As someone with a soft spot for the McCain tough-guy image, it's been painful for me to come to the realization that he's such a dick.
You know, I like the bluff honest tough guy image as much as anyone, but that broke for me when he came sniveling back to Bush's side after the 2000 South Carolina primary. People do what they have to do, but if you let someone treat you like that and continue to act personally loyal to them, you may be all sorts of things but tough isn't one of them.
While I have great respect for McCain for his service, esp. as a POW, I have never liked him as a pol. The "straight talk" has BS from the beginning.
"I'd just commit suicide. I mean, those Diebold guys have been telling us everything's under control for years now."
Excuse me for making a really petty and puerile remark:
John, grow the fuck up. "I'll committ suicide, ha ha ha"? Thoughtful political analysis there. Jerk.
While I don't think this joke is actually that bad qua joke, it does, or should, do serious damage (among the wonky) to McCain's credibility as a moderate, cross-the-aisle guy.
9: Except nothing will. That storyline is just tattooed across the forehead of every member of the Washington media, apparently.
Worrying about McCain now is crazy. Personally, I don't think he'll get the nomination. If for no other reason, he'll be dinged for his age.
While I don't think this joke is actually that bad qua joke, it does, or should, do serious damage (among the wonky) to McCain's credibility as a moderate, cross-the-aisle guy.
Two years of sucking heartily on the cock of the far right has not done serious damage to his credibility as a moderate, cross-the-aisle guy. Brokering an agreement to legalize torture and scuttle habeas corpus has not done serious damage to his credibility as a moderate, cross-the-aisle guy. For fuck's sake, legalizing torture hasn't done serious damage to his credibility as an opponent of torture.
12. Somehow- his stature of being a victim of torture has given him a pass on this. Sad.
1: And this. They're just dropping like flies, aren't they?
well, if we take the Senate, then he's either an ex-Senator or he's a flip-flopper. Win-Win.
Yeah, I heard him give a really rousing commencement speech back in 2005, where he condemned Abu Ghraib and took it seriously, back when pretty much everyone else on that side of the aisle was either denying it happened altogether, or saying it was just harmless frat pranks. For a few minutes, during the speech, he almost took me in.
But not for long. Partly 'cause of what B said above, about his craven pandering to the exact same Rovians who smeared his own adopted child.
And whatever doubts I had about him have been amply confirmed by his role in facilitating the Omnibus Torture and Tyranny Act of 2006.
For me, he's toast. And I think lots of other people will find their own reasons to dislike him in 2008--too old, too moderate on some social issues, not religious enough.
Really, the only people still enamored of him are the D.C. press corps.
too moderate on some social issues
Like what?
the only people still enamored of him are the D.C. press corps
I don't think this is true. The country is filled with people who only pay passing attention to politics and who totally buy his bipartisan charade.
Like what?
Probably none in reality, but the perception among a lot of hard-core conservatives is that he's not reliably on their side.
from wikipedia:
"he voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment, reaffirming his attempt to position himself as a political moderate...McCain has criticized conservatives like Rush Limbaugh for not supporting more lenient immigration laws. They in turn have criticized McCain for being a liberal on this issue."
I'm not saying McCain is genuinely moderate, just that he is not as much of a barbaric monster as is typical on the right these days.
And, in addition, as teofilo says, there is some genuine distrust of him from the hard-core.
18: His genuinely full-throated attack on the Christian right in 2000 has something to do with that. Six years of desperate backpaddling doesn't seem to have mended fences.
McCain's pandering has included speaking at a right-wing University - and, really, who the fuck cares? McCain was the biggest name fighting Bush's torture stance, even if he barely pushed it back. My impression is that his name was in the papers more so than Reid or Pelosi. Seriously, make the case that McCain deserves significantly less credit on torture than anyone else. The Dems votes were for show. They didn't fight the amendment any more than McCain did (although I do think they will fight harder if they get a majority).
And as for his support of Bush - that's politics. Politics does not support idealists, and I'm not certain it should. We have parties, and any savvy pol knows that the strength of party is greater and more important than the individuals, and the person who remembers that might see some long-term gain. John Wayne wouldn't have taken that shit, but he wasn't a politician trying to be President.
oh yeah--that's right, he actually did get off some good lines against Robertson and Falwell back in 2000. Yeah, that was kind of sweet, at the time.
