longest relationship = six months doesn't mean there are no shorter ones), the occasional one-night stand with a friend or acquaintance of a friend, and a string of wretched internet date attempts.
Seriously, this describes most of my unmarried male friends from 23-29. Maybe NYC is different, but my guy friends have a habit of complaining to their female friends that there are no women. They're not closed off, emotionally detached guys. They've just not found anyone yet.
Halfway's a bit older, but most of my friends have also noticed that once they hit thirty, it's harder not to be 'that creepy old guy', so the dating slows down.
But the "we jumped there too fast" thing is based on the idea that therapy is only for People with Problems
Right on. Even people with lowercase-p problems can benefit from therapy.
81: I don't think it's all that weird; maybe the guy is just picky, which is fine.
However!!! 82!!! "The crazy magnet" = red flag. I submit that the crazy magnet often happens to guys who are either easygoing or seem so, who *maybe* have rescue issues (although the lack of actually getting into relationships with these women means, maybe not), and possibly someone who is a little passive and/or willing to just take what comes along, relationship-wise. I, personally, often like crazy-magnet guys because ime they're usually pretty tolerant and genuinely like women, but if you want A Relationship, you need to maybe learn how to activate the warning system a little earlier and stop letting the women do all the choosing. Learn to go after the women who seem interesting and not crazy, because, alas, they're often the ones who have best internalized the "girls don't make the first move" meme.
In San Francisco, I discovered that both almond saffron pistachio ice cream and black cherry saffron pistachio ice cream are fabulous.
Lousy target selection is probably more likely. Also, I have the crazy magnet.
This is what we're talking about, then, and I'm on the therapy bandwagon.
Based on only those two sentences, I'm going to attribute all of the relationship pathologies of an old college friend of mine to you. She (for various reasons that she is working through in therapy) is infalliably attracted to men who no one should be dating. And I say that as someone who's met them. Not necessarily bad people, but people you'd have to be a lunatic to want to date. And she finds them at the stage of initial attraction -- it's not that of all those who catch her eye, she only dates the assholes; it's that everyone who catches her eye is an asshole.
If this is sounding even remotely familiar, I'd follow Weiner's advice in 8, and start trying to date more without worry about where it's going. And I'd expand it to dating women who really don't strike you as your type -- if you're like my friend, you are screening out everyone sane at the 'not my type' stage. And try therapy, to see if you can get through whatever's making you select loons.
Of course, of it doesn't sound familiar, ignore me. I'm some random person on the internet who's never met you.
Heh. I think we have consensus that 'crazy magnet' was the key phrase in that post.
90: Sure, fine. Everyone Can Benefit From A Good Therapist. I've been through therapy, too. It pretty much sucked.
It caused more problems than it solved, what with dealing with simpering therapists whose response to everything was 'Why don't we try some medication' while trying to find a good one and dealing with people that didn't call back, and it's not something I'd recommend just to sort out some goals unless the person felt like they needed it.
I do a lot of introspection on my own
I frequently do the same sort of thing, though I don't know how useful it is. Brings to mind that quotation of Freud:
In self-analysis the danger of incompleteness is particularly great. One is too soon satisfied with a part explanation, behind which resistance may easily be keeping back something that is more important perhaps.
I'm almost ready to revise the "don't worry about where it's going" advice, b/c ime the crazy-magnet problem happens to guys who *don't* worry about that and who are perfectly willing to just go along with whatever's happening. Speaking as someone who comes across as a Good and Serious Girl and who likes to flirt but is actually really good at maintainuing the boundary between flirting and Everything Else, it's the skeeve reaction that probably needs strenghtening here, and possibly H. needs to learn how to cultivate an interest in the girls who seem "nice, but not exciting" at first glance.
FWIW, therapy has been hugely helpful for me. And the question "why don't we try some medication?" if it didn't save my life, likely saved my marriage.
Jackmormon, less lonely, more nookie, sure -- who wouldn't? -- but really, less uncertainty.
