I was once at a party where a pregnant woman confessed to me that she was terrified that her baby was going to be black, since that might, er, give away the fact that it was not her husband's child.
You know, my impression of you is probably influenced by the fact that I don't actually know you, just your internet persona, but I'm completely charmed that you ran into someone capable of leaving you nonplussed. I get the sense that it usually runs in the other direction.
I get the sense that it usually runs in the other direction.
Yes, usually. However, remember Ogged's impression upon meeting me? "The apostropher was another surprise, just because he seemed so damn normal. I guess I was expecting him to show up in a t-shirt with a gruesome scene pictured on the front, and the entire internet in his back pocket, but, in fact, he seems like the kind of guy you'd let babysit your kids. Seriously."
She knows the exact date of conception, but not who the daddy is?
3: Myself, I rarely make it to plussed.
Yeah, that struck me, too. 13 weeks & three days... do most women know the days without knowing the conception date?
If you have an ultrasound, they give you a gestational age in days -- I don't think it's all that exact for real, but the machine does give you a number. And you can also count from your last menstrual period, which is exact (wrong, but exact).
1: AC, did you hear the "This american life" story on this? It was wild-- apparently this kid was growing up as a white child when he gradually started to realize that something was different. Apparently his mom had just hoped that he'd be light-skinned enough to fit into their Italian family, and this got progressively less plausible as time went on.
Or, y'know, she had an eventful day.
8: That is a fantastic TAL. One of my favorites.
I knew a four-year old who thought her siblings' father was also her own biological father...while every damn stranger on the street could see that she would've had two white biological parents, but her siblings all would've had one black parent, one white parent.
That deception made me really uneasy. Especially because as a teenager she'll realize how OBVIOUS it was to total strangers.
8- No. Craziness. In my woman's case, she was assuming the delivery would decide matters. I pictured the husband standing in the delivery room getting progressively more and more suprised. Never did hear what happened with that.
12: I wonder if you could get an amnio and have your OB do a prenatal paternity test? It sounds possible, albeit unethical toward the possible father.
'You', of course, in 13, s/b 'One'.
13- why unethical towards the father? Aside from the original cheating or lying?
Because it'd ruin the plotline of My Two Dads?
"Her: Honey, I don't even know who the daddy is."
This could be interpreted as "Answer forthcoming",
daddy being the guy she choose to help raise it.
Birth control is for sissies
"Pussies" or "dicks," rather, I should say.
Why does everybody always ask if it's a boy or a girl?
19 - because it's boring to talk about someone else's fetus and there's no other defining characteristics?
I'll start inquiring about the baby's race, though. :)
a t-shirt that said "Birth control is for sissies."
Wow. Where do you buy a shirt like that?
I'd like to see a t-shirt advertising female condoms with the slogan "Birth control is for pussies."
19: What else is there to say besides congratulations? It's going to be a baby, no matter what. Naked, wrinkly, and whiny. Gender is pretty much the only other thing to ask about.
Some people don't want to find out, though.
I just found out an old friend of mine - due any day now - is naming her baby Katrina. Totally not kidding. I'm not sure what to make of this. Is it in bad taste or not? Are they just ostriches about current events?
To the best of my knowledge, it's not an old family name.
21: Judging by the Google results, you buy it from a maternity-wear store.
because it's boring to talk about someone else's fetus and there's no other defining characteristics?
Better to ask, "Has it reach viability yet?"
Better to ask, "Has it reach viability yet?"
Or "Did life begin at conception?"
23: I see no problem with naming a child Katrina. There are probably people who think it in poor taste, but it's still a beautiful name.
23: Does it matter, honestly? Do you think in 2016 people will be thinking 'wait a minute.. she's 10 years old.. and how long ago was that hurricane?'
19- Because gender determines EVERYTHING!!!!!!! [Insert feminist rant here.]
I mean, 9 years old. Damn off-by-one errors.
It would be in worse taste to start a band and call it "Katrina and the Waves".
27 - Even though it's so soon? It just seems like you're inviting a torrent of weird discussions about why you named your kid what you chose.
My parents gave me a bizarre name - I'm no stranger to explanations - but I would have pegged this couple as not wanting to get a rise out of anyone.
My parents gave me a bizarre name - I'm no stranger to explanations - but I would have pegged this couple as not wanting to get a rise out of anyone.
When your last name is "geebie", it's hard to resist.
No, yeah, it won't matter in ten years. I was just surprised.
Apo, did the pregnant lady properly admire your penis?
Re: "Katrina," that reminded me of the NameVoyager, which graphs usage of a name according to census records.
"Camille" actually increased in popularity after 1969, so go figure.
