What a great role model for the gay community.
Actors pretty much trump athletes all the time. Fans may not see it, but it's true. There's a pretty low bound on `cool' for athletes qua athletes.
You totally want to kick his ass, don't you?
He's a rich professional athlete
So you admit that baseball is a sport.
Michael Jordan is about 175 times cuter than Derek Jeter.
So you admit that baseball is a sport.
Have I been in the "not a sport" camp? I thought I was in the "lame sport" camp. It's hard to keep track of all the ways I have your goat, SB.
Actors pretty much trump athletes all the time. Fans may not see it, but it's true.
I don't know what this means, other than that you're gay.
I honestly don't know what 3 means. Also, ogged, I'm a Yankee fan (boo! hiss!) but doesn't the fact of widespread hatred of the Yankees and Jeter (qua his affiliation with the Yankees) doesn't enter into this? What about the fact that in many years, though actually not this year, the value of his performance has been over-stated, and sometimes massively so?
For some reason, Jeter is about twice as cute with his hat on than without it. Maybe it's his head shape.
9: 3 was a comment on `But being an actor isn't as cool as being shortstop for the Yankees.' which is just not true.
What was I going to say here? Or yeah, fuck Derek Jeter.
3 was a comment on `But being an actor isn't as cool as being shortstop for the Yankees.' which is just not true.
For the folks for whom Derek Jeter is living the American Dream, I think it's definitely true. Would the average sports fan rather be a pro player or an actor? I don't think most of them can even conceive of being an actor. Insofar as they think about, they think of the trappings, but the craft itself is way prissy.
Jeeter is actually a far crappier shortstop than he gets credit for. People think he's good because he excels at making easy plays look difficult.
Yankees suck.
It's hard to keep track of all the ways I have your goat, SB.
In so many ways, and so often. Poor goat.
People are assuming that it's OK or even good to be part Irish-American. I don't understand that.
16: Among SABR-wonk types his nickname is Pasta Diver...for the number of times per game the announcer says "PAST a DIVING Jeter"
Scarlett Johansson dated Jeter? She is dead to me.
Rock on, Yankee haters.
Clearly, I underestimated the intensity of Yankee hatred.
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Would the average sports fan rather be a pro player or an actor?
Sports fan or not, wouldn't most people rather be a pro player than an actor? Being a star actor seems unrooted in ability in a way that being a sports star is not. Does anyone think, "Sylvester Stallone--now that's talent!"
I love people who say Jeter really sucks and the way he plays just fools everyone. You'd think that people who do this for a living- the GM and scouts who signed him to a huge contract, the managers and coaches who vote for all the Gold Gloves he keeps winning- would figure this out. But somehow they keep getting fooled and the only ones who really know what's going on are some people on the internets. Add hypnotist to his list of talents.
SP also thinks that Starbury is the best point guard in the NBA and that the Knicks are sure to win the title this year.
It's the comment boxes that are late: the main page indicates new comments, but when I click on a new comment, an older version of the comment box pops up.
Yeah, I confess I'm not a fan of arguments like 28. There's plenty of evidence, and some good reasons why, professional sports organizations do a pretty bad job of evaluating/rewarding/recognizing valuable players.
That's right, Marbury did win the MVP last year, didn't he? Boy does that Marbury have everyone fooled.
It's the comment boxes that are late
In that case, like Ben says, refesh the comment page. (And thanks for reporting back.)
Generally, I disfavor conventional wisdom arguments. But where the franchise has been quite successful over the years--including the specific years it is alleged to have been grossly overrating a player--I'm sympathetic to 28. Especially since nobody's been making an actual argument against Jeter's performance here.
That said, I do hate Derek Jeter.
sympathetic to comments like 28. And also 28 its very self.
sympathetic to comments like 28. And also 28 its very self.
I always found that number to be despicable.
Who hasn't heard of Tom Brady? He's definitely better looking than Jeter.
28: It's well, well, WELL documented that baseball is very much a "your lying eyes" kinda game. The differences in performance over 162 games are very difficult to accurately account for, especially in something like fielding. Jeter makes a fair number of spectacular looking plays, but the contention (born out by every measure of fielding yet devised, I add) is that his 'spectacular' plays are routine for a shortstop with better range, and he simply doesn't get to enough balls to be considered truly outstanding defensively. He's improved from early in his career, when he was objectively below average/terrible.