This really speaks to me. A friend once told me women get married when they find the right person, men get married when it's the right time. I had a couple relationships in my early twenties where, if I'd met them 5 years later, I might have married them. I'm thrilled I married my wife, but if I hadn't felt like it was time for me to think aboiut getting married, it likely wouldn't have happened. Now, to me it sounds like Halfway has decided that he's ready, but isn't able to make the easy transition to looking at the person he's currently with and deciding that she's the one. In which case, I'd say follow the advice above to go where the women are. And stay away from SF conventions, as while they do have women, the crazy percentage is high.
the crazy-magnet problem happens to guys who *don't* worry about that and who are perfectly willing to just go along with whatever's happening
This is true true true. I have claimed the crazy magnet previously, but in retrospect, it was really just a deep reluctance to say no to anybody. Crazy people latch on to whomever will allow it.
91 (first line): It's all moot now, since it's not Halfway Done's situation, but I think that would be surprising, and it is not fine to be that picky if you want some regular lovin'--"picky" is an excuse not to get it.
I've heard that, too. I'm not sure if it's right, or sexist, or what, but it seems to bear out. Women look for the right guy, and guys tend to go 'hmm. graduated from college, check. finished law school or other plans, check. have a year's working experience and some money, check. What am I missing? Oh, right. I needs me a wife.'
men get married when it's the right time
That strikes me as accurate. I've had a couple of friends get married somewhat recently, and in case the groom essentially told me that he was marrying the bride because she was "good enough." At the time, it struck me as sad. But in each case, the couple is really happy. In fact, that's really the basis for my suggesting that HD date more broadly.
the question "why don't we try some medication?" if it didn't save my life, likely saved my marriage.
Amen to that.
I think women get married when it's the right time, too, at least sometimes. If I felt eager to get married, I might have considered marrying Graham. Clementine ended a relationship with a reasonable prospect in part because she just didn't feel like settling down.
Maybe you guys had better therapists. "Why don't we try some medication?" was proposed in lieu of talk therapy, kind of 'If we drug you up, sweetie, we won't have to meet every week.' If was like I had to prove I was serious by taking drugs so the psychiatrist would treat me.
Also, I have the crazy magnet.
Welcome, fellow crazy magneteer! Remember: when you look into the Crazy, the Crazy also looks back into you.
You know, it's funny, b/c my mom always told me that women get married when they're ready, not when they find "the" right guy. But in fact, I got married much earlier than I expected to, because I'd found the right guy. And he said no to my first proposal, because it wasn't yet time (although I'd said no to *his* earlier proposal because it was *too* early for me, so go figure). I don't think I'd have married at all if I wasn't certain of the guy; I can't imagine getting married because someone is "good enough."
I wonder what this means. I suspect it has something to do with the studies that show that marriage benefits men more than it does women.
Another thing to remember, although it's probably not relevant to Cala, who just had bad therapists, is that sometimes if you're finding your therapist obnoxious really fruitful things can come of talking about it to the therapist. The best therapy session I ever had all stemmed from me finally working up to telling my therapist I hated it when he responded to me talking about seriously traumatic life events by saying "bummer."
106: Yeah, my current psychiatrist is one of those "take drugs and don't bother me" guys. I hate him, but I can't change. OTOH, at this point in my life, the meds really help. But previously, when I just wanted talk therapy, I had to go through 5 therapists before I found one I liked and part of picking her was that I'd finally learned to say up front, "I can't stand the how do you feeeeeel thing, and I don't want meds." And she respected that.
Although she would sometimes say, "I know you hate this question, but I have to point out that I asked how you feel about that, and your answer was to tell me what you think instead." But thank god she always asked the "feel" question in a fairly thoughtful, non-probing way that didn't come across as intrusive and scary.
I'm picking up the same signals that Chopper is in 99. And while "go where the women are" is good advice, it should be qualified some.
There are a LOT of well-educated, well-dressed, good-looking, totally neurotic hipster women living in Brooklyn.* They will be easy for a man to find in bars and clubs and readings and restaurants and easily accessible community events. They will be the easiest women to stumble across. They might be very fun and comparatively easy to pick up. The fun in this sort of encounter, apparently, is starting to pall.
So, where to meet the women whose lives have enough stability that they can imagine being in a relationship that is not insane?
I'm thinking volunteer activities, organized hobbies (like serious amateur theater or bridge or chess), goofy walking tours, cooking classes---stuff that busy people with fulfilling lives do on the side. Yoga, gym, and readings don't count because they aren't really interactive.