I have a cousin (22) names Katrina. She's a little put off by this whole hurricane problem.
But as to 23, no I don't think it's in poor taste. An odd choice, certainly, for right now, but not bad taste.
The Name Voyager seems to have data by decade rather than by year... not enough granularity to determine hurricanes' effect.
FWIW, in 1992 Andrew was the #5 name for baby boys; in 1993 it dropped to #10.
I always found it annoying when people asked the sex, but I admit I do it too. It's nicer, I think, to ask how the pregnant lady's doing, though.
Re. the father guessing the race of the child at birth: actually, at birth, it can be quite hard to tell. Babies' skin can darken with age.
'Andrew' isn't as distinctive a name as 'Katrina' or 'Camille.' But I wouldn't associate a Camille with the hurricane, and I expect that a Katrina years down the road would probably not remind people of a hurricane.
40: And you didn't plant a seed? Well, I guess we know what that makes you...
My nephew was born on 9/11. He's really bummed, though no one forgets his birthday.
I don't find it annoying when people ask, but as one of those parents-to-be who doesn't want to know the sex in advance, I can say I'm surprised how often I have to explain why not. (Because that's always the next question.)
We did know, but we decided not to tell anyone else. What's really surprising is how mad people get when you say that. Seriously: a stranger on the bus once scolded me about it. Weird.
not enough granularity to determine hurricanes' effect
Generally true, but Camille was 1969.
Also, if you hover the mouse at the very right, it'll give you by-year info for 2003, 2004, 2005. I tried that with "Katrina" (enjoying a mild resurgence after its heady 1980s reign and catastrophic decline in the 1990s).
46- we weren't going to tell anyone, but took so much flack that we caved. We held fast on not telling anyone the name though, which also got us in plenty of trouble.
Why does everybody always ask if it's a boy or a girl?
The only other conceivable (ha) questions are:
1. Was it an accident?
2. Does it have any extra chromosomes?
For some reason, people don't kinder to those queries.
Isn't that weird, how people feel *entitled* to know about *your* pregnancy? (Or, in your case, your wife's.) So obnoxious.
She's a little put off by this whole hurricane problem.
"Katrina Is a Bitch" stickers are popular down here in Mississippi, and presumably in Louisiana. I've been wondering how people named Katrina feel when they see those. Gotta be a bit dejecting after a while.
Depends how you feel about being called a bitch.
Babies' skin can darken with age.
Or lighten. At birth, ours was dark-skinned and black-haired and looked like his Okinawan grandfather. At 4-5 months, all the dark hair fell out, and when the hair came back he was a blond haole kid.
My sister's name is Katrina. Her husband's name is Andrew. I had never noticed the hurricane connection before (although I did tease her about giving Florida a good whack on the way by, before what happened to New Orleans made any such joking non-funny).
I don't think I'd wander up and ask a stranger if she was pregnant, but if it were a friend, I can't think of not asking if she knew the sex of the baby.
Not because I'm entitled to know, but it's a pretty big deal and what other questions are there to ask to show interest besides: How are you feeling? Do you know if it's going to be a boy or a girl? But in the case of the latter question: 'we decided to be surprised' is a perfectly fine answer.
Getting pissed off about a lack of answer would be stupid. But it seems it happens, especially if the parents know and don't want to share name information.
47: Fortunately, the SSA releases the top 1000 baby names every year, so you don't have to just compare the 1960s to the 1970s. Here's the data for Camille.
When someone tells you they're pregnant, the fun response is to say, "Who cares?"
All right, then. Not only is it possible for fraternal twins to have different fathers, it has actually happened. There's even a medical term for it: superfecundation. The classic case, which is discussed in Williams Obstetrics (1980), was recorded in 1810 by John Archer, the first doctor to receive a medical degree in the United States. According to Archer, a white woman who had sex with a black man and a white man within a short time subsequently gave birth to twins--one white, one mulatto. Other cases have been reported since.
If someone you meet won't tell you boy/girl, you can always just ask the position they used to conceive. Missionary is more liekly to get you a girl, doggy-style is more likely a boy. Also, ask the woman if she had an orgasm. Female orgasm= more liekly boy. No orgasm= more likely girl.
So no orgasm, rear entry or orgasm, missionary = even steven?
This sort of thing is important for couples who don't want to bias the selection procedure.
58: Shhhh, nobody tell this guy.. I think he actually believes the story!
It's just playing with the probabilities, ben, it's obviously not completely determinative. But if you're not looking to tip the scales one way or the other, then yeah, I guess the options you set out are reasonable.
Or maybe one of those two is the way to make an hermaphrodite, if that's your goal. I dunno.