Basically, though, he's won three gold gloves for taking 6 extra steps to dive into the crowd (after catching the ball) 3 years ago in a regular season game vs. the Red Sox. (Couldn't find the YouTube)
Isn't baseball the most statistically driven sport in the world? Don't they have this fielding stat called "errors"?
They were also for the play in the postseason game in Oakland (2001?)
Let me just say, OT, that for all the hype about YouTube, their search function seems to suck. I want highlights of Jeter vs. Red Sox, so I search Jeter red sox or Jeter AND red sox and get no results.
39: You can only commit an error on a ball that you get to, and even then it's a judgment call. No one has been able to identify fielding value as well as they have with batting (or to a lesser extent, pitching), but there are any number of measures which do a better job of describing fielding performance than do errors and fielding percentage.
I really don't pay any attention to baseball whasoever, so it's possible that I've missed something, but what is there to hate about Derek Jeter, aside from the team he plays for?
40: Right, where he Jedi mind-tricked Jeremy Giambi into not sliding. (Ok, that's a bit too much hateration on my part...that remains one of the great plays of the past few years...)
"what is there to hate about Derek Jeter, aside from the team he plays for?"
what harm be there in hemlock, but for its cause?
42: Before this season, not much really. Though MYF status is plenty. But when the whole "Yankees Hate A-Rod" thing came out, at the same time everyone was talking about what a wonderful team leader Jeter is, I smelled a rat. (He wonderfully led the team to throw their most expensive player under the bus)
Damnit Ogged, I have work to do, and you have me talking about Derek Jeter
40: You could just get the DVDs of the 2004 ALCS. That series was, after all, one of the greatest events in human history.
43- As I said, hypnotist. Or Jedi. Anyway, that was another case of something not measured in statistics that's in his favor, playing your position according to how you're supposed to. He's the third cutoff man, most players don't bother getting in position to be the third cutoff man because 99.9% you never factor in the play, but he covers it all the time, so the one time it made a difference he was in the right place. Relatedly, I think he's also considered the best relay man in the game, something that only comes up once every game or two.
I'm not allowed to comment about sports, but wouldn't one's energies be better spent on the things that come up frequently than on those that come up infrequently?
42 - I suppose the bogus Gold Gloves and the John McCain-levels of worship among certain reporters he retracts aren't really his fault, but they still mean someone should kick him in the face. Plus what 45 said. Also, he's gone pasta diving with Scarlett Johannson, and I haven't.
Maybe we can still pull it out in Iraq, but boy was I wrong about this one.
52: Little known fact: Derek Jeter was the Congressional arm-twister responsible for most of the Democratic votes in favor of authorizing the use of force in Iraq.
It pains me to say this, but while Jeter's fielding may be over-praised, he is one hell of an ballplayer. .317 .388 .463 is an outstandinf career line for a shortstop. Also, if there are such things as clutch hitters, he is one.
55: baa's right, and for a Red Sox fan, to type that had to have been truly painful. I'm here for you, man.
54 - Oh, sure, but ignoring the fact that Jeter gets to spend evenings with beautiful actresses on top of a pile of hundred dollar bills, it's just maddening to hear people slobber all over him. He's got terrible range, particularly to his left. He more than makes up for it with his bat, he's The Captain, he'll be a Hall of Famer one day (which he probably even deserves). Non-Yankees fans get to hear incessant jabber about his intangibles (because shivving A-Rod shows respect for the game!) constantly. Does he need to get praise for the things he's bad at, too? If you're going to give him a Gold Glove, why not say that his translation of the Gorgias was particularly fine, and that he has a gold-plated nine-inch cock?
Jesus, if you have to try so hard to convince yourself, maybe it isn't true.
What I hate about Jeter is that he's not even the best shortstop on his team.
I was going to leave this alone until I read 28. It's just wrong on many levels. Nobody (at least nobody who knows baseball) actually thinks Derek Jeter sucks. However, coaches don't vote for Gold Glove; sports media do, and nobody is more rooted in "athletes are cool" than sports media are. Since Jeter is the coolest! he wins Gold Gloves despite not being very good on defense.
He is, however, an excellent, excellent hitter. But this is not the totality of why his contract is so big. He puts butts in seats in a way that nobody else not named Bonds does. That plus his skills equals high dollar value.
Also, 45 is correct.
But yeah, he does date many hot women and is the toast of the greatest city in the world and is rich and is very good at a job he likes and all that other stuff. Therefore, being Derek Jeter = the bee's knees.