Obviously, Halfway has to enjoy the activity himself because if he undertakes it only for the ladeez, the ladeez (particularly the sane and stable ones we're talking about) will be skeeved out. And even if he doesn't find someone to date, maybe he'll broaden his circle of friends and expand the range of "fun" activies, which can be satisfying in itself.
__
*Ok, maybe I should narrow that to Williamsburg, the source of this stereotype.
109 is correct too. But you have to have some *initial* trust in order to get to that point, which maybe means the therapist has to be smart enough to see when she's making you uncomfortable and change her manner. Alas, many of them seem to be remarkably bad at that. Mine was good enough that, forewarned that I got skeeved by emotional probing, she would deflect my anxiety by either warning me the question was coming, or laughing with me a bit at how we were going to do "that cliche therapy thing now." Or both.
I wonder what this means.
Probably that everyone's mom has a different theory. I could see marrying someone because they were good enough, but it's not like I have a list of criteria and score them on a scale of one to ten with a passing average, either. I'm certain I would have been reasonably happy with any of my past boyfriends. I've had some nasty breakups, but all of them were decent human beings.
But my mom seems to subscribe to the 'is he the One?' sort of theory, and wasn't impressed when I told her he was probably One of a subset of a class of Good Guys.
94. This was great advice for my 30-year-old self. But I think I'm at stage 2: my crazy filter is well in place. Filtered out most of my dating life too. 98. YES! that's it exactly.
my mom always told me that women get married when they're ready
My own assumption is that both parties end up getting married when they're ready more than because they've met the right person. I think women may appear more worried about meeting the right person, but I think that's simply an artifact of more comprehensive screening. There seem to be more possible really-bad outcomes of marriage for women than for men. It make sense to screen hard. For men, it's more or less about cup size.
Oh, and for anyone who might want to start therapy , I know someone who is teh awesome with the high-quality referrals, and could hook you up. He can find someone who does sliding-scale, too. That goes for anyone who wants to find a therapist, especially in NY, but he knows people all over.
Oh, there's also the other asterisk about the crazy magnet.
117--Yup. Crazy women fuck like deranged weasels on crystal meth.
113: I'd say that, if we're talking about *successful* marriages, that is, marriages where the partners like one another, stay together, are commmitted to the marriage and to each other, and neither one of them has to compromise something essential in order to find ways for each of them to be happy both *in* the marriage and as individuals, that it's true that women have to marry *the* right guy--even if they won't marry even the right guy, if it's the wrong time. That doesn't mean I think there's only one right guy, or that there should be a check list (I strongly reject check lists), but that women have to be sure that the man they're marrying is essentially someone who respects them, has compatible goals and values, can communicate in ways that work for the couple, blah blah blah. And that he's someone who, when bad times come along (as they will), is flexible and smart and confident enough to change or adjust without compromising core things. I think this because it's how my marriage works (and so everyone should be like me!) and also because I think that marriage, for women, carries so much baggage about what we're "supposed" to do or not do that you need a guy who is able to see you as *you*, not as "a wife."
114: Then I say therapy. Learn to figure out how to like and court the "good" girls. Also, you might wanna give my boyfriend a call.
You say the magnet is crazy. But let me ask you, what sane magnet could abide in the world as it is today, backwards and mixed up, where no one will show the slightest regard or sympathy for his fellow magnet? A magnet would really have to be crazy to be sane in this insane world.
Re: therapists pushing drugs.
I have noticed that talk therapy and psycho-pharm are increasingly seen as totally different specialties demanding specialized practitioners.
Psychiatrists are more likely than in the past to suggest drugs as an exclusive remedy. If they don't think drugs are appropriate (rare!) or if they respect your wish not to take them or if they just think you'd benefit from talk therapy, they're apt to suggest the name of a psychologist or social worker for you to talk to instead.
I have gone though long stretches where I wasn't dating anyone. It was a combination of being introverted, short, picky and living in a city where I didn't have an adequate social network. I finally got back together with someone I dated in college 10 years earlier and quickly got married. I am pretty lucky because I don't think I would have gotten any better at dating.