I have a hard time thinking of any reason that female orgasm could make a difference.
No, wait, I mean.. aargh!
59: What kind of baby is more likely with buttsex?
We had three children in fairly quick succession and used to joke that we had no idea how it had happened. Some people got quite wound up at this, as though unplanned pregnancy was too serious a topic for levity. But you've gotta laugh, really.
We've established that: a lawyer.
I'm actually pretty sure buttsex isn't one of the preferred methods of conception.
Although that's another great question to ask a pregnant lady: "It didn't by chance result from buttsex, did it?"
yeah, but preferred or no ... what gender is more likely?
65- was this a genuine question or just a joke? Female orgams makes the vaginal canal more alkaline, which supposedly is somewhat better for the smaller, faster "male" sperm.
71: Seriously? So what could someone like me, who'd like a girl as well, do? Just suck it up and deal with all boys?
It was both. I have sort of a hard time believing that there are other external factors behind sex determination, since in practice what we see is remarkably close to a 50/50 distribution, and there should be exactly as many X-chromosome sperm as Y-chromosome sperm.
People, this determining the sex stuff is nonsense. It might make a very small statistical difference, but, meh.
OTOH, the idea of ogged with a raft of girls in tow makes me laugh.
It might make a very small statistical difference
Not the buttsex method. That one has a pretty large effect, as I understand it.
Brock sounds as if he knows more about this than I do, but I have the impression that while it's not impossible to affect the sex of a child through the kind of stuff he's talking about, you can only affect odds in an incredibly minor way. But I'd have to do some reading to be sure.
Look folks, I don't make the science, I just report it. Google it and you'll get about 500,000 hits that all say this exact same thing. My understanding is that the results are real, but -- as I said above -- FAR from determinative.
SCTM: I think people like you and I (who are physically incapable of not giving a woman an orgasm) are supposed to ice our balls before sex, or something like that. I don't know; I haven't actually looked at this stuff that closely. My wife and I didn't much care whether we had a boy or girl. And so of course we had a boy.
I read 74 as neil's confession that he has six daughters and no sons, and is now feeling despondent knowing his wife has been faking all these years.
And my only point in bringing any of this up was to suggest some good alternative questions to ask a pregnant woman, for those of you who cannot seem to imagine anything beyond "boy or girl?"
In my experience, faking my own orgasms leads to boys. Also, it makes them look like the guy down the street.
I'm just being a pill. They say that fighter pilots are way more likely to have girls--something about the amount of g's they pull (yeah, ha ha). Plus, there's that yam thing; didn't they find that there was some region in Africa that had a disproportionate number of boys, I think it was, and they traced it to a diet heavy in yams?
Translation of 75: "PK's a boy, and I sure as hell didn't get off."
59: Three pregnant women were in the doctor's office. The first one said "He was on top so it'll be a boy". The second said "I was on top so itll be a girl". The third woman started crying uncontollably and said "I'm going to have a puppy."
The name "Monica" held steady during the early Clinton years, after declining starting about 1880, but plummeted after 1998 or so.
Of course the effect is real. Don't you guys remember that scene from The Big Lebowski?
84: Baby, I always get off. I mean, really: what man would dare disappoint me?
Joke by Ezra Pound: As a prank his friends put a baby in bed with a drunken sailor and told him that it was his. He raised him as his own, but on his 18th birthday told the boy: "Son, all these years I've let you think that I'm you're father. But i'm not; I'm your mother. An Anglican bishop was your father."
Of course the effect is real. Don't you guys remember that scene from The Big Lebowski?
When the woman is swinging through the air nude in her studio, the baby usually becomes a lesbian.
"Google it and you'll get about 500,000 hits that all say this exact same thing".
Foolproof method there.
Ok, Apostropher: Why were you expelled?
An Anglican priest had fucked the sailor.
Whoops, I wasn't supposed to use orgasm as a verb, was I?
99- No, and now you are banned!
98: Indeed, do male non-primate animals have orgasms?
I see no reason to think that either females or males *wouldn't*, mind you.
101: Silly, a male orgasm, regardless of the animal, is an objective fact. There's white stuff. With a female orgasm, how could you possibly know?
There's supposed to be methods for getting a female cat in heat to have an orgasm, using a Q-tip. I don't know if the word "orgasm" really has a scientific definition though. Maybe something relating to the movement of certain muscles? That Dutch study with the people having sex in the MRI was inconclusive.
There's supposed to be methods for getting a female cat in heat to have an orgasm, using a Q-tip.
This is almost exactly the last thing I wanted to read while eating my dinner. Thanks.