But then to watch him crawling back. It just isn't pretty--I mean, the more you sort of admired the guy, the uglier it is to see him break under the torture. The Viet Cong couldn't get him to betray his ideals, but the Religious Right did.
Politics does not support idealists
This isn't really a true statement, but I think you know what I mean.
he voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment
And he voted for DOMA, and he enthusiastically supports state-level bans on gay marriage, and he said he would've signed the South Dakota abortion ban, and he was willing to promise Gary Bauer a pro-life litmus test for federal judges when George Bush wouldn't. Do not mistake him for a social moderate because of one vote against the FMA and one very personal (read: non-ideological) spat with the Christian Right over siding with his political opponent in a fight six years ago.
Just like other politicians: quick with the promises, but will he deliver?
20: He didn't vote for the Specter Amendment. That would have removed the habeus stripping portions of the bill; one of the reasons that the Democrats were so supine is that Reid agreed not to fillibuster in exchange for a vote on the Specter Amendment. That was the last, best shot at stopping the bill. Every Democrat but one voted for it; McCain did not. Take a look at the roll call.
My impression is that his name was in the papers more so than Reid or Pelosi.
This is not the same as actually -doing something-, mind you.
McCain was the biggest name fighting Bush's torture stance, even if he barely pushed it back
He didn't push it back at all. He gave Bush everything Bush wanted, as an exercise in branding himself a maverick, crossover moderate. Which he isn't. Really, McCain does not "stand up" to the right wing; he's a shill in a political three card monte game. It's like Hillary out proposing flagburning legislation. You know full well she doesn't believe it. She's just engaging in hypocritical posturing for a presidential run, and in both cases, to the detriment of their country. His only interest is in redefining the word "bipartisan" to mean everything and only those things that John McCain proposes.
HRC and McCain totally deserve one another. It kills me that they've become the biggest figures in politics through their astounding powers of disingenuousness.
sj--agreed.
This line of argument didn't come up because anyone here wanted to say that he's really a moderate.
The point was only that he seriously damaged his electability in the eyes of the right-wing base over the years.
And he has also done some things that will, or at least ought to, make him anathema to ordinary Americans, too, e.g. his extreme stance on abortion.
For all of these reasons, I nominate John McCain as the Republican candidate in 2008. I hope he'll get his clock cleaned.
The only thing that stands between him and a glorious defeat is--again--the delusions of the Broder/Brooks D.C. pundit group. If they decide to exempt him from scrutiny and give him the St. McCain treatment, then we might all be in trouble.
make the case that McCain deserves significantly less credit on torture than anyone else
Michael, the final version of the bill, which was utterly terrible in terms of removing any accountability for following the bill itself or other laws relevant to the context, is the one that came out of the President's "negotiations" with John McCain. John McCain, of course, voted for this bill. Shamefully, so did twelve Democratic Senators. Is your position that every Democratic Senator who didn't filibuster the bill (shamefully again, that's all of them) did as little as the man who helped write it and voted for it it to oppose it?
Does anyone remember that David Foster Wallace Rolling Stone piece on McCain back in 1999 or 2000? DFW was travelling around with him, and McCain almost had him going for a while -- but by the end, DFW had seen through him.
At least that's how I remember it. Ever since then -- i.e., virtually since I first heard of McCain -- I have only taken him into account insofar as other people are said to like him somehow.
Please, some more columns about how McCain is a serious grown-up moderate independent guy.
I'm sorry, I think I should have been clearer; I would never, ever vote for McCain. I do think he's done a good job managing his image, however.
Is your position that every Democratic Senator who didn't filibuster the bill (shamefully again, that's all of them) did as little as the man who helped write it and voted for it it to oppose it?
It's a complex calculus, and I'm not real sure about it. McCain showed a bit of resistance at first, and then at least claimed to have won some compromises. To people watching, and McCain has a lot of fans, it looks like Bush overreached and McCain pushed him back. Now, since McCain then voted for the bill, it gives the bill cred and makes the dems look weak. OTOH, the Dems never put up a struggle. They did the math and decided it was better, politically, to let this bill slide by as quielty as possible. I'm not sure either position is significantly better than the other. (Though I'll have no problems voting for the Dems even considering the position they took on this.)
s jones - Thanks, I had forgotten about those positions. I hope that hardcore social conservative stuff comes around to bite him in the ass, but I'm not optimistic about it.