I am not the best person to give advice, but I would suggest doing an inventory with your friends to see if there are any issues that you can fix in your appearence or demeanor. Also, let your friends know that you want to be set up with someone.
I would also suggest something like eharmony that is oriented to people looking for a serious relationship. Going to church wouldn't be a bad idea either.
Isn't it interesting that sex with completely self-involved people can be so fucking hot? Weird.
Man, I don't get the crazy-person love. Who wants to have sex with someone who makes them nervous?
Not nervous. But people who are pretty self-involved and uninhibited don't give a shit what you think of them, so they'll do anything. Whereas when you really like the person, and you're sane enough to have internalized all sorts of cultural norms about what's "freaky," you're a lot more tentative. That's why drunk sex can be so much fun--you overcome the inhibitions that would otherwise make you hold back.
And the advantage of fucking a freak (or a freak-magnet) is that they've seen all sorts of crazy shit so you're not likely to shock them. It can be remarkably freeing.
Although, actually, it's also true that a li'l bit of nervousness can be quite, ah, stimulating.
127: The crazy isn't always apparent from the get-go. Most folks can keep it under a bushel for a spell.
I don't even know how to explain why it's so awesome. It's transgression, it's challenge--they escalate, you escalate, it gets more and more nuts. Things get knocked over, bruises and abrasions occur, and you just don't fucking care.
Or, ummm, so I've heard.
Ah. Personally, my inhibitions work almost completely backward from that (as per always, this refers to back in the day). With someone who's self-involved, and there's not a lot of personal connection, I tend to assume that they've read the Big Book of Sex, and will point and laugh if I do something wrong, resulting in fairly inhibited, dull sex. Someone warm and friendly on the other hand, the penalty for looking like an idiot seems much lower, and things get significantly more interesting.
Hey, some of us are freaky, uninhibited, and sane.
What?
132: Well, that's because you're less crazy (read: better adjusted) than the rest of us.
A couple flings ago I was with a sort-of-crazy guy who described himself as an "ethical sociopath," and the sex was totally hott. I think the two are related, but not for the reasons that bitchphd describes. I'm not sure what the reasons are.
I knew there was a reason I liked you, B.
Ah, I think Chopper supplies part of the answer.
124: A psychiatrist told me once that, since they're M.D.'s and thus hella expensive, their main function should be for the type of treatment that others can't provide, i.e. meds. Psychologists, on the other hand, have talk therapy as basically their sole purpose.
A lot of psychologists do want limited prescription-writing priviliges (for anti-depressants and the like) since they're the ones who spend the bulk of the hours actually seeing psych patients, which would lessen the need to jump back and forth between two doctors. The combo therapies (meds and talk) are usually shown to be the most effective, so having the same person doing both would make things a lot easier.
Freaks.
Sex with freaks is hott, too. Particularly the contortionists.
At this point, H-DiB is probably cowering on the other side of the room, wondering how he got into asking us for advice.
On the 'meeting new people' front -- has anyone dated someone they met online in a non-personal ads context? I notice that I'm 'meeting' a lot more new people these days online than IRL; if I were looking for dates, I'd be thinking about working on my pool of blog-acquaintances.
You mean besides Drymala and myself?
143: Well, in a sort of roundabout fashion, yes (there were a couple of layers of intermediaries). But yeah, meeting people online in a context other than explicitly looking for dates is a good place to start.
I had no idea Drymala was Iranian.
Seriously, if I understood you, I hadn't known how either of you met your significant others. You met your guy online somehow?
Hey JM, will you check your email?
I think JM may have been joking about the rumors about her and Drymala at the first meetup. Joking to mask their truth, of course.
Me? No, I was just trying laboriously to make with the funny. My Skinny Persian and I met at a cafe just off campus where I flirted with him for months by the clever clever technique of never looking at or talking to him. It's a miracle we ever managed to go out on a date.
My impression is that meeting people - not dating, just meeting new people - online tends to be easier in New York City than elsewhere. I have no idea where I got this impression.
Sheer density, I'd say. There's no reason for the Unfogged comments to have a New York bias, but there seem to be more New Yorkers here than there are people from any other one location. I think it's just a dense big city thing.
The crazy isn't always apparent from the get-go. Most folks can keep it under a bushel for a spell.
Even when the crazy isn't kept under a bushel, it sometimes disguises itself as "charmingly quirky" to those not trained by experience to detect it.
Then, sometime later, there comes the gradual realization: "Wait, this person is going to be like this all the time??"
The Onion really said everything first, didn't they.
I have to confess: I myself have been, at times, the crazy lady. And I have something to tell you, Halfway, crazy ladies aren't crazy all the time. I suspect that your "crazy magnet" is more like a "crazy-amplifier." You meet a girl with latent crazy tendencies, and she sees in you something that encourages her to act them out. I don't know you, but my crazy-amplifier boyfriends have all been slightly depressive, dramatic, and attracted to the exotic/odd/nuts. I'm not crazy now (I'm older and less self-absorbed now, and I'm with a nice, practical, sane-inducing boy), but I'm still friendly with some of my crazy-amplifying exes, and they're still single or in one short-term crazy relationship after another. Crazy relationships don't last long.
I met a guy online, sans personal ad. And it's not that weird, because you first meet online, and then you meet in person. And then it's pretty much like any other relationship.
So, if you have a crush on a blog commenter....I mean, really at least you'll never have to explain that there are these things called 'blogs' which you 'read'.
It's often hard to distinguish between "romantic notions" and "craziness." Intense passion often feels crazy. I'd say at least half the people I know have trouble forming stable long-term relationships because their sense of passion borders on the crazy—or on the elusive and just out of reach. You want it, but know it's bad for you, or simply not available, and yet are not really turned on by anything else. This impasse can go on for years.
I don't know that there's always a satisfactory resolution. Therapy does seem one way out. (Has worked for a couple of people I know.) But a lack of passion can be a pretty serious handicap.
I actually came up with a term for this, on my old blog. I can't find those posts anymore, but there is this.
It's actually the theme of a lot of canonical 19th C women's fiction: Jane Austen has Wickham and, more powerfully, Willoughby. There is always Heathcliff. And, in a quieter but equally devastating way, Dorothea chooses Casaubon in Middlemarch.
155: Yes, the 'not that weird' thing was what I was thinking, once you get past the fact that we're all 47 year-old balding men.
You have to deal with some teasing, usually by older family who think the "internet' is where the 'child molesters' are, but dating from online is really a lot more common than it would have been five years ago. You don't go around introducing your significant other as your internet girlfriend, know what I mean?
Plus, I'm a hott 47-year old balding man.
My Skinny Persian and I met at a cafe just off campus where I flirted with him for months by the clever clever technique of never looking at or talking to him.
The one where For the Relief of Unbearable Urges was written?
I know (in an online-only or online-mostly context) plenty of people who've met online, but not via personal ads. Plenty such folks on metafilter and alt.religion.kibology, for instance, plus there's LB's fling with ogged here.
A. Sorry to come late, but I didn't see the obvious answer upthread: get a dog. I see that HDiB isn't into pets, but he should really think it through. (1) every dog I've ever had has been a babe magnet -- distracts from one's flaws -- and most any non-scary dog will do for this; (2) gets to show you caring about someone other than yourself (and you get to care about someone other than yourself -- highly therapeutic); (3) proof you're lovable -- it's contagious; and, most important, (4) a crazy person can fool a horny man, but cannot fool a dog: if the dog says no, you keep moving.
B. Hey, what's so funny about being 47, anyway?
There's nothing funny about being 47, but balding is hilarious.
Here you go. Introduced by a drive-by, oddly enough; I wonder what the greatest comment by a one-time commenter is?
The unrestricted search (Unfogged is top hit of course) yielded this which is on-topic and, horrifyingly, apparently serious.
Hey, look! Alex Katz is nicely bouncy.
I find the content of that link extremely disappointing.
I'm just happy to see "nicely bouncy" spread.
143: It takes more than this to scare me off. Which may be my problem. Honestly, this is interesting and not obviously bad advice.
For comparison purposes, here are some pieces of actual bad advice I have been given recently:
Be more broken, chicks dig that. (From a chick I once dated.)
You should put in fake missed connections on Craig's List and see who answers.