My sister, when faced with total strangers ooohing and trying to touch her abdomen and saying things like 'Aw, you're pregnant' would stare at them and say 'Do you think so? I thought I was just getting fat!'
That tended to preclude any further questioning.
Ok, Apostropher: Why were you expelled?
I was caught drinking almost as soon as I got to the school, then was caught with my girlfriend in my room at 7 in the morning just before the end of the first semester. It was the (asshole) principal's first year there and he felt he needed to make some examples, and I effectively raised my hand and shouted "Me! Me! Me!"
Not my parents' proudest moment.
There are physical signs of a female orgasm after the fact, but they're mostly internal- if you could put the animal in an MRI you could tell pretty easily. (I'm referring to the paper where people had sex in an MRI so they could see where everything went.)
This also refers back to the A Softer World discussion.
physical signs of a female orgasm
Their bellybuttons pop out, like on a Stovall turkey.
Turkeys don't have bellybuttons, you mouth breather. Each one is made anew.
Hey, Apo, at least you graduated from somewhere. I don't get invited to any reunions. OTOH, I regularly see what antics some of my old friends are up to on the internets, so it's just like high school, only with more grey hair.
I don't know if the word "orgasm" really has a scientific definition though. Maybe something relating to the movement of certain muscles?
...
Do female non-primate animals orgasm?
...
101: Silly, a male orgasm, regardless of the animal, is an objective fact. There's white stuff. With a female orgasm, how could you possibly know?
All of this, and more, is discussed in fascinating detail in this book You can define an orgasm physically as a rhythmic contraction of the Kegel muscles. Give this definition, it is fairly easy to empirically determine if an animal is having an orgasm. You don’t need fancy equipment, you just need to be willing to stick your finger in unusual places.
Some researchers have speculated that the capacity to orgasm is spread widely throughout the mammals. However, this capacity is not realized it the wild for most animals. Orgasm in the wild has been confirmed for a variety of primates, though, including both apes and monkeys.
Now if you define the orgasm as a contraction of Kegel muscles, you separate it off from two other phenomena: the feeling of orgasm and ejaculation. In women, these occur separately all the time, to the extent that few women ejaculate, and many sex researchers still deny the existence of female ejaculation.
The interesting thing (for me anyway) is that muscle contraction, ejaculation, and the feeling of orgasm can all occur separately in men, too. Most men are familiar with muscle contraction without ejaculation: that’s what happens when you have already had sex several times that night. Supposedly, though, Sting-style Tantric practices can fully dissociate these phenomena, to the point where a man can experience multiple orgasms the way a woman does.
Is that TMI?
Isn't that weird, how people feel *entitled* to know about *your* pregnancy?
You bitch, being pregnant is social, pretty much from start to finish. I'm not denying that people can be rude, but it seems perfectly natural that people want to know about a pregnancy.
it seems perfectly natural that people want to know about a pregnancy.
But if pregnant people keep mentioning that it drives them nuts, maybe the perfectly natural thing could use some tasteful quelling.
While we're quelling, could we also squish the God-awful "we're pregnant" thing? She's pregnant. He's not. Confusion on this rather simple point suggests that the correct locution would be "we're getting an abortion because we're obviously not competent to raise a child."
It's like staring. I guess there are some cultures where it's okay to stare at people, but I percieve mine not to be one of these. People still stare, but we understand these people to be barbarians. We could imagine that our ideal society treats nosing around pregnant women the same way, and then work towards making it happen.
If you're just making a descriptive point about human curiosity then sure, no quibble, but I think the normative question is more interesting.
115 desperately needs a copy editor. Kotsko?
If you're just making a descriptive point about human curiosity
No, I think I'm really saying that the pregnancy belongs, just a little bit, to all your friends and acquaintances (probably not strangers, though I can see cultures where even they would feel entitled). It's a lot like marriage that way: you're changing their lives too, by changing the social fabric, so of course they're going to ask.
I'm not trying to trick you or anything bridgeplate, but are you pregnant?
It's a lot like marriage that way: you're changing their lives too, by changing the social fabric, so of course they're going to ask.
I think you're misdiscribing the social fabric in the US, or at least you're implying a stasis that I don't think is accurate.
I just realized I'm trying to pick fights tonight, so I'm going to be quiet now.
It's the cancer, isn't it? You miss it.
Actually, I agree, Ogged: pregnancy is a social event. And I think it's fabulous when people ask about it, or smile at pregnant women. I'm sure I've written about how I think it's great when people discipline other folks' children, in a nice way. ("Listen to your mama!" "Now, do what your father says.") I'm all about the it takes a village thing.