Why are we talking about a baseball player at all? Sommer's right: Brady's clearly the man. And, obv., if he weren't physically hideous, LeBron would be the Ultimate Man.
Whatever, 60. James Bonds would be a shitty ballplayer.
`Would the average sports fan ...'
granted, but who cares about sports fans?
No, 55 does NOT get it exactly right. He's right about everything but the clutchness.
Derek Jeter's regular season career:
.317 .388 .463
Derek Jeter's post-season career:
.314 .384 .479
He's just a good hitter, all the time, whether it's the post-season or the regular season or the pre-season or coaching at the Boys and Girls Club. His clutchness is a result of what I would call opportunity bias.
Well, 62 settles it. Next 007 film takes place at Wrigley.
Heh. You're not living the American dream unless you are envied. How do people respond to envy? By noting that you just don't have the fucking fielding range of Omar Vizquel.
The stats in 64 don't actually settle the clutch questions, because it's possible that he's batting way under .314 in early-game, non-clutch situations, but way over in late game, clutch situations.
Managers do decide Gold Gloves. That said, fielding is hard to judge without numbers, and the fielding numbers we do have suggest that Jeter is an overrated fielder. Of course he's a great hitter for a shortstop. Jeter also inspires hate among many baseball fans for being the ultimate symbol of the "count the rings - baseball games are won by magical intangibles and heart and character" nonsense that many frontrunning Yankee fans like to believe in (although 6 straight seasons of not being able to bring home the title have thankfully dampened that).
Some dude on the Internet claims his career post-season line with RISP is .210/.355/.306, Ogged, but he's slept with Jessica Biel and we haven't.
it's possible that he's batting way under .314 in early-game, non-clutch situations, but way over in late game, clutch situations
It's certainly possible that Derek Jeter is a lazy bum who doesn't bother to try until after the 6th inning, I guess.
64: But this is a problem with the definition of clutch. Does it mean better in the postseason, or better in dicey situations in late innings anytime? I don't know his stats, but my perception is that he's great in the latter.
You know who else sucks in baseball despite being good at what he does? Fucking Scott Boras, that's who.
67: Plus, he's probably facing better pitching in the post season.
54 gets it exactly right, Jeter is a great ballplayer, and I think the Sawx would take him...but the hagiography of all thinks MFY is just lame and, like neoconservatism, must be struggled against at every instant.
72 - I was making claims only about myself, some dude on the Internet, and Ogged (whom I assume Ms. Biel would avoid, as he's a dirty Mexican).
Pwned. But Ogged's response indicates that he disdains baseball less than he pretends to. There's hope for your dark soul yet, amigo.
I just don't respect it in the morning, Jesus.
even now it's like no one has heard of Tom Brady.
Which is just as Tom Brady likes it. Another reason why he's the man.
Reason to believe I am not the man: that whole "tripped and fell down the front steps of the building while taking out the trash last night, smacking my face on the concrete" thing. Don't try this at home, kids.
What about Monsieur Lance Armstrong?
What about Monsieur Lance Armstrong?
I suspect he had help, and I wouldn't be surprised if other people suspected the same.
Plus, Armstrong is, I'm given to understand, considered something of an asshole in the world of cycling.
Ah, Jeter. He had a monster offensive year this year, and probably deserved the MVP, but I think with Jeter it's a matter of being both very good, and very over-rated.
I thought Americans liked having their heroes with a small dark side.
In terms of whether Amstrong ever doped or not, it's clear that it's impossible to prove.
Armstrong is not considered an asshole. I was speaking to a crepe maker on the street yesterday, and he considered Armstrong "un grand champion." Other professionals would use the same words.
What about Monsieur Lance Armstrong?
It's a valid point, though. A vital part of the modern American dream should be a good cameo in a Stiller/Wilson/Farrell/Vaughn vehicle. The best Jeter has gotten was a walk-on in an Adam Sandler movie. An unmemorable Sandler movie.
38 gets at some of the truth here -- Jeter's a fantastic hitter, and derivative of his fielding ability has been very high, even if the level of actual skill is still relatively low overall. I watched Jeter play Single-A ball for my hometown team when I was in middle school -- this was a team where the rising stars seemed to be the centerfielder Ruben Rivera and his cousin Mariano, who was a starting pitcher. Jeter was the shortstop, and he made about three errors a game -- he'd boot every other ball hit to him. And it didn't seem he hit very well either. He got booed, and everyone was mystified when he and the Riveras were quickly promoted to double-A.