Have you thought about going to [various Eastern European countries] for the women?
How are the divorces among your old college friends coming along? Any prospects?
So.
Be more broken, chicks dig that.
I've not found that to be a very effective strategy.
I've not found that to be a very effective strategy.
Ditto here.
Um, that is to say: the being-broken strategy is ok for setting up the kind of benefits-without-friends and what-will-my-friends-think and
whatever-happened-last-night-we-will-never-speak-of-again situations that ½way says he already has got going on, but not more lasting stuff.
I find the content of that link extremely disappointing.
I'd like to pretend that it's because he doesn't lose his panties quickly enough; but unfortunately your reaction to my website is the standard one.
I'm just happy to see "nicely bouncy" spread.
Doing what I can.
162: I actually bit my tongue (fingers?) to avoid saying get a dog, due to the stated not-liking-of-pets, and it really wouldn't be fair to the dog. For anyone who does like pets at all, CC is absolutely right, at least for a city person where you're walking them. You end up chatting with all sorts of random strangers while your respective pets frolic cutely (or misbehave, allowing for conversation-starting apologies). I was stunned, when I got a dog, how many neighborhood people I met.
sharpei collie sharpei sharpei collie (woof woof)
sharpei collie sharpei sharpei collie (woof woof)
sharpei collie sharpei sharpei collie (woof woof)
sharpei collie sharpei sharpei collie (woof woof)
yip yip yip yip yip yip yip yip
woof woof woof woof woof woof
get a dog
I'm reluctant to endorse that evidence, because cats are better, but it does make sense. OTOH "unfair to the dog" could be a big factor, especially because dogs seem like they'd be really high-maintenance in NYC. Maybe you could borrow someone's dog like in About a Boy? Sorry, I'm not helping.
I was going to suggest borrowing a dog as well. The problem is, one would have to pretty quickly acknowledge that the pet was borrowed, and the whole "I don't like pets" thing would probably be a problem in the eyes of anyone who initiated a conversation with someone because of a dog. It sort of has a "I'm a cold, unfeeling person with no empathy for others" vibe to it, especially as part of a first/early impression.
Cats are indeed much better.
'evidence' in 174 s/b 'advice' and what I mean is "I have no idea whether this would be a smart thing to do." The borrowing a dog thing is kind of a joke, for the farcical potential if you don't acknowledge it's borrowed.
173 - would a pig work? I guess it wouldn't.
143: Yes.
177: No, but walking a cat or a rabbit on a leash = major conversation starter. Also, there's always "do you want to come up to my place and play with my kitten?" Who can resist kittens?
175: "I don't like pets" = deal-breaker.
Also, ferrets, as long as you have one that's not too fond of biting. Major chick magnet. Downside: a little bit of a crazy magnet as well. I imagine catwalking has the same problem.
I imagine catwalking has the same problem.
Aren't models, supposedly, both crazy and boring? A paradox.
B. Hey, what's so funny about being 47, anyway
It's a bit young. A man is not truly desirable until he has put in at least half a century of living.
Don't get a dog if you're not a dog person. Not fair to the dog, and you'll meet a woman who is a dog person, and then you'll have to tell her, and then you'll look like a tool.
If you are a cat person, this is not an advantage. 'I can be tolerated by a cat' is not as inviting as 'Oh, I love this bouncy, friendly dog.'
When I was last single, I had a three legged dog.* Major plus in the getting-to-know-people-of-the-other-gender department. I may not have been fighting 'em off with a stick, but that's probably just because I'm not 50 yet. And am going gray rather than bald.
* A very good dog, at that. She used to come to class with me when I was an undergrad; half the profs let her lie on the floor in the back, the other half made her wait outside. She learned a lot about crazy humans walking to class through the Berkeley campus and near-campus neighborhoods.
I've actually found that some people of the opposite sex find my untrammelled devotion to my cat endearing, although it sometimes took the form of "If you die can I have your cat?" (This story.)
That whole thread, being about dogs, cats, happiness, and biscuit conditionals, is potentially on topic.
Cat people are inherently creepy.
We may not know where you live, Tim. But the cats, they know.
"do you want to come up to my place and play with my kitten?"
Much more effective coming from a woman.