What I was kind of objecting to is when they get *angry* at you for wanting to keep something private between yourself and your partner--the baby's expected sex, or the names you're thinking of, whatever. But good-natured fussing or inquires or curiosity, I'm all for it.
If you want to fight, though, I'm sure we can find a subject.
Re. cats and orgasm: I don't know if you can induce orgasm, but you can induce *ovulation* in cats that way. They don't ovulate until they're penetrated, which (I think) is why cats in heat that aren't bred just go on yowling for days....
While cows do have orgasms, it's really something you want to avoid. They can weigh up to 1000 lb., and when they get excited and start thrashing around it can get pretty dodgy. Fortunately, they seldom notice.
Could this be an introvert/extrovert thing? And, if so, what are you extroverts doing on the internet? Shouldn't you be off rubbing bellies somewhere? And, get off my lawn.
Good gracious, 126 to anything but 125.
We extroverts like the internet because there's always someone to talk to.
I've been told that the cry that chickens make when they lay eggs is one of pleasure. But how could you be sure?
#106: You got kicked out for having a girl in your room? Where did you go, Bob Jones U? Or are you really seventy years old and you went to college in the 50's?
Ohhhhhh, sorry, my bad.
But still....
High school, GB.
I was sixteen years old.
many sex researchers still deny the existence of female ejaculation
Now how is this possible, given that so many women report having ejaculated?
Well, gynecologists used to deny the existence of menstrual cramps, too.
GB: In 1965 M*** D*****, now a well-known author, was expelled from Reed college for having sex. A friend of mine, his partner's roommate, was disciplined for not being offended that her roommate was having sex. Because, you see, the whole rationale of the rule was to avoid offense to bystanders, and her failure to be offended destroyed the rationale, and was even worse than the offense itself, which after all was the whole reason why the rule existed.
True story. The rule was changed within a year. The school had had an unofficial tolerance policy already, but M.D. basically had refused to play along. Probably Reed was far ahead of the curve on liberalization.
Unofficially, many faculty had sex with students in those days, including gay male faculty.
Apo was only sixteen. He quit having sex in his room when he rached maturity.
I deny the existence of female instantiation.
My mom got kicked out of college when they found out she'd gotten married.
137: Technically, it wasn't even my room. I was using a the room of a friend who was away for the night, because his window had the fire escape.
You got kicked out for having a girl in your room? Where did you go, Bob Jones U?
BYU still prohibits this. Opposite gender can't be in the apartment after 11 pm, and cannot go back into the bedrooms at all.
Another fun BYU factoid. Shorts of any kind were against the dress code on campus until 1991.
Shorts are now allowed, but must be long enough to reach the middle of the knee. Incidentally, denim shorts that come past your knee coupled with a tucked in shirt is an especially doofy look for both genders.
And Pensacola Christian, let me tell you.
Plus, there's that yam thing; didn't they find that there was some region in Africa that had a disproportionate number of boys, I think it was, and they traced it to a diet heavy in yams?
Seeing as that diets heavy in yams are pretty damned prevalent all over Africa, including, I believe, the entirety of Nigeria, I find this implausible. Maybe they've got a lot of boys because they're killing the baby girls.
Maybe they're using the yams as a bludgeon, though.
AFAIK, Karen Finley is childless, so that's one important datapoint missing.
Africa, including, I believe, the entirety of Nigeria,
Take that, all you people who say Nigeria is in Oceania! I defy you!
"Yam Bludgeon" would make an awesome band name.
148,
It would be a good band name. The best band name, however, would be Squawktopus.
#149,
You sir, are a genius. The more I say it out loud, the better it sounds.
136: Really? Not that I'm challenging you, but I went to Reed, and that's the sort of story that Reedies generally treat as sacred lore.
I agree with gswift. "Squawktopus" rawks.
BYU still prohibits this.
I was talking earlier tonight with a friend who goes to BYU; she was lamenting the difficulty she's had in organizing a camping trip, as co-ed excursions of that sort are less than encouraged. She's 22, and doesn't even live on campus.
They're good folk, but whenever the topic turns to dating or sex it's like having a conversation in middle school.
I remember thinking I would get away with more living off campus. Then I learned the only way to pull that off is to live with a bunch of like minded guys you grew up with, because the entire student body is a bunch of fucking narcs.
Tip for long Utah winters at the Y:
A couple of phone books against the wall makes a good target for indoor shooting with a .22.
Jesus McQ: Yeah, it's true. I knew about it because I was good friends with the roommate. The guy wasn't famous then, obviously, and all this happened his freshman year before anyone knew him. The couple disappeared from view immediately.
The year probably was late 1964 or early 1965, more likely 1964.
"A couple of phone books against the wall makes a good target for indoor shooting with a .22. "
Wholesome indoor sports not involving body fluid exchange are encouraged in Middle America.
Re: names. Some friends of mine recently successfully bred. His last name is Grey, her grandmother's first name was Jean. Enter their daughter, Alexandria Jean Grey.
My position on this is that I approve, but I like to tempt fate.
156: Also for crossbow shooting. A hobby of cartoonist Wally Wood back in his New Haven days.
Oh, it's not the sex of the baby, it's twins. And apparently it's more correlation than causation; I must have been misremembering some "how to have twins" thing on a mothering board or some such.
159: I don't get it.
156: Is it true that the Y has people stationed at the Provo bars, such as they are, to make sure students don't go in?
I assume NBarnes is referring to this Jean Grey.
149 would be absolutely correct, if only -- if only "Squawk" as part of titles were not a signature bit at MSNBC -- listening to such a band could only remind me of sitting at my desk while the tube blathers on about the "Squawk on the Street" and "Squawkbox" and cetera.
The best band name is The Menstrual Tramps. The second best band name is Jehovah's Hit List.
I've always been partial to The Hatters.
The Fattest Boy Scouts is the best band name ever.
(Also quite possibly the best band ever, although their full potential was unrealized. Ah... high school.)
Question for John Emerson: Did you know Peter Norton in college?
The NBarnes-Jean Grey thing reminds me that it can be a mistake to assume that people of a certain type know comic book characters as well as the ancients knew mythology. Many on a site like this do, of course, but some have no idea. I, on the other hand, can remember them effortlessly. After forty years I can still visualize particular panels in detail.
IDP: I remember him as the friend of the older brother of a friend. Never met him, but heard his name.
I wrote up my Reed college sex and drugs story in more detail at the link.
One more try at a link and then I quit.
Is it true that the Y has people stationed at the Provo bars, such as they are, to make sure students don't go in?
I think that one is myth. I was under 21 when I went there and never tried to go to a bar, but I can't imagine how they'd pull that off. Now that I think about it, where the hell were the bars in that town? Offhand I can think of one on Center Street, and that's about it. I remember the Provo bans on Sunday alcohol sales, as if Sunday drinking was especially sinful or something.
In NC, you still can't buy alcohol before noon on Sunday. It used to be 1:00, until we had an NFL team with games starting then. The Blue laws piss me off, but not as much as the fact that the church people get to park on the streets and block entire lanes during church hours. God, that chaps my ass.
The Blue laws piss me off, but not as much as the fact that the church people get to park on the streets and block entire lanes during church hours. God, that chaps my ass.
Doesn't that happen everywhere?
174 refers to the church-parking/lane-blocking, not the ass-chapping.
As far as I know, yes. And I can't explain why it rankles me so, but goddammit, they can ride a bus, carpool, or find a parking space just like everybody else.
Churches here have pretty good sized parking lots. Don't remember it happening back home, but that was godless Los Angeles, so perhaps not a representative sample.
Provo bans on Sunday alcohol sales
Isn't that statewide? So says this site, which seems to be from before the Olympics so maybe it wasn't true while I was there. State stores were closed on Sunday as I remember (this was also true in PA so it didn't bug me so bad).
What I never got was the near beer thing. It's not like near beer is less sinful, is it?
I've still got the joker in blue law misery poker: you can't buy alcohol to take home in Lubbock city limits at all.
I've never noticed the Sunday ban anywhere but Provo, so if it ever existed, it'd have to be fairly old.
The near beer thing is kind of ok because the prohibition is on "strong drinks", which is in modern times taken to mean alcoholic beverages. Enforcement of the Word of Wisdom is a bit selective. Every interview for "worthiness" like going to the temple, etc. involves questions about alcohol and smoking, but never does anyone get on your case about how meat is supposed to be eaten sparingly.
And dear god, no take home alcohol? I'm thinking that a lot of the people who emigrated here were people Europe was happy to get rid of.
There's 32A-2-103 6a. God I'm anal.
But if you mean, "You can't go to a bar on Sunday," that definitely wasn't true in Salt Lake. I don't remember whether they had to close the near-beer aisle on Sunday, but probably not.
In Lubbock you drive to the edge of town and bring stuff back. I hear that they're thinking of annexing the liquor stores so they can get the tax revenue. Not that they would legalize sales in the rest of the city, because that would really disrupt established business interests and make life easier for us sinners.
Speaking of parking, what do people think about people parking in front of other people's houses? I ask bc two people across the street from my home (of 11 years) don't like people (or maybe it's just me) parking in front of their houses. I only do it if I can't get into my own drive or in front of my own house for some reason (e.g., a flatbed parked in front of my house while getting another neighbor's classic car ready to load). Before they got all twitchy about it, I think I parked in front of either house, on average, once every two years or so.