What a great GOTV plan! can we get matching committments from other Republican senators?
Yeah keep on testing Becks, pushing boundaries -- one of these days you're going to take it a step too far.
I'm really not very experienced with horror flicks, but nevertheless this is fun.
I hope that hardcore social conservative stuff comes around to bite him in the ass, but I'm not optimistic about it.
Neither am I. My hope is that deep-seated, intractable, and mostly irrational loathing of McCain on the far right will kill his candidacy in the primaries, because I can't think of any Democratic candidate expected to run in '08 who's likely to beat him.
Yeah, I wish I could see some Dem laying some serious groundwork about now, but I'm just not. McCain's already on the ball.
I'm up to 28 on the find the horror film clue game.
I gave up at 23. I'm surprised I did that well, since I've hardly seen any of the movies.
the three kids dancing, and the woman with 2 childrins at the bottom are killing me.
The horror film game broke my browser.
McCain will be 72 in '08, or older than Reagan was when he ran. That plus his hair-trigger on military matters will kill him. You'll see stories about Alzheimer's, and Reagan with Alzheimer's, and our inability to tell if someone has Alzheimer's until he's actually dead, and the dramatic increase in the number incidence of Alzheimer's as age increases past seventy...and McCain will be done. If the Democrats are not complete morons, they're funding some papers by grad students right now about the possible effect of Alzheimer's on the Reagan Presidency.
It'll be Romney or (my suspicion) someone like Huckabee. I just can't imagine Rove letting go of the brass ring; the DLC sure as hell didn't, and I don't see him less power hungry.
Huckabee's such a lightweight he'd make a democrat look suave.
Huckabee's such a lightweight he'd make a democrat look suave.
You may be too young to remember this, but I remember another Republican they said that about. And he was a draft-dodging alcoholic cheerleader to boot.
Point. But Chucklebee doesn't have the resources of W. I would say he doesn't have the natural charisma, either, but perhaps I'm not the best judge of that, since I think W exhudes "punk".
37: And that's the profoundly disturbing thing. McCain has traction among centrist Democrats who don't really know the first fucking thing about him, thanks largely to people in the media who bought the maverick line that was tailored especially for them -- both know-nothing centrists and media types alike. The Democratic establishment has had at least since 2000 to get him in their sights and take him down. So finally someone comes out with evidence that McCain is not the aisle-bridging independent guy he's marketed to be, and it's fucking McCain himself. I picture the Democratic party frantically trying to play catch-up in the summer of 2008 and despair.
I try to do my part by periodically tweaking the resident McCain-fluffer on another board I frequent, but there really are a scary number of people who buy his bullshit.
I was one of those people in 2000. Gore was running an awful campaign (aided and abeted by the shrieking harpies of the Post and Times), and McCain was saying a lot of the things I wanted to hear. I even followed politics more than the average bear, and I still probably would have pulled the lever for McCain. He does a really good job (aided and abeted by the unmoored sycophants of the Post and Times) of projecting himself as someone whose compass is on straight -- you might not agree with him, but you know where he stands! He'll never lie to you! He wants to clean up Washington! Etcetera.
Of course, McCain-Feingold, which is at the root of a lot of that image, has proved itself to be a farce (and a farce that advantages the Republicans, to boot), but the shrieking unmoored harpy-sycophants will never report on that.
Part of it is voting on personality, in a world where most politicians have unappealing or null personalities. My other is that it was submissive wetting -- Democrats were recognizing McCain as top dog in the hopes that he'd protect them from even worse people.
Most straw polls show Guiliani to beat McCain in a primary. For that matter, Guiliani beats everyone. Replay of the NY Senate race in 08?
How did Rick Lazio come into this?
Most straw polls show Guiliani to beat McCain in a primary. For that matter, Guiliani beats everyone.
1. Remember the straw polls that showed Bill Frist winning the nomination? Neither does anyone else, because straw polls mean very, very little.
2. How many Republican primary-goers will vote for Giuliani once his rivals constantly remind them that he's pro-gay, pro-choice, and has dressed in drag at gay pride events?