I like my cat, but I'm pretty sure she's mostly indifferent to me. She'd be fine with anyone who would let her bat things off the desk.
Well, pigs don't necessarily need to be leashed.
If ½way got a pet rooster, he could use the pickup line, "Want to come up to my place and play with my cock?" Would prolly run afoul of zoning regs in Brooklyn though, I imagine, and cause tensions with the neighbors. Plus cocks are not in point of fact particularly playful.
Also he could learn to cook the dish and then use the line, "Hey babe, can I interest you in some coq au vin?" I think that would be a good line to use anyways.
cocks are not in point of fact particularly playful
Google dissents. Bonus: a playful cock-a-poo.
183, 185: A man who knows how to pet a cat, knows how to pet a woman.
Dogs, not so much. Chucking women under the chin /= hot.
Chucking women under the chin /= hot.
But they love it if you scratch their tummy and make their leg twitch back and forth.
194: A friend of mine in Prospect Heights, Brooklyn, had a neighbor with a rooster that woke him up every morning. So that could be a good strategy for Halfway Done to pursue.
Yeah, but is a man who makes you pee in a box preferable to a man who makes you pee in the back yard?
Damn. I need My Alter Ego to reassure me that a family history of craziness will not make me permanently undesirabe as marriage material.
Slightly OT: A question for those of you in therapy. Have you told your therapist about your blog habits. I'm always vaguely embarassed by it. I'm actually participating in a medical study right now studying the children of the crazy, and the young psych intern does not find it weird, but I'm afraid that my therapist would think that having blog friends was a sign of pathology.
Don't tell him/her that one of your blog friends is named "My Alter Ego." (Sorry, probably poor taste.)
206: Just a bit, although, actually I would saythat it was less a question of being in poor poor taste and more just mildly insensitive. But I forgive you.
BG, I think you worry about having crazy parents, at least in regards to mate-finding, far more than is necessary. The guy who would otherwise want to marry you, but wouldn't because of that, is more hidebound than John Doris on his worst day.
Also, what is the point of having a therapist if you keep things from them? Might your worry about what your therapist would think be...transference?
Matt Weiner is banned!
On the posting of 208, a thousand baby hugs with flappy angel wings fluttered out of Matt's computer, like soap bubbles from a wand dipped tenderness.
When did I turn into ogged?
Is the want dipped in tenderness or with tenderness? Or both?
(Either way, it's lovely.)
So how was the art thingy that 'smasher came up to New York for? I considered e-mailing to invite myself, but I have my last two finals of the semester are on Monday and Tuesday, respectively, and decided not to shoot myself in the foot (or worse) by not studying.
Cat people are inherently creepy.
Cats will teach you how to treat the ladies. With cats you have to read body language, learn that they won't be touched until they're ready. And even then it can't be just any old way. Too fast and/or too hard and it'll leave. But pay attention, start slow, and they'll position themselves to be touched in certain places, and even press into your hand when you've found just the right spot.
Dogs, on the other hand, largely appeal to people enamored with the idea of a creature that no matter how many times you rough it up, will still run over and press it's face into your crotch.
215: neither. A hyphen was missing; it's "wand-dipped tenderness", that is, tenderness that had been dipped in wands.
210- I know someone who got a second therapist, so he could tell her all the things he couldn't tell the first.
209: Tia, you're probably right. I don't think that it's a problem for dating or even relationships, but it's true that I'm terrified that nobody would ever marry me because of my family, mainly, because I know that *I* wouldn't marry someone with a family like mine. So, maybe I'm more hidebound than JOhn Doris on his worst day--and therefore... Also, apostropher has written a lot about avoiding crazy people because of his previous experience with one. Crazy means different things in different contexts, so I'm not totally sure whether everyone means the same thing by the term"crazy magnet."
Anyway, I don't know whether it's transference so much as not wanting to look weak. It's very strange and not really appropriate for this blog. I will say that I would get another one except that it's sliding scale--practically free, because it's a resident, and I don't completely trust him, since he's so inexperienced.
Anyway, backto Halfway Done's problems.