One called me up once and asked me to move my car. I didn't until I was going somewhere. The other once left a note on my car asking me not to park in front of her house bc she couldn't move the strip of lawn by the sidewalk bc the cut grass would hit my car. Then, during winter, she called me up and reminded me that I'd agreed (?!?) not to park in front of my house in the winter bco ice on their sloped driveway (which the two women share) which is across from where I park.
I have never before met people who thought they had any right to tell people not to park in front of their house. I know people tend to park in front of their own houses, if only for ease, but does anyone feel like no one else should park in front of their house?
Matt -- wouldn't the city annexing the liquor stores make the stores subject to the city's law which forbids sale of alcohol in the city? I'm confused.
181 -- your neighbors seem weird to me. I have known people to get unhappy about somebody habitually parking in front of their house but not so unhappy as to make an issue of it.
Parking in front of someone else's house occasionally is no big deal and ought to be tolerated by all parties. Parking in front of someone else's house with a high degree of regularity is different, and gives implicit consent to having your tires slashed. NTIWDTSOT.
You could start parking on their lawn instead. "But I thought that was the agreement!"
183 - To me, too. One is a middle aged divorced woman, the other a senior widow. I hate to say this (well, not really), but they seem like stereotypical harpies to me. The first woman's husband left as soon as the kids finished h.s. The second woman's husband died of his fifth heart attack. Not that she caused his heart attacks. I was sitting on my porch one day when he was still alive and saw him going behind a huge rhododendron (sp?) in the front yard. He's gardening, I thought. Then I saw smoke coming out of the rhododendron. Apparently, he took refuge in a large plant in order to smoke w/o the wife knowing. How that would be sufficient, I don't know; I'm sure he smelled like an ashtray.
Ninety percent of the time, I can park on the street in front of my house. The only time this isn't true is on weekend days, when there is a huge influx of shoppers to the Indo-Pak stores less than two blocks from here.
I admit to being a tiny bit put out when I can't park in front of my house, at a time when there are other parking spots nearby. My neighbors though, particularly the older ones, are a good deal more proprietary, and will protest if someone's car stays in front of their houses for any length of time. I have assumed that permit parking, which is common in Chicago, is easily extracted from craven aldermen, and which causes my block to be parked-up on weekends because of its being in place farther south of the main drag, comes from this sense of territory.
This seems largely unrelated to the notorious Chicago practice of holding shoveled-out parking spots with chair-and-plank barriers. There the justification seems to be you're preserving the work you've done for yourself. When you mark a shoveled parking spot in front of your house, we're talking serious ownership.
Neighbours like that are seriously creepy. I don't know what the conventions are in the US; in our street everybody parks as close to their house as they can and if they have to walk 20 metres, that's tough. Everybody seems to get on OK.
If this shows any sign of escalating, you should consider keeping a journal of incidents, mainly in case they decide to get litigious, but also to forestall this kind of thing.
182, I think the idea is to grandfather them in or something.
annie, the hell with your neighbors. Maybe it's OK to complain about people parking in front of your house if it means that you have to walk a long way, particularly if you have trouble walking (OK, the senior widow might get a pass here). Or to complain about people parking in a space that you shoveled out of the snow. To complain about occasional legal parking just because it happens to be in front of your house is ridiculous.
There's a guy who used to work in the place I work, but he just got a new job. His girlfriend still works here, though, and he can't park at his new job, so he drives her to work, leaves the car there and takes the bus. Today I had to park a block away because there were no more spaces in front of the office.
I'm not sure whether it's annoying or not. If it was his girlfriend's car, of course it wouldn't be...
185 - Heh. Cannot do w/o damage to my car. Bco the slope of their yards, they have a stone wall along their frontage.
189 - I'd absolutely have no problem w/someone who had any kind of concerns about getting around. Senior lady's fine. I have never seen these two women park in front of their own houses. I wonder if they just don't like the way it looks. Senior lady has a large family that often comes over, esp. in summer (for pool parties). I have no problem w/her guests parking in front of my house.
188 - Actually, I started keeping notes of the younger woman's weirdness bco of an incident when I left my car parked in front of her house overnight. I parked it there for what I thought would be about a 1/2 hour. I hadn't been feeling well that day and started feeling worse, so I didn't go out again after all that day. The next day, my driver's side mirror was smashed.
I ? public transportation.
I think we've all got a proximity propriety notion somewhere, we just have different thresholds, depending on what we're used to, and what our other social beliefs amount to. Parking attitudes are a clue about social feeling in general.