53. I am not a God botherer, so I can't speak to that demographic. But the people I dorun with politically have no problem with Rudy's social liberalism.
Surely we can tie Bernie Kerik like a millwheel around Giuliani's neck?
The question is whether you can win nationally without the godbotherers, and I doubt it. I'd also think Rudy's inherent loathsomeness would be some sort of political problem for him, but I could be wrong about that.
56. What you say is true, their support is necessary. But their leaders have tasted power and like it. They will support a nominee who can win. Bernie Kerik is just one of many millstones for Rudy, but he is telegenic, and has that "have a beer with him" quality that appeals.
I have to think with so much unsavory history behind him, Giuliani would be easy pickings in a general election, and even easier in a GOP primary.
he is telegenic, and has that "have a beer with him" quality that appeals.
Mayor Memento Mori? Are we talking about the same death's head here?
59. Not in a "good hair" way, but in a "not misreading the teleprompter" way.
I'll give him that, he can talk on his feet.
Rudy Gee has in common with Johnny Mac a media image totally divorced from his real self. Strange.
A little weird -- I saw on MSNBC a few hours ago the headline, "Police Enter Houston Business, Confront Gunman" and misread Gunman as Giuliani -- thought the Houston in question was the street in Manhattan and wondered momentarily what was goin on.
62: I say we lock them in a room with knives and make them fight for the position of "Undeserving Darling of the Media." My money's on Rudy. He's younger, and he's mean as a snake.
But their leaders have tasted power and like it.
It's for precisely this reason that they wouldn't back Rudy. Their leaders are part of the Southern Republican infrastructure, and they're not turning power back over to neo-Rockefeller Republicans. Look at the DLC: lots of people think it's better to be top dog in the losing coalition than to be one of the many in the winning coalition.
Also, I would have voted for Guiliani for Senator, but not for President. A little too much Duce for a position with that much power.
Rudy Gee and Johnny Mac agreed to have a fight.
'Cause Johnny Mac said Rudy Gee was insufficiently Right.
Then came LB along, with keys, and locked them in a cage;
Gave each a knife, and left them there, that each might vent his rage.
"I know what you're thinking about," said Rudy Gee; "but it isn't so, nohow."
"Contrariwise," continued Johnny Mac, "if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
"I was thinking," Becks said very politely, "what's the best way out of this quagmire: it's gotten very dark. Would you tell me, please?"
But the little men only looked at each other and grinned.
No one can win the Republican primary without full support of the leadership of the Christian Right. Those are your main voters in the primaries. It's silly to talk about Guiliani. Or even McCain.
65. I really shouldn't speak to what goes on in the minds of the Evangelicals, cuz, I don't know. I do know that the Romney trial baloon is pretty flat, and the cupboard is pretty bare after that. Saw a Hagel bumper sticker, FWIW. Looked home made.
He is telegenic
Along with Chief Justice Rehnquist, ex-Sen. Slade Gorton, and GHW Bush he's one of the most lipless people around. Yoiu expect to see a forked tongue darting out, or for the lower jaw to unhinge in order while he swallows a whole chicken.
"Read my Lips" was an enormous tactical mistake, because it made people realize that GHW doesn't have any.
But their leaders have tasted power and like it. They will support a nominee who can win.
You've got to be kidding me. These people have been balkling at McCain, who genuinely is one of them. For god's sake, they're pissed at Bush for being insufficiently devoted to the cause. These are not the Tom Delay types who're happy to ride the right wing to truckloads of money. These are the true believers, who only got into the racket to ban abortion and sodomy and censor anything that even remotely resembles a sex act, and believe it or not they think they've been getting ripped off lately. They may put up with some amount of compromise - a Huckabee or a Romney instead of a Brownback - but they will never swallow an outright social liberal like Giuliani. They'd pull a Nader and run one of their own on the Constitution Party first.
They'd pull a Nader and run one of their own on the Constitution Party first.
God, I hope so!
a Huckabee or a Romney
I'm not sure the Christian Coalition types will send a Mormon to the nomination. They might, but deep down I doubt it.
So what sort of piano did you end up buying for your kid, LB?
Erm, we kinda lost track of the process. But we're looking into it again! Really!
70. I dunno- stuff like this makes me think twice about that.
http://www.thewideawakecafe.com/?p=1532