*bangs head against wall, mostly because of ac's acquaintance, not BG*
People! Your therapist is not your special friend who you can tell your secrets to. It's someone who, among other things, creates a context that is specifically valuable for exploring the ways your relationships with other people get replayed in the relationship with the therapist. If you feel the need to two time your goddamned therapist that need, and it's significance for your life, should be discussed in therapy. If you don't like something about your therapist, you should talk about it with the therapist because it likely illuminates some other dynamic in your life!!1!1 Unless your therapist just sucks for whatever reason, and then you should get a new one. But you should try talking to your therapist about why you don't like them before you jump to a new one, because it's possibly fruitful to explore what's irritating you. Like me and the "bummer" therapist. (BG I meant transference in the broad sense, encompassing projection--not wanting to look weak would count, since it's unlikely the therapist would actually judge you for weakness.)
215: Thanks, Becks. Dipped in tenderness. Actually 3 parts water, 1 part tenderness, 2 parts glycerine.
The man with two therapists was dating a friend of mine, and I predicted, based on the therapy story, that he also had another girlfriend. She asked him about it, and of course it turned out he did. He actually had a fiancee.
I just looked up whether they ever got married, and found that there was a Vows column devoted to them. Apparently he's a poetic soul, and Leonard Bernstein used to play the piano at his family's Christmas parties.
his previous experience with one
Not one. Several.
Hey, Ezra and Sausagely picked up the "crazy" conversation; Ezra coming down on the anti-crazy side, and Sausagely noting that whoever may be better in bed, Harvard grads are crazier than anyone.
I have to suspect that it's impossible for rising young pundits to write honestly about such matters...
He's definitely right about the Harvard thing, judging from my extremely limited experience.
I wonder if the study Gladwell cites (mentioned in Yglesias's second craziness post) is affected by the fact that the institution in question used to be a girls' school. The admission of boys and increased prospects for women may have changed that dynamic somewhat, since 1960. And about five to ten percent of the graduating class usually goes to Harvard. Do they just skim the crazy off the top?
Halfway Done:
If you're still reading this thread, go to Amazon and buy a copy of Neil Strauss' book, the Game. I'm sure you can take it from there. Believe me, things will change if you go after it the same way you hit the gym.
Damn. I need My Alter Ego to reassure me that a family history of craziness will not make me permanently undesirabe as marriage material.
I reassure you a second time. A guy who really wants to marry you won't care how crazy your family is. Or, if he does care, he'll want to marry you anyway.
Don't tell him/her that one of your blog friends is named "My Alter Ego." (Sorry, probably poor taste.)
Ah, but My Alter Ego is in poor taste! I could point out numerous examples here and on my own blog that would serve to confirm this. Indeed, what is the point of having an alter ego if the alter ego can't be in poor taste, at least once in a while?
MAE,
Thanks again. I just clicked through to your blog, and I have to say that I imagined you as a guy. Weird. Maybe I just assume that everyone with a non-gendered name is male. Hmmm.
In any case, it is slightly less reassuring that all of this reassurance is coming from women and not men.
Thanks again. I just clicked through to your blog, and I have to say that I imagined you as a guy. Weird. Maybe I just assume that everyone with a non-gendered name is male. Hmmm
Holy shit! How the hell did that happen? Is the day of the Union of Alter Egos upon us? In the great Alter Collective Unconscious, some wires must have gotten crossed.
I am indeed male, and my correct blog address is linked below. (I must admit, though, I am intrigued at the possibility of trying out my newfound alter-existance as a 31-year-old lesbian.)
205:
I definately tell my therapist about my blog habits, blog crushes, what my wife's is reaction to same, what impact blog emotions have on my day, constant-refresh days versus take-it-or-leave-it days, etc. It turns out a lot of his clients have some internet habits worth exploring. I have the impression mine are considered very constructive, because shared, worked through and exploratory. But from what he's said in a general and anecdotal way, I have the impression that the internet and what we use it for and get out of it is a bigger and bigger issue in relationships and self-knowledge, and therapists spend a lot of time talking about it.
MAE, for a 31-year-old lesbian, you sure don't update your blog much.
I should have realized that it wasn't your blog, My Alter Ego, since there wasn't a blog roll on the lesbian's page, and she can't spell very well, and, as apo says, she hasn't updated her blog all that much.