And now, 15 years later, he's a sports demigod.
I cannot believe that we're still talking about baseball. Baseball.
We're talking about image and reality, Tim. (That's how I'm justifying it to myself, anyway.)
That's why I'm trying to change the subject, Tim.
I wanted to call this thread one of the worst ever, but I think I'm too much of a newbie.
79- Testicular cancer. Plus riding a bicycle is lame. France.
PS: There is an LA movie in the making. Matt Damon is playing him.
Late getting back in the game, but 67 made my head explode.
68: My bad, but I tend to think baseball managers are stupid, so I don't care that I was wrong. Sorry, they are, and nothing will change my mind on that. (How's that for channeling a right-wing pundit?)
Cheryl Crow said Armstrong got a lot of mileage out of his single testicle but that after about 12 or 15 miles she was usually ready to dismount.
A vital part of the modern American dream should be a good cameo in a Stiller/Wilson/Farrell/Vaughn vehicle.
This would be Lance Armstrong and Brett Favre. I fucking hate Favre.
Added bonus, he's a wolverine (kinda). Go blue!
Plus riding a bicycle is lame.
Riding a bicycle is fine. Considering it a sport, and especially a spectator sport is lame.
I fucking hate Favre.
I have to admire anyone who has taken that much Vicodin and can still speak in complete sentences. Admit it, Chopper, that's no small feat.
He was once one of the finest quarterbacks in the game. Now he throws more picks than a ninja with an Afro, but every damn sportscaster fellates him on air for three hours every time he's in a game. Plus, he goes to hottub parties with underage girls and he fucking cried on national television after he got nailed for stepping up to the Vic.
Grown men fellate him and he hottubs with underage girls? We must make this man our king.
Who hasn't heard of Tom Brady?
I'll bite. Who the fuck is Tom Brady? Sounds like a made-up name.
99: If, by some crazy twist of fate, you aren't kidding, Tom Brady is all about the braid groups and Artin groups, non-crossing partition lattices and associahedra. But I suspect you already knew that and are just being a wiseass.
Apo, I suspect that's one of those Iranian lies.
Clutch is, admittedly hard to measure. I am at times convinced it does not exist. Yet every time Jeter has a chance to torpedo the Sox, he does. Also, while some people here clearly hate baseball, and freedom, shortstop for the New York Yankees is clearly one of the top 5 "American Dream" occupations.
In basketball, there's really no one, because Jordan broke the mold, and because the hype machine on every post-Jordan star has been turned up to 11. I understand that Kevin Garnett is a monster that emeges from a basketball shell covered in green gatoraide, but his career to this point compares unfavorably to Alex English's.
Plus, he goes to hottub parties with underage girls
Don't you mean Mark Chmura?
Favre went to the same party. Chmura threw in the extra twist of raping one of the girls.
I understand that Kevin Garnett is a monster that emeges from a basketball shell covered in green gatoraide, but his career to this point compares unfavorably to Alex English's.
Ouch...
106: Are you sure? I'd never heard that before, and can't find any mention of Favre being there. This Court TV summary of the evening, for instance, has Chmura arriving alone, and later says "the party -- several high schoolers, [homeowner and host of the party] Gessert and Chmura -- moved outside to the hot tub." No doubt Favre did a lot of partying with Chmura, but if true, this one is news to me.
In 1997, Chmura refused to meet with United States President Bill Clinton at the White House following the Packers Super Bowl XXXI win. Chmura, a popular fixture at Republican fund-raisers, said at the time that he had lost respect for President Clinton over the Monica Lewinsky scandal and could not bear to shake his hand.
Awesome. Missed that little twist when the case happened.
Awesome. Missed that little twist when the case happened.
Yeah, I loved needling my brother, the Chomsky and Green Bay fan, about that at the time.
I was speaking to a crepe maker on the street yesterday, and he considered Armstrong "un grand champion."
The crepe maker is the new cab driver.
And the new capitalist is the cab driver?
anyone hating Brett Favre is banned!
108: Damnit, if I can't baselessly smear celebrities whom I disdain, then I'm moving to Canada!
Let me amend my statement above: Favre went tot he same parties, not necessarily the particular party in question. Rumors abound from Green Bay natives.