I pretty much avoid conflict whenever I can, but sometimes a punch in the head is the only way to get through to somebody. Good on you.
I don't think this story is embarrassing. I think it's awesome.
I punched someone in the face once--a twelve or thirteen year old kid (of course, I was only 17 at the time) who thought it would be funny to grope me in front of his little friends. Turns out it wasn't that funny.
Go you.
Yeah, given that he wasn't in position to kick your ass (since the lesbians would've taken him down) this seems like the right thing to do.
I used to teach classes on conflict resolution
You've made such progress, Becks.
Maybe we should start using the term "get all Becks on his ass" to mean knocking sense into someone.
Good job, I say.
He was being a bully, and sometimes you have to bully a bully to make them stop. You tried to talk to him and it didn't work, so it was okay to hit him.
I do think the world without pacifists would be an uglier place, but it is only extraordinary people who are able to hold on to that conviction against non-violence all the time. Sometimes you have to hit back.
Generation Awesome strikes again. You rule.
I haven't thrown a punch since I was a child -- but that doesn't mean it's not sometimes the best of bad options. I think you should be proud of both generally not hitting people and of hitting this particular asshole in this situation.
A commitment to seek peaceful resolution is not a suicide pact, to paraphrase.
5 -- this coinage would interact well with "Becks-style" when talking about a belligerent drunk.
This is why you're taught never to pick on someone smaller than you -- because the smaller person and a crowd of lesbians might kick your ass.
9 - To clarify, on this occasion I was in no way drunk. I hadn't had anything to drink that night.
I'm sure CÆ was referring to the general case: "Yo, I was so Becks-style I totally got all Becks on that asshole's ass" etc.
Cry "Havoc," and let slip the dogs of war.
A farmer walked by his farmer neighbor's field every day and admired his neighbor's hard-working jackass pulling a plow. One day he offers to buy his neighbor's jackass and his neighbor agrees. The buying farmer pays the agreed price and walks up to the jackass, grabs the lead, says "come along, jack" (as he had seen the former owner do many times before) and starts walking toward his own farm. But he is stopped short by the lead. The jackass hasn't moved. Trying again, he repeats the procedure to the same effect. Getting angry, he asks the former owner if he has sold him the same jackass he has seen so obediently plowing his field.
The former owner says, "That is the same jackass," while picking up a 2 x 4 and walking up to the front of the jackass. He then clubs the jackass across the side of the head with the 2 x 4 and says, "try him now." This time the jackass complies readily with the command "come along, jack."
The former owner, noticing the puzzled look on the buyers face says, "He's very obedient but first you have to command his attention."
I want to hear more about the actual hitting, because one of the things that bothers me most about myself, physically, is that I haven't the first clue how to really throw a punch. Was it actually a reasonably effective blow? Not as in, did it knock him down, which it didn't obviously. More like, did you not fall down yourself and did you not look like a fool?
a group of really butch lesbians let me know they had my back
What did they say?
Yes, pretty awesome.
What would have been funny is if everone would've chided Becks for hitting that guy and said she was a horrible uncool person.
W00t! I whole-heartedly approve of punching drunken assholes.
I join in the chorus of support. There's a huge difference between hitting someone, and hitting someone back, and particularly hitting someone so that they will stop hitting you. Given that he had been repeatedly slamming into you, you were absolutely right. (This wouldn't be a good enough reason to hit him if it weren't reasonably safe to do so, but given the lesbians who had your back, it sounds perfectly sensible.)
I think that the whole "when is it okay to hit someone" thing is pretty easy to assess:
If butch lesbians are willing to back you up, you're in the right.
If butch lesbians would be willing to back you up, you're in the right. Hypothetical lesbian support suffices.
22 could be an interestingly generalizable point. Was was the opinion of the butch lesbian community on the invasion of Iraq?
I think about punching people a lot. Or hurting them in other ways. A moron on a bicycle nearly ran over my youngest last winter, and it was all I could do to restrain myself from pushing him off his bike.
Seeing as it worked - and talking clearly wouldn't have - you probably did the right thing. I'm not surprised you felt really weird about it though!
Butch lesbians are truly the salt of the earth.
You've made such progress, Becks.
F'reals. Good job Becks! Next time kick 'im in the nuts then punch him right in the throat. He'll go down like Vox Day on a realdoll.
Where are the lipstick lesbians on this scale? Do their votes count for nothing?! Free [famous lipstick lesbian]!
Free [famous lipstick lesbian], with the purchase of a 20 oz. soft drink.....
My daughter had a very similar experience this winter, but missed and fell down, breaking her arm. Not enough butch lesbians at her college, I guess. They didn't say anything about that in the Princeton Review.
15 - OK, about the actual hitting -- I've never hit anything outside of a kickboxing class at the gym. It didn't knock him down or anything but I also didn't fall on my ass or look like an idiot, so I guess that's a fair compromise for my first time punching anything.
17 - About the lesbians, after I hit the guy, I kind of panicked and looked around like "OMG! Am I in trouble? Did anyone see that?" and a couple of the lesbians in the group next to me who had staked out a place to my right gave me a little head nod like "Yeah, we saw that. Good for you. We got you covered." Who knows if they really would have but it made me feel better than if everyone had scurried.
CC: Effort counts as much as results. Free CC's daughter!
Ah, you've taken kickboxing classes. Got it.
One of the things I want to do and will never get around to is taking boxing classes, specifically for the "learning how to hit people" thing.
Speaking of lesbians and objective rightness, I have to say I'm terribly disappointed in Jodie Foster.
Under the circumstances, hitting the guy was the right thing to do. As I've found out, hitting someone who can fight better than you is not smart, though as I've also found out, if you don't have much of a punch, sometimes they barely notice. So whenever I have violent fantasies or think that violence moight be actual, I now think of weapons.
Reluctance to use violence at all is characteristic of most of the educated middle class, and many Jews, Chinese-Americans, and women. Many men outside those groups take great pride in their ability to use violents, even if they actually have no such ability.
I think that alcoholism is a lying copout. People use it as an excuse. The worst thing I do when I get drunk is repeat myself, slur my words, and get very clumsy.
34 - Yeah, but they're just the stupid girlie kickboxing classes at the gym that don't care about form or anything and are about as badass as a step class. It's not like they taught technique or even involved hitting a bag.
36: Further evidence that all drinking does is make you more yourself.
It'll surprise no one to find out that when I'm drunk, I flirt.
B, have you seen Hedy Lamarr's autobiography, "Ecstasy and Me"? She actually fits her life in 50s Hollywood-scandal mode (with the obigatory medical disclaimers), but she had an amazing life and says lots of interesting things. She was 100% polyamorous and 100% Mom, which for a Viennese wasn't really rare. She also did the screen's first fake orgasm and first nude scene.
The book even leaves out her involvement in high-tech.
34: Fuck off. Jodie Foster can do no wrong. I feel absolutely adamant about this. She may have a perspective that we cannot all appreciate in our lowered state, but that's as far as I'm willing to go.
35: Under the circumstances, hitting the guy was the right thing to do. As I've found out, hitting someone who can fight better than you is not smart, though as I've also found out, if you don't have much of a punch, sometimes they barely notice.
Men are generally reluctant to hit women (or at least women they don't know) in public. I've seen similar things happen in the past, and been told others, all with roughly similar results. Womyn of America, slug away! (Male friends of Womyn of America, though, should be safely elsewhere. In one of the stories I was told, a male friend of the woman involved got jumped and badly beaten two weeks later.)
Even though it didn't work out, I'm grateful for the secret messages Jodie was sending to what's-his-name through the fillings in his teeth.
Some guys are not reluctant to hit women, unfortunately.
Sleater-Kinney hosts a rock camp for girls here in Portland, with -- last year, at least -- a self-defense workshop. My girls are only three and a half, but when they're old enough, they're definitely going.
43 - It's always (by which I mean for the past few months) been my opinion that kids should be taught how to play drums or bass guitar or something cool and useful like that as a kid, instead of piano or violin or something else traditional. I bet they're way more likely to stick with it in their teenage years, and it would even provide them with pretty decent college jobs if they're good enough to play in a local band that gets gigs
Rock camps forever. Also, to stay slightly on-topic, punching drunk guys with butch back-up forever.
42: That's too true, and very, very sad. My very limited experience is that men tend to hit women they know, and in private. But I've been very fortunate in not having very much exposure to this.
Thinking about it, if some random woman walked up to me and decked me, I don't know what I'd do. I don't think I'd feel comfortable hitting her back, though, unless I felt threatened with serious injury.
If you start out with piano you get a foundation in how to read treble and bass clef and the piano is also relatively easy to learn. Branching out later is easier because of it.
I'm with SCMTim on Jodie Foster.
I don't drink because I'm afraid of who I am on the inside. I'd like to think I'm like a friend of mine who drinks (more or less to excess) at parties, but only when appropriate and she gets really giggly and flirty and adorable and everybody loves her. I feel like I have all this anger and hostility and all sorts of aggresion bottled up in my psyche's subbasement and if I drink, it'll all get out. It's one of my big fears/shames, like I'm putting on a show of being thoughtful and gentle and if I drink, the secret will be out and everybody will know what a drunken abusive asshole I really am on the inside.
Offtopic, oh, the NYT Styles: "Nowadays, private air travel has become so mainstream that it's like a Starbucks card, just a little bit more expensive."
It's exactly like coffee, in that no one can afford it and it's not on every second street corner.
if some random woman walked up to me and decked me, I don't know what I'd do
I was walking along, hands in my pockets, with the ex and a (lesbian) friend, and a woman walking in the other direction with her friend whacked me on the head as she went by. I kept walking. I mean, what the hell is there to do in that situation?
Clearly Starbucks hasn't let you know about the jewel-encrusted card with a $10,000 minimum. It's helpful for getting their $1000 truffle lattes.
44: I was watching some awesome street performance today (violin and guitar—they were so good they must have made 50 € in thirty minutes) and thinking about whether I would be like every other wannabe-upperclass parent and make my kid take violin lessons. The violin is so cool though. But I think the guitar might be a better idea. I wish I'd had guitar lessons when I was a kid; maybe I'd suck less now, then. Although there is the size problem.
44 & 45: A little background: my wife is an elementary school music teacher, and one of my freelance gigs is as a classical music critic. The girls already want to play piano, violin, guitar, percussion, clarinet and several other things they've been exposed to, and they'll have opportunities to do all that and more. But beyond that, I come from a family of strong women, and I want my daughters to know how to kick ass and take no shit. And have fun, of course -- so rock camp it will be.
Piano lessons may be more versatile, but you should definitely buy your children a bass. Don't even bother with lessons. It is easy enough to do simple bass lines, and the most important thing about a bass player--far moreso than talent--is that they have a bass. Your child will be in five bands simultaneously.
Oh, screw the fancy em-dash things, I'm posting already.
Dude, our scientologist friend just offered to give me a "nerve assist" to help me get better faster. I said yes, just for your guys, and now I wonder if she's going to gain control of my BRANE.
ogged, I hope your mental will to resist is stronger than Katie Holmes'.
The real question is, what if you're brainwashed before you get a chance to blog about it? Then it will have all been for nought. Lesson: blogging is the gateway religion.
Piano lessons may be more versatile, but you should definitely buy your children a bass. Don't even bother with lessons. It is easy enough to do simple bass lines, and the most important thing about a bass player--far moreso than talent--is that they have a bass. Your child will be in five bands simultaneously.
Exactly. It seems like a similar deal if you're a good drummer, from what I've seen in the Chicago scene. This may all be my personal prejudices for modern pop and rock music, but I know I would have been way more likely to stick with drums through high school than if I'd learned any other instrument. Admittedly, if you don't have a city with somewhat thriving music scene around, a kid is going to have trouble staying motivated no matter what.
I don't think little kids will do too well to learn sampling and DJ mixing, though it'd be awesome if they could. In fact, that's it, I'll have two turntables with a simple mixer and teach my kid to beat-match Raffi records. My 12-year-old will be the coolest kid ever when he or she DJ's for the middle-school dance instead of awkwardly avoiding dancing with the opposite sex.
My son is a bass player, among other things. Bass players always have work, but in most bands they are The Bass Player. Anonymity, no groupies, no interviews, less money, and the lead guys don't necessarily even talk to you.
58: Those are only downsides if the bands in question are professional (and if your son is not Charlie Watts, apparently). I'm just talking about socializing in high school.
But if you want to take it pro, maybe the stick would help.
Y'all I need a general thread where I can pose an "Ask the Mineshaft Question" w/r/t career advice and a weird exchange at the supermarket.
60: Pink Floyd and The Police also have famous bass players.
Were you offered a job while at the supermarket?
Paul McCartney was a bass player.
Paul McCartney was a bass player.
You say that like it's a good thing.
Bill Wyman was the one who kept stat on the bandmembers scoring after gigs. He scored quite will. Charlie Watts was zero (married) and Keith Richard was close to zero, but Wyman and Brian Jones were in the triple figures.
I used to teach classes on conflict resolution, for Christ's sake!
Sometimes a punch in the head is the best method of resolving a conflict.
Also, 36 is true. People who are assholes when drunk are just assholes.
Also also, learning to punch properly is a majorly worthwhile skill. It might not make you able to win a fight against someone who knows what they are doing -- see past threads, passim -- but at least you won't break your wrist or all of the bones in your hand while doing so.
67 contains information that John has posted here at least twice before.
What I would like to know is who keeps those stats for KISS.
64: Almost. I'm working as a cashier at a WF on weekends to make extra money.
Some guy came in a while ago who made these weird almost semi-autistic jokes which made me think that he was an engineer. So I asked him if he was, and he said "No. He was an investment banker. He bought and sold companies." He sounded like he was talking to a 3 year-old. I smiled a bit archly and said, "I know what M&A is."
Then he asked me how I knew and I said blah blah blah college blah blah. I said something about X bank and about awful hours, and he said that the hours were a lot better when you own the company.
And he asked me how I wound up at WF etc., gave me his card and asked me to send me my resume. I didn't cause I got a slight creep vibe. I sort of thought he might be hitting on me. Also the firm is really tiny.
So I saw the dude again the other day, and asked if I remembered him. Blah blah. I said that I did and asked how teh investment banking business was going, that I have an excellent memory etc. Wanted to give me his card again, because I never sent him my resume.
I said that I had no investment banking skills, and (I didn't say, but I thought that) it seemed really odd to me, because his firm is too small to have a formal training program. He said taht anyoen smart can learn etc. Mentioned his buddy who met Carl Icahn in the South of France; Icahn asked his friend to work for him, but he'd never heard of Icahn and turned him down. Now that friend is kicking himself over it.
I said that I would send it, so I will; but I can't figure out how I would explain an interest in banking. Why, for example, would someone prefer working as a banker to work as a corporate lawyer? (All the thigns one can say taht are negative about that sort of practice apply to banking too, no?)
Also, I'm not sure what is meant by the following:
"Personalized client relationships are encouraged and often exceed normal business expectations in order to accommodate client schedules and satisfy special social or geographic requirements." What the hell are "special social requirements" that *exceed* normal business expectations. Also, there are no women on the staff.
For KISS, they had to use scientific notation. If Gene Simmons is to be believed, at any rate.
Also for Simon and Garfunkel.
I love Jodie Foster too, but alas, Mel Gibson is really undefendable.
Re. women hitting men, it's true--most guys (even pretty drunk) won't hit back in public. It's a fairly useful fact I've taken advantage of when drunken jerks were acting jerky in bars, much to the consternation of my male friends, who were afraid they'd get hit on my behalf (they didn't).
Re. Hedy Lamaar, I did not know that, and I shall obvs. have to read her biography. Thanks for the recommendation, John.
Re. Scientology, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Admit it, Ogged. You didn't say yes for us; you said yes because you couldn't think of a polite way to say, "are you nuts?"
If Gene Simmons is to be believed, at any rate.
Paul Stanley too, IME.
I can't believe BG is about to sell herself into white slavery and you people are going on about bass players.
69: I was thinking of our new members. I don't have the capacity to link to my own old posts, as some here do.
Thanks ogged. Yes, exactly.
Also the first time I met him he didn't actually ask me to send a resume. He just gave me his card and asked me to e-mail him.
If you send that guy your resume, don't put your home addy and phone number on it, dude.
Paul Stanley too, IME.
Dude! First-hand experience?
BG, that's a little weird and is striking me as a little too Eliza Doolittle. Say you've decided to go into philosophy graduate school; that should make him reconsider your business sense.
I can't believe BG is about to sell herself into white slavery and you people are going on about bass players.
Speaking of bass players, why don't any of the cute female bassists want groupies? Drummers and bassists are hot, people. I will not hear anything against them and their groupie-pulling potential.
Also, investment banking sucks. The "extra special client-servicing" mostly means that you should be willing to work crazy hours because sometimes a CEO will ask for something at 4 pm, because it had slipped his mind, and you'll have to say "Yessir!" when he asks for the reports to be on his desk tomorrow. Also, there's the late night boozing and whoring that constitutes "client relation building" if you're high-level.
Hey have any of you guys trued the wheel of a bike? Any pointers? The wheel is only slightly out of true in a pretty localized way; I figured this would be as good a time as any to figure it out.
My sister learned to play bass guitar after playing the cello for 7 years. She picked up on it pretty quick.
78: As a newcomer, I have only begun to pore over the Unfogged archives like a Talmudic scholar, so I appreciate your efforts to bring me up to speed. And I second your recommendation of Hedy Lamarr. She and the composer George Antheil came up with a torpedo guidance system in the early years of WWII. My kind of gal.
BG, did you Google him?
It sounds like a cheesy pickup to me, bg.
I also met former Senator Graham of Florida there, and he gave me his card at the Kennedy school. Sadly that got lost when my wallet was stolen, but I had his cell phone. We were just chatting about nuclear proliferation. I think he gave me the card to get rid of me as much as anything else.
I already admitted that Warren Buffet was my childhood hero, Cala, so I'm not sure that that would work.
He went to an Ivy School that rivals mine which made me think that it might be slightly less creepy because of that. Don't ask me why. It's not that there aren't a lot of creepy Ivy League people; it's just that I thought that he might be prompted by Ivy League affinity or something.
I did google him and may ask my uncle who might live in his town whether he knows the guy.
83: Is the wheel obviously bent when you spin it on the axle, or is it spinning on an angle because the axle has slipped inside the well?
If it's spinning wobbily or on an angle against the axle, I'm out of ideas short of it being something wrong with the bearings and axle themselves.
83--Clown, I've tried, mostly with kicking and cursing, and failed.
BostonianGirl, that guy sounds not so on the up-and-up; if I were you, I would research his company as thoroughly as you can before accepting any job offer. And when you say "small," how small do you mean? Four guys working the phones in a small office? Because, seriously, is he offering you work or trying to get in your pants?
I've known a couple of people who did investment banking for a while--the hours are crazy, and on a higher level, I think you're supposed to do a lot of schmoozing. Of the young guys I know who did it, one of them quit quickly, and the other one was quitting gradually when, um, he got a brain tumor. An uncle of mine went into it after a career in sales, and he got rapidly downsized out when it became clear he wasn't particularly good at it. Wait, I sort of know one other guy who does investment banking, and he works hard, but has a family and hobbies and seemed really sensible and human when I met him.
I did google him and looked up the firm. He was on the crew team at his college. He appeared to be almost old enough to be my father.
Googling also revealed that his sister's wedding appeared in the New York Times. Where is alameida when I need her?
Also, he said that I could send teh resume to info@company.com, but that it was better if I sent it to him. Normally, of course, it's better to send your resume to a real person, but, under the circumstances, it seemed weird.
Why, for example, would someone prefer working as a banker to work as a corporate lawyer?
More money. Apart from that, as I understand it, it sucks more. Entry-level investment banking jobs involve working actual eighty-hour weeks, I think.
One from Paul Stanley's schlong. Wow. That's not first hand, though, but second-"hand" (metonymy or something).
B., you have to edit the book while reading, because 2 ghost writers and an editor were involved, but there's a lot of stuff that can't have been made up. Lots of insights into fifties culture -- you can talk about sex if you clinicalize it a bit, for example. Book is 1966 but the feeling is very pre-Beatles.
Awesome.
PK is beating me at Monopoly Jr. Why do kids always win the fucking Monopoly games?
Most of the people I know who do investment banking plan to do it for two years out of college, where they will be corporate whores before a) giving back by saving the world overseas in a service-oriented Wanderjahr or b) going to law school.
Those were my concerns exactly. As far as I can tell, one guy at hsi level, one young guy and another associate person who lives in England.
I think their market is providing more sophisticated services to companies that are below the Fortune 500 rankings. They do have tombstones.
I did have a Har/vard Dean ask me to apply for a job at Harvard, but taht makes sense, since my language skills are actually relevant to working as an administrator for the Com/par/ative Lit. Dept. Also, Har/vard offers amazing benefits.
83: If you don't have a truing stand, adjust the brakes so that the untrue part of the rim just catches when you spin the wheel. Identify the half-dozen spokes on either side of that point; a quarter turn at a time, tighten the ones that pull the rim away from the pad and loosen the rest. Repeat until you can adjust the brakes so that the pads rub evenly against the rim.
Having read all the bizillion comments I missed due to my piss-poor connection, I feel a little better about semi-autistic, father's-aged, Ivy-League dude. If you do some research on the company (do you have LexisNexis access?), if you ask around a bit about him personally, then why not see whether it wouldn't be a decent fit?
Just because you go to an interview, or even just because you get a job offer, doesn't mean you can't make your own decisions. If it's skeevy during the process, then you can mention that other fabulous job offer you're considering and back out--or get better terms, as you like.
And maybe you won't like the work, but I haven't ever heard that having worked as an investment banker was actually a bad thing for one's resume.
The guy skeeves me out mostly for the assumption that a cashier couldn't possibly know what a luverly professional job is. From what you've said, I'm as unimpressed as I would be if he tried to demonstrate his superiority by insulting the waitstaff.
96--Well, you're at the non-committal point, right? So ask him. Maybe he'll be disappointed, maybe he'll be shocked, but maybe he'll respect your moxie for the question.
Is B right that I shouldn't use my real address and phone, cause the only telephone number I've got is my cell.
And he's not quite as old as my Dad. It's entirely possible that he's in his mid-to late 40's, and since he can guess that I'm 30, he might not think that he was robbing the cradle.
Thanks, jmcq! I will go do it now. Or possibly, I will go read some Carson McCullers stories, and do the bike tomorrow.
Silvana--There appear to be a fair number of HLS graduates who decide that they don't want to practice law and go into banking instead.
Is doing due diligence on a company less routine than doing the legal work for an IPO. Where is LizardBreath? Also, I really think that I need alameida's advice. Do you all think that she would answer an e-mail? Then I could get her to look at the sister's NY Times wedding announcement with her super special sekritt decoder glasses.
By the way, BostonianGirl, I'm very envious that you met Sen. Graham of Florida. I wanted him to stick around longer in the primaries; maybe I just wanted to hear some of the secrets I knew he was guarding, and for that matter, I still do.
alameida would respond to an e-mail, I bet.
Now, children. There's nothing wrong with older guys.
My biggest triumph as an older guy was to convince one of the founders of MoveOn, the nephew of an old friend, that embittered ex-leftists had interesting things to say, but were not likely to have much to contribute to a successful political movement. True story.
83: Read this: http://parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=81
Also, remember that when you are looking down at the spoke nipples, you tighten them by turning counter-clockwise.
re: 75
It's a fairly useful fact I've taken advantage of when drunken jerks were acting jerky in bars, much to the consternation of my male friends, who were afraid they'd get hit on my behalf (they didn't).
I empathise with your male friends. Some guys really will take it out on the 'male companion' even if they won't hit a 'girl'.
The worst kicking I ever got was when a guy was hassling me and I was doing the 'right' thing -- i.e. sending submissive signals, trying to chill things out, pretty much grovelling -- and my then girlfriend was giving the guy total grief, 'You can't talk to him [i.e. me] like that, etc.' and generally escalating the confrontation while I was trying to chill it out.
The guy was being a dick, she was right about that, but if she'd followed my lead -- i.e. doing the sensible thing rather than the morally righteous thing -- I wouldn't have ended up in the hospital after biting all the way through my lip when the guy kicked me in the head.
How is it that we're having a conversation about truing bicycle wheels and no one's made a joke about a nipple wrench? ("Nipple wrench" is also another word for "nerve assist," ogged.)
In all seriousness, heed Willy Voet's advice. It's enormously counterintuitive to turn the things that way, but it's correct. I learned this the hard way.
but in most bands they are The Bass Player
From much earlier, learning to punch properly is a skill that everybody should acquire, in the hopes that you never have to use it. Learning to take a punch is a valuable skill as well, but much less pleasant to learn.
109: Hee. It was, indeed, in the UK when my guy friends were annoyed at me over that shit. In my defense, I didn't make a production out of their being with me.
Learning to take blows, on the other hand, is not unenjoyable.
109: Obviously, you should have punched your girlfriend in the head before it escalated.
I tend to be very moralistic about getting other people into fights on one's behalf. Nobody is obliged to finish an avoidable fight I started. Two people together is better than one, obviously, but that's so that if you are attacked, you can fight together. I don't really know because I don't get into fights, personally or vicariously.
Dirty looks at waitresses who discriminate against children is about as violent as I get.
That said, brava to Becks for fighting her own battles, and just enough.
109: Or you both should have attacked him pre-emptively.
what's the waitress story? are kids in bars against liquor laws, or was she just being a pill for no reason?
It can't be against the law, because Newt and Sally go to dinner with us in the local bucket of blood all the time. I have a certain amount of sympathy for the policy (if they're looking for an after-work energetic young crowd, I can see not wanting kids around) but I can't see why they wouldn't stretch a point for Clown given a promise that the kid wouldn't be there for long.
One of the reasons I didn't tell people about it at the time was that I felt kind of bad for doing it in a city that wasn't my own. Had I punched someone at Roseland Ballroom or the 9:30 Club, I don't think I would have felt so guilty. Looking back on it, I think I was less bothered by the fact that I hit someone who was being a jerk than the feeling that I may have violated the rules of hospitality. There was something about being a visitor in an unfamiliar place where many people greeted me with kindness and showed me around...and the feeling that punching someone made me a bad guest in their fair city.
Or, alternatively, think of it as having made you the new sheriff in town.
Yesss.... give in to your anger! Let it flow through you. Embrace the power of the dark side. Our people will be sending you a GOP starter kit and our latest pamplet, "Violence: The Key to World Peace."
In all seriousness, good one, Becks. More power to you.
122: In that case, I hope you guys left a shitty tip.
Of course, if you aren't comfortable throwing a punch, there's always this approach.
Yesss.... give in to your anger! Let it flow through you. Embrace the power of the dark side. Our people will be sending you a GOP starter kit and our latest pamplet, "Violence: The Key to World Peace."
Just don't use bad words.
(Am I allowed to give GB shit about this yet?)
Bass players are essential to the band, and the good ones are really good even though you don't always know it, and they can be the smartest musician in the band too, but by and large they don't have much charisma. Paul McCartney was a lead singer who also played base, and had a pretty face, and had a tender, sensitive, spiritual side many found intensely appealing, rather than vomitous.
The advantage of size is big enough in the punching world that I really believe that for non-big people avoidance and weapons are the only ways to go. You get a lot of credit for hlding your own with a much bigger guy, but if he can fight at all you normally lose.
#129: A lot of times, if a woman hits a man, the man won't hit back. Call it sexist, but that's the way it is.
Paul McCartney has puppy-dog eyes, which is inherently vomitous.
As far as not allowing in children into the bar, I suspect it's an atmosphere thing. If my shameful New York Magazine addiction has taught me anything, it's that a number of parents in NYC are bringing their babies to bars with them because they refuse to acknowledge that parenthood has changed their life and that those parents are changing the vibe in some bars to the point that it scares of the singleton 20-somethings, much to the annoyance of bar owners. (One of many recent articles on the subject.) I think there's something very different about bringing a crying baby in an SUV-sized Maclaren stroller or a toddler who is running around vs. a nice, well-behaved young girl like CÆ's daughter but they may just have a blanket policy.
Ah, so it's because New York bars have succumbed to the child freepers. Lovely.
#128: (Am I allowed to give GB shit about this yet?)
Why should now be any different than all the other times?
122: I see it as discretionary policy, according to which the regulars and the flash people get to bring their kids, if they need to. This bar had generally decided that it was aiming for well-heeled, beer-snob singles who were looking to hook up in an unintimidating after-work scene. The waitresses were simply policing, in singularly unimaginative ways, that marketing decision.
But they needn't have pretended that they were concerned for the child. "It can get kinda rowdy here," they said, as they drove out the Clown-family. No, you bastards, you don't give a fuck about the child except inasfar as you figure she'll make your life more difficult---because you and your manager are looking for the quickest buck.
Enough. I didn't punch them, I swear. And probably I should go to bed.
There's something to be said for numbers, if you don't have size. Barring the times I got attacked in Samoa where I was fighting back out of fear, the closest I've ever come to hitting someone was throwing a drink full of ice at a guy at a party in college. (He'd been trying to flirt all night, I'd been putting him off politely and getting drunker and drunker, and he finally appeared to decide I was drunk enough to not resist, and took me by the arm and tried to forcibly lead me back to my room. I threw my drink on him and told him off in great detail and high volume. While I've done stupid things drunk, one thing I don't do is become compliant.) But the only reason I did it was that I was in my own house, surrounded by thirty housemates -- if he got ugly about it, he was going down. Anyplace else, I wouldn't have thrown the drink -- just fled.
The advantage of size is big enough in the punching world that I really believe that for non-big people avoidance and weapons are the only ways to go.
The real question here, is Emerson a knife or a gun kind of guy?
135: People always pull the "worried about the child's safety" thing when they're telling you to rein your kid in or get it out of the way.
134: Okay, good then.
Since BG has already randomized this thread with her questions, I'm going to go with the flow and ask the parents here at the Mineshaft: I just had a kid (my first) last Friday, a week ago. Am I supposed to be getting this little sleep? Seriously, pretty much none. I've always heard about the sleep deprivation, but I'm starting to feel really troublingly bad, like completely desperate for sleep bad, like I could fly off the handle and hurt the kid or just up and leave my wife and new kid to try and get a hotel room to get some sleep bad. I mean I don't actually expect to do anything like that, but how the fuck long can this last? I'm really starting to feel desparate.
All things considered I am pretty happy to have the kid though, mostly since having a kid makes it now OKAY for me to cheat on my wife. Which is awesome, since she's got that whole "recovery period" thing going on.
Am I supposed to be getting this little sleep? Seriously, pretty much none. I've always heard about the sleep deprivation, but I'm starting to feel really troublingly bad, like completely desperate for sleep bad, like I could fly off the handle and hurt the kid or just up and leave my wife and new kid to try and get a hotel room to get some sleep bad.
I had a friend who just had a kid. She had the same experience, and said she just wishes someone had told her (a) that it was totally normal, and (b) it really does stop. She now constantly tells the newly pregnant about it. And me.
130: I had this girlfriend, let's call her the Antichrist, who once cuffed me so hard she ruptured my eardrum. She felt free to do this largely because she knew I wouldn't retaliate in kind, and I didn't, except to pin her to the ground to prevent any further damage. She did kick me in the mouth later, but that was after we'd broken up.
One thing that has gone undiscussed (unless I missed it): the legal ramifications of punching someone.
Example: Some guy is acting like a jerk, as in Becks' scenario. You punch him. The next day, you get a nice call from his attorney.
Probably won't happen if he was drunk out of his mind at the time, but the risk of getting sued is always in the back of my mind when the possibility of getting into a fight arises.
Err...the totally normal thing was your hypothetical reaction, which was substantially less Blue Velvet-ey than hers. But really, I should shut up, since there are actual parents here.
139: Yes, but this stage doesn't last long -- call it six weeks. I had remarkably easy kids (really remarkably easy) and I was tired to the point of hallucination in the first month. (That's less dramatic than it sounds like -- I just mean that I was thinking I saw things moving out of the corner of my eyes when there wasn't really anything there.)
It sucks, but they settle down into a more organized pattern pretty fast.
And congratulations!
Congratulations, Brock!!!
Yeah, it's awful the first few weeks. At one point I actually held the squalling PK up in front of me, a few inches from my face, and screamed "SHUT UP!!!!!!!" at him. Ahh, the memories.
It gets better, I swear. Also, I highly recommend sleeping with the baby, which at least saves you and the missus having to get out of bed.
#141: Chris Rock, in Bring the Pain: "I would never hit a woman. Never, never, NEVER hit a woman. But I'll shake the shit out of 'em!"
Re. "it does get better," this is the key to the first few years. Everything they're doing that drives you crazy? They'll totally stop doing shortly after you figure out a good way of coping with it. The up side is that the annoying behavior stops; the down side, of course, is that as soon as you figure out how to manage, the rules change. Again.
I just had a kid (my first) last Friday, a week ago. Am I supposed to be getting this little sleep?
Any reason your kid isn't sleeping? Colic or anything? What worked for me was bringing them into the bed. I'd sleep on my side, and put them next to me againt my chest. Both my daughters loved it, and would sleep for hours that way.
I dunno, BG, I'm inclined to heed your own warning bells on this one. It' s not like the job of a lifetime in front of you -- sure, it could be lucrative; sure, it could even be a good fit for you. But it's not (based on what I recall you saying about your volunteer work on health care access issues) something that really seems to jibe with your personal interests.
Lots of good jobs can be had by networking. And there's no reason not to network from your WF cashier's perch. But to me the pushiness + the snobbishness + the ambiguity over romantic interest + your own radar = Not Worth Pursuing.
That said, if you do decide to pursue, I agree with the above. Don't put your home address on your resume; get (another) fake/shell e-mail; and definitely do more research before you go. Including asking him who else will be present for an interview. Because the "it's a small company" combined with "Sure, you can send it to info@company but it's BETTER if you send it to me" is a loud warning bell to me.
The trick is triage. All the kid needs at this point is food, warmth (or, this time of year, coolth), cuddling, and to be clean enough not to be getting rashes. DOing anything at all else beyond that is extra, and can be dispensed with.
139: For us it was three months, but we have twins, so YMMV. The first time I slept for three hours straight at the end of that period was second only to the birth itself as the happiest event of my life.
Congrats anyhow. Being a daddy is pretty fucking awesome.
What LB said. Also, in all seriousness, if the baby is squalling and you feel you're losing your mind, it is okay to put it down and walk away long enough to calm down and not shout at it. It's not going to die if you take a short breather.
"I would never hit a woman. Never, never, NEVER hit a woman.
Screw that. If a woman is hitting you in the head hard enough to rupture an eardrum, hit back. But not in the face. Gut, knock the wind out of her. Doesn't leave a mark.
Right. I remember being alone in the house with Sally, and feeling guilty about taking a shit while she cried. This was nuts of me. Letting them cry for ten minutes or so, if you really need a break, will not hurt the baby.
Jesus, speaking of, the other day I went to take a shit and PK followed me into the bathroom, and I was all, "would you *please* let me alone long enough to poop," and his feelings were hurt. I swear to god. I don't think I've been allowed to shower, piss, shit, or brush my teeth without interruption from either him or his father in almost six fucking years.
What LB said. Also, in all seriousness, if the baby is squalling and you feel you're losing your mind, it is okay to put it down and walk away long enough to calm down and not shout at it. It's not going to die if you take a short breather.
Exactly. I've yet to see a kid who cried themselves to death.
Thanks all, that's what I needed to hear, I think. The kid's got some eating-related issues that are making feedings tough and time-consuming (and a two person affair). He actually does sleep a bit if on my (or wife's) chest, but a feeding schedule of 2 hours up/1 hour down just isn't working very well for me (or wife, honestly). I find it really difficult to get more than 3 or four very-broken hours of sleep, overall. Which worked okay for 3-4 nights, but has since just been getting rough. Plus wife has inexplicably started snoring like a horse. (Do they snore? If, not, well... she snores badly.) Hopefully that will clear up but it's making it tough to me to get any good sleep at all. Maybe it's totally normal and I'm just a prissy, whiny, weak person. But I am breaking down. Note to terrorists: if you ever kidnap Brock Landers, sleep-deprivation will do just fine for getting me to do or say whatever you want. No need to start ripping out my fingernails or anything.
Well, here's the thing: do you need to be up for *two hours* to feed him? PK was nursing for 45 minutes at a stretch initially, and I was going nuts, and the lactation consultant told me I was fucking insane and that twenty minutes would do it. Obviously I don't know what the problems are, but if they're not serious enough to require hospitalization, surely the two of you can do the majority of the nursing in half an hour, ish, and then trade off getting *two* hours of sleep at a stretch while the other parent holds Mr. Squally in another room?
If it's really wearing you down, and if you can afford it, consider hiring a doula for an overnight. One decent night's sleep can make a huge difference.
To clarify, he seemed fairly creepy the first time. The second time much less so.
I am very interested in health access and universal health coverage. A big part of that is motivated by social justice considerations. I also think that a universal system would be a much better system for almost everyone. In the short-term, though, I have health issues of my own and really good private insurance would make life much better.
I never thought of myself as an investment banker, but Warren Buffet *was* my childhood hero. I read Peter Lynch's book and wanted to be a mutual fund manager. I like equity research and financial statements.
I like both academic/ intellectual stuff and business stuff. What I really liek is being able to jump between both worlds. That's one of the reasons that I was interested in fundraising/development for educational and cultural institutions.
I'm not smart enough to really hack it in an academic world, and I get lonely and depressed doing research, but I'm too smart in the clever/creative way to be a total drone. I do, however, have a remarkably good memory and a knack for personal details. I'm like a GWB with a conscience and a bit more curiousity with left-leaning political views.
Did I ever mention here that my intellectual hero is Keynes? Part of what I loved about him was that he succeeded in academia, government administration, business, and he was involved in teh arts (though the true literary types, i.e., Virginia Woolf, didn't quite like him.
Also - Becks, good job punching the guy, since in a metaphysical sense he deserved it. But I second all those people who say that punching an unknown person can be really fucking dangerous, unless you are well-equipped to defend yourself. You don't just need to worry about them punching back, you need to worry about things like knives and guns, etc., that the sort of degenerate assholes who deserve punching are prone to carrying around in this day and age. Getting punched is bad; getting stuck in the gut with a blade is orders of magnitude worse. Maybe this is a diminished concern at a concert (where there was presumably some security), but is an important general point.
BG- is this prospective job buy-side or sell-side? Those are whole different worlds, you know. You sound as if you're interested in buy-side work, but (and I confess I didn't read closely) I thought he was offering a sell-side job, no? Very, very different careers, different lifestyles, different personalities, etc.
158: Right. Something that really helps is formalizing time off -- the kid is absolutely not your problem from 10 to midnight, and then absolutely not it's mother's problem from midnight to two (allowing for breastfeeding, but you can work out a version of it.)
And please post or email for advice if you've got any specific questions. Most of mine comes down to "They'll live through almost anything," but we've got a bunch of parents around here, and between us we should know most things.
162: If those are your interests, I'd seriously consider working in the foundation world. Being a smart Ivy grad is a good way to get your foot in the door; there are lots of them on the East Coast; and you can combine policy knowledge, high-stakes finance, and ability to research and write well.
On the other hand, foundations can be have dysfunctional working atmospheres.
Re. breastfeeding, I did start PK with bottles about a month in, and he never had that nipple confusion crap they warn you about. And it sure made life a lot easier.
I also had Sally on the occasional bottle from pretty early, and nothing like nipple confusion happened -- breastfeeding went along like clockwork until she weaned herself at 51 weeks. (I swear she figured out she was going to get cut off, and wanted to make it look like her idea.)
Hm. I'm sorely tempted to put "nipple confusion" on the mommy-guilt list with "even a single beer during pregnancy is unsafe" and "daycare causes brain damage."
Yup, ages ago I was interested in buy-side work and tehn found tahtI wasn't any good at gettign it. I bombed a final interview at Put/nam and most of the other buy-side places don't hire straight out of school.
I couldn't imagine myself as a consultant, so I didn't really consider it. I didn't even apply for banking jobs. ever. I've gotten much better at schmoozing, though I sometiems think that I risk being mildly flirty when I do it, and that doesn't seem totally professional.
Sell-side work did not really interest me much. I was always vaguely queasy about sell-side research. I once had a job interview with Hen/ry Blod/gett doing equity research on Internet companies for Oppen/hei/mer. I think that his higher-ups nixed that, because he called me and tried to give me contacts and things.
It's just as well that I never worked for him, sicne he's teh dude who had to quit working in the Securities Industry after it turned out that he was dissing Internet companies in internal e-mails and praising them in his reports. That was when he was at Merr/ill Lyn/ch.
I actually met a guy the other day who was a research analyst at Fidelity which, in an ideal world, is really more my thing. He was also flabbergasted that I was discussing hedge fund fee structures and said that it was never too late to become an analyst. I think he was not shocked that a cashier knew somethign about business and prfoessions but that I was talking about money and finance in a Bread and Circus (the chain WF bought out). in Cambridge. It violated his image of "Cambridge" as an anti-business progressive sort of place.
But really, almost anything would be better than what I'm doing now.
I'll second gswift's advice. Having them sleep in the bed with you will earn you lots of extra sleep.
I don't have any advice but Congratulation, Brock!
Becks, don't be coy. You know you wanted to advise: "Hit the kid if he won't shut up!"
173 - Doh! Congratulations, Brock!
(Had either of my two brothers had turned out to be girls, they were going to be named "Brock".)
I'd threaten to punch Tim for his smart-ass comment but I know he'd like it too much.
I did slap my kid once, harder than I meant to and enough to leave a visible mark, when he was about one and his mother had been gone for 24 hrs. He cried for 45 minutes and refused the bottle.
It was pretty terrifying and I said "never again" and it never happened again. He's 33 now and pretty well healed.
I can see how someone who was really at the end of their rope would find themselves slipping again and again. I didn't, but I was at that turning point.
I've never heard of a girl named Brock. My brother and I were both supposed to be Amandas. Then Mom just threw up her hands and gave up.
The Beckster! I'm not sure why I'm enjoying picking at you today. You remind me of a man...
Yeah, don't you say that sometimes? Picking "on" means making fun of, whereas picking "at" means teasing or nettling. Like yanking someone's chain.
I have never said that. I use "on" for both.
I don't recall hearing anyone else say it either, but I may not have been paying close enough attention.
It's just because you're so young. Once you get old and have children, you'll understand.
Becks, I'm sure this is OT by now; but I can't believe you're even ashamed of this. Ok, I can; I used to have the same standards as you. Then real life intervened.
Once you described this 6" ogre staggering around bullying 5"2" women, I started thinking: "Cock-punch Him. He'll never see it coming. He'll never know where it came from."
There's a reason the crowd had your back. There's also a reason why punching someone in the head is a bad idea. (You'll hurt your hand)
179: What B said.
180: You're supposed to say, "What man?" And then I say, "A man with the power." And then we're off. Didn't you just quote this a few days ago?
Congratulations to both Becks and Brock.
I have seriously never heard anyone make that distinction before now.
Brock--congratulations! 157 is exactly right.
Becks--I think 161 is right. Clearly the guy had it coming, but starting a fight is easier than finishing it, and a little pride swallowing is better than a trip to the emergency room. I'm a bit worn around the edges, but I still think of myself of the tough professional soldier I was 15 years ago. Still, I would not have hit someone--even someone as deserving as the asshole you hit--if I could avoid it for the reasons described in 161. (but since it worked out OK--well done!)
Wow. I wish I used your conflict resolution techniques on Saturday night. Some bogans (that's an Australian term) that were standing behind me were being weird, creepy and invasive by touching my hair when I was just waiting in an icecream line. I wanted to punch them out but malls have too many cameras these days. I did threan to "snap them".
"Cock-punch Him. He'll never see it coming. He'll never know where it came from."
Doesn't always work if they're drunk enough to be anaesthetised. Some years ago I put my not inconsiderable weight into the knackers of a guy who was being similarly obnoxious at a concert and he just turned to his mate and said, "What's the matter with this place? Some cunt just kicked me in the balls."
My future wife then did a thing which involved sitting on the floor, hooking one foot round his ankles and applying the other one to his arse. That worked, but I wouldn't recommend it in all circumstances.
BG, that stuff about extra service, usw. is code for "We will own your soul. You will not have a life. Say goodbye to your friends now." That might be an acceptable trade for a short time. Or not. Your values, your call.
Why, for example, would someone prefer working as a banker to work as a corporate lawyer?
It is much more fun. It is good for the soul. Sell side jobs are much better than buy side, because the buy side, at the end of the day, have to admit that they are on the buy side because they don't have the balls to make the calls. Seriously. Being a salesman for a while is very good for developing a personality. Before I took on my current job, can you believe, I was a passive aggressive little jerk. Now I am an aggressive big jerk. See, big improvement. But really, there is much more joie-de-vivre among sell side bankers, because we all know that we are basically doing the same job as prostitutes but for more money (Doug Henwood's "Wall Street" contains the fascinating fact that according to Tracey Quan, we are very popular with prostitutes for this reason).
I think the stuff about "extra service" is his clumsy way of trying to get into your knickers and you should let him. Give a guy a break already.
In unrelated news, Emerson is correct; big blokes never start fights with one another because we know we are eggshells armed with hammers.
I threatened to kill someone's dog at the weekend, but that is such a regular occurrence that I wouldn't have mentioned it if it wasn't reasonably ontopic.
PK was nursing for 45 minutes at a stretch initially, and I was going nuts
Sounds like my younger one. Sure was cheery after all that eating though, and she had some serious chub.
I threatened to kill someone's dog at the weekend, but that is such a regular occurrence that I wouldn't have mentioned it if it wasn't reasonably ontopic.
If this happened more often, the world would be a better place.
162, and BG's question generally: While I'd caution against believing that anything is better than what you're doing now--it can always get worse--if things are that bad, and you have any sort of interest in the offer, then why not? The only reason not to would be if you really think he's actually that skeevy, in which cases this might be one of those cases in which things could be worse than they are now. But if he isn't ,you might find you like it, you'll be making more money, and if you hate it, you can always tough it out for a while and then quit. No one will blame you for not wanting to be a banker, and it might impress people in other lines of work. If you can get a positive recommendation out of it, that would be good, but if not, you can probably plausibly explain why to people in the non-profit world who tend to think investment bankers are raving maniacs and shits.
Along those lines, working for a psycho banker would be good training for a position at Harvard, according to stories I've heard from people there. On the other hand, if you're really interested in development for educational/cultural institutions, I could send you the SO's email address. She's done that for the past seven or eight years at the Bos/ton Chil/dren's Mus/eum and other institutions prior, and might have some advice.
If BG chooses to sell herself into white slavery, who is to say that she's wrong?
JL--Let me think about that. I'm less interested in cultural institutiosn than I was. I'm also interested in healthcare development for teaching hospitals. M/G/H has a superb shop, but the Bri/gha/m is also excellent.
Hospitals pay better and tend to have lower staff turnover. University development offices are also good.
Part of the problem is that I'm not sure that I trust my own judgment. Also I might chafe under people who think that all bankers are shits and be equally impatient with bankers who can't value the arts and more intellectual pursuits. This is something that I need to work on.
if some random woman walked up to me and decked me, I don't know what I'd do
She's flirting with you. Don't you know your Beefheart?
Mo Macarbie: the Stick makes everyone lame. The only people who have escaped its lame-vortex are Tony Levin and Brian Kenney Fresno.
I can't believe I missed the whole butch lesbian thread. Alas. I can add this - being a huge S-K fan, saddened by their dissolution, I was jazzed that NPR has an MP3 up of their last show at the 9:30 club in D.C.
And as a 5'3" lesbian who's often found myself battered by drunken frat boys at shows (PJ Harvey at the Warfield comes quickly to mind), thanks for doing what I've often wanted to do. Most of the time, I'm just pissed that some guy who apparently just discovered S-K ruins the show for long-time devoted fans. Do I ruin Nickelback concerts for you? Of course not. Now be nice.
(Alternatively? I've seen chicks step on the unwanted moshers foot between jumps. The next time he jumps, apparently it hurts. I suspect it can do real damage to the cartilage in the knee, but then, a drunken mosher who outweighs nearby girls by a good 70 lbs., elbows flying, routinely inflicts damage of his own.
Let me think about that.
Take your time. Since she's been working in a museum setting for some time, she's rather down on university development, even though it's what she once wanted to do. She thinks it wouldn't be interesting enough without the chance to work with museum programming. I'm sure you're right about working for health care institutions, though.
To be a bit more precise, I don't think if you were doing development for a cultural institution you'd be working under people who thought bankers were shits. Most of them are dealing with bankers and other denizens of the corporate and financial worlds, and some of them at a senior level have experience in that background, from what I've seen. Those more apt to hold such ideas are the more hardcore, in the trenches types on the art/culture side--and even then I'm not sure how widespread it is. Mostly they just can't conceive of doing it themselves.
194: That is chub. If I were't so lazy, I'd link you to one of PK at about the same age, covered in chocolate and grinning like the fat little Hans in that Warner Brothers Hansel & Gretel cartoon.