The next day, my driver's side mirror was smashed.
That's different even from angry notes. You can't be sure it was her, of course, but she might be seriously disturbed. You might have called the police with your suspicions, but they might not have taken it seriously. If you find you've changed your behavior to avoid her spot, so that this violence will have achieved its goals, that's depressing.
194 - I don't know that it was her, and it's hard to think otherwise, so I suppose I should keep an open mind about it. I have changed my behavior in that I have never parked there again, never will and tell visitors not to park there.
Her notes and conversation have not been angry. IANAPsychologist, but her approach strikes me as very passive-aggressive.
I understand, but still wouldn't want to reward that kind of behavior if I believed it was her. Judging from the scene outside the cats in the window, your neighborhood's a bit less dense than mine, but that may be a misleading impression.
196 - The neighborhood is pretty much your average middle class suburban neighborhood. We plan to build a garage shortly (bc the old one's so beat we don't park our cars in it, not bco this lady), so this should be less and less of an issue.
You're right about not rewarding that behavior, but I also don't want to park there and get more damage done. Even though it takes little effort to park elsewhere, it does rankle. The passive-aggressive thing is also very annoying.
I've seen the neighborhood and don't remember much. "Average middle class" sounds about right.
Hi, Annie,
Yeah, suburban neighborhoods can be weird about people parking in the street, period. Freaks.
I don't know what the conventions are in the US; in our street everybody parks as close to their house as they can and if they have to walk 20 metres, that's tough.
Yeah, that's my experience here and it was the same in grad school city. Another vote for cities over everything else: people just accept that they have to fucking share.
Annie, you have remarkable restraint. I would be inclined to park in front of her house regularly and deliberately, with a motion-triggered video camera set to watch the car.
198 - Hi, John. I'm tempted to make a joke about how my neighborhood's middle class status took a dip during your stay here, but I'm not coming up with anything.
199 - Yeah, why can't we all just get along?
201 - My husband and I have joked about doing just that: setting up a 'Joanne-cam' to catch her slithering down her driveway under cover of darkness, wielding a vacuum attachment or some household implement of that ilk, and catching her in the act of vandalizing my car.
On that note, I have to go get my nails done.
I've heard of a place in New York with unrestricted parking -- you can park a car and leave it there as long as you want -- where one of the residents unscrewed the license plate from a car that was parked in front of her building, reported it to the police as an abandoned car, and had it towed.
202: It would be funnier if you waited in the car trunk and popped out when you heard glass breaking.
203: The very conservative elderly gentleman who lives around the corner from me was out walking his dog this morning while I was fretting over whose car it was parked in front of my house--because the movers needed to park the truck there. Elderly gent suggested I call the city and have the car towed. I told him that, having had my own car towed a week ago, I wasn't particularly inclined to do that, and that anyway the car wasn't illegally parked.
Luckily, however, the owner of the car, who apparently lives on the next block, had to leave for work 20 minutes later.
Re: Blue Laws
In Massachusetts you can't buy alcohol before noon on Sunday. Until quite recently it was banned completely.
When I was a little kid, the malls were not allowed to open on Sundays except during teh Christmas shopping period just after Thanksgiving.
Unlike, apo, I am currently enamored of teh Blue Laws. Under Massachusetts law, hourly employees have to get paid time and a half on Sundays.
204 - Thing is, my car's old enough that it doesn't have a pop the trunk safety lever inside the trunk. Although it is a hatchback, so I could put the back seat down and crawl out at her that way.
198 - Hi, John. I'm tempted to make a joke about how my neighborhood's middle class status took a dip during your stay here, but I'm not coming up with anything.
How about this:
[joke]
198: Well John, my neighborhood's middle class status sure took a dip during your stay here.
BUUUURN!!!
[/joke]
Blue laws: In Austin you can't buy alcohol after 9 PM Saturday. I found this out the hard way by going to stock up mid-party. Yet this is the same city that has a drive-through liquor store.
Neighbors: We don't have much of a problem with parking conflicts, but we have a HUGE problem with people leaving junk under our bushes and on our curb. People have dumped furniture, broken microwaves, stereo speakers, childrens' toys.. it's insane. We figured it was either because our yard used to be overgrown or because the bushes partially block the view from the street.. but seriously, who sneaks over to their neighbor's house and dumps a microwave in their yard in the dead of night?
if you waited in the car trunk
That gets dull. Buy a trunk monkey.
208 - I was hoping to come up w/something a little more nuanced.
210 - If we ever go through w/the Joanne-cam, we'll go w/the shotgun-toting trunk monkey